Hello, all and a new POTS Verizon problem:

My OP about the ability to receive incoming but not able to dial out or
have the calling party hear the called party was explained as a faulty
2-wire/4-wire interface issue which I understood. I had called Verizon
service and the phone was restored to normal operation after about 4
days. I don't know exactly what was done (if anything). Phone service
has been OK for about 2 weeks.

Last Sunday that same phone line displayed a new symptom - no dial tone
but the DTMF keypad produces audio and there is noise on the line (like
what you hear between entering the digits of a phone number).
Attempting to dial the problem phone number from a cell phone resulted
in a busy signal. It wasn't an off-hook situation as you could hear a
definite switching action when a phone on the problem line was taken off
hook. Ditto for any one of the 3 extensions sharing the line. This
morning, Monday, the phone line was operating as expected. Very
mysterious goings on here. Sincerely,
--
J. B. Wood e-mail:

On Mon, 8 Aug 2016 11:11:17 -0400, "J.B. Wood"
wrote:

Hello, all and a new POTS Verizon problem:

My OP about the ability to receive incoming but not able to dial out or
have the calling party hear the called party was explained as a faulty
2-wire/4-wire interface issue which I understood. I had called Verizon
service and the phone was restored to normal operation after about 4
days. I don't know exactly what was done (if anything). Phone service
has been OK for about 2 weeks.

Last Sunday that same phone line displayed a new symptom - no dial tone
but the DTMF keypad produces audio and there is noise on the line (like
what you hear between entering the digits of a phone number).
Attempting to dial the problem phone number from a cell phone resulted
in a busy signal. It wasn't an off-hook situation as you could hear a
definite switching action when a phone on the problem line was taken off
hook. Ditto for any one of the 3 extensions sharing the line. This
morning, Monday, the phone line was operating as expected. Very
mysterious goings on here. Sincerely,

Did it rain just before your phones stop working? I went through the
scenarios that you describe for years with AT&T before the tech. told
me the buried line had water in it and that they won't replace it. Had
to go to an internet phone service.

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In article ,
says...



Did it rain just before your phones stop working? I went through the
scenarios that you describe for years with AT&T before the tech. told
me the buried line had water in it and that they won't replace it. Had
to go to an internet phone service.

---

About 8 years ago I had a phone line that had a lot of noise on it.
They had to put in around 200 feet of burried line to get to my house.
They did that at no cost to me.

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On 08/09/2016 08:57 AM, Chuck wrote:

Did it rain just before your phones stop working? I went through the
scenarios that you describe for years with AT&T before the tech. told
me the buried line had water in it and that they won't replace it. Had
to go to an internet phone service.


No but it was awfully humid out. It still seems strange that the called
party (the problem phone line) would indicate the line in use (busy
signal) to the calling party when all phones on the problem line were
on-hook. As I previously stated, taking any one of the 3 phone
extensions off-hook results in a definite "click" like you get right
before the dial tone comes on. Of course in this case you never got a
dial tone. All DTMF pads appeared to operate as expected. Sincerely,


--
J. B. Wood e-mail:

On 8/9/2016 8:00 AM, J.B. Wood wrote:
On 08/09/2016 08:57 AM, Chuck wrote:

Did it rain just before your phones stop working? I went through the
scenarios that you describe for years with AT&T before the tech. told
me the buried line had water in it and that they won't replace it. Had
to go to an internet phone service.


No but it was awfully humid out. It still seems strange that the called
party (the problem phone line) would indicate the line in use (busy
signal) to the calling party when all phones on the problem line were
on-hook. As I previously stated, taking any one of the 3 phone
extensions off-hook results in a definite "click" like you get right
before the dial tone comes on. Of course in this case you never got a
dial tone. All DTMF pads appeared to operate as expected. Sincerely,


Perhaps, next time it happens, disconnect the phones one by one. You
might have an intermittent phone causing the problem.

In article , says...



No but it was awfully humid out. It still seems strange that the called
party (the problem phone line) would indicate the line in use (busy
signal) to the calling party when all phones on the problem line were
on-hook. As I previously stated, taking any one of the 3 phone
extensions off-hook results in a definite "click" like you get right
before the dial tone comes on. Of course in this case you never got a
dial tone. All DTMF pads appeared to operate as expected. Sincerely,

Try measuring the voltage on the phone line. I don't recall what it
is,but it will be a high DC voltage (still less than 100 volts DC) and
drop to a lower voltage (maybe around 8 to 10 volts) when you pick up
the phone and get a dial tone. When the phone rings there is about 100
volts on the line during the ring tones.

Then compare those voltages to another phone line in another house.





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On 08/09/2016 01:58 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:

Try measuring the voltage on the phone line. I don't recall what it
is,but it will be a high DC voltage (still less than 100 volts DC) and
drop to a lower voltage (maybe around 8 to 10 volts) when you pick up
the phone and get a dial tone. When the phone rings there is about 100
volts on the line during the ring tones.

Then compare those voltages to another phone line in another house.

Hello, and not a bad idea. IIRC the Western Electric/Bell standard uses
48 VDC (central office battery) and a ringing voltage of 85 VAC. So
on-hook we should see nominally 48 VDC and off-hook would be variable
depending on central office-to-subscriber set loop losses when DC line
current is drawn. So there might be a situation where there's enough
line current to operate the DTMF pad and produce noise in the receiver
but not enough current is being drawn to signal a normal off-hook
condition with the resulting dial tone. Just speculation. Sincerely,


--
J. B. Wood e-mail:

On 08/09/2016 12:40 PM, Bennett wrote:

Perhaps, next time it happens, disconnect the phones one by one. You
might have an intermittent phone causing the problem.

Already tried that when I had the problem last weekend. Pretty sure
it's not in any of the 4 phones (if I include the answering machine).
Sincerely,

--
J. B. Wood e-mail:

In article ,
Chuck wrote:

Did it rain just before your phones stop working? I went through the
scenarios that you describe for years with AT&T before the tech. told
me the buried line had water in it and that they won't replace it. Had
to go to an internet phone service.

That's unfortunate... and might well be an illegal action on their
part. If they're deliberately refusing to repair a tariff-regulated
landline service, in order to push customers onto a non-tariff-
regulated "information" service, it might be a violation of your
state's telecom regulations.

In cases like that, it sometimes helps to write a letter of complaint
to the state Public Utility Commission ombudsman (or woman).
Complain that AT&T has failed (and is now refusing) to perform
required maintenance on their regulated wiring, and that as a result
they have failed to provide you with acceptable voice-grade service
for which you have been paying.

CC: it to your AT&T Customer Service contact, and perhaps to your
Congresscritter and/or Senator.

Regulated utilities *hate* to have complaints about their service sent
to the public bodies that regulate 'em.

I agree with another posted in this thread - it's important to make
sure that your own phones are not part of the problem. More than
that, it's important to be certain that none of your "inside wiring"
is at fault, since this wiring typically is not any part of the
telco's responsibility.

What I always do, in cases like this, is completely disconnect the
inside wiring at the "demarc" block, and then plug a known-good phone
into the demarc. If the problem still exists (better: if you can
confirm it with two different phones and two different line cords)
then it puts the responsibility for the fault right back on the
telco's shoulders.

Tell the telco this, when you call: "I have confirmed that the
problem remains when all customer-premises wiring and equipment is
disconnected at the demarc."

On Tue, 9 Aug 2016 12:56:45 -0700, (Dave
Platt) wrote:

In article ,
Chuck wrote:

Did it rain just before your phones stop working? I went through the
scenarios that you describe for years with AT&T before the tech. told
me the buried line had water in it and that they won't replace it. Had
to go to an internet phone service.

That's unfortunate... and might well be an illegal action on their
part. If they're deliberately refusing to repair a tariff-regulated
landline service, in order to push customers onto a non-tariff-
regulated "information" service, it might be a violation of your
state's telecom regulations.

In cases like that, it sometimes helps to write a letter of complaint
to the state Public Utility Commission ombudsman (or woman).
Complain that AT&T has failed (and is now refusing) to perform
required maintenance on their regulated wiring, and that as a result
they have failed to provide you with acceptable voice-grade service
for which you have been paying.

CC: it to your AT&T Customer Service contact, and perhaps to your
Congresscritter and/or Senator.

Regulated utilities *hate* to have complaints about their service sent
to the public bodies that regulate 'em.

I agree with another posted in this thread - it's important to make
sure that your own phones are not part of the problem. More than
that, it's important to be certain that none of your "inside wiring"
is at fault, since this wiring typically is not any part of the
telco's responsibility.

What I always do, in cases like this, is completely disconnect the
inside wiring at the "demarc" block, and then plug a known-good phone
into the demarc. If the problem still exists (better: if you can
confirm it with two different phones and two different line cords)
then it puts the responsibility for the fault right back on the
telco's shoulders.

Tell the telco this, when you call: "I have confirmed that the
problem remains when all customer-premises wiring and equipment is
disconnected at the demarc."

Unfortunately, I live in OK.. Consumer protection here is
nonexistant. This state is controlled by corporate interests. A
fossil fuel billionare says it is commies that are against fracking
when peoples houses are being shaken apart by earthquakes.

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On Mon, 08 Aug 2016 11:11:17 -0400, J.B. Wood wrote:

Hello, all and a new POTS Verizon problem:

My OP about the ability to receive incoming but not able to dial out or
have the calling party hear the called party was explained as a faulty
2-wire/4-wire interface issue which I understood. I had called Verizon
service and the phone was restored to normal operation after about 4
days. I don't know exactly what was done (if anything). Phone service
has been OK for about 2 weeks.

Last Sunday that same phone line displayed a new symptom - no dial tone
but the DTMF keypad produces audio and there is noise on the line (like
what you hear between entering the digits of a phone number). Attempting
to dial the problem phone number from a cell phone resulted in a busy
signal. It wasn't an off-hook situation as you could hear a definite
switching action when a phone on the problem line was taken off hook.
Ditto for any one of the 3 extensions sharing the line. This morning,
Monday, the phone line was operating as expected. Very mysterious
goings on here. Sincerely,

Look for corrosion at the entry demarcation and clean.

is there any chance you have DSL?

More than 3 filters? Installed wrong?

Check for phone line sounds when you have the DSL modem on and off. If you hear sort of a static on the phone that goes away when the modem is turned off think of a DSL filter/splitter issue.

If you have more than one device in an area, us only one filter there.

You really need to plug a known good phone and cord into the NID outside the house. If you don't have one, ask for one to be installed.

The protector should essentially be open on both sides to ground.

The "protector" which is on the telco side can also cause issues. You might also have one inside if the wiring is old. It was the black thing where the phone terminated inside the house. It has solid carbon under the screws.

The real important test that's hard to do is effectively the resistance looking into your house with the NID disconnected. generally, it's easy to do some of the disconnections with the NID itself, but a blank cord will do what you have to do.

If you have a few phones, try to measure the resistance looking only into the house with the phones disconnected. That measurement should essentially be an open circuit. This is where you need to start looking for cob webs in the sockets. You can do this test with the phone connected but off hook.. I forget the magic mumbers your looking for. I think it's a few megohms max.

If overhead lines, then spiders in the box there too.

On 08/11/2016 10:53 PM, Ron D. wrote:

is there any chance you have DSL?

More than 3 filters? Installed wrong?

Check for phone line sounds when you have the DSL modem on and off.
If you hear sort of a static on the phone that goes away when the
modem is turned off think of a DSL filter/splitter issue.

If you have more than one device in an area, us only one filter
there.

You really need to plug a known good phone and cord into the NID
outside the house. If you don't have one, ask for one to be
installed.

The protector should essentially be open on both sides to ground.

The "protector" which is on the telco side can also cause issues.
You might also have one inside if the wiring is old. It was the
black thing where the phone terminated inside the house. It has
solid carbon under the screws.

The real important test that's hard to do is effectively the
resistance looking into your house with the NID disconnected.
generally, it's easy to do some of the disconnections with the NID
itself, but a blank cord will do what you have to do.

If you have a few phones, try to measure the resistance looking only
into the house with the phones disconnected. That measurement should
essentially be an open circuit. This is where you need to start
looking for cob webs in the sockets. You can do this test with the
phone connected but off hook. I forget the magic mumbers your
looking for. I think it's a few megohms max.

If overhead lines, then spiders in the box there too.

Hello, and no DSL. The rest of your points make technical sense. My
ca. early 1940s apartment building has a large grey wall-mounted W-E/Ma
Bell box in the laundry room with a punch-down terminal strip. The
house wiring from these terminals to units isn't the traditional
sheathed red-green-yellow-black but simply twisted pair (IOW just tip
and ring) like that used to connect to the outside plant. The
connections from the wall-mounted terminals in my unit and the
corresponding incoming phone line wires appear to be firmly punched-down
in the W-E terminal strip.

So, except for access to the laundry room terminal block and the
terminals in my unit there's really nothing else I can check either on
the outside of the building or elsewhere (which should be Verizon's
responsibility). Sincerely,

--
J. B. Wood e-mail:

In article ,
J.B. Wood wrote:

So, except for access to the laundry room terminal block and the
terminals in my unit there's really nothing else I can check either on
the outside of the building or elsewhere (which should be Verizon's
responsibility).

"Laundry room" rings a bell with me.

In a house we rented some decades ago, we had problems with line noise
on the phone, ring failures (the caller would hear a ring tone and
then an immediate disconnect) and other problems.

The problem turned out to be laundry-related, in a way. The line came
into the house in the kitchen, and was wired to one of the square
four-terminal line blocks before running up the wall to the phone.
This was located right next to the clothes washer.

It turned out that over the years, dirt and spiderwebs (and maybe some
soap dust) had gotten into the connection block, and build up on the
surfaces. When humidity was high (e.g. when we were doing laundry
with hot water) and the surfaces were cold (e.g. winter) moist air
would cause condensation inside the connection block, dampening the
surface contamination and creating a current leakage path.

It was bad enough that when the phone would try to ring for an
incoming call, enough current would flow to momentarily trigger the
central office's "off hook" detector, and the call would be
"answered"... and then drop out immediately.

The cure was straightforward: pop off the connection-block cover,
dust it out, scrub everything with a soft brush and some denatured
alcohol to remove the contaminants, dry thoroughly, close back up.
Problem gone.

I once had a similar problem, in which house moisture condensing
inside a Macintosh keyboard in a cold room would bridge the ADB "power
button" signal lines enough to cause the Mac to power itself on.
Cleaning and drying the PC board in that area, and then dabbing on a
thin layer of fingernail polish as a "conformal coating" fixed the
problem.

So, it might be worth checking your inside wiring and phones for any
places where cross-wire current leakage might occur. Clean, dry, and
if possible insulate against further contamination and moisture.

I totally agree with Dave's assessment. You really have no way of isolating your phones. Assume that the phones have a single demark point home-run point in your apartment, maybe you do.

Look at all of the jacks and clean them up. Look for signs of moisture.

if it happens again, check the laundry room. See how bad the "dew point" is.

Here http://protective.sherwin-williams.c...on-chart_f.pdf is a Dew point chart. You have temperature, relative humidity and surface temperature.

Once you calculate the dewpoint, the surface temperature should be higher than this. The surface being the punch down block surface.

While your in that box, arrange your wires so they have "drip loops" on them. You don't want water(moisture) traveling along wires and getting the terminal area wet.
Cleaning the area between your terminals should be sufficient for a while anyway if that's the problem.