| The Justice Department reached an agreement
| with GM over the faulty ignition switches. Prosecution
| is deferred and the GM execs promise to be goodie two
| shoes. http://preview.alturl.com/ctzff Over 100
| people died.
| I don't think Jeff Foxworthy or Larry the Cable Guy
| are running the Justice Department.
|

I'd forgotten about the GM issue. It's hardly
surprising these things happen when the executives
in charge have no liability. Even the companies
often find the deals to be profitable. If a company
cuts corners to save $100 million and gets fined
$20 million, with no arrests, then that seems to be
a good business plan.

On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 18:32:46 -0400, Mayayana wrote:

I'd forgotten about the GM issue. It's hardly
surprising these things happen when the executives
in charge have no liability. Even the companies
often find the deals to be profitable. If a company
cuts corners to save $100 million and gets fined
$20 million, with no arrests, then that seems to be
a good business plan.

Again, let's remember the laws and maximum fines are very
DIFFERENT for emissions laws versus for safety laws.

Different laws.
Different agencies.
Different penalties.

You could be arguing that we should make the laws more consistent
between SAFETY violations and EMISSIONS violations; but the fact
is they are very different - so - you can't really compare them
that way and be fair.

On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 17:32:46 -0500, Mayayana
wrote:

| The Justice Department reached an agreement
| with GM over the faulty ignition switches. Prosecution
| is deferred and the GM execs promise to be goodie two
| shoes. http://preview.alturl.com/ctzff Over 100
| people died.
| I don't think Jeff Foxworthy or Larry the Cable Guy
| are running the Justice Department.
|

I'd forgotten about the GM issue. It's hardly
surprising these things happen when the executives
in charge have no liability. Even the companies
often find the deals to be profitable. If a company
cuts corners to save $100 million and gets fined
$20 million, with no arrests, then that seems to be
a good business plan.

My dad had a 1976 Chevy pickup. It was one of those
with the gas tank outside of the rails. GM was supposed to
allow an extra $1000 as trade in value as part of a settlement
with the government. That deal smelled bad from the
beginning.


--
Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 16:04:25 -0500, Dean Hoffman wrote:

The Justice Department reached an agreement
with GM over the faulty ignition switches. Prosecution
is deferred and the GM execs promise to be goodie two
shoes. http://preview.alturl.com/ctzff Over 100
people died.
I don't think Jeff Foxworthy or Larry the Cable Guy
are running the Justice Department.

You have to keep in mind that there are DIFFERENT laws when
safety is involved (NHTSA) versus the environment (EPA).

The NY Times, I think it was, discussed the difference, which
essentially said that the EPA actually has more power to fine
them than does the NHTSA.

We should look up the details, but, my point is that the laws
and maximum penalties are totally DIFFERENT for safety violations
versus emissions violations.

Inexplicably, the emissions violation laws appear (at first
inspection) to be more stringent.

Go figure.

On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 00:19:10 +0000 (UTC), Ewald Böhm wrote:

My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions?

http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/docume...a-09-18-15.pdf

On Mon, 21 Sep 2015 22:05:54 -0700, Jack Black wrote:

My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions?

http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/docume...a-09-18-15.pdf

VW manufactured and installed software in the electronic control module
(ECM) of these vehicles that sensed when the behicle was being tested for
compliance with EPA emission standards. For ease of reference, the EPA is
calling this the "switch".

The "switch" senses whether the vehicle is being tested or not based on
various inputs including teh position of the steering wheel, vehicle speed,
the duration of the engine's operation, and barometric pressure.

These inputs precisely track the parameters of the federal test procedure
used for emission testing for EPA certification purposes. During EPA
emission testing, the vehicle's ECM ran software which produced compliant
emission results under and ECM calibration chart that VW referred to as the
"dyno calibration".

Jack Black wrote:

On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 00:19:10 +0000 (UTC), Ewald Böhm wrote:

My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for
emissions?

http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/docume...a-09-18-15.pdf

WOW, that's QUITE a document!! Thanks for the link!

Jon

On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 00:19:10 +0000, Ewald Böhm wrote:

Apparently Volkswagen/Audi cheated on the USA emissions tests

Apparently 11 million cars are affected!
Basically one in four cars in Europe also had the cheatware installed!

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/23/bu...r-scandal.html
"the company said that 11 million of its diesel cars worldwide
were equipped with software that was used to cheat on emissions tests."

On 9/22/2015 2:19 PM, Winston_Smith wrote:
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 00:19:10 +0000, Ewald Böhm wrote:

Apparently Volkswagen/Audi cheated on the USA emissions tests

Apparently 11 million cars are affected!
Basically one in four cars in Europe also had the cheatware installed!

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/23/bu...r-scandal.html
"the company said that 11 million of its diesel cars worldwide
were equipped with software that was used to cheat on emissions tests."


Boggles the mind. "Oh ****, we got caught"

Ewald Böhm wrote:

My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions?

How Did the System Work?
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...explainer.html

On 9/18/2015 8:19 PM, Ewald Böhm wrote:
Apparently Volkswagen/Audi cheated on the USA emissions tests since
2009 to 2015 by turning off the EGR to lower nitrogen oxide emissions
ONLY when the car was being tested for emissions.

REFERENCES:
http://blog.ucsusa.org/volkswagen-ca...cle-recall-887
http://www.engineering.com/AdvancedM...EPA-Tests.aspx
http://hothardware.com/news/vw-inten...-482k-vehicles
etc.

My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions?


It seems like everyone here is on a VW witch hunt.
I would expect VW to program it's black boxes to use the minimum fuel for a given situation.
If the car is on a dyno, there would be no wind resistance to push against so the fuel system *should* lower the fuel flow.
I'd expect the same behavior if I was rolling down a mountain grade. Sheeeesh!

| It seems like everyone here is on a VW witch hunt.

The VW executives admitted to the EPA that they were
scamming the tests. Try reading the news.

On 9/18/2015 8:19 PM, Ewald Böhm asked:
My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions?

From the NY Times: "The software could silently deduce that an inspection
was taking place based on the position of the steering wheel (cars hooked
up to emissions meters don’t make turns), the speed of the vehicle, how
long the engine had been running and barometric pressure."

Don. www.donwiss.com (e-mail link at home page bottom).

NoSpamForMe wrote:
On 9/18/2015 8:19 PM, Ewald Böhm wrote:
Apparently Volkswagen/Audi cheated on the USA emissions tests since
2009 to 2015 by turning off the EGR to lower nitrogen oxide emissions
ONLY when the car was being tested for emissions.

REFERENCES:
http://blog.ucsusa.org/volkswagen-ca...cle-recall-887
http://www.engineering.com/AdvancedM...EPA-Tests.aspx
http://hothardware.com/news/vw-inten...-482k-vehicles
etc.

My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for
emissions?

It seems like everyone here is on a VW witch hunt.
I would expect VW to program it's black boxes to use the minimum fuel
for a given situation. If the car is on a dyno, there would be no wind
resistance to push
against so the fuel system *should* lower the fuel flow. I'd expect
the same behavior if I was rolling down a mountain grade. Sheeeesh!

Wow! Cluelessness at it's best!

Bob F wrote:
NoSpamForMe wrote:
On 9/18/2015 8:19 PM, Ewald Böhm wrote:
Apparently Volkswagen/Audi cheated on the USA emissions tests since
2009 to 2015 by turning off the EGR to lower nitrogen oxide
emissions ONLY when the car was being tested for emissions.

REFERENCES:
http://blog.ucsusa.org/volkswagen-ca...cle-recall-887
http://www.engineering.com/AdvancedM...EPA-Tests.aspx
http://hothardware.com/news/vw-inten...-482k-vehicles
etc.

My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for
emissions?

It seems like everyone here is on a VW witch hunt.
I would expect VW to program it's black boxes to use the minimum fuel
for a given situation. If the car is on a dyno, there would be no
wind resistance to push
against so the fuel system *should* lower the fuel flow. I'd expect
the same behavior if I was rolling down a mountain grade. Sheeeesh!

Wow! Cluelessness at it's best!

Update 9/22: This morning VW announced that the cheating issue on diesel engines
is much more vast than initially expected. The company admitted to cheating on
11 million diesel engines worldwide.

Bob F wrote:
Bob F wrote:
NoSpamForMe wrote:
On 9/18/2015 8:19 PM, Ewald Böhm wrote:
Apparently Volkswagen/Audi cheated on the USA emissions tests since
2009 to 2015 by turning off the EGR to lower nitrogen oxide
emissions ONLY when the car was being tested for emissions.

REFERENCES:
http://blog.ucsusa.org/volkswagen-ca...cle-recall-887
http://www.engineering.com/AdvancedM...EPA-Tests.aspx
http://hothardware.com/news/vw-inten...-482k-vehicles
etc.

My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for
emissions?

It seems like everyone here is on a VW witch hunt.
I would expect VW to program it's black boxes to use the minimum fuel
for a given situation. If the car is on a dyno, there would be no
wind resistance to push
against so the fuel system *should* lower the fuel flow. I'd expect
the same behavior if I was rolling down a mountain grade. Sheeeesh!

Wow! Cluelessness at it's best!

Update 9/22: This morning VW announced that the cheating issue on diesel engines
is much more vast than initially expected. The company admitted to cheating on
11 million diesel engines worldwide.


Wonder about MB and BMW Diesel vehicles. I was looking at MB GLK-250
Diesel version when news broke out. Considering Diesel vehicle for next
new car purchase is on hold now. Also I am wondering about turbo charged
small engines on almost every cars, Ecoboost, Skyactive...,etc. Crap.

Wonder about MB and BMW Diesel vehicles. I was looking at MB GLK-250
Diesel version when news broke out. Considering Diesel vehicle for next
new car purchase is on hold now. Also I am wondering about turbo charged
small engines on almost every cars, Ecoboost, Skyactive...,etc. Crap.

I had a Mazda MX6 with a turbo. One was supposed to let the engine
idle for a minute before shutting it off to let the turbo wind down.
There might've been some cooling also.
An oil reservoir above the turbo with a flow restrictor would've
eliminated that requirement but that would've cost the manufacturer
money.


--
Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

Tony Hwang wrote:

Wonder about MB and BMW Diesel vehicles. I was looking at MB GLK-250
Diesel version when news broke out. Considering Diesel vehicle for next
new car purchase is on hold now. Also I am wondering about turbo charged
small engines on almost every cars, Ecoboost, Skyactive...,etc. Crap.

The MB and BMW diesels both use the exhaust fluid. That's not to say that
they aren't cheating something somewhere in the control system, just that
the main reason why VW cheated isn't an issue with the MB and BMW diesels.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 23:25:51 -0600, Tony Hwang
wrote:

Bob F wrote:
Bob F wrote:
NoSpamForMe wrote:
On 9/18/2015 8:19 PM, Ewald Böhm wrote:
Apparently Volkswagen/Audi cheated on the USA emissions tests since
2009 to 2015 by turning off the EGR to lower nitrogen oxide
emissions ONLY when the car was being tested for emissions.

REFERENCES:
http://blog.ucsusa.org/volkswagen-ca...cle-recall-887
http://www.engineering.com/AdvancedM...EPA-Tests.aspx
http://hothardware.com/news/vw-inten...-482k-vehicles
etc.

My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for
emissions?

It seems like everyone here is on a VW witch hunt.
I would expect VW to program it's black boxes to use the minimum fuel
for a given situation. If the car is on a dyno, there would be no
wind resistance to push
against so the fuel system *should* lower the fuel flow. I'd expect
the same behavior if I was rolling down a mountain grade. Sheeeesh!

Wow! Cluelessness at it's best!

Update 9/22: This morning VW announced that the cheating issue on diesel engines
is much more vast than initially expected. The company admitted to cheating on
11 million diesel engines worldwide.


Wonder about MB and BMW Diesel vehicles. I was looking at MB GLK-250
Diesel version when news broke out. Considering Diesel vehicle for next
new car purchase is on hold now. Also I am wondering about turbo charged
small engines on almost every cars, Ecoboost, Skyactive...,etc. Crap.
BMW and MB use DEF - I believe it wsas only Volkswagen's "clean diesel
technology" that did not - and now we know how THAT worked.

| Update 9/22: This morning VW announced that the cheating issue on diesel
engines
| is much more vast than initially expected. The company admitted to
cheating on
| 11 million diesel engines worldwide.
|

I saw the NYT version of that. It casts the whole
issue in a somewhat less extreme light. It turns out
most of the cars are in Europe, where despite
environmentalist idealism being high, regulations are
light and testing is limited.

So while their scam in the US seems to be pure idiocy,
in Europe it comes across as something less extreme.
A questionable way to increase gas mileage rather than
an outright lie and illegal deception. Contemptible, but
not necessarily guaranteed to be self-destructive, as it
seems in the US.

On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 21:26:40 -0700, Bob F wrote:

Update 9/22: This morning VW announced that the cheating issue on diesel engines
is much more vast than initially expected. The company admitted to cheating on
11 million diesel engines worldwide.

And the CEO stepped down today.

VW even, apparently, fingered a few employees to the German justice system
(which I'd love to know more about - because it gets down to "WHO" did it).

On 23.09.15 20:45, Winston_Smith wrote:
On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 21:26:40 -0700, Bob F wrote:

Update 9/22: This morning VW announced that the cheating issue on diesel engines
is much more vast than initially expected. The company admitted to cheating on
11 million diesel engines worldwide.

And the CEO stepped down today.

VW even, apparently, fingered a few employees to the German justice system
(which I'd love to know more about - because it gets down to "WHO" did it).

The top100 of the factory leaders will say sorry, and
tell us they did not know about it, and
a few janitors will go to jail.
Oh, and profits might go down a bit.......

White collar crime punishment is almost non-existent..

On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 00:19:10 +0000 (UTC), Ewald Böhm
wrote:

Apparently Volkswagen/Audi cheated on the USA emissions tests since
2009 to 2015 by turning off the EGR to lower nitrogen oxide emissions
ONLY when the car was being tested for emissions.

REFERENCES:
http://blog.ucsusa.org/volkswagen-ca...cle-recall-887
http://www.engineering.com/AdvancedM...EPA-Tests.aspx
http://hothardware.com/news/vw-inten...-482k-vehicles
etc.

My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions?

The most important thing here is that puts an end to those incessant
and tasteless TDI ads on TV, with those offensive dirty old women.
Good.

Vic Smith wrote:
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 00:19:10 +0000 (UTC), Ewald Böhm
wrote:

Apparently Volkswagen/Audi cheated on the USA emissions tests since
2009 to 2015 by turning off the EGR to lower nitrogen oxide emissions
ONLY when the car was being tested for emissions.

REFERENCES:
http://blog.ucsusa.org/volkswagen-ca...cle-recall-887
http://www.engineering.com/AdvancedM...EPA-Tests.aspx
http://hothardware.com/news/vw-inten...-482k-vehicles
etc.

My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions?

The most important thing here is that puts an end to those incessant
and tasteless TDI ads on TV, with those offensive dirty old women.
Good.

There may be others cheating too, just not caught yet.
Big corp. mentality like VW cheating. They should be fined $$$
as an example and top guy should do some jail time as well.
VW chief said, "we screwed up" So they intentionally cheated.

On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 19:52:57 -0600, Tony Hwang
wrote:

Vic Smith wrote:
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 00:19:10 +0000 (UTC), Ewald Böhm
wrote:

Apparently Volkswagen/Audi cheated on the USA emissions tests since
2009 to 2015 by turning off the EGR to lower nitrogen oxide emissions
ONLY when the car was being tested for emissions.

REFERENCES:
http://blog.ucsusa.org/volkswagen-ca...cle-recall-887
http://www.engineering.com/AdvancedM...EPA-Tests.aspx
http://hothardware.com/news/vw-inten...-482k-vehicles
etc.

My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions?

The most important thing here is that puts an end to those incessant
and tasteless TDI ads on TV, with those offensive dirty old women.
Good.

There may be others cheating too, just not caught yet.
Big corp. mentality like VW cheating. They should be fined $$$
as an example and top guy should do some jail time as well.
VW chief said, "we screwed up" So they intentionally cheated.

Yeah, those disgusting ads on TV should have been a clue that VW was
an immoral company. A thorough investigation is necessary.
When the congressional Benghazi committee wraps it up in the next
10-12 years, they should take this up.
They'll get to the bottom of it.

On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 21:13:49 -0500, Vic Smith wrote:

When the congressional Benghazi committee wraps it up in the next
10-12 years, they should take this up.
They'll get to the bottom of it.

I realize some things are "political", but is *this* issue really a
"congressional" issue?

Isn't it simply that CARB & the EPA have procedures which are backed up
by force of law (admittedly, made by Congress), which VW broke?

On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 02:37:55 +0000 (UTC), Winston_Smith
wrote:

On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 21:13:49 -0500, Vic Smith wrote:

When the congressional Benghazi committee wraps it up in the next
10-12 years, they should take this up.
They'll get to the bottom of it.

I realize some things are "political", but is *this* issue really a
"congressional" issue?

Isn't it simply that CARB & the EPA have procedures which are backed up
by force of law (admittedly, made by Congress), which VW broke?

That was tongue and cheek. But a congressional committee can
investigate a ham sandwich if they please.

On 9/22/2015 9:52 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:


There may be others cheating too, just not caught yet.
Big corp. mentality like VW cheating. They should be fined $$$
as an example and top guy should do some jail time as well.
VW chief said, "we screwed up" So they intentionally cheated.


I cannot imagine a big corporation intentionally doing something like
that and figure they would not get caught. Too many people work on
projects like that and superiors have to sign off. The cost t fix it is
in the billions and for what?

On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 22:19:48 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

I cannot imagine a big corporation intentionally doing something like
that and figure they would not get caught. Too many people work on
projects like that and superiors have to sign off. The cost t fix it is
in the billions and for what?

I wonder, out loud, how many people inside of VW knew about this?

Do you think it was a small cadre?
Or basically everyone?

On 9/22/2015 10:38 PM, Winston_Smith wrote:
On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 22:19:48 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

I cannot imagine a big corporation intentionally doing something like
that and figure they would not get caught. Too many people work on
projects like that and superiors have to sign off. The cost t fix it is
in the billions and for what?

I wonder, out loud, how many people inside of VW knew about this?

Do you think it was a small cadre?
Or basically everyone?


In a corporation that size, even a small cadre could have been 20 to 50
engineers. Someone had to come up with the idea, design, build, test,
and approve everything. The guys on the line installing would probably
have no idea, just another part. Higher level in engineering would know.

On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 19:52:57 -0600, Tony Hwang wrote:

VW chief said, "we screwed up" So they intentionally cheated.

Actually, the USA chief said "we screwed up".
The Germany chief is just "endlessly sorry".

On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 20:12:41 -0500, Vic Smith wrote:

The most important thing here is that puts an end to those incessant
and tasteless TDI ads on TV, with those offensive dirty old women.
Good

Apparently VW yanked *all* those youtube ads, completely.
Amazing how quickly that marketing team can move!

On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 19:19:10 -0500, Ewald Böhm
wrote:

Apparently Volkswagen/Audi cheated on the USA emissions tests since
2009 to 2015 by turning off the EGR to lower nitrogen oxide emissions
ONLY when the car was being tested for emissions.

REFERENCES:
http://blog.ucsusa.org/volkswagen-ca...cle-recall-887
http://www.engineering.com/AdvancedM...EPA-Tests.aspx
http://hothardware.com/news/vw-inten...-482k-vehicles
etc.

My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for
emissions?

The CEO of VW is stepping down.
http://preview.alturl.com/jxppg
It's too bad he's German. We might run
out of candidates for U.S. President.


--
Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

Ewald Böhm wrote in :

My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions?

This video says that the VW TDI meets all California and US & Europe requirements!
https://youtu.be/GzuFXeO48Rw?t=635

Vincent Cheng Hoi Chuen wrote:
Ewald Böhm wrote in
:

My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for
emissions?

This video says that the VW TDI meets all California and US & Europe
requirements! https://youtu.be/GzuFXeO48Rw?t=635

So it must be true?

"Bob F" wrote in :

This video says that the VW TDI meets all California and US & Europe
requirements! https://youtu.be/GzuFXeO48Rw?t=635

So it must be true?

It was ironic.

On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 00:19:10 +0000, Ewald Böhm wrote:

My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions?

What I don't understand is that VW had to submit test results from a
(supposedly) independent company in Europe to get certified in Europe
for the 11 million cars that might be affected.

They apparently contracted that job out to Applus Idiada of Spain.

Has anyone any idea how Applus Idiada verified the wrong numbers?

Ewald Böhm wrote in message


Apparently Volkswagen/Audi cheated on the USA emissions tests since
2009 to 2015 by turning off the EGR to lower nitrogen oxide emissions
ONLY when the car was being tested for emissions.

Was the software really all that "sophisticated"?

The NY Times said it was "sophisticated".
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/25/bu...boardroom.html

I think it was just brazen.

Wait, let's get this fukun straight. The EGR valve LOWERs N2O emissions by lowering peak combustion temperature.

It takes a high temperature to burn nitrogen and that is the deal, it combines with the O2 and becomes NO2. This does not happen as much at lower temperatures.

The EGR system allows the intake system to brerathe really well, usually with VEs (volumetric efficiency) over 100 even in normally aspirated engines because of good camshaft design.

you can get all this, and use EGR to make regular gas burn like premium. That is one of the things it does. Lowering the peak combustion temperature, by the laws of physics, will slow down the combustion rate.

Ignition ping is caused by too fast combustion.

Modern cars have a knock sensor and continually advance the base ignition timing incrementally until the knock sensor "reports". Then it backs off. This allows it to give you better performance with better gas. I know this is a diesel, but when it comes to EGR it still does the same thing.

Bottom line, they turned off the EGR until such time the car was under test, ;detected either by the connection of the tester, or the fact that the non-drive wheels were not turning. That information is readily available from the ABS system, and traction control if so equipped.

I am surprised the admitted it. I would have said there is no explanation and we would just pay a fine, like $5 million or so to your favorite charity as well.

"Golf on Wednesday ?"
"Definitely, we are going to kick your ass"
"Really"

wrote:


Ignition ping is caused by too fast combustion.

Modern cars have a knock sensor and continually advance the base ignition
timing incrementally until the knock sensor "reports". Then it backs off.
This allows it to give you better performance with better gas. I know this
is a diesel, but when it comes to EGR it still does the same thing.
The VW cars in queston are DIESEL, not gas.

Jon