On 9/19/2015 11:12 AM, Steve W. wrote:

Sure will. You have to enter the VIN into the system to start the
inspection. IF the EPA requires a recall to reflash the ECM to remove
that software and "correct" the problem, that would have to be done at a
dealer. They will track completed vehicles by VIN. The state can just
flag ALL those vehicles. You pull in, they plug in the tester, and your
VIN doesn't show on the "recall complete" list. You don't get inspected.

That has happened before for other recalls. I'm betting the fix will be
to re-flash the ECM software to remove the "switch". Then run each one
through the full EPA test regardless of registration state. That because
this if a federal law that was broken.

What will be fun will be watching all the johnny racer types who
modified the cars by removing emissions gear and "tuning" the ECM. VW
could actually show them to the EPA and say "THEY removed the systems so
they should pay a fine as well".

When has the EPA ever gone after individual passenger car vehicle owners?

.. wrote:
On 9/19/2015 11:12 AM, Steve W. wrote:
Sure will. You have to enter the VIN into the system to start the
inspection. IF the EPA requires a recall to reflash the ECM to remove
that software and "correct" the problem, that would have to be done at a
dealer. They will track completed vehicles by VIN. The state can just
flag ALL those vehicles. You pull in, they plug in the tester, and your
VIN doesn't show on the "recall complete" list. You don't get inspected.

That has happened before for other recalls. I'm betting the fix will be
to re-flash the ECM software to remove the "switch". Then run each one
through the full EPA test regardless of registration state. That because
this if a federal law that was broken.

What will be fun will be watching all the johnny racer types who
modified the cars by removing emissions gear and "tuning" the ECM. VW
could actually show them to the EPA and say "THEY removed the systems so
they should pay a fine as well".

When has the EPA ever gone after individual passenger car vehicle owners?

Happens a lot more than you might think. States get into the act under
the umbrella of the EPA laws.


VW intentionally wrote software for their vehicles with the express
intent of violating the EPA laws. They admitted to that already so it
will be interesting to see what happens. The EPA could recall the cars,
judge them as "unrepairable gross polluters" and have them crushed. I
doubt they will go that far but they have done it before under the "cars
for cash" BS.

--
Steve W.

On 9/19/2015 12:20 PM, Steve W. wrote:
. wrote:
On 9/19/2015 11:12 AM, Steve W. wrote:
Sure will. You have to enter the VIN into the system to start the
inspection. IF the EPA requires a recall to reflash the ECM to remove
that software and "correct" the problem, that would have to be done at a
dealer. They will track completed vehicles by VIN. The state can just
flag ALL those vehicles. You pull in, they plug in the tester, and your
VIN doesn't show on the "recall complete" list. You don't get inspected.

That has happened before for other recalls. I'm betting the fix will be
to re-flash the ECM software to remove the "switch". Then run each one
through the full EPA test regardless of registration state. That because
this if a federal law that was broken.

What will be fun will be watching all the johnny racer types who
modified the cars by removing emissions gear and "tuning" the ECM. VW
could actually show them to the EPA and say "THEY removed the systems so
they should pay a fine as well".

When has the EPA ever gone after individual passenger car vehicle owners?

Happens a lot more than you might think. States get into the act under
the umbrella of the EPA laws.

I've still yet to hear or read of a single case myself.

VW intentionally wrote software for their vehicles with the express
intent of violating the EPA laws.

Yes, I know. But the EPA will be the only route by which this
could be addressed given that many states don't even do testing.

On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 12:34:45 -0500, "." wrote:

On 9/19/2015 12:20 PM, Steve W. wrote:
. wrote:
On 9/19/2015 11:12 AM, Steve W. wrote:
Sure will. You have to enter the VIN into the system to start the
inspection. IF the EPA requires a recall to reflash the ECM to remove
that software and "correct" the problem, that would have to be done at a
dealer. They will track completed vehicles by VIN. The state can just
flag ALL those vehicles. You pull in, they plug in the tester, and your
VIN doesn't show on the "recall complete" list. You don't get inspected.

That has happened before for other recalls. I'm betting the fix will be
to re-flash the ECM software to remove the "switch". Then run each one
through the full EPA test regardless of registration state. That because
this if a federal law that was broken.

What will be fun will be watching all the johnny racer types who
modified the cars by removing emissions gear and "tuning" the ECM. VW
could actually show them to the EPA and say "THEY removed the systems so
they should pay a fine as well".

When has the EPA ever gone after individual passenger car vehicle owners?

Happens a lot more than you might think. States get into the act under
the umbrella of the EPA laws.

I've still yet to hear or read of a single case myself.

Spot checking of modified vehicles at large "car shows" has been
promised, and reported. Just because your car is registered as a 1927
model "T" ford does not mean it is exempt from emissions testing if it
has a 2009 Chevy LT between the frame rails.

Officially it needs to meet the requirements for the 2009 vehicle the
LT was originally supplied for (determined by the engine number).


VW intentionally wrote software for their vehicles with the express
intent of violating the EPA laws.

Yes, I know. But the EPA will be the only route by which this
could be addressed given that many states don't even do testing.

On 9/19/2015 1:23 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 12:34:45 -0500, "." wrote:
When has the EPA ever gone after individual passenger car vehicle owners?

Happens a lot more than you might think. States get into the act under
the umbrella of the EPA laws.

I've still yet to hear or read of a single case myself.

Spot checking of modified vehicles at large "car shows" has been
promised, and reported.

I must have missed that line. Where and when was that again?

Just because your car is registered as a 1927
model "T" ford does not mean it is exempt from emissions testing if it
has a 2009 Chevy LT between the frame rails.

No kidding.

Officially it needs to meet the requirements for the 2009 vehicle the
LT was originally supplied for (determined by the engine number).

You don't say.

On Saturday, September 19, 2015 at 2:24:39 PM UTC-4, wrote:


Spot checking of modified vehicles at large "car shows" has been
promised, and reported. Just because your car is registered as a 1927
model "T" ford does not mean it is exempt from emissions testing if it
has a 2009 Chevy LT between the frame rails.

Officially it needs to meet the requirements for the 2009 vehicle the
LT was originally supplied for (determined by the engine number).


Depends on the state. In CT, the car only needs to pass the test for the year the car's VIN indicates, assuming they test old cars (CT doesn't on cars earlier than 1990).

Steve W. wrote:
. wrote:
On 9/19/2015 11:12 AM, Steve W. wrote:
Sure will. You have to enter the VIN into the system to start the
inspection. IF the EPA requires a recall to reflash the ECM to
remove that software and "correct" the problem, that would have to
be done at a dealer. They will track completed vehicles by VIN. The
state can just flag ALL those vehicles. You pull in, they plug in
the tester, and your VIN doesn't show on the "recall complete"
list. You don't get inspected. That has happened before for other recalls.
I'm betting the fix
will be to re-flash the ECM software to remove the "switch". Then
run each one through the full EPA test regardless of registration
state. That because this if a federal law that was broken.

What will be fun will be watching all the johnny racer types who
modified the cars by removing emissions gear and "tuning" the ECM.
VW could actually show them to the EPA and say "THEY removed the
systems so they should pay a fine as well".

When has the EPA ever gone after individual passenger car vehicle
owners?

Happens a lot more than you might think. States get into the act under
the umbrella of the EPA laws.


VW intentionally wrote software for their vehicles with the express
intent of violating the EPA laws. They admitted to that already so it
will be interesting to see what happens. The EPA could recall the
cars, judge them as "unrepairable gross polluters" and have them
crushed. I doubt they will go that far but they have done it before
under the "cars for cash" BS.

Or, the EPA could require that all the cheating cars be re-programmed to meet
requirements all the time, and owners could sue VW's ass off for cheating them,
since the resulting performance will be terrible.

On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 12:08:40 -0700, "Bob F"
wrote:

Steve W. wrote:
. wrote:
On 9/19/2015 11:12 AM, Steve W. wrote:
Sure will. You have to enter the VIN into the system to start the
inspection. IF the EPA requires a recall to reflash the ECM to
remove that software and "correct" the problem, that would have to
be done at a dealer. They will track completed vehicles by VIN. The
state can just flag ALL those vehicles. You pull in, they plug in
the tester, and your VIN doesn't show on the "recall complete"
list. You don't get inspected. That has happened before for other recalls.
I'm betting the fix
will be to re-flash the ECM software to remove the "switch". Then
run each one through the full EPA test regardless of registration
state. That because this if a federal law that was broken.

What will be fun will be watching all the johnny racer types who
modified the cars by removing emissions gear and "tuning" the ECM.
VW could actually show them to the EPA and say "THEY removed the
systems so they should pay a fine as well".

When has the EPA ever gone after individual passenger car vehicle
owners?

Happens a lot more than you might think. States get into the act under
the umbrella of the EPA laws.


VW intentionally wrote software for their vehicles with the express
intent of violating the EPA laws. They admitted to that already so it
will be interesting to see what happens. The EPA could recall the
cars, judge them as "unrepairable gross polluters" and have them
crushed. I doubt they will go that far but they have done it before
under the "cars for cash" BS.

Or, the EPA could require that all the cheating cars be re-programmed to meet
requirements all the time, and owners could sue VW's ass off for cheating them,
since the resulting performance will be terrible.

The cars should be re-programmed, at the expense of VW. And then a lot
of class action suits should be filed against VW. I suppose, to be
fair to the car buyers who did not knowingly participate in the scam,
there should be an option to have the new firmware installed. If they
get the new firmware then they get to sue. If not then they would get
no compensation because they have not suffered a loss.
ERS

wrote:
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 12:08:40 -0700, "Bob F"
wrote:

Steve W. wrote:
. wrote:
On 9/19/2015 11:12 AM, Steve W. wrote:
Sure will. You have to enter the VIN into the system to start the
inspection. IF the EPA requires a recall to reflash the ECM to
remove that software and "correct" the problem, that would have to
be done at a dealer. They will track completed vehicles by VIN.
The
state can just flag ALL those vehicles. You pull in, they plug in
the tester, and your VIN doesn't show on the "recall complete"
list. You don't get inspected. That has happened before for other
recalls. I'm betting the fix
will be to re-flash the ECM software to remove the "switch". Then
run each one through the full EPA test regardless of registration
state. That because this if a federal law that was broken.

What will be fun will be watching all the johnny racer types who
modified the cars by removing emissions gear and "tuning" the ECM.
VW could actually show them to the EPA and say "THEY removed the
systems so they should pay a fine as well".

When has the EPA ever gone after individual passenger car vehicle
owners?

Happens a lot more than you might think. States get into the act
under the umbrella of the EPA laws.


VW intentionally wrote software for their vehicles with the express
intent of violating the EPA laws. They admitted to that already so
it will be interesting to see what happens. The EPA could recall the
cars, judge them as "unrepairable gross polluters" and have them
crushed. I doubt they will go that far but they have done it before
under the "cars for cash" BS.

Or, the EPA could require that all the cheating cars be
re-programmed to meet requirements all the time, and owners could
sue VW's ass off for cheating them, since the resulting performance
will be terrible.

The cars should be re-programmed, at the expense of VW. And then a lot
of class action suits should be filed against VW. I suppose, to be
fair to the car buyers who did not knowingly participate in the scam,
there should be an option to have the new firmware installed. If they
get the new firmware then they get to sue. If not then they would get
no compensation because they have not suffered a loss.
ERS

No loss other than being unable to license their cars?

On Mon, 21 Sep 2015 09:43:43 -0700, "Bob F"
wrote:

wrote:
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 12:08:40 -0700, "Bob F"
wrote:

Steve W. wrote:
. wrote:
On 9/19/2015 11:12 AM, Steve W. wrote:
Sure will. You have to enter the VIN into the system to start the
inspection. IF the EPA requires a recall to reflash the ECM to
remove that software and "correct" the problem, that would have to
be done at a dealer. They will track completed vehicles by VIN.
The
state can just flag ALL those vehicles. You pull in, they plug in
the tester, and your VIN doesn't show on the "recall complete"
list. You don't get inspected. That has happened before for other
recalls. I'm betting the fix
will be to re-flash the ECM software to remove the "switch". Then
run each one through the full EPA test regardless of registration
state. That because this if a federal law that was broken.

What will be fun will be watching all the johnny racer types who
modified the cars by removing emissions gear and "tuning" the ECM.
VW could actually show them to the EPA and say "THEY removed the
systems so they should pay a fine as well".

When has the EPA ever gone after individual passenger car vehicle
owners?

Happens a lot more than you might think. States get into the act
under the umbrella of the EPA laws.


VW intentionally wrote software for their vehicles with the express
intent of violating the EPA laws. They admitted to that already so
it will be interesting to see what happens. The EPA could recall the
cars, judge them as "unrepairable gross polluters" and have them
crushed. I doubt they will go that far but they have done it before
under the "cars for cash" BS.

Or, the EPA could require that all the cheating cars be
re-programmed to meet requirements all the time, and owners could
sue VW's ass off for cheating them, since the resulting performance
will be terrible.

The cars should be re-programmed, at the expense of VW. And then a lot
of class action suits should be filed against VW. I suppose, to be
fair to the car buyers who did not knowingly participate in the scam,
there should be an option to have the new firmware installed. If they
get the new firmware then they get to sue. If not then they would get
no compensation because they have not suffered a loss.
ERS

No loss other than being unable to license their cars?

If they cannot license their cars without a firmware update then
they have suffered a loss and should of course be able to sue or
otherwise be remunerated. I was thinking about the car owners who live
in an area where cars are not smog checked. For example, I live in
Island County which is about 30 Miles from Seattle which is in King
County. This means I don't have to get my vehicles smog checked
whereas King County residents do. I don't know how CA does smog checks
but I suspect everyone who lives there has to get one. I can see that
I should have thought of that before I posted my comments.
I just heard on the news that there are about 450,000 vehicles in
the USA that have the dishonest firmware and that the EPA can fine VW
$37,500 for each car.
I find it amazing that so many people would participate in such a
dishonest act, and that it could remain secret for so long. All sorts
of folks, from the upper management to the software writers, had to
know about and agree to actively participate in the fraud. I can see
how some would do so because of greed. And others may have been afraid
of losing their jobs. But I would think that many would refuse to
commit fraud and that some of them would spill the beans. I guess I'm
naive.
Eric

" I find it amazing that so many people would participate in such a
dishonest act, and that it could remain secret for so long."

Sorry. Seems like you are a good person and projecting, trying to think everyone else is good.

That ain't how it is. Companies have a roomful of lawyers and accountant who do nothing but figure out odds on how much they can break the law or endanger people with a cheap design, versus how much it will cost them if they get caught, or have lawsuits. It is like playing poker. If you now ht you're doing, it is all a matter of real odds versus pot odds. that is how they think. That is how they stay on the board of directors, because they live the company on the edge. And if they don't they are voted out.

wrote:
On Mon, 21 Sep 2015 09:43:43 -0700, "Bob F"
wrote:

wrote:
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 12:08:40 -0700, "Bob F"
wrote:

Steve W. wrote:
. wrote:
On 9/19/2015 11:12 AM, Steve W. wrote:
Sure will. You have to enter the VIN into the system to start
the inspection. IF the EPA requires a recall to reflash the ECM
to remove that software and "correct" the problem, that would
have to be done at a dealer. They will track completed vehicles
by VIN. The
state can just flag ALL those vehicles. You pull in, they plug
in the tester, and your VIN doesn't show on the "recall
complete" list. You don't get inspected. That has happened
before for other recalls. I'm betting the fix
will be to re-flash the ECM software to remove the "switch".
Then run each one through the full EPA test regardless of
registration state. That because this if a federal law that was
broken.

What will be fun will be watching all the johnny racer types who
modified the cars by removing emissions gear and "tuning" the
ECM. VW could actually show them to the EPA and say "THEY
removed the systems so they should pay a fine as well".

When has the EPA ever gone after individual passenger car vehicle
owners?

Happens a lot more than you might think. States get into the act
under the umbrella of the EPA laws.


VW intentionally wrote software for their vehicles with the
express intent of violating the EPA laws. They admitted to that
already so it will be interesting to see what happens. The EPA
could recall the cars, judge them as "unrepairable gross
polluters" and have them crushed. I doubt they will go that far
but they have done it before under the "cars for cash" BS.

Or, the EPA could require that all the cheating cars be
re-programmed to meet requirements all the time, and owners could
sue VW's ass off for cheating them, since the resulting performance
will be terrible.

The cars should be re-programmed, at the expense of VW. And then a
lot of class action suits should be filed against VW. I suppose, to
be fair to the car buyers who did not knowingly participate in the
scam, there should be an option to have the new firmware installed.
If they get the new firmware then they get to sue. If not then they
would get no compensation because they have not suffered a loss.
ERS

No loss other than being unable to license their cars?

If they cannot license their cars without a firmware update then
they have suffered a loss and should of course be able to sue or
otherwise be remunerated. I was thinking about the car owners who live
in an area where cars are not smog checked. For example, I live in
Island County which is about 30 Miles from Seattle which is in King
County. This means I don't have to get my vehicles smog checked
whereas King County residents do. I don't know how CA does smog checks
but I suspect everyone who lives there has to get one. I can see that
I should have thought of that before I posted my comments.
I just heard on the news that there are about 450,000 vehicles in
the USA that have the dishonest firmware and that the EPA can fine VW
$37,500 for each car.
I find it amazing that so many people would participate in such a
dishonest act, and that it could remain secret for so long. All sorts
of folks, from the upper management to the software writers, had to
know about and agree to actively participate in the fraud. I can see
how some would do so because of greed. And others may have been afraid
of losing their jobs. But I would think that many would refuse to
commit fraud and that some of them would spill the beans. I guess I'm
naive.
Eric

I wouldn't be supprised to see the state refuse to re-license your car if the
resulting recalls are not implemented. VW has created an unusual opportunity for
punitive law enforcement activity. They deserve the maximum possible penalties.
In my opinion, purchaser lawsuits should be strongly pursued, to be added to the
maximum federal penalties allowable against VW. This kind of premeditated
violation is completely unacceptable.

On Saturday, September 19, 2015 at 6:49:22 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 12:08:40 -0700, "Bob F"
wrote:

Steve W. wrote:
. wrote:
On 9/19/2015 11:12 AM, Steve W. wrote:
Sure will. You have to enter the VIN into the system to start the
inspection. IF the EPA requires a recall to reflash the ECM to
remove that software and "correct" the problem, that would have to
be done at a dealer. They will track completed vehicles by VIN. The
state can just flag ALL those vehicles. You pull in, they plug in
the tester, and your VIN doesn't show on the "recall complete"
list. You don't get inspected. That has happened before for other recalls.
I'm betting the fix
will be to re-flash the ECM software to remove the "switch". Then
run each one through the full EPA test regardless of registration
state. That because this if a federal law that was broken.

What will be fun will be watching all the johnny racer types who
modified the cars by removing emissions gear and "tuning" the ECM.
VW could actually show them to the EPA and say "THEY removed the
systems so they should pay a fine as well".

When has the EPA ever gone after individual passenger car vehicle
owners?

Happens a lot more than you might think. States get into the act under
the umbrella of the EPA laws.


VW intentionally wrote software for their vehicles with the express
intent of violating the EPA laws. They admitted to that already so it
will be interesting to see what happens. The EPA could recall the
cars, judge them as "unrepairable gross polluters" and have them
crushed. I doubt they will go that far but they have done it before
under the "cars for cash" BS.

Or, the EPA could require that all the cheating cars be re-programmed to meet
requirements all the time, and owners could sue VW's ass off for cheating them,
since the resulting performance will be terrible.

The cars should be re-programmed, at the expense of VW. And then a lot
of class action suits should be filed against VW. I suppose, to be
fair to the car buyers who did not knowingly participate in the scam,
there should be an option to have the new firmware installed. If they
get the new firmware then they get to sue. If not then they would get
no compensation because they have not suffered a loss.
ERS

Owners will NOT have the option to opt out of the firmware being upgraded because the cars are not EPA certifiable at this point. They need to be brought into compliance by U.S. law or be crushed if they cant. If the owner refuses to get an approved fix done, then many (if not most) will fail the car's emissions test and pull the reg (CT).

As far as suffering loss, that depends on the fix. If the firmware (and most likely hardware) changes do bring the cars into compliance, but causes a loss of performance and/or fuel mileage, then the owners have indeed suffered a compensable loss. If it can be shown that the resale of the cars suffered as a result of all of this, then that's also compensable. If the fix actually improves performance and efficiency (long shot but who knows?), then it's a win for the customer as long as the fix doesn't shorten the life of the engine.

If the fix ends up being like so many other recalls, I'm sure VW will also include some VW swag for the customers to compensate for the trouble (VW backpack, key rings, VW feminine hygiene products, etc.) and probably coupons for service and/or extending the warranty.

It will be interesting to see if VW had a fix ready in case the scam became known.

Bob F wrote:
Steve W. wrote:
. wrote:
On 9/19/2015 11:12 AM, Steve W. wrote:
Sure will. You have to enter the VIN into the system to start the
inspection. IF the EPA requires a recall to reflash the ECM to
remove that software and "correct" the problem, that would have to
be done at a dealer. They will track completed vehicles by VIN. The
state can just flag ALL those vehicles. You pull in, they plug in
the tester, and your VIN doesn't show on the "recall complete"
list. You don't get inspected. That has happened before for other recalls.
I'm betting the fix
will be to re-flash the ECM software to remove the "switch". Then
run each one through the full EPA test regardless of registration
state. That because this if a federal law that was broken.

What will be fun will be watching all the johnny racer types who
modified the cars by removing emissions gear and "tuning" the ECM.
VW could actually show them to the EPA and say "THEY removed the
systems so they should pay a fine as well".
When has the EPA ever gone after individual passenger car vehicle
owners?
Happens a lot more than you might think. States get into the act under
the umbrella of the EPA laws.


VW intentionally wrote software for their vehicles with the express
intent of violating the EPA laws. They admitted to that already so it
will be interesting to see what happens. The EPA could recall the
cars, judge them as "unrepairable gross polluters" and have them
crushed. I doubt they will go that far but they have done it before
under the "cars for cash" BS.

Or, the EPA could require that all the cheating cars be re-programmed to meet
requirements all the time, and owners could sue VW's ass off for cheating them,
since the resulting performance will be terrible.



I doubt they will be able to sue. The "normal" EPA test numbers for
these vehicles have alwas been "low" compared to the ones outside the
lab. I hear folks all the time bragging how their VW gets 45 mpg but the
sticker says it should be getting 38 mpg. VW can re-flash the ECM and
simply say the the TEST (remember the tests would have been with the
emissions systems working)mpg is the correct number and their 45 mpg was
a fluke.

--
Steve W.