On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 22:45:53 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

I assume the car's computer
knows an instrument is plugged in so it changes the program.

Very few states use OBD emissions testing, and certainly California
doesn't yet, where California is fining VW along with the EPA.

http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/smogche...bd_only_im.pdf

Most use tailpipe testing.

Some, like California, run the car through the Federal Test Procedure
on a dynomometer.

Given thats at least three different procedures (where each state can
easily be different), I don't see *how* the engine computer *knows* it's
being tested for emissions.

Since almost no states use the OBD method, that's why I asked how the car
knows it is being tested.

Ewald Böhm wrote:
On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 22:45:53 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

I assume the car's computer
knows an instrument is plugged in so it changes the program.

Very few states use OBD emissions testing, and certainly California
doesn't yet, where California is fining VW along with the EPA.

http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/smogche...bd_only_im.pdf

Most use tailpipe testing.

Some, like California, run the car through the Federal Test Procedure
on a dynomometer.

Given thats at least three different procedures (where each state can
easily be different), I don't see *how* the engine computer *knows* it's
being tested for emissions.

Since almost no states use the OBD method, that's why I asked how the car
knows it is being tested.


How do you figure that "almost no states use OBD" testing. In fact most
of the states do not use a dyno any longer.

Alaska, Arizona, California (in areas that require "enhanced" emissions
testing), Colorado, Connecticut, Georgia, Illinois, Indiana, Kentucky,
Maine, Massachusetts, Missouri (St. Louis), Nevada, New Hampshire, North
Carolina, Oregon, Texas (Houston and Dallas/Ft. Worth), Utah (Salt Lake
City), Vermont, Washington and Wisconsin, New Jersey, New York (in areas
that require emissions testing), Pennsylvania (Pittsburgh and
Philadelphia) and Virginia ALL use some type of OBD II testing, some use
both OBD II and tailpipe.

As to how it knows it's being tested. Simple, as soon as the OBD test
link gets plugged into the port it starts asking the ECM which protocol
it communicates with. Emissions testing uses a specific test protocol,
that doesn't query ALL of the systems on the vehicle. Easy enough to
tell the ECM - When this protocol is queried activate this programming.

No different than the way software is set up in some cars to change the
driving parameters based on different "modes" or valet keys or key fob type.


--
Steve W.

On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 05:30:45 -0400, Steve W. wrote:

How do you figure that "almost no states use OBD" testing. In fact most
of the states do not use a dyno any longer.

I just had mine tested, in California, and they used a dyno.
No OBD hookup whatsoever.

On 9/19/2015 10:51 PM, Ewald Böhm wrote:
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 05:30:45 -0400, Steve W. wrote:

How do you figure that "almost no states use OBD" testing. In fact most
of the states do not use a dyno any longer.

I just had mine tested, in California, and they used a dyno.
No OBD hookup whatsoever.

How did they check for pending codes if they did not use a code scanner?
You can't pass with more than two pending codes (one on some years).

That shop would be shut down by the state if it was found that they were
passing cars without checking for pending codes.

sms wrote:
On 9/19/2015 10:51 PM, Ewald Böhm wrote:
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 05:30:45 -0400, Steve W. wrote:

How do you figure that "almost no states use OBD" testing. In fact most
of the states do not use a dyno any longer.

I just had mine tested, in California, and they used a dyno.
No OBD hookup whatsoever.

How did they check for pending codes if they did not use a code scanner?
You can't pass with more than two pending codes (one on some years).

They look for the light on the dashboard that indicates codes have been
logged.

In some places they always use the scanner to make sure, for instance,
that the ECU wasn't reset immdiately before taking the car in for
inspection. In some places they do not.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 20 Sep 2015 12:12:31 -0400, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

sms wrote:
On 9/19/2015 10:51 PM, Ewald Böhm wrote:
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 05:30:45 -0400, Steve W. wrote:

How do you figure that "almost no states use OBD" testing. In fact most
of the states do not use a dyno any longer.

I just had mine tested, in California, and they used a dyno.
No OBD hookup whatsoever.

How did they check for pending codes if they did not use a code scanner?
You can't pass with more than two pending codes (one on some years).

They look for the light on the dashboard that indicates codes have been
logged.

Except "pending"codes don't turn on the CEL, and the CEL does not
indicate if monitors have been "set"

In some places they always use the scanner to make sure, for instance,
that the ECU wasn't reset immdiately before taking the car in for
inspection. In some places they do not.
--scott

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 12:12:31 -0400, Scott Dorsey wrote:

They look for the light on the dashboard that indicates codes have been
logged.

That.

On 9/20/2015 9:12 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
sms wrote:
On 9/19/2015 10:51 PM, Ewald Böhm wrote:
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 05:30:45 -0400, Steve W. wrote:

How do you figure that "almost no states use OBD" testing. In fact most
of the states do not use a dyno any longer.

I just had mine tested, in California, and they used a dyno.
No OBD hookup whatsoever.

How did they check for pending codes if they did not use a code scanner?
You can't pass with more than two pending codes (one on some years).

They look for the light on the dashboard that indicates codes have been
logged.

In some places they always use the scanner to make sure, for instance,
that the ECU wasn't reset immdiately before taking the car in for
inspection. In some places they do not.

Well in California they definitely check via the OBD-II port. I had
replaced a battery and there were no dashboard lights indicating
anything. The first thing they did was to do a scan for codes.

The number of pending codes that is allowable varies by year of
manufacture. A good shop will tell you the drive sequence to clear the
pending codes for each model. A bad shop won't even know this information.

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 15:49:16 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 9/20/2015 9:12 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
sms wrote:
On 9/19/2015 10:51 PM, Ewald Böhm wrote:
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 05:30:45 -0400, Steve W. wrote:

How do you figure that "almost no states use OBD" testing. In fact most
of the states do not use a dyno any longer.

I just had mine tested, in California, and they used a dyno.
No OBD hookup whatsoever.

How did they check for pending codes if they did not use a code scanner?
You can't pass with more than two pending codes (one on some years).

They look for the light on the dashboard that indicates codes have been
logged.

In some places they always use the scanner to make sure, for instance,
that the ECU wasn't reset immdiately before taking the car in for
inspection. In some places they do not.

Well in California they definitely check via the OBD-II port. I had
replaced a battery and there were no dashboard lights indicating
anything. The first thing they did was to do a scan for codes.

The number of pending codes that is allowable varies by year of
manufacture. A good shop will tell you the drive sequence to clear the
pending codes for each model. A bad shop won't even know this information.
Actually it is not pending codes that are the issue. It is the
readiness monitors.. Can't remember how many readiness monitors there
are - but there's a catalyst monitor, a O2 sensor monitor, and EGR
monitors, and O2sensor heater and cat heater monitor on some vehicles.
These are the intermittent monitors that need to be "set" .

Setting the monitor just means they have been through one or more
test sequences and have aquired valid data..

The rest of the monitors are contimuous monitors - misfire,
component, and fuel system, nonitors.

The evap monitor, for instance, is only "valid" in a fixed temperature
range, and with the tank between something like 1/4 and 3/4 full (not
100% sure of the actual numbrs). If you reset the codes or replace
the battery on a vehicle with the tank full or almost empty you can
NOT set the readiness monitor for the evap system - so virtually ALL
OBD2 based emission test facilities will allow at least one monitor to
be un-set or not ready.

If you know what code is coming up, and want to "cheat" the system, if
you can avoid setting that particular monitor, while setting all the
others, you can sometimes get a vehicle to pass. You need to
understand the drive cycle and what can cause the monitor you want
dissabled to fail to set. (and it needs to be an intermittent or
non-continuous monitor. The usual culprits are Cat, evap, or EGR.

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 15:49:16 -0700, sms wrote:

The number of pending codes that is allowable varies by year of
manufacture. A good shop will tell you the drive sequence to clear the
pending codes for each model. A bad shop won't even know this information.

It's usually documented as the FTP.

On 9/20/2015 3:49 PM, sms wrote:

snip

I had a smog check this morning on a 2007 Camry. The shop had a new
machine for newer vehicles. Since September 2013, 2000 and newer
vehicles no longer get tested on the dynamometer and no longer get a
probe shoved up their tailpipe. The whole test is done via the OBD-II
port (as well as a visual inspection).

For diesel vehicles you can see the details he
http://www.smogtips.com/diesel-smog-test.cfm

So clearly VW was not just looking at wheel rotation, they probably
turned on the emission controls whenever they detected something reading
the sensors. I wonder if an ELM327 transceiver or a Progressive
"Snapshot" would have any effect.

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 07:56:20 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 9/19/2015 10:51 PM, Ewald Böhm wrote:
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 05:30:45 -0400, Steve W. wrote:

How do you figure that "almost no states use OBD" testing. In fact most
of the states do not use a dyno any longer.

I just had mine tested, in California, and they used a dyno.
No OBD hookup whatsoever.

How did they check for pending codes if they did not use a code scanner?
You can't pass with more than two pending codes (one on some years).

That shop would be shut down by the state if it was found that they were
passing cars without checking for pending codes.
In ontario the testers are directly connected to a central computer
and it is virtually impossible to go from stem 1 to step 3 without
completing step 2 first.

A number of years back, some crooks were running a "good" vehicle
through the test 5 or 6 times, entering the Vin for one that would not
pass. They made changes to the system that prevented that pretty
quick.

On 9/20/2015 12:32 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 07:56:20 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 9/19/2015 10:51 PM, Ewald Böhm wrote:
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 05:30:45 -0400, Steve W. wrote:

How do you figure that "almost no states use OBD" testing. In fact most
of the states do not use a dyno any longer.

I just had mine tested, in California, and they used a dyno.
No OBD hookup whatsoever.

How did they check for pending codes if they did not use a code scanner?
You can't pass with more than two pending codes (one on some years).

That shop would be shut down by the state if it was found that they were
passing cars without checking for pending codes.
In ontario the testers are directly connected to a central computer
and it is virtually impossible to go from stem 1 to step 3 without
completing step 2 first.

A number of years back, some crooks were running a "good" vehicle
through the test 5 or 6 times, entering the Vin for one that would not
pass. They made changes to the system that prevented that pretty
quick.

In California, one "smog check factory" in L.A. got caught because the
state checked registered addresses of the vehicles and wondered why so
many vehicles were being smogged at this one particular shop when their
registered address was so far away. Few people will drive 25 miles in
L.A. to get a smog check at a particular shop.

My brother-in-law regularly had inspectors come into his shop with test
vehicles to be smogged. They would reveal who they were after the test.
He did really well. He got one demerit for not telling the "customer"
that they had the option of getting the vehicle repaired at his shop or
any shop, even though he did ask if they wanted it to be repaired. But
he still passed the inspection.

Ewald Böhm wrote:
On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 22:45:53 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

I assume the car's computer
knows an instrument is plugged in so it changes the program.

Very few states use OBD emissions testing, and certainly California
doesn't yet, where California is fining VW along with the EPA.

http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/smogche...bd_only_im.pdf

Most use tailpipe testing.

Some, like California, run the car through the Federal Test Procedure
on a dynomometer.

Given thats at least three different procedures (where each state can
easily be different), I don't see *how* the engine computer *knows* it's
being tested for emissions.

Since almost no states use the OBD method, that's why I asked how the car
knows it is being tested.



http://obdclearinghouse.com/index.php

--
Steve W.

On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 04:45:38 +0000 (UTC), Ewald Böhm
wrote:

On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 22:45:53 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

I assume the car's computer
knows an instrument is plugged in so it changes the program.

Very few states use OBD emissions testing, and certainly California
doesn't yet, where California is fining VW along with the EPA.

http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/smogche...bd_only_im.pdf

Most use tailpipe testing.

Some, like California, run the car through the Federal Test Procedure
on a dynomometer.

Given thats at least three different procedures (where each state can
easily be different), I don't see *how* the engine computer *knows* it's
being tested for emissions.

Since almost no states use the OBD method, that's why I asked how the car
knows it is being tested.
Don't know how other jurisdictions do it, but in Ontario the old
"drive clean" test was a "rolling road" sniffer test at two speeds,
with the car connected to the computer via the diagnostic port, but
not accessing discrete codes.

The new system does away with both the "rolling road" and the sniffer,
meaning it can only "guess" or "deduce" if the NOX is within range -
it cannot tell if the reduction catalyst is working because only the
oxidizing catalyst is monitored by the secondary O2 sensor.

It is POSSIBLE that VW implements the "over-ride" whenever a certain
sequence of events is performed that are substantially the same as the
initialization procedure for running the test (There is a perscribed
sequence of events that MUST be performed to get a valid test result)
(like 20 many seconds at a particular RPM, followed by another given
period of time at another RPM) which, if performed during the normal
process of driving would also put the system in "bypass" for the
anticipated duration of the test.

In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 19 Sep 2015 04:45:38 +0000 (UTC), Ewald Böhm
wrote:

On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 22:45:53 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

I assume the car's computer
knows an instrument is plugged in so it changes the program.

Very few states use OBD emissions testing, and certainly California
doesn't yet, where California is fining VW along with the EPA.

http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/smogche...bd_only_im.pdf

Most use tailpipe testing.

Some, like California, run the car through the Federal Test Procedure
on a dynomometer.

Given thats at least three different procedures (where each state can
easily be different), I don't see *how* the engine computer *knows* it's
being tested for emissions.

Since almost no states use the OBD method, that's why I asked how the car
knows it is being tested.

Maryland used OBD on cars new enough. That includes my 2000 car, but I
don't think included my 1995 car.

(For the 1995 it used the dynamometer and tailpipe stick) I think when
I turn 70, if I don't drive too much, I won't have to be tested. Or
my car.

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 03:46:05 -0400, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 19 Sep 2015 04:45:38 +0000 (UTC), Ewald Böhm
wrote:

On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 22:45:53 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

I assume the car's computer
knows an instrument is plugged in so it changes the program.

Very few states use OBD emissions testing, and certainly California
doesn't yet, where California is fining VW along with the EPA.

http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/smogche...bd_only_im.pdf

Most use tailpipe testing.

Some, like California, run the car through the Federal Test Procedure
on a dynomometer.

Given thats at least three different procedures (where each state can
easily be different), I don't see *how* the engine computer *knows* it's
being tested for emissions.

Since almost no states use the OBD method, that's why I asked how the car
knows it is being tested.

Maryland used OBD on cars new enough. That includes my 2000 car, but I
don't think included my 1995 car.

(For the 1995 it used the dynamometer and tailpipe stick) I think when
I turn 70, if I don't drive too much, I won't have to be tested. Or
my car.
Officially, all cars 1996 and newer must be OBD2 compliant, but most
jurisdictions using OBD2 for E-Testing only start at 1997 models
because some 1996 models were not fully compliant. Only a very few
1995 vehicles had OBD2 capability as 1995 was "pre-standard"

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 15:08:01 -0400, wrote:

Officially, all cars 1996 and newer must be OBD2 compliant, but most
jurisdictions using OBD2 for E-Testing only start at 1997 models
because some 1996 models were not fully compliant. Only a very few
1995 vehicles had OBD2 capability as 1995 was "pre-standard"

This article says the whole TDI Clean Diesel campaign is a fraud.
I don't drive a diesel.

What was the "TDI Clean Diesel" campaign anyway?

On Mon, 21 Sep 2015 17:30:19 -0700, Danny D. wrote:

This article says the whole TDI Clean Diesel campaign is a fraud.
I don't drive a diesel.

What was the "TDI Clean Diesel" campaign anyway?

Oopops. Forgot to include the url:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars...l-controversy/

What was this "TDI Clean Diesel" campaign anyway?
And, what does that have to do with "urea" injection?

How does this UREA injection work?

On Mon, 21 Sep 2015 19:34:46 -0500, Danny D. wrote:

On Mon, 21 Sep 2015 17:30:19 -0700, Danny D. wrote:

This article says the whole TDI Clean Diesel campaign is a fraud.
I don't drive a diesel.

What was the "TDI Clean Diesel" campaign anyway?

Oopops. Forgot to include the url:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars...l-controversy/

What was this "TDI Clean Diesel" campaign anyway?

Apparently a way to avoid the urea injection everyone else
used to get emissions down to the legal limit.

And, what does that have to do with "urea" injection?

Both are supposedly ways to meet emissions standards.
One works. The other is Wizard of Oz engineering apparently.



How does this UREA injection work?
A youtube explanation:
http://preview.tinyurl.com/pumvto8
I didn't watch it and ain't qualified to
say if it's correct.

Have you noticed signs at truck stops saying "DEF Sold
In All Lanes"? That's diesel exhaust fluid or urea.



--
Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

"Danny D." writes:

On Mon, 21 Sep 2015 17:30:19 -0700, Danny D. wrote:

This article says the whole TDI Clean Diesel campaign is a fraud.
I don't drive a diesel.

What was the "TDI Clean Diesel" campaign anyway?

Oopops. Forgot to include the url:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars...l-controversy/

What was this "TDI Clean Diesel" campaign anyway?
And, what does that have to do with "urea" injection?

How does this UREA injection work?

It's in the article:

All the other carmakers control diesel emissions by spraying a urea
solution into the exhaust stream, where a catalyst converts it to
ammonia. The ammonia breaks down NOx into nitrogen and water.

--
Dan Espen