Hello all,

I bought this oscilloscope last weekend, it's the first one I've
owned. I have a basic understanding of electronics, my interest
mostly relates to keeping older stereo gear running, my own and the
stuff on permanant loan to family. So I usually am only opening
things up to change lamps and clean the pots. Anyway, I wanted to try
to gain a deeper understanding of how circuits work so I decided to
keep my eye out for a scope and now here I am.

The scope seemed to work fine with one exception: The intensity
control for 'A' (it has seperate controls for 'A' and 'B') seemed
wonky. When A was turned all the way down, there was still a trace
visible, which didn't seem right. As you turned it up it would stay
at the same intensity and then at about 40% it would suddenly get much
brighter.

I did a web search and found a couple of people who had issues with
the intensity control on the 22xx series of scopes (though none of
them had the same symptoms as mine), the problems ranged from a
defective/dirty pot, to a broken wire, to an open resistor, to a
problem IC (LM324). I also learned that this scope actually does a
POST when you turn it on and it will throw up an error message if
anything is majorly wrong. I also read the advice to keep a fan
blowing on it while the cover is off, which I have been doing.

I found a copy of the schematic (I have linked to excerpts here, the
whole service manual is 121 megs) and decided to do a cursory
examination; this also would give me a chance to see if the inside was
filthy which I was planning on checking at some point (actually, it
was very clean).

http://i.imgur.com/fu46CN4.jpg (intensity controls)

Well my problem wasn't a wire since the pot was soldered directly to
the CRT control board. I checked voltages at the 'A' control pot,
fine. R505 was nearby and was fine. It took a while to find LM324,
it was a mile away on the main board, half of it was poking out from
under a plastic cover that covered the high voltage section:

http://i.imgur.com/NnnRNvI.jpg (hv cover)

http://i.imgur.com/oCOyLOz.jpg (hv cover removed)

So I checked all the resistors in the above schematic associated with
'A' and they were all okay. However I did notice a resistor that was
burnt. Checking the board layout, it was R1027. It was at this point
I noticed the board layout in the service manual was different in
places than my actual unit.

http://i.imgur.com/abfYQAN.jpg (board layout)

This resistor is on this schematic:

http://i.imgur.com/AzCwCjt.jpg (power)

It's listed as a 0.2 W he

http://i.imgur.com/YYGMdZ0.jpg (parts list)

On paper it is supposed to be 10 ohms, it measured at 27. I check
R1026 to see if it matches the schematic and it is 10 ohms and it
looks fine (it's right next to the two 10uf caps in the picture). To
see what effect replacing this resistor would have, I put a couple of
resistors in parallel until I had 10 ohms total. The only effect
adding and taking away these resistors had was moving the trace
slightly up and down on the screen.

Now here's the thing - at some point during all this the intensity
problem seemed to fix itself. The trace would now go completely off
with the dial turned down all the way and it would get progressively
brighter as the control was turned. Okay, I was happy to leave it
alone except that I figured I should replace the resistor. I assumed
it got too hot being under that shroud. I took out the old resistor
(which flaked apart) and cleaned the area - the trace at one end was
blackened. I don't think I'm the one that caused this but I'm not
sure. The old resistor was too burnt to tell if it was original, it
was the same size as the others though.

Okay, now here's the actual problem - I replaced the resistor with a
0.5W one for good measure (the blue one just to the right of the
LM324):

http://i.imgur.com/oCOyLOz.jpg (hv cover removed)

I turn the unit on and it doesn't complain. The controls are still
working fine. I check the new resistor and it's very hot. Measure
the voltage across it: 4.6v. If my math is correct, that's 2 watts.
Turn it back off and let it cool. Back on to check voltages:
Incoming voltage to new resistor is +7.4v to ground. LM324 pin 4 to
ground is 2.7v. Voltage pin 4 to pin 11 (across IC) is 10 volts.
Voltage pin 11 to ground is -7.43 volts. Voltage after R1026 is -7.46
to ground. I desolder one end of R1026 and verify it is 10 ohms.
C1006 (the yellow guy near pin 7 of the IC) measures 47 ohms with a
multimeter. Shouldn't it read open? For reference, C1005 measures
about 100 ohms.

I'd just like to have an idea of what the problem might be before I
change any more components. Now I'm half wondering if it's the IC and
the fact that it's facing up and has a fan on it is allowing it to
work properly. Anyway, thanks for reading my long story and I'd
appreciate any suggestions you have.

This is where I downloaded the service manual:

http://elektrotanya.com/tektronix_22.../download.html



















--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

Hi Chris,
That is a capacitor and should read O/C on an ohmeter. Lift one end
and re-check. You might find it's OK. In circuit measurements are
not always reliable !


Chris B. prodded the keyboard

Hello all,

I bought this oscilloscope last weekend, it's the first one I've
owned. I have a basic understanding of electronics, my interest
mostly relates to keeping older stereo gear running, my own and the
stuff on permanant loan to family. So I usually am only opening
things up to change lamps and clean the pots. Anyway, I wanted to
try to gain a deeper understanding of how circuits work so I decided
to keep my eye out for a scope and now here I am.

The scope seemed to work fine with one exception: The intensity
control for 'A' (it has seperate controls for 'A' and 'B') seemed
wonky. When A was turned all the way down, there was still a trace
visible, which didn't seem right. As you turned it up it would
stay at the same intensity and then at about 40% it would suddenly
get much brighter.

I did a web search and found a couple of people who had issues with
the intensity control on the 22xx series of scopes (though none of
them had the same symptoms as mine), the problems ranged from a
defective/dirty pot, to a broken wire, to an open resistor, to a
problem IC (LM324). I also learned that this scope actually does a
POST when you turn it on and it will throw up an error message if
anything is majorly wrong. I also read the advice to keep a fan
blowing on it while the cover is off, which I have been doing.

I found a copy of the schematic (I have linked to excerpts here, the
whole service manual is 121 megs) and decided to do a cursory
examination; this also would give me a chance to see if the inside
was filthy which I was planning on checking at some point (actually,
it was very clean).

http://i.imgur.com/fu46CN4.jpg (intensity controls)

Well my problem wasn't a wire since the pot was soldered directly to
the CRT control board. I checked voltages at the 'A' control pot,
fine. R505 was nearby and was fine. It took a while to find LM324,
it was a mile away on the main board, half of it was poking out from
under a plastic cover that covered the high voltage section:

http://i.imgur.com/NnnRNvI.jpg (hv cover)

http://i.imgur.com/oCOyLOz.jpg (hv cover removed)

So I checked all the resistors in the above schematic associated
with
'A' and they were all okay. However I did notice a resistor that
was
burnt. Checking the board layout, it was R1027. It was at this
point I noticed the board layout in the service manual was different
in places than my actual unit.

http://i.imgur.com/abfYQAN.jpg (board layout)

This resistor is on this schematic:

http://i.imgur.com/AzCwCjt.jpg (power)

It's listed as a 0.2 W he

http://i.imgur.com/YYGMdZ0.jpg (parts list)

On paper it is supposed to be 10 ohms, it measured at 27. I check
R1026 to see if it matches the schematic and it is 10 ohms and it
looks fine (it's right next to the two 10uf caps in the picture).
To see what effect replacing this resistor would have, I put a
couple of
resistors in parallel until I had 10 ohms total. The only effect
adding and taking away these resistors had was moving the trace
slightly up and down on the screen.

Now here's the thing - at some point during all this the intensity
problem seemed to fix itself. The trace would now go completely off
with the dial turned down all the way and it would get progressively
brighter as the control was turned. Okay, I was happy to leave it
alone except that I figured I should replace the resistor. I
assumed
it got too hot being under that shroud. I took out the old resistor
(which flaked apart) and cleaned the area - the trace at one end
was
blackened. I don't think I'm the one that caused this but I'm not
sure. The old resistor was too burnt to tell if it was original, it
was the same size as the others though.

Okay, now here's the actual problem - I replaced the resistor with a
0.5W one for good measure (the blue one just to the right of the
LM324):

http://i.imgur.com/oCOyLOz.jpg (hv cover removed)

I turn the unit on and it doesn't complain. The controls are still
working fine. I check the new resistor and it's very hot. Measure
the voltage across it: 4.6v. If my math is correct, that's 2
watts.
Turn it back off and let it cool. Back on to check voltages:
Incoming voltage to new resistor is +7.4v to ground. LM324 pin 4 to
ground is 2.7v. Voltage pin 4 to pin 11 (across IC) is 10 volts.
Voltage pin 11 to ground is -7.43 volts. Voltage after R1026 is
-7.46
to ground. I desolder one end of R1026 and verify it is 10 ohms.
C1006 (the yellow guy near pin 7 of the IC) measures 47 ohms with a
multimeter. Shouldn't it read open? For reference, C1005 measures
about 100 ohms.

I'd just like to have an idea of what the problem might be before I
change any more components. Now I'm half wondering if it's the IC
and the fact that it's facing up and has a fan on it is allowing it
to
work properly. Anyway, thanks for reading my long story and I'd
appreciate any suggestions you have.

This is where I downloaded the service manual:

http://elektrotanya.com/tektronix_22.../download.html



















--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints:
---

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

On Fri, 25 Jul 2014 15:16:16 +0100, Baron
wrote:

Hi Chris,
That is a capacitor and should read O/C on an ohmeter. Lift one end
and re-check. You might find it's OK. In circuit measurements are
not always reliable !

Hi,

Thanks for the reply. I was thinking about it last night and I
figured it has to be C1006 leaking or shorted to ground. I just took
one end off and checked it - 120 ohms DCR. I also notice it's
slightly charred in one spot. So I will replace it (and I will
probably replace C1005 at the same time. My next question is what to
buy to replace it. It's listed as:

CAP, FXD, CER DI : 0.022 uf 20% 50V

Does that mean ceramic disc? I hope I can find one in that style
locally.





http://i.imgur.com/oCOyLOz.jpg (hv cover removed)

I turn the unit on and it doesn't complain. The controls are still
working fine. I check the new resistor and it's very hot. Measure
the voltage across it: 4.6v. If my math is correct, that's 2
watts.
Turn it back off and let it cool. Back on to check voltages:
Incoming voltage to new resistor is +7.4v to ground. LM324 pin 4 to
ground is 2.7v. Voltage pin 4 to pin 11 (across IC) is 10 volts.
Voltage pin 11 to ground is -7.43 volts. Voltage after R1026 is
-7.46
to ground. I desolder one end of R1026 and verify it is 10 ohms.
C1006 (the yellow guy near pin 7 of the IC) measures 47 ohms with a
multimeter. Shouldn't it read open? For reference, C1005 measures
about 100 ohms.

I'd just like to have an idea of what the problem might be before I
change any more components. Now I'm half wondering if it's the IC
and the fact that it's facing up and has a fan on it is allowing it
to
work properly. Anyway, thanks for reading my long story and I'd
appreciate any suggestions you have.

This is where I downloaded the service manual:

http://elektrotanya.com/tektronix_22.../download.html



















--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints:
---


--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

Chris B. prodded the keyboard

On Fri, 25 Jul 2014 15:16:16 +0100, Baron
wrote:

Hi Chris,
That is a capacitor and should read O/C on an ohmeter. Lift one end
and re-check. You might find it's OK. In circuit measurements are
not always reliable !

Hi,

Thanks for the reply. I was thinking about it last night and I
figured it has to be C1006 leaking or shorted to ground. I just
took one end off and checked it - 120 ohms DCR.

Its dead ! Bin it.

I also notice it's slightly charred in one spot. So I will replace
it (and I will probably replace C1005 at the same time. My next
question is what to buy to replace it. It's listed as:

CAP, FXD, CER DI : 0.022 uf 20% 50V

Does that mean ceramic disc? I hope I can find one in that style
locally.

Its not a critical component. 0.022 uf is a common value and 50Vw is
typical. Try RS components or Element 14, Mouser there's lots to go
at.

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

"Baron" wrote in message
...
Chris B. prodded the keyboard

On Fri, 25 Jul 2014 15:16:16 +0100, Baron
wrote:

Hi Chris,
That is a capacitor and should read O/C on an ohmeter. Lift one end
and re-check. You might find it's OK. In circuit measurements are
not always reliable !

Hi,

Thanks for the reply. I was thinking about it last night and I
figured it has to be C1006 leaking or shorted to ground. I just
took one end off and checked it - 120 ohms DCR.

Its dead ! Bin it.

I also notice it's slightly charred in one spot. So I will replace
it (and I will probably replace C1005 at the same time. My next
question is what to buy to replace it. It's listed as:

CAP, FXD, CER DI : 0.022 uf 20% 50V

Does that mean ceramic disc? I hope I can find one in that style
locally.

Its not a critical component. 0.022 uf is a common value and 50Vw is
typical. Try RS components or Element 14, Mouser there's lots to go
at.

--
Best Regards:
Baron.


Agreed. If it's hanging on the end of that feed resistor to deck, it's just
a decoupling cap, and anything of that sort of general value at that or
above voltage rating that will fit in the board, will be just fine. For test
purposes, you can run the 'scope quite happily with that cap just removed.
Most small-value rail decouplers like that one are only there for 'belt and
braces' purposes on properly designed circuitry.

Arfa

On Sat, 26 Jul 2014 01:47:18 +0100, "Arfa Daily"
wrote:



"Baron" wrote in message
...
Chris B. prodded the keyboard

On Fri, 25 Jul 2014 15:16:16 +0100, Baron
wrote:

Hi Chris,
That is a capacitor and should read O/C on an ohmeter. Lift one end
and re-check. You might find it's OK. In circuit measurements are
not always reliable !

Hi,

Thanks for the reply. I was thinking about it last night and I
figured it has to be C1006 leaking or shorted to ground. I just
took one end off and checked it - 120 ohms DCR.

Its dead ! Bin it.

I also notice it's slightly charred in one spot. So I will replace
it (and I will probably replace C1005 at the same time. My next
question is what to buy to replace it. It's listed as:

CAP, FXD, CER DI : 0.022 uf 20% 50V

Does that mean ceramic disc? I hope I can find one in that style
locally.

Its not a critical component. 0.022 uf is a common value and 50Vw is
typical. Try RS components or Element 14, Mouser there's lots to go
at.

--
Best Regards:
Baron.


Agreed. If it's hanging on the end of that feed resistor to deck, it's just
a decoupling cap, and anything of that sort of general value at that or
above voltage rating that will fit in the board, will be just fine. For test
purposes, you can run the 'scope quite happily with that cap just removed.
Most small-value rail decouplers like that one are only there for 'belt and
braces' purposes on properly designed circuitry.

Hello,

After reading your post I ran it with the cap still floating at one
end: 0.1 v across the resistor, +7.5 volts at pin 7 of the IC.
Interesting that it didn't mind being fed with less than +3v.

So presumably the cap failed and caused the resistor to char. Here's
the thing - the main board power schematic shows 25 or 30 of these
things. The processor board has 20 or so more. Are these things
failure prone or is the fact that these components were covered and
maybe got a little hotter than others likely to be a factor? I'm not
going to replace anything other than these two for now, but I'm
thinking of ordering a bunch of these:

http://www.digikey.ca/product-detail...844-ND/3726082

which is the closest thing I could find.

I have another question, what is the purpose of the 10 ohm resistors?
Is it to limit current if the IC shorts out?

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

In article ,
says...
So presumably the cap failed and caused the resistor to char. Here's
the thing - the main board power schematic shows 25 or 30 of these
things. The processor board has 20 or so more. Are these things
failure prone or is the fact that these components were covered and
maybe got a little hotter than others likely to be a factor? I'm not
going to replace anything other than these two for now, but I'm
thinking of ordering a bunch of these:



I do some work for my friends now and then and I just got a
CB radio in at home base for the second time..

The first time the signal meter was pegging when turned on, that
was caused by a 47uf 10v cap.

The second time, which is just last night, the squelch circuit failed
to operate and open. That was caused by a shorted capacitor in the local
by pass network, also a 47uf 10v cap.

Both these caps failed shorted and were the same values. Something
tells me I should replace all of these caps in the radio before
returning it.

P.S.

These caps failed shorted down below 10 ohms.

Jamie

En el artículo , Chris B.
escribió:

So presumably the cap failed and caused the resistor to char.

Yes. It's fairly unusual for that type to fail, but not unknown.

Here's
the thing - the main board power schematic shows 25 or 30 of these
things. The processor board has 20 or so more. Are these things
failure prone

no

or is the fact that these components were covered and
maybe got a little hotter than others likely to be a factor?

no

I'm not
going to replace anything other than these two for now

That's fine. Don't worry about the others

--
(\_/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

Chris B. prodded the keyboard


CAP, FXD, CER DI : 0.022 uf 20% 50V

Its not a critical component. 0.022 uf is a common value and 50Vw
is typical. Try RS components or Element 14, Mouser there's lots
to go at.

So presumably the cap failed and caused the resistor to char.

That's about the size of it !

I'm thinking of ordering a bunch of these:


http://www.digikey.ca/product-detail...844-ND/3726082


I wouldn't ! The link shows 22 pf as the value.

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

On 7/25/2014 4:13 PM, Baron wrote:
Chris B. prodded the keyboard

On Fri, 25 Jul 2014 15:16:16 +0100, Baron
wrote:

Hi Chris,
That is a capacitor and should read O/C on an ohmeter. Lift one end
and re-check. You might find it's OK. In circuit measurements are
not always reliable !

Hi,

Thanks for the reply. I was thinking about it last night and I
figured it has to be C1006 leaking or shorted to ground. I just
took one end off and checked it - 120 ohms DCR.

Its dead ! Bin it.

I also notice it's slightly charred in one spot. So I will replace
it (and I will probably replace C1005 at the same time. My next
question is what to buy to replace it. It's listed as:

CAP, FXD, CER DI : 0.022 uf 20% 50V

Does that mean ceramic disc? I hope I can find one in that style
locally.

Its not a critical component. 0.022 uf is a common value and 50Vw is
typical. Try RS components or Element 14, Mouser there's lots to go
at.

Remember for your troubleshooting pleasure, you have two identical
channels, makes it easy to compare known good to the defective one.
Mikek

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

"Baron" wrote in message
...
Chris B. prodded the keyboard


CAP, FXD, CER DI : 0.022 uf 20% 50V

Its not a critical component. 0.022 uf is a common value and 50Vw
is typical. Try RS components or Element 14, Mouser there's lots
to go at.

So presumably the cap failed and caused the resistor to char.

That's about the size of it !

I'm thinking of ordering a bunch of these:


http://www.digikey.ca/product-detail...844-ND/3726082


I wouldn't ! The link shows 22 pf as the value.

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

He
http://www.digikey.ca/product-detail...5-1-ND/1913290

On Sat, 26 Jul 2014 11:08:57 -0400, "Tom Miller"
wrote:


"Baron" wrote in message
...
Chris B. prodded the keyboard


CAP, FXD, CER DI : 0.022 uf 20% 50V

Its not a critical component. 0.022 uf is a common value and 50Vw
is typical. Try RS components or Element 14, Mouser there's lots
to go at.

So presumably the cap failed and caused the resistor to char.

That's about the size of it !

I'm thinking of ordering a bunch of these:


http://www.digikey.ca/product-detail...844-ND/3726082


I wouldn't ! The link shows 22 pf as the value.

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

He
http://www.digikey.ca/product-detail...5-1-ND/1913290


Yeesh, how embarassing. Can you tell I'm not used to working in units
smaller than micro? Thanks everyone for your help, I'm going to put
an order in and buy some other stuff from them that I can't get
locally (like decent solder wick). I'll post an update when I get it
done.

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

On 07/25/2014 07:16 AM, Baron wrote:
Hi Chris,
That is a capacitor and should read O/C on an ohmeter. Lift one end
and re-check. You might find it's OK. In circuit measurements are
not always reliable !


Discharged caps show increasing resistance as they charge, then show
open. If they read 0.0 Ohms they are shorted.

On 07/26/2014 09:28 AM, Chris B. wrote:
On Sat, 26 Jul 2014 11:08:57 -0400, "Tom Miller"
wrote:


"Baron" wrote in message
...
Chris B. prodded the keyboard


CAP, FXD, CER DI : 0.022 uf 20% 50V

Its not a critical component. 0.022 uf is a common value and 50Vw
is typical. Try RS components or Element 14, Mouser there's lots
to go at.

So presumably the cap failed and caused the resistor to char.

That's about the size of it !

I'm thinking of ordering a bunch of these:


http://www.digikey.ca/product-detail...844-ND/3726082


I wouldn't ! The link shows 22 pf as the value.

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

He
http://www.digikey.ca/product-detail...5-1-ND/1913290


Yeesh, how embarassing. Can you tell I'm not used to working in units
smaller than micro? Thanks everyone for your help, I'm going to put
an order in and buy some other stuff from them that I can't get
locally (like decent solder wick). I'll post an update when I get it
done.

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---


I embarrass myself way worse than that, don't sweat it!

dave prodded the keyboard

On 07/25/2014 07:16 AM, Baron wrote:
Hi Chris,
That is a capacitor and should read O/C on an ohmeter. Lift one
end
and re-check. You might find it's OK. In circuit measurements are
not always reliable !


Discharged caps show increasing resistance as they charge, then show
open. If they read 0.0 Ohms they are shorted.

I agree an electrolytic would, but 0.022uf !!!

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

Yeesh, how embarassing. Can you tell I'm not used to working in units
smaller than micro? Thanks everyone for your help, I'm going to put
an order in and buy some other stuff from them that I can't get
locally (like decent solder wick). I'll post an update when I get it
done.



If you buy decent solder wick that's in an airtight container, don't leave a
long tail exposed when you're done with using it, as it 'goes off' when
exposed to the air ...

Arfa

"dave" wrote in message
m...
On 07/25/2014 07:16 AM, Baron wrote:
Hi Chris,
That is a capacitor and should read O/C on an ohmeter. Lift one end
and re-check. You might find it's OK. In circuit measurements are
not always reliable !


Discharged caps show increasing resistance as they charge, then show open.
If they read 0.0 Ohms they are shorted.



Only if they have a large enough value that they want to draw more charging
current from the meter than it can supply quickly. Thus, you see the
'apparent' resistance climb over a long enough period of time to see.

0.022uF will demand such a low charging current that the meter will be able
to supply it near instantaneously, so you will likely never see anything of
significance on either an analogue or a digital meter, the reading being
open circuit pretty much from the off

Arfa

"0.022uF will demand such a low charging current that the meter will be able
to supply it near instantaneously, so you will likely never see anything of
significance on either an analogue or a digital meter, the reading being
open circuit pretty much from the off

Arfa "

You will on the high ohms scale of a VTVM. MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Us old guys are just so treatcherous. I love us.

Yeah, I was looking aat that good ole Fluke of moine, and then at a VTVM of mine. you know that if I want to measure like 27 megohms that Fluke is useless as dirt on frog tits. Well something like that. But that old VTVM the olman built is up to it.

Damn.

"0.022uF will demand such a low charging current that ..."

Not too fast now. I mean that the current only happens when you insist on charging quickly. Or discharging of course.