I realize that this is probably not the correct forum to ask this question, however with so many talented people out there who subscribe to this group I was hoping that someone would either know the answer to this or perhaps be able to direct me to a more appropriate group.

Some time ago I picked up a box of old mid 1950's Lionel trains, track, two small adjustable train transformers and some accessories. I just got finished going through the equipment, and with the addition of some new parts and labor have restored everything to good working order once again. The engine is a 2055 and it is married to a coal tender that has a whistle inside of it. The train motor operates on 0 - 16 VAC, but the whistle in the tender, (which is a small fan motor which blows air through some portals), I am told operates on DC. This DC voltage is somehow superimposed on the AC. The correct transformers for this set have levers that you would move to apply the DC to the track, operate the tender motor and blow the whistle, and would be either the KW or the ZW, neither of which came with the equipment in the box. After completing repairs, I confirmed that the tender whistle was working by taking the tender to a train show and trying it out on a test track.

Since the small transformers included with this set get hot and are too small I've been using my bench variac through an isolation transformer to test the train. I tried to see if I could blow the whistle by connecting my DC power supply to the track, but the current peaked at over 6 amps and took out the power supply fuse twice. The variac didn't like it either and started to growl. I figure the train motor as well as the transformer secondary must be loading the DC supply heavily, and perhaps vice versa. I'm not really sure whats happening here.

I subsequently found a larger transformer at another yard sale which is able to handle the current required to run the AC motor in he engine, but there is no whistle provision. I've set the train up in the play room temporarily with the larger transformer but it would really be nice if my 4 year old grandson could hear the whistle blow. Is it possible when the whistle is blown that the DC is being placed in series with the AC? Sounds crazy but I never tried that. This couldn't be very complicated. What am I missing here? Thanks, Lenny

On 02/02/2014 9:35 PM, wrote:
I realize that this is probably not the correct forum to ask this question, however with so many talented people out there who subscribe to this group I was hoping that someone would either know the answer to this or perhaps be able to direct me to a more appropriate group.

Some time ago I picked up a box of old mid 1950's Lionel trains, track, two small adjustable train transformers and some accessories. I just got finished going through the equipment, and with the addition of some new parts and labor have restored everything to good working order once again. The engine is a 2055 and it is married to a coal tender that has a whistle inside of it. The train motor operates on 0 - 16 VAC, but the whistle in the tender, (which is a small fan motor which blows air through some portals), I am told operates on DC. This DC voltage is somehow superimposed on the AC. The correct transformers for this set have levers that you would move to apply the DC to the track, operate the tender motor and blow the whistle, and would be either the KW or the ZW, neither of which came with the equipment in the box. After completing repairs, I confirmed that the tender whistle was working by taking the tender to a train show and trying it out on a test track.

Since the small transformers included with this set get hot and are too small I've been using my bench variac through an isolation transformer to test the train. I tried to see if I could blow the whistle by connecting my DC power supply to the track, but the current peaked at over 6 amps and took out the power supply fuse twice. The variac didn't like it either and started to growl. I figure the train motor as well as the transformer secondary must be loading the DC supply heavily, and perhaps vice versa. I'm not really sure whats happening here.

I subsequently found a larger transformer at another yard sale which is able to handle the current required to run the AC motor in he engine, but there is no whistle provision. I've set the train up in the play room temporarily with the larger transformer but it would really be nice if my 4 year old grandson could hear the whistle blow. Is it possible when the whistle is blown that the DC is being placed in series with the AC? Sounds crazy but I never tried that. This couldn't be very complicated. What am I missing here? Thanks, Lenny


Have you line isolated your variac? If not then you had a serious ground
loop flowing from the power mains to the power supply ground and that
was your original problem.

As I understand it, the DC was in parallel to the AC, but a separate
supply. No filter capacitors - Raw DC only straight from the bridge
rectifiers should work fine. A very simple circuit suitable for the
1930s when this was first implimented as I understand. It might even
been as simple as putting the bridge across the AC output momentarily
causing the horn to blow, and the train to slow down. A Double Pole
Double Throw switch would do that.

There is (was) a train shop in Toronto called Georges Trains on Mount
Pleasant (was there five or so years ago, haven't done a search) and
they were big on Lionel stuff and can easily answer the question if you
can't find anyone else.

John :-#)#

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(Please post followups or tech inquiries to the newsgroup)
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"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."

Thanks for your reply John. Yes the variac was isolated by means of an isolation transformer ahead of it. I essentially did what you mentioned. That is, I assumed that the DC output was placed in parallel with the AC train voltage, and did that from my DC bench supply. That's when I noticed the huge current draw on the DC supply. I was questioning if that was normal. Lenny.

On 02/03/2014 7:14 AM, wrote:
Thanks for your reply John. Yes the variac was isolated by means of an isolation transformer ahead of it. I essentially did what you mentioned. That is, I assumed that the DC output was placed in parallel with the AC train voltage, and did that from my DC bench supply. That's when I noticed the huge current draw on the DC supply. I was questioning if that was normal. Lenny.


In that case then the DC supply was essentially shorted out by the
secondary winding of the Variac.

I am pretty sure the only way this could work is as I described where
the AC/DC is switched back and forth with a DPDT switch - both voltages
can't be present at the same time.

John :-#)#

--
(Please post followups or tech inquiries to the newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
(604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."

wrote:



Since the small transformers included with this set get hot and are too
small I've been using my bench variac through an isolation transformer to
test the train. I tried to see if I could blow the whistle by connecting
my DC power supply to the track, but the current peaked at over 6 amps and
took out the power supply fuse twice. The variac didn't like it either and
started to growl. I figure the train motor as well as the transformer
secondary must be loading the DC supply heavily, and perhaps vice versa.
I'm not really sure whats happening here.
The locomotive motor should work fine on DC. So, just switch the track
between AC (loco only) or DC (loco plus whistle). My guess is the
ancient system just placed a selenium rectifier in series with one
transformer wire to go to pulsating DC. So, you ought to try putting
a silicon rectifier in series with your transformer. The way this works,
as far as I know, is you SUBSTITUTE pulsed DC for AC, not ADDING DC in
series with AC, as you tried. That probably put too much voltage on
the motors. The pulsed DC in the Lionel transformer may cause
saturation of the iron, and it may start buzzing or overheat. If that
is the case, then you'd need to put a bridge rectifier between the
transformer and the track, so the transformer still sees AC only.
I seem to recall the Lionel transformers with the whistle function had
a warning on them to only use the whistle for 10 seconds per minute or
something like that.

Jon

On 03/02/2014 05:35, wrote:
I realize that this is probably not the correct forum to ask this question, however with so many talented people out there who subscribe to this group I was hoping that someone would either know the answer to this or perhaps be able to direct me to a more appropriate group.

Some time ago I picked up a box of old mid 1950's Lionel trains, track, two small adjustable train transformers and some accessories. I just got finished going through the equipment, and with the addition of some new parts and labor have restored everything to good working order once again. The engine is a 2055 and it is married to a coal tender that has a whistle inside of it. The train motor operates on 0 - 16 VAC, but the whistle in the tender, (which is a small fan motor which blows air through some portals), I am told operates on DC. This DC voltage is somehow superimposed on the AC. The correct transformers for this set have levers that you would move to apply the DC to the track, operate the tender motor and blow the whistle, and would be either the KW or the ZW, neither of which came with the equipment in the box. After completing repairs, I confirmed that the tender whistle was working by taking the tender to a train show and trying it out on a test track.

Since the small transformers included with this set get hot and are too small I've been using my bench variac through an isolation transformer to test the train. I tried to see if I could blow the whistle by connecting my DC power supply to the track, but the current peaked at over 6 amps and took out the power supply fuse twice. The variac didn't like it either and started to growl. I figure the train motor as well as the transformer secondary must be loading the DC supply heavily, and perhaps vice versa. I'm not really sure whats happening here.

I subsequently found a larger transformer at another yard sale which is able to handle the current required to run the AC motor in he engine, but there is no whistle provision. I've set the train up in the play room temporarily with the larger transformer but it would really be nice if my 4 year old grandson could hear the whistle blow. Is it possible when the whistle is blown that the DC is being placed in series with the AC? Sounds crazy but I never tried that. This couldn't be very complicated. What am I missing here? Thanks, Lenny


Anything useful in Fran's video here?:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yP89...ilpage#t=29 1

On Sunday, February 2, 2014 11:35:58 PM UTC-6, wrote:
I realize that this is probably not the correct forum to ask this question, however with so many talented people out there who subscribe to this group I was hoping that someone would either know the answer to this or perhaps be able to direct me to a more appropriate group. Some time ago I picked up a box of old mid 1950's Lionel trains, track, two small adjustable train transformers and some accessories. I just got finished going through the equipment, and with the addition of some new parts and labor have restored everything to good working order once again. The engine is a 2055 and it is married to a coal tender that has a whistle inside of it. The train motor operates on 0 - 16 VAC, but the whistle in the tender, (which is a small fan motor which blows air through some portals), I am told operates on DC. This DC voltage is somehow superimposed on the AC. The correct transformers for this set have levers that you would move to apply the DC to the track, operate the tender motor and blow the whistle, and would be either the KW or the ZW, neither of which came with the equipment in the box. After completing repairs, I confirmed that the tender whistle was working by taking the tender to a train show and trying it out on a test track. Since the small transformers included with this set get hot and are too small I've been using my bench variac through an isolation transformer to test the train. I tried to see if I could blow the whistle by connecting my DC power supply to the track, but the current peaked at over 6 amps and took out the power supply fuse twice. The variac didn't like it either and started to growl. I figure the train motor as well as the transformer secondary must be loading the DC supply heavily, and perhaps vice versa. I'm not really sure whats happening here. I subsequently found a larger transformer at another yard sale which is able to handle the current required to run the AC motor in he engine, but there is no whistle provision. I've set the train up in the play room temporarily with the larger transformer but it would really be nice if my 4 year old grandson could hear the whistle blow. Is it possible when the whistle is blown that the DC is being placed in series with the AC? Sounds crazy but I never tried that. This couldn't be very complicated. What am I missing here? Thanks, Lenny

You can't put the DC in parallel wiith the AC. I would put the DC supply in series with the AC supply from the transformer secondary that is running the engine. You might have to reverse the polarity of the dc to get the whistle to work. Let us know if this works. OR, contact a member of your local toy train club and talk to them to find out for sure how this should be connected.

In article ,
says...
I subsequently found a larger transformer at another yard sale which is able to handle the current required to run the AC motor in he engine, but there is no whistle provision. I've set the train up in the play room temporarily with the larger transformer but it would really be nice if my 4 year old grandson could hear the whistle blow. Is it possible when the whistle is blown that the DC is being placed in series with the AC? Sounds crazy but I never tried that. This
couldn't be very complicated. What am I missing here? Thanks, Lenny



Yes, It's been far too long

you have a normally closed momentary switch across a
DIODE that is in line with your AC doing to the tracks.
Or One could use a knife switch like was done back then!

The motor in the engine should be a universal type, which
means it'll operate on either or. But the whistle is DC only..

I also seem to remember there was a polarity requirement and
different tricks were used operating different DC items on the engine.

Smoke and noise.! Make sure you use appropriate diode and put a
snubber circuit across it, otherwise Mr L could get angry and fully
collapse on you at the wrong time!

Jamie

I like the idea of a diode with a NC switch across it. I'd like to try that one first. Regarding snubber circuits, I have used them in the past across arcing contacts in AC switching equipment. A typical configuration was a .50 ohm wirewound resistor in series with a .10uf cap. What was it you were thinking of for across the diode? Lenny