http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/mainrelayfix/index.html

Next to the fourth picture, it says:

"Removal of old solder As much of the old solder as possible was
removed in preparation for re-soldering. It is possible to simply
re-flow the old solder, but this method is better. "

Does anyone agree with that?

This ia an automotve electical device, a Honda main engine relay and
fuel pump relay, with a resistor and 3 diodes, and has 24 solder spots
on the circuti board. It seems to have a lot of cold solder problems
after a few years.

When you guys resolder, do you just heat it up and add a little more
solder, or do you clean off the old solder and start fresh? Thrifty
guy that I am, it never occurred to me that people would routinely do
the seocnd.


He calls it dry solder. Maybe that's the automotive term.

"micky"

http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/mainrelayfix/index.html

Next to the fourth picture, it says:

"Removal of old solder As much of the old solder as possible was
removed in preparation for re-soldering. It is possible to simply
re-flow the old solder, but this method is better. "

Does anyone agree with that?

** Yep.


When you guys resolder, do you just heat it up and add a little more
solder, or do you clean off the old solder and start fresh? Thrifty
guy that I am, it never occurred to me that people would routinely do
the seocnd.


** Wicking ( or using a de-soldering gun) to get the old solder off is
needed to look at the component leads or pins before re-soldering

If the lead looks shiny and tinned all over - fine.

If the lead looks dark and dry of solder - not fine.

Also, there is now the issue of mixing dissimilar solders - ie leaded and
unleaded.

I use Multicore "Savbit" solder for all repairs as it will not absorb
copper, has higher than usual strength and a very good flux core.


..... Phil

In article ,
micky wrote:

http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/mainrelayfix/index.html

Next to the fourth picture, it says:

"Removal of old solder As much of the old solder as possible was
removed in preparation for re-soldering. It is possible to simply
re-flow the old solder, but this method is better. "

Does anyone agree with that?

I think "it depends".

There may be some advantages to clearing off the old solder and
replacing it entirely. Two possible such:

(1) Some years ago I had a problem with an audio amplifier...
intermittent solder joints. The manufacturer informed me that
their contract assembly house had "use the wrong solder" in the
wave-solder machine, and that this had resulted in a poor joint on
the transistor connections. I'm not sure whether it was a poor
bond due to the alloy used, or whether there was a difference in
thermal expansion rates which caused the joint to suffer more
stress due to power-on-heat/power-off-cold cycling.

The manufactuer specifically recommended that I strip out the old
solder and replace it.

(2) In some cases, the problem with a bad solder joint might be due to
the contact materials being soldered - oxidation, other
contamination, or an alloy which didn't "wet" well with the
solder/flus combination originally used.

In this case, stripping off the old solder, perhaps cleaning or
lightly scraping the metal, applying some proper flux to the
metal, and re-soldering would give you the best chance of a good
solder bond. Simply re-flowing the existing connection would not
necessarily get enough flux into the joint area to address any
problems on the contact surfaces.

Issue (2) might hold, even if the joint was originally OK. If the
solder bond has cracked away from the contact metal, then the metal
surface has had the oppotunity to oxidize... and so getting some good
flus into the contact surface when re-soldering is probably a good
idea.

--
Dave Platt AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

On Mon, 22 Aug 2011 21:06:55 -0400, micky
wrote:

http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/mainrelayfix/index.html

Next to the fourth picture, it says:

"Removal of old solder As much of the old solder as possible was
removed in preparation for re-soldering. It is possible to simply
re-flow the old solder, but this method is better. "

Does anyone agree with that?

Yes. Especially when the old solder is leaded, and the new solder is
un-leaded. If I'm not sure, I clean the joint with a solder sucker
and maybe braid just to be sure.

This ia an automotve electical device, a Honda main engine relay and
fuel pump relay, with a resistor and 3 diodes, and has 24 solder spots
on the circuti board. It seems to have a lot of cold solder problems
after a few years.

RoHS unleaded solder which is not very strong. If you want strength,
use silver solder. My guess is that the engine control board gets
quite a pounding under the hood, and may have top heavy components
trying to flex the leads. If this is a problem, you might get a big
improvement if you can support the top heavy components with RTV,
silicon rubber, or hot melt glue. That will take the load off the
solder connection.

When you guys resolder, do you just heat it up and add a little more
solder, or do you clean off the old solder and start fresh? Thrifty
guy that I am, it never occurred to me that people would routinely do
the seocnd.

I do both. When I know that I'm using the same type of solder, I just
reheat and add more solder (with flux). If I don't know the solder
type, I remove as much of the old solder as possible.

He calls it dry solder. Maybe that's the automotive term.

I've never heard of that term.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

micky wrote:
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/mainrelayfix/index.html

Next to the fourth picture, it says:

"Removal of old solder As much of the old solder as possible was
removed in preparation for re-soldering. It is possible to simply
re-flow the old solder, but this method is better. "

Does anyone agree with that?

Yes. Re-flowing is *possible* but risky, because
it generally results in a oxide-polluted 'cold' joint.

In either event, it is critical to apply separate flux
to the joint to float oxides out during the soldering
process. The improvement in quality is substantial.

This ia an automotve electical device, a Honda main engine relay and
fuel pump relay, with a resistor and 3 diodes, and has 24 solder spots
on the circuti board. It seems to have a lot of cold solder problems
after a few years.

When you guys resolder, do you just heat it up and add a little more
solder, or do you clean off the old solder and start fresh?

Honestly, I dab flux on the joint and reheat. It is quick
and effective. For joints that appear cold after that operation,
I remove the old solder, re-flux and use good quality leaded
solder. (Then *always* clean with a 50/50 mix of alcohol and naphtha).
That hasn't failed yet.

Thrifty guy that I am, it never occurred to me that people would
routinely do the seocnd.

After your first 10 repairs it goes a lot faster.

He calls it dry solder. Maybe that's the automotive term.

He meant to say:
""Cold" solder joints (a frosted appearance),"

Here is a classic example. Note the frosted
appearance of the solder and the lack of 'wetting'
on the pin:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...lder_joint.jpg

--Winston

"micky"

He calls it dry solder.


** In fact he said " Dry solder joint " - a very common term.

The word dry refers to a lack of " wetting " of one or both the metal
surfaces to be soldered.

If an otherwise solderable metal surface is contaminated with oxides or
similar, hot solder will simply refuse to alloy with it and there will be no
or only minimal electrical connection and no mechanical strength.

A frosted appearance on the joint is generally due to movement while
cooling, insufficient heat or the use of lead free solder.


..... Phil

On Aug 22, 6:06*pm, micky wrote:
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/mainrelayfix/index.html

Next to the fourth picture, it says:

"Removal of old solder * * As much of the old solder as possible was
removed in preparation for re-soldering. It is possible to simply
re-flow the old solder, but this method is better. "

Does anyone agree with that?

This ia an automotve electical device, a Honda main engine relay and
fuel pump relay, with a resistor and 3 diodes, and has 24 solder spots
on the circuti board. *It seems to have a lot of cold solder problems
after a few years.

*When you guys resolder, do you just heat it up and add a little more
solder, or do you clean off the old solder and start fresh? * Thrifty
guy that I am, it never occurred to me that people would routinely do
the seocnd.

He calls it dry solder. *Maybe that's the automotive term.

What the other say is true but I wanted to add, those pictures of the
'good' soldering job is substandard soldering. After cleaning off the
old solder with a solder sucker and/or wick, the old flux should be
removed and again after the new soldering.

G²

What the other say is true but I wanted to add, those pictures of the
'good' soldering job is substandard soldering. After cleaning off the
old solder with a solder sucker and/or wick, the old flux should be
removed and again after the new soldering.


** What for ?

Solder flux is normally harmless and routinely left behind by many
manufacturers.



..... Phil

Winston wrote in message
...
micky wrote:
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/mainrelayfix/index.html

Next to the fourth picture, it says:

"Removal of old solder As much of the old solder as possible was
removed in preparation for re-soldering. It is possible to simply
re-flow the old solder, but this method is better. "

Does anyone agree with that?

Yes. Re-flowing is *possible* but risky, because
it generally results in a oxide-polluted 'cold' joint.

In either event, it is critical to apply separate flux
to the joint to float oxides out during the soldering
process. The improvement in quality is substantial.

This ia an automotve electical device, a Honda main engine relay and
fuel pump relay, with a resistor and 3 diodes, and has 24 solder spots
on the circuti board. It seems to have a lot of cold solder problems
after a few years.

When you guys resolder, do you just heat it up and add a little more
solder, or do you clean off the old solder and start fresh?

Honestly, I dab flux on the joint and reheat. It is quick
and effective. For joints that appear cold after that operation,
I remove the old solder, re-flux and use good quality leaded
solder. (Then *always* clean with a 50/50 mix of alcohol and naphtha).
That hasn't failed yet.

Thrifty guy that I am, it never occurred to me that people would
routinely do the seocnd.

After your first 10 repairs it goes a lot faster.

He calls it dry solder. Maybe that's the automotive term.

He meant to say:
""Cold" solder joints (a frosted appearance),"

Here is a classic example. Note the frosted
appearance of the solder and the lack of 'wetting'
on the pin:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...lder_joint.jpg

--Winston


There's me thinking all those decades that cold solder joint meant lack of
sweating, ie lack of wetting (melding) to the metal surface due to lack of
heating

On Mon, 22 Aug 2011 19:02:51 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 22 Aug 2011 21:06:55 -0400, micky wrote:

He calls it dry solder. Maybe that's the automotive term.

I've never heard of that term.

I think that is a left-ponder/right-ponder 'distinction'.

N_Cook wrote:

(...)

There's me thinking all those decades that cold solder joint meant lack of
sweating, ie lack of wetting (melding) to the metal surface due to lack of
heating

It can.

A poor joint can result from lots of different
things. An overheated joint can also exhibit
'dewetting' because of rapid corrosion growth.

In casual Googling just now, I see some really
misleading information about proper electronic
soldering technique. That's a pity, because each
article I saw contains several good ideas with a
real stinker thrown in.

In one case, the user is cautioned (and I am not
making this up):
"The use of separate acid flux paste (e.g. as used
by plumbers) should NEVER be necessary in normal
electronics applications because electronics-grade
solder already contains the correct grade of flux!"
http://www.epemag.wimborne.co.uk/solderfaq.htm

Well, of course one would never use *acid* flux on
an electrical or electronic joint. One uses a
flux compatible with one's properly selected solder.

In another case, the poor reader is bombarded
with information about 5 different kinds of solder,
3 of which should never be used on electronics.
http://www.elexp.com/t_solder.htm
They go on to imply that added flux is *always*
a bad idea. This is nonsense. Added flux
compatible with your properly selected solder is
*always* a good idea.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_NU2ruzyc4
This video is difficult to watch for folks that
already know how to do electronic soldering because
it illustrates some really bad technique, initially.

It does go on to illustrate good technique but still
does not emphasize fluxing and joint prep properly IMHO.


--Winston

Allodoxaphobia wrote:
On Mon, 22 Aug 2011 19:02:51 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 22 Aug 2011 21:06:55 -0400, micky wrote:

He calls it dry solder. Maybe that's the automotive term.

I've never heard of that term.

I think that is a left-ponder/right-ponder 'distinction'.

Naaah. I see that 'dry solder joint' is a real term.
It is a variety of 'cold solder' joint with insufficiently
wetted parts.

Avoid 'dry' joints by using careful joint preparation and
fluxing, proper soldering tools and techniques.

--Winston

On Tue, 23 Aug 2011 07:12:08 -0700, Winston
wrote:

Naaah. I see that 'dry solder joint' is a real term.
It is a variety of 'cold solder' joint with insufficiently
wetted parts.

Well, using Google:
http://www.pcuser.com.au/pcuser/hs2.nsf/lookup+1/2BA1DD3A7AF26E20CA256F2500358412
and a few others. It seems like it's a real term, but not very
common.



--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 23 Aug 2011 07:12:08 -0700,
wrote:

Naaah. I see that 'dry solder joint' is a real term.
It is a variety of 'cold solder' joint with insufficiently
wetted parts.

Well, using Google:
http://www.pcuser.com.au/pcuser/hs2.nsf/lookup+1/2BA1DD3A7AF26E20CA256F2500358412
and a few others. It seems like it's a real term, but not very
common.

I agree.
I had to look it up too.

--Winston --Eschewing kerfuffle; abjuring obfuscation.

On 23/08/2011 15:04, Allodoxaphobia wrote:
On Mon, 22 Aug 2011 19:02:51 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 22 Aug 2011 21:06:55 -0400, micky wrote:

He calls it dry solder. Maybe that's the automotive term.

I've never heard of that term.

I think that is a left-ponder/right-ponder 'distinction'.

Dry Joint = UK
Cold solder = US

Thus it ever shall be

Ron(UK)

On Tuesday, August 23, 2011 12:48:06 AM UTC-7, Phil Allison wrote:

... After cleaning off the
old solder with a solder sucker and/or wick, the old flux should be
removed and again after the new soldering.


** What for ?

Solder flux is normally harmless and routinely left behind by many
manufacturers.

My favorite flux (water-soluble) isn't really compatible with resin-type
no-clean fluxes. So, cleaning off the old flux helps me redo the joint.
It's possible, too, that 'hot enough' iron for my flux is not suitable
to fully activate the (unknown, foreign) original flux residue.

It's also possible that what looks like flux is actually someone's
candlewax drip. Cleaning first is cheap insurance.

On Aug 23, 12:48*am, "Phil Allison" wrote:


What the other say is true but I wanted to add, those pictures of the
'good' soldering job is substandard soldering. After cleaning off the
old solder with a solder sucker and/or wick, the old flux should be
removed and again after the new soldering.

** What for ?

*Solder flux is normally harmless and routinely left behind by many
manufacturers.

.... * Phil

Not the good ones. So, it's OK to be a slob just because you can?
********.

G²

wrote:

On Aug 23, 12:48 am, "Phil Allison" wrote:


What the other say is true but I wanted to add, those pictures of the
'good' soldering job is substandard soldering. After cleaning off the
old solder with a solder sucker and/or wick, the old flux should be
removed and again after the new soldering.

** What for ?

Solder flux is normally harmless and routinely left behind by many
manufacturers.

.... Phil

Not the good ones. So, it's OK to be a slob just because you can?
********.


Obviously, Phil has never done NASA or NATO approved soldering.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

"Phil Allison"

What the other say is true but I wanted to add, those pictures of the
'good' soldering job is substandard soldering. After cleaning off the
old solder with a solder sucker and/or wick, the old flux should be
removed and again after the new soldering.

** What for ?

Solder flux is normally harmless and routinely left behind by many
manufacturers.


Not the good ones.

** Circular argument.

Solder flux IS routinely left behind by many major manufacturers ( both
now and for decades into the past) and clearly does no harm.


So, it's OK to be a slob just because you can?


** Seems to be the way you go about YOUR thinking.

**** off - imbecile.

On Aug 23, 9:19*pm, "Phil Allison" wrote:


"Phil Allison"

What the other say is true but I wanted to add, those pictures of the
'good' soldering job is substandard soldering. After cleaning off the
old solder with a solder sucker and/or wick, the old flux should be
removed and again after the new soldering.

** What for ?

Solder flux is normally harmless and routinely left behind by many
manufacturers.

Not the good ones.

** Circular argument.

Solder flux *IS *routinely left behind by many major manufacturers ( both
now and for decades into the past) and clearly does no harm.

*So, it's OK to be a slob just because you can?

** Seems to be the way you go about YOUR thinking.

* * **** off - *imbecile.
back at ya doofus

G²

On Aug 23, 9:19*pm, "Phil Allison" wrote:


"Phil Allison"

What the other say is true but I wanted to add, those pictures of the
'good' soldering job is substandard soldering. After cleaning off the
old solder with a solder sucker and/or wick, the old flux should be
removed and again after the new soldering.

** What for ?

Solder flux is normally harmless and routinely left behind by many
manufacturers.

Not the good ones.

** Circular argument.

Solder flux *IS *routinely left behind by many major manufacturers ( both
now and for decades into the past) and clearly does no harm.

*So, it's OK to be a slob just because you can?

** Seems to be the way you go about YOUR thinking.

* * **** off - *imbecile.

Look at the boards in you PC. See any flux?

G²

"Phil Allison"


"Phil Allison"

What the other say is true but I wanted to add, those pictures of the
'good' soldering job is substandard soldering. After cleaning off the
old solder with a solder sucker and/or wick, the old flux should be
removed and again after the new soldering.

** What for ?

Solder flux is normally harmless and routinely left behind by many
manufacturers.

Not the good ones.

** Circular argument.

Solder flux IS routinely left behind by many major manufacturers ( both
now and for decades into the past) and clearly does no harm.

So, it's OK to be a slob just because you can?

** Seems to be the way you go about YOUR thinking.

**** off - imbecile.


Look at the boards in you PC. See any flux?


** False argument again.

If leaving the flux behind on a PCB were a very bad thing, then you would
NEVER see it done by any equipment makers.

BTW:

Never hear of " NO clean " flux ???

Imbecile.



..... Phil

On Aug 23, 9:51*pm, "Phil Allison" wrote:

snip

Look at the boards in your PC. See any flux?

** False argument again.

If leaving the flux behind on a PCB were a very bad thing, *then
you would
NEVER see it done by any equipment makers.

BTW:

Never hear of * " NO clean " *flux *???

Imbecile.

.... *Phillys

Yeah. It's crap. You seem to be unaware that de-soldering in the old
flux will start to burn it and make it somewhat conductive and if not
cleaned off can cause erratic operation in high impedance
systems.Cleaning it off is therefore a good practice.

G²

Look at the boards in your PC. See any flux?

** False argument again.

If leaving the flux behind on a PCB were a very bad thing, then
you would NEVER see it done by any equipment makers.

BTW:

Never hear of " NO clean " flux ???

Imbecile.


Yeah. It's crap.

** You are a ****ing, nut case moron.

You seem to be unaware that de-soldering in the old
flux will start to burn it and make it somewhat conductive


** Horse ****.

FOAD you stinking lunatic.


..... Phil

wrote:

On Aug 23, 9:19 pm, "Phil Allison" wrote:


"Phil Allison"

What the other say is true but I wanted to add, those pictures of the
'good' soldering job is substandard soldering. After cleaning off the
old solder with a solder sucker and/or wick, the old flux should be
removed and again after the new soldering.

** What for ?

Solder flux is normally harmless and routinely left behind by many
manufacturers.

Not the good ones.

** Circular argument.

Solder flux IS routinely left behind by many major manufacturers ( both
now and for decades into the past) and clearly does no harm.

So, it's OK to be a slob just because you can?

** Seems to be the way you go about YOUR thinking.

**** off - imbecile.
back at ya doofus


If his mother had refused to **** an imbecile, Phil wouldn't be here.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

On Aug 24, 12:31*am, "Phil Allison" wrote:


* Look at the boards in your PC. See any flux?
*
* ** False argument again.
*
* If leaving the flux behind on a PCB were a very bad thing, then *you would *NEVER see it done by any equipment makers.

*
* BTW:
*
* Never hear of " NO clean " flux ???
*
* Imbecile.
*

Yeah. It's crap.

** You are a ****ing, nut case moron.

You seem to be unaware that de-soldering in the old
flux will start to burn it and make it somewhat conductive

** Horse ****.

*FOAD you stinking lunatic.

.... *Phil

Since I'm the one who got the system working by removing the solder
flux, I know it isn't equine excrement.

Have a nice day if you can.

G²

On Mon, 22 Aug 2011 20:42:34 -0700, Winston
wrote:

micky wrote:
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/mainrelayfix/index.html

Next to the fourth picture, it says:

"Removal of old solder As much of the old solder as possible was
removed in preparation for re-soldering. It is possible to simply
re-flow the old solder, but this method is better. "

Does anyone agree with that?

Yes. Re-flowing is *possible* but risky, because
it generally results in a oxide-polluted 'cold' joint.

Finding more webpages on how to fix this car, I came across this,
probably from a different guy:
"It is likely that a layer of hard oxide has built up inside the
solder joint. The layer of hard oxide has to be removed by
desoldering. Other than this, there are no known mechanical problem
with the main relay. "

FTR, this followed "The Honda or Acura turns over but won't start in
hot weather is a symptom of a main relay going bad. This is the result
of the poor solder application from the factory. As a consequence,
raise areas on the joint indicate a "dry joint" which can lead to an
open circuit. The dry, open circuit is the main cause of no start.
This is partly caused by the buildup of heat on the terminals which
expand, contract and subject to vibrations.."

The relay is under the dash, so doesn't get the heat of the engine,
but it seems just the heat of the sun, inside a closed car, then
cooling off every day, thousands of times, causes problems, especially
in the summer. The first guy recommends resoldering this main relay
(fuel injectors and fuel pump) in any car over 8 years old.

The second guy acutally has an enalarged photo of the circuit board
with several joints marked and the symptoms when each is bad, whn you
hold the cursor over the circle! This must be a really common
problem.
http://techauto.tripod.com/mainrelay.htm

And a big tutorial on bad solder joints and resoldering.

But there are wackos who do great detail work too, so I didn't take
his oxide story seriously until you guys confirmed it.

In either event, it is critical to apply separate flux
to the joint to float oxides out during the soldering
process. The improvement in quality is substantial.

I see.

This ia an automotve electical device, a Honda main engine relay and
fuel pump relay, with a resistor and 3 diodes, and has 24 solder spots
on the circuti board. It seems to have a lot of cold solder problems
after a few years.

A 2001 Honda Accord EX, but all Hondas for the last 15 years seem to
use this part.

When you guys resolder, do you just heat it up and add a little more
solder, or do you clean off the old solder and start fresh?

Honestly, I dab flux on the joint and reheat. It is quick
and effective. For joints that appear cold after that operation,
I remove the old solder, re-flux and use good quality leaded
solder. (Then *always* clean with a 50/50 mix of alcohol and naphtha).

Dang. I never clean joints I have soldered. I don't think
anyone ever told me to before.

That hasn't failed yet.

Thrifty guy that I am, it never occurred to me that people would
routinely do the seocnd.

After your first 10 repairs it goes a lot faster.

He calls it dry solder. Maybe that's the automotive term.

He meant to say:
""Cold" solder joints (a frosted appearance),"

Here is a classic example. Note the frosted
appearance of the solder and the lack of 'wetting'
on the pin:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...lder_joint.jpg

--Winston

Thanks, and thanks everyone.

On Tue, 23 Aug 2011 07:07:04 -0700, Winston
wrote:

N_Cook wrote:

(...)

There's me thinking all those decades that cold solder joint meant lack of
sweating, ie lack of wetting (melding) to the metal surface due to lack of
heating

Me. too.

It can.

Yeah, but I thought that's what it always meant. In part, I'm
sure, because from age 9 to 19, all I had was a wood-burning iron,
which I never used to burn wood, and which was just a little too cold
to solder with well. It worked. but in the process I had loads of
cold solder joints that were really cold.

A poor joint can result from lots of different
things. An overheated joint can also exhibit
'dewetting' because of rapid corrosion growth.

In casual Googling just now, I see some really
misleading information about proper electronic
soldering technique. That's a pity, because each
article I saw contains several good ideas with a
real stinker thrown in.

In one case, the user is cautioned (and I am not
making this up):
"The use of separate acid flux paste (e.g. as used
by plumbers) should NEVER be necessary in normal
electronics applications because electronics-grade
solder already contains the correct grade of flux!"
http://www.epemag.wimborne.co.uk/solderfaq.htm

Well, of course one would never use *acid* flux on
an electrical or electronic joint. One uses a
flux compatible with one's properly selected solder.

In another case, the poor reader is bombarded
with information about 5 different kinds of solder,
3 of which should never be used on electronics.
http://www.elexp.com/t_solder.htm
They go on to imply that added flux is *always*
a bad idea. This is nonsense. Added flux
compatible with your properly selected solder is
*always* a good idea.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_NU2ruzyc4
This video is difficult to watch for folks that
already know how to do electronic soldering because
it illustrates some really bad technique, initially.

These are the reason I didnt' trust what I'd read about having to
desolder before resoldering. A lot of bad info out there, by people
who mean well.

It does go on to illustrate good technique but still
does not emphasize fluxing and joint prep properly IMHO.


--Winston

micky wrote:
On Tue, 23 Aug 2011 07:07:04 -0700,
wrote:

N_Cook wrote:

(...)

There's me thinking all those decades that cold solder joint meant lack of
sweating, ie lack of wetting (melding) to the metal surface due to lack of
heating

Me. too.

It can.

Yeah, but I thought that's what it always meant. In part, I'm
sure, because from age 9 to 19, all I had was a wood-burning iron,
which I never used to burn wood, and which was just a little too cold
to solder with well. It worked. but in the process I had loads of
cold solder joints that were really cold.

Insufficient heat will do it for sure.

If you still have that tool, I think it would be very
interesting to see if you could get good quality joints
by polishing the parts to be joined and using added flux
before applying heat.

Wood burning tools can generally achieve 500 F and
60/40 solder melts at ~476 F.

I'd never recommend this as a normal practice because there
is not enough thermal headroom to do a consistently good
job with larger joints and 60/40 solder is inferior to
63/37 solder for electronic applications, all else being
equal. Still, it would be interesting, yes?

(...)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_NU2ruzyc4
This video is difficult to watch for folks that
already know how to do electronic soldering because
it illustrates some really bad technique, initially.

These are the reason I didnt' trust what I'd read about having to
desolder before resoldering. A lot of bad info out there, by people
who mean well.

I understand the reason why they show the poor technique
initially. Hopefully, a user would recognize their way
of doing it and have a chance to correct. This isn't too
fantastic; I've seen some astoundingly bad technique used
by techs in companies that you would instantly recognize
the names of.

I got out of the biz before having to do *any*
'lead free' electronic soldering. I suspect that one
could do acceptable repairs with the proper tools.
I wouldn't expect that the proper techniques would
change much at all.

--Winston

On Wed, 24 Aug 2011 17:31:15 +1000, Phil Allison wrote:




Look at the boards in your PC. See any flux?

** False argument again.

If leaving the flux behind on a PCB were a very bad thing, then
you would NEVER see it done by any equipment makers.

BTW:

Never hear of " NO clean " flux ???

Imbecile.


Yeah. It's crap.

** You are a ****ing, nut case moron.

Too bad your parents didn't sue the condom company for your unwanted
conception.



--
Live Fast Die Young, Leave A Pretty Corpse

** This loon is a Massive TROLL !!


Since I'm the one who got the system working by removing the solder
flux, I know it isn't equine excrement.


** Another nonsense argument.

The loony bins are full of crazies like this POS.

micky wrote:
On Mon, 22 Aug 2011 20:42:34 -0700,
wrote:

(...)

The second guy acutally has an enalarged photo of the circuit board
with several joints marked and the symptoms when each is bad, whn you
hold the cursor over the circle! This must be a really common
problem.
http://techauto.tripod.com/mainrelay.htm

And a big tutorial on bad solder joints and resoldering.

I agree with just about everything presented on that page.
This relay board is likely to be corroded in the defective
joints, so I certainly see that removing the old solder
is a very Good Idea.

However:
1) Dab compatible flux on each joint before soldering.
A) I use standard old rosin flux so I selected a
matching liquid flux. I apply it from a HDPE
flux bottle.
http://assemblyoutfitters.com/images...lux-bottle.jpg
For maximum convenience, the stuff is available
in 'pen' form too:
http://theledguy.chainreactionweb.co...-1000-0186.jpg
2) The advice to clean the board with steel wool is
extremely risky. Fine metal hairs are not something
you want in an electronic assembly. Use an acid
brush and a flux bottle full of 50/50 alcohol/naphtha.

But there are wackos who do great detail work too, so I didn't take
his oxide story seriously until you guys confirmed it.

In either event, it is critical to apply separate flux
to the joint to float oxides out during the soldering
process. The improvement in quality is substantial.

I see.

(...)

A 2001 Honda Accord EX, but all Hondas for the last 15 years seem to
use this part.

(...)

Honestly, I dab flux on the joint and reheat. It is quick
and effective. For joints that appear cold after that operation,
I remove the old solder, re-flux and use good quality leaded
solder. (Then *always* clean with a 50/50 mix of alcohol and naphtha).

Dang. I never clean joints I have soldered. I don't think
anyone ever told me to before.

Fluxes work by dissolving metal and suspending oxides.
They don't know when their job is complete. Sooooooo....

(....)

Thanks, and thanks everyone.

Please let us know how it goes.

--Winston

Dave U. Random wrote:
cut
Too bad yer mother
cut

Do you copy/paste this abuse ****?

Why advertise that you are totally deprived of social skills?

On Wed, 24 Aug 2011 12:08:14 -0700, Winston
wrote:

micky wrote:
On Tue, 23 Aug 2011 07:07:04 -0700,
wrote:

N_Cook wrote:

(...)

There's me thinking all those decades that cold solder joint meant lack of
sweating, ie lack of wetting (melding) to the metal surface due to lack of
heating

Me. too.

It can.

Yeah, but I thought that's what it always meant. In part, I'm
sure, because from age 9 to 19, all I had was a wood-burning iron,
which I never used to burn wood, and which was just a little too cold
to solder with well. It worked. but in the process I had loads of
cold solder joints that were really cold.

Insufficient heat will do it for sure.

If you still have that tool, I think it would be very

The whole story is this. When I was 9, I was given a wood-burning
iron with two extra tips and a finished wooden box to hold eveyrhing
for my 9th brithday. Plus about 4 piieces of wood with sketches on
them that I was supposed to brun lines on.

I liked it. Just then my older brother announced that his could be
fixed, and my mother announced that we could return mine. Now I had
hand-me-down toys and hand-me-down clothes all my life, and I didn't
mind at all, but this time they were going to snatch it right out of
my hands. I threw a tantrum, my last one. And I got to keep my
iron.

But then I felt guilty. I never burned wood but i soldered with it
for 5 to 7 years, until something in the solder ate a hole in the tip
and the iron stopped working. Then I got my brother's iron, fixed
it, and used that -- no longer feelign guilty, in fact retroactively
not guilty -- for the same length of time, until it wore out the same
way. Finally,at age 19 to 23, I bought myself a real soldering iron,
with replaceble elements and tips.

What is it in the solder that eats up my wood burning irons and the
tips. Oh, you said that in the other post: "Fluxes work by
dissolving metal and suspending oxides.They don't know when their job
is complete. Sooooooo.... "


interesting to see if you could get good quality joints
by polishing the parts to be joined and using added flux
before applying heat.

Wood burning tools can generally achieve 500 F and
60/40 solder melts at ~476 F.

I'd never recommend this as a normal practice because there
is not enough thermal headroom to do a consistently good
job with larger joints and 60/40 solder is inferior to
63/37 solder for electronic applications, all else being
equal. Still, it would be interesting, yes?

I didn't know anything about different solders and lower melting
tempersatures. Didn't know they existed, and it never occurred to me
that would help.

(...)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_NU2ruzyc4
This video is difficult to watch for folks that
already know how to do electronic soldering because
it illustrates some really bad technique, initially.

These are the reason I didnt' trust what I'd read about having to
desolder before resoldering. A lot of bad info out there, by people
who mean well.

I understand the reason why they show the poor technique
initially. Hopefully, a user would recognize their way
of doing it and have a chance to correct. This isn't too
fantastic; I've seen some astoundingly bad technique used
by techs in companies that you would instantly recognize
the names of.

I got out of the biz before having to do *any*
'lead free' electronic soldering. I suspect that one
could do acceptable repairs with the proper tools.
I wouldn't expect that the proper techniques would
change much at all.

Probably not, from what little I know. .

--Winston

On Wed, 24 Aug 2011 16:41:57 -0700, Winston
wrote:

micky wrote:
On Mon, 22 Aug 2011 20:42:34 -0700,
wrote:

(...)

The second guy acutally has an enalarged photo of the circuit board
with several joints marked and the symptoms when each is bad, whn you
hold the cursor over the circle! This must be a really common
problem.
http://techauto.tripod.com/mainrelay.htm

And a big tutorial on bad solder joints and resoldering.

I agree with just about everything presented on that page.
This relay board is likely to be corroded in the defective
joints, so I certainly see that removing the old solder
is a very Good Idea.

However:
1) Dab compatible flux on each joint before soldering.
A) I use standard old rosin flux so I selected a
matching liquid flux. I apply it from a HDPE
flux bottle.
http://assemblyoutfitters.com/images...lux-bottle.jpg
For maximum convenience, the stuff is available
in 'pen' form too:
http://theledguy.chainreactionweb.co...-1000-0186.jpg

I'll look for one of these. I have some liquid flux, but I can't
remember ifit's for electronic soldering, or copper plumbing! I'll
check. It's by Oatey, so I guess it's for plumbing. :-) I'll see
if I can find some flux before Sunday.

2) The advice to clean the board with steel wool is
extremely risky. Fine metal hairs are not something
you want in an electronic assembly. Use an acid
brush and a flux bottle full of 50/50 alcohol/naphtha.

I hadn't read that line yet, but I think I would have had sense enough
not to do it. Thanks for warning me.

But there are wackos who do great detail work too, so I didn't take
his oxide story seriously until you guys confirmed it.

In either event, it is critical to apply separate flux
to the joint to float oxides out during the soldering
process. The improvement in quality is substantial.

I see.

(...)

A 2001 Honda Accord EX, but all Hondas for the last 15 years seem to
use this part.

(...)

Honestly, I dab flux on the joint and reheat. It is quick
and effective. For joints that appear cold after that operation,
I remove the old solder, re-flux and use good quality leaded
solder. (Then *always* clean with a 50/50 mix of alcohol and naphtha).

Dang. I never clean joints I have soldered. I don't think
anyone ever told me to before.

Fluxes work by dissolving metal and suspending oxides.
They don't know when their job is complete. Sooooooo....

(....)

Thanks, and thanks everyone.

Please let us know how it goes.

She works almost every day, so iIt's scheduled for Sunday now. The
weather says that Hurricane Irene will be off the coast of Delaware
about that time, but I can't tell if it will be raining hard in
Baltimore or not.

If the weather is good enough, maybe I can let you know by then.

--Winston

micky wrote:

(...)

Finally,at age 19 to 23, I bought myself a real soldering iron,
with replaceble elements and tips.

Good on ya!

What is it in the solder that eats up my wood burning irons and the
tips. Oh, you said that in the other post: "Fluxes work by
dissolving metal and suspending oxides.They don't know when their job
is complete. Sooooooo.... "

I suspect that is the case. Even the mild rosin flux
in 'electronic solder' is an acid:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flux_(m...)#Rosin_fluxes

Repeated exposure of the iron tip to acid at high temperature
is bound to cause pitting. As you know, soldering tips are
plated to limit this damage.

interesting to see if you could get good quality joints
by polishing the parts to be joined and using added flux
before applying heat.

Wood burning tools can generally achieve 500 F and
60/40 solder melts at ~476 F.

I'd never recommend this as a normal practice because there
is not enough thermal headroom to do a consistently good
job with larger joints and 60/40 solder is inferior to
63/37 solder for electronic applications, all else being
equal. Still, it would be interesting, yes?

I didn't know anything about different solders and lower melting
tempersatures. Didn't know they existed, and it never occurred to me
that would help.

The flux is magical stuff and proper 63/37 solder
has a somewhat lower melting temperature (362 F)
than the outmoded 60/40 alloy.

Combined, they might have allowed you to make good
quality joints with a marginal iron.
I don't know for sure, though.

(...)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_NU2ruzyc4
This video is difficult to watch for folks that
already know how to do electronic soldering because
it illustrates some really bad technique, initially.

These are the reason I didnt' trust what I'd read about having to
desolder before resoldering. A lot of bad info out there, by people
who mean well.

I understand the reason why they show the poor technique
initially. Hopefully, a user would recognize their way
of doing it and have a chance to correct. This isn't too
fantastic; I've seen some astoundingly bad technique used
by techs in companies that you would instantly recognize
the names of.

I got out of the biz before having to do *any*
'lead free' electronic soldering. I suspect that one
could do acceptable repairs with the proper tools.
I wouldn't expect that the proper techniques would
change much at all.

Probably not, from what little I know. .

You've got a lot of information available via the web.
You should filter out the nonsense and be able to
produce good quality solder joints easily, quickly
and consistently.

We are *all* learning!

--Winston

On 8/25/2011 1:46 AM, Winston wrote:
I suspect that is the case. Even the mild rosin flux
in 'electronic solder' is an acid:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flux_(m...)#Rosin_fluxes

Repeated exposure of the iron tip to acid at high temperature
is bound to cause pitting. As you know, soldering tips are
plated to limit this damage.

The problem with solder is it chemically bonds to the copper.

Good for the connections, bad for the copper on the iron tip.

After a period of time, enough copper has migrated from the tip
to the molten solder. Instant pit.

Nothing at all to do with the alleged acid content of the flux.

Jeff




--
"Everything from Crackers to Coffins"

Jeffrey Angus wrote:
On 8/25/2011 1:46 AM, Winston wrote:
I suspect that is the case. Even the mild rosin flux
in 'electronic solder' is an acid:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flux_(m...)#Rosin_fluxes

Repeated exposure of the iron tip to acid at high temperature
is bound to cause pitting. As you know, soldering tips are
plated to limit this damage.

The problem with solder is it chemically bonds to the copper.

Good for the connections, bad for the copper on the iron tip.

After a period of time, enough copper has migrated from the tip
to the molten solder. Instant pit.

Nothing at all to do with the alleged acid content of the flux.

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solder

Savbit, Savbit 1, Sav1. Minimizes dissolution of copper.
Originally designed to reduce erosion of the soldering iron tips.
About 100 times slower erosion of copper than ordinary tin/lead
alloys.
Suitable for soldering thin copper platings and very thin copper wires.

That'll be what I learnt today. Thanks!

--Winston

micky wrote:

(...)

I'll look for one of these. I have some liquid flux, but I can't
remember ifit's for electronic soldering, or copper plumbing! I'll
check. It's by Oatey, so I guess it's for plumbing. :-) I'll see
if I can find some flux before Sunday.

If you were near Silicon Gulch in CA, I would give you
a bottle of the stuff I use. It's a great match to my
solder, Kester 186.

(...)

If the weather is good enough, maybe I can let you know by then.

Excellent!

--Winston

"micky" wrote in message
...
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/mainrelayfix/index.html

"Removal of old solder: As much of the old solder as possible was
removed in preparation for re-soldering. It is possible to simply
re-flow the old solder, but this method is better."

It's the way I've always done it.

Sometimes you can get away with adding a bit of fresh solder -- or better,
flux. But cleaning the joint is the preferred method.