On Sat, 27 Aug 2011 08:12:38 -0700, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:

"micky" wrote in message
.. .
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/mainrelayfix/index.html

"Removal of old solder: As much of the old solder as possible was
removed in preparation for re-soldering. It is possible to simply
re-flow the old solder, but this method is better."

It's the way I've always done it.

Sometimes you can get away with adding a bit of fresh solder -- or better,
flux. But cleaning the joint is the preferred method.

Well, I learn something new ervery day.

I guess I've been doing this wrong for 50 years, but this time I'm
going to resolder a relay from my neighbor, and I don't want her
getting stuck, as she was last Monday, so my standards are higher than
they would be for myself. .

But I guess now that I know better, I'lll do it this way for myself
too.

Thanks, William, and everyone.


BTW, I could find liquid flux nearby, in time for the repair tomorrow,
so I got flux paste. I thought I'd put a little on with a toothpick
or matchstick?? If the hurrican means I don't work on the car
tomorrow, should I go 10 miles farther to buy liquid flux?

micky wrote:
On Sat, 27 Aug 2011 08:12:38 -0700, "William Sommerwerck"


(...)

Sometimes you can get away with adding a bit of fresh solder -- or better,
flux. But cleaning the joint is the preferred method.

Why limit yourself?
All four are the preferred method.
Remove old, Flux, Solder, Clean.

Well, I learn something new ervery day.

I guess I've been doing this wrong for 50 years, but this time I'm
going to resolder a relay from my neighbor, and I don't want her
getting stuck, as she was last Monday, so my standards are higher than
they would be for myself. .

But I guess now that I know better, I'lll do it this way for myself
too.

Try it! You will be delighted.

(...)

BTW, I could find liquid flux nearby, in time for the repair tomorrow,
so I got flux paste. I thought I'd put a little on with a toothpick
or matchstick?? If the hurrican means I don't work on the car
tomorrow, should I go 10 miles farther to buy liquid flux?

Flux paste will work fine as long as:
1) It matches the flux in your properly selected
solder. (R, RMA or RA rosin in both cases).

2) You daub it on generously with an acid brush,
covering the joint in question.

3) You clean the resulting joint carefully.

The beauty of the liquid rosin flux is that it's
difficult to supply *too little* to the joint.

--Winston

micky wrote:

On Sat, 27 Aug 2011 08:12:38 -0700, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:

"micky" wrote in message
.. .
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/mainrelayfix/index.html

"Removal of old solder: As much of the old solder as possible was
removed in preparation for re-soldering. It is possible to simply
re-flow the old solder, but this method is better."

It's the way I've always done it.

Sometimes you can get away with adding a bit of fresh solder -- or better,
flux. But cleaning the joint is the preferred method.

Well, I learn something new every day.

I guess I've been doing this wrong for 50 years, but this time I'm
going to resolder a relay from my neighbor, and I don't want her
getting stuck, as she was last Monday, so my standards are higher than
they would be for myself. .

But I guess now that I know better, I'lll do it this way for myself
too.

Thanks, William, and everyone.

BTW, I could find liquid flux nearby, in time for the repair tomorrow,
so I got flux paste. I thought I'd put a little on with a toothpick
or matchstick?? If the hurrican means I don't work on the car
tomorrow, should I go 10 miles farther to buy liquid flux?


You want a good, mild RMA flux, not just liquid rosin. My favorite
was Kester 1544, but I think they dropped that formula now that they
concentrate on reflow solder products.

The proper method depends on what caused the failure. If it was
properly wetted, but cracked around the pin becasue the board is single
sided, a drop of fresh flux and a drop of new solder is fine. If it was
caused by bad plating seperating from the pin, or poor soldering without
proper wetting when it was made you will need to remove the old solder
and clean the pins.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

On Sat, 27 Aug 2011 18:24:01 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


micky wrote:

On Sat, 27 Aug 2011 08:12:38 -0700, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:

"micky" wrote in message
.. .
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/mainrelayfix/index.html

"Removal of old solder: As much of the old solder as possible was
removed in preparation for re-soldering. It is possible to simply
re-flow the old solder, but this method is better."

It's the way I've always done it.

Sometimes you can get away with adding a bit of fresh solder -- or better,
flux. But cleaning the joint is the preferred method.

Well, I learn something new every day.

I guess I've been doing this wrong for 50 years, but this time I'm
going to resolder a relay from my neighbor, and I don't want her
getting stuck, as she was last Monday, so my standards are higher than
they would be for myself. .

But I guess now that I know better, I'lll do it this way for myself
too.

Thanks, William, and everyone.

BTW, I could find liquid flux nearby, in time for the repair tomorrow,
so I got flux paste. I thought I'd put a little on with a toothpick
or matchstick?? If the hurrican means I don't work on the car
tomorrow, should I go 10 miles farther to buy liquid flux?


You want a good, mild RMA flux, not just liquid rosin. My favorite
was Kester 1544, but I think they dropped that formula now that they
concentrate on reflow solder products.

The proper method depends on what caused the failure. If it was
properly wetted, but cracked around the pin becasue the board is single
sided, a drop of fresh flux and a drop of new solder is fine. If it was
caused by bad plating seperating from the pin, or poor soldering without
proper wetting when it was made you will need to remove the old solder
and clean the pins.

Thanks.

I don't know about future cases, but in this one** they say it's
because it's in the passenger compartment and gets hot then cold every
day in the summer, and cold then not every day in the winter. Plus
the viibrations.

The temporary remedy was to open the car doors and let it cool off
inside. (Although it wasn't a very hot day. It's run fine for the
last week, also not very hot days. But it was in the 90's and
hundreds for 4 to 6 weeks before this started.))

Nothing I read commented on the original solder job, IMO probably
because they can't tell and most of them own Hondas and don't want to
think it was made badly in the first place.


**which is such a common probelm it has several detailed webpages by
different authors devoted to it (the "main relay" of a Honda, which
contains the fuel injector/engine control computer relay and the fuel
pump relay)

micky wrote:

On Sat, 27 Aug 2011 18:24:01 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
? wrote:

?
?micky wrote:
??
?? On Sat, 27 Aug 2011 08:12:38 -0700, "William Sommerwerck"
?? ? wrote:
??
?? ?"micky" ? wrote in message
?? .. .
?? ?? http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/mainrelayfix/index.html
?? ?
?? ?? "Removal of old solder: As much of the old solder as possible was
?? ?? removed in preparation for re-soldering. It is possible to simply
?? ?? re-flow the old solder, but this method is better."
?? ?
?? ?It's the way I've always done it.
?? ?
?? ?Sometimes you can get away with adding a bit of fresh solder -- or better,
?? ?flux. But cleaning the joint is the preferred method.
??
?? Well, I learn something new every day.
??
?? I guess I've been doing this wrong for 50 years, but this time I'm
?? going to resolder a relay from my neighbor, and I don't want her
?? getting stuck, as she was last Monday, so my standards are higher than
?? they would be for myself. .
??
?? But I guess now that I know better, I'lll do it this way for myself
?? too.
??
?? Thanks, William, and everyone.
??
?? BTW, I could find liquid flux nearby, in time for the repair tomorrow,
?? so I got flux paste. I thought I'd put a little on with a toothpick
?? or matchstick?? If the hurrican means I don't work on the car
?? tomorrow, should I go 10 miles farther to buy liquid flux?
?
?
? You want a good, mild RMA flux, not just liquid rosin. My favorite
?was Kester 1544, but I think they dropped that formula now that they
?concentrate on reflow solder products.
?
? The proper method depends on what caused the failure. If it was
?properly wetted, but cracked around the pin becasue the board is single
?sided, a drop of fresh flux and a drop of new solder is fine. If it was
?caused by bad plating seperating from the pin, or poor soldering without
?proper wetting when it was made you will need to remove the old solder
?and clean the pins.

Thanks.

I don't know about future cases, but in this one** they say it's
because it's in the passenger compartment and gets hot then cold every
day in the summer, and cold then not every day in the winter. Plus
the viibrations.

The temporary remedy was to open the car doors and let it cool off
inside. (Although it wasn't a very hot day. It's run fine for the
last week, also not very hot days. But it was in the 90's and
hundreds for 4 to 6 weeks before this started.))

Nothing I read commented on the original solder job, IMO probably
because they can't tell and most of them own Hondas and don't want to
think it was made badly in the first place.


Most of them aren't likely to know anything more than which end of
the hot soldering iron to pick up, let alone the various failure modes
of soldered connections.


**which is such a common probelm it has several detailed webpages by
different authors devoted to it (the "main relay" of a Honda, which
contains the fuel injector/engine control computer relay and the fuel
pump relay)


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

In article ,
"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:

You want a good, mild RMA flux, not just liquid rosin. My favorite
was Kester 1544, but I think they dropped that formula now that they
concentrate on reflow solder products.

1544 is still around. A gallon is about $50 and would last your average
DIY guy about 800 years, if it weren't for the fact that the volatiles
seep through the plastic bottle.

Smitty Two wrote:

In article ?,
"Michael A. Terrell" ? wrote:

? You want a good, mild RMA flux, not just liquid rosin. My favorite
? was Kester 1544, but I think they dropped that formula now that they
? concentrate on reflow solder products.

1544 is still around. A gallon is about $50 and would last your average
DIY guy about 800 years, if it weren't for the fact that the volatiles
seep through the plastic bottle.


My last bottle is about 25 years old. I bought four quart bottles of
it for $2.50 each from a surplus store in Dayton, Ohio. The others have
been used up.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

On Sat, 27 Aug 2011 20:42:52 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Nothing I read commented on the original solder job, IMO probably
because they can't tell and most of them own Hondas and don't want to
think it was made badly in the first place.


Most of them aren't likely to know anything more than which end of
the hot soldering iron to pick up, let alone the various failure modes
of soldered connections.

Right. I'm happy they know which part is bad, roughly how to fix
it, and the write webpages for people like me.

On Sat, 27 Aug 2011 12:23:28 -0700, Winston
wrote:



BTW, I could find liquid flux nearby, in time for the repair tomorrow,
so I got flux paste. I thought I'd put a little on with a toothpick
or matchstick?? If the hurrican means I don't work on the car
tomorrow, should I go 10 miles farther to buy liquid flux?

Flux paste will work fine as long as:
1) It matches the flux in your properly selected
solder. (R, RMA or RA rosin in both cases).

I hate to say this but none of my solder is marked R, RMA, or RA. The
labels says nothing except that they have rosin.

Radio Shack solder mostly. I've used up other things I had.

Also the Radio Shack flux paste doesn't have an R-rating. It says
nothing about what kind of flux it is.

But the repair today was postponed, so I have time to go farther away
and buy liquid flus. I have another errand to do nearby.

2) You daub it on generously with an acid brush,
covering the joint in question.

I can do that.

3) You clean the resulting joint carefully.

I can do that. It's still necessary with liquid, right?

The beauty of the liquid rosin flux is that it's
difficult to supply *too little* to the joint.

Does that also have to be R, RMA, or RA?


--Winston

In article ,
micky wrote:

Does that also have to be R, RMA, or RA?

Either Rosin Activated or Rosin Mildly Activated will be fine. Don't buy
any acid flux.

But the paste you already have should be fine. If you want it to be
liquid, just mix it with some alcohol. (IPA is fine, but get the pure
stuff if you can, not the 70% stuff.)

If you're soldering iron tip isn't shiny new, put a shiny new tip on it.
It will make a surprisingly large difference in the ease and quality of
your soldering.

micky wrote:
On Sat, 27 Aug 2011 12:23:28 -0700,
wrote:

(...)

I hate to say this but none of my solder is marked R, RMA, or RA. The
labels says nothing except that they have rosin.

Then it is very probably R (rosin only) RMA (rosin mildly activated)
or RA (rosin activated). No worries.

Radio Shack solder mostly. I've used up other things I had.

Also the Radio Shack flux paste doesn't have an R-rating. It says
nothing about what kind of flux it is.

If it is the SP-44 stuff, you are in luck
because it is compatible:
http://support.radioshack.com/msds/msd91-484.pdf

But the repair today was postponed, so I have time to go farther away
and buy liquid flus. I have another errand to do nearby.

As Smitty Two says, you *can* thin your paste with
99% alcohol. I just find the Kester product to be
very convenient.

2) You daub it on generously with an acid brush,
covering the joint in question.

I can do that.

3) You clean the resulting joint carefully.

I can do that. It's still necessary with liquid, right?

Yes indeed. Extra points are rewarded for cleanliness.

The beauty of the liquid rosin flux is that it's
difficult to supply *too little* to the joint.

Does that also have to be R, RMA, or RA?

Yup.
Most specifically NOT 'acid' or 'plumbing' flux.
Sorry for shouting but we don't want your relay
to turn green and fall apart.

--Winston

Smitty Two wrote:
In ,
wrote:

Does that also have to be R, RMA, or RA?

Either Rosin Activated or Rosin Mildly Activated will be fine. Don't buy
any acid flux.

But the paste you already have should be fine. If you want it to be
liquid, just mix it with some alcohol. (IPA is fine, but get the pure
stuff if you can, not the 70% stuff.)

If you're soldering iron tip isn't shiny new, put a shiny new tip on it.
It will make a surprisingly large difference in the ease and quality of
your soldering.

And to turn a dull, oxidized tip shiny new
with just a few stabs, I highly recommend
the Hakko tip cleaner:
http://www.all-spec.com/products/599B-02.html

It works a treat.

--Winston

On Sun, 28 Aug 2011 22:15:11 -0700, Winston
wrote:


Does that also have to be R, RMA, or RA?

Yup.
Most specifically NOT 'acid' or 'plumbing' flux.
Sorry for shouting but we don't want your relay
to turn green and fall apart.

Gotcha! You and Smitty Two.

--Winston

On 08/29/2011 03:20 PM, micky wrote:
On Sun, 28 Aug 2011 22:15:11 -0700,
wrote:


Does that also have to be R, RMA, or RA?

Yup.
Most specifically NOT 'acid' or 'plumbing' flux.
Sorry for shouting but we don't want your relay
to turn green and fall apart.

Gotcha! You and Smitty Two.

--Winston


I'd put in a plug for RA flux. I have a lot of old parts that I still
use a lot (e.g. over 10,000 RN55C resistors), and RA flux makes them
solder like new.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
845-480-2058

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

On Mon, 29 Aug 2011 15:42:00 -0400, Phil Hobbs
wrote:

On 08/29/2011 03:20 PM, micky wrote:
On Sun, 28 Aug 2011 22:15:11 -0700,
wrote:


Does that also have to be R, RMA, or RA?

Yup.
Most specifically NOT 'acid' or 'plumbing' flux.
Sorry for shouting but we don't want your relay
to turn green and fall apart.

Gotcha! You and Smitty Two.

--Winston


I'd put in a plug for RA flux. I have a lot of old parts that I still
use a lot (e.g. over 10,000 RN55C resistors), and RA flux makes them
solder like new.

Okay, I'll see what they sell.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 08/29/2011 03:20 PM, micky wrote:
On Sun, 28 Aug 2011 22:15:11 -0700,
wrote:


Does that also have to be R, RMA, or RA?

Yup.
Most specifically NOT 'acid' or 'plumbing' flux.
Sorry for shouting but we don't want your relay
to turn green and fall apart.

Gotcha! You and Smitty Two.

--Winston


I'd put in a plug for RA flux. I have a lot of old parts that I still
use a lot (e.g. over 10,000 RN55C resistors), and RA flux makes them
solder like new.

That'll work!
My fave Kester 186 is RMA and it does a stellar
job as well.

--Winston