Recently we were notified by our local cable provider that they will
be eliminating the present analog service and going to all digital. I
realize the advantages this affords them and their digital customers.
However there are a great many of us who still have all our old analog
equipment, and don't give a rats ass about HD, never had and never
will. We just want to watch TV.
So now they tell us that even if we were to go out and purchae new
digital sets they won't work because the digital channels will be
"encoded" or scrambled if you will. Each analog device will need to
have a little converter, (a box a little larger than a pack of
cigarettes). This box will process the digital channels and provide a
channel 3 NTSC output. You can only get this box from them and it must
be rented every month.
Is this even legal? Why should anyone go out then and buy a new
digital TV with a tuner? You will be paying for a tuner that you will
never be able to use. Might as well just buy a monitor. Is there any
way around this? Thanks, Lenny

In article
,
klem kedidelhopper wrote:

Recently we were notified by our local cable provider that they will
be eliminating the present analog service and going to all digital. I
realize the advantages this affords them and their digital customers.
However there are a great many of us who still have all our old analog
equipment, and don't give a rats ass about HD, never had and never
will. We just want to watch TV.
So now they tell us that even if we were to go out and purchae new
digital sets they won't work because the digital channels will be
"encoded" or scrambled if you will. Each analog device will need to
have a little converter, (a box a little larger than a pack of
cigarettes). This box will process the digital channels and provide a
channel 3 NTSC output. You can only get this box from them and it must
be rented every month.
Is this even legal? Why should anyone go out then and buy a new
digital TV with a tuner? You will be paying for a tuner that you will
never be able to use. Might as well just buy a monitor. Is there any
way around this?

The folks who just loved their buggy whips had pretty much the same
complaint ...

Isaac

"klem kedidelhopper" wrote in message
...

Recently we were notified by our local cable provider that they will
be eliminating the present analog service and going to all digital. I
realize the advantages this affords them and their digital customers.
However there are a great many of us who still have all our old analog
equipment, and don't give a rats ass about HD, never had and never
will. We just want to watch TV.

So now they tell us that even if we were to go out and purchase new
digital sets they won't work because the digital channels will be
"encoded" or scrambled if you will. Each analog device will need to
have a little converter, (a box a little larger than a pack of
cigarettes). This box will process the digital channels and provide a
channel 3 NTSC output. You can only get this box from them and
it must be rented every month.

Comcast did this about a year ago. Except Comcast doesn't directly charge
for it. It's unfortunate that your cable service charges -- but the device
eliminates the need to buy a new receiver. You'll also find that the picture
quality is somewhat better.


Is this even legal? Why should anyone go out then and buy a new
digital TV with a tuner? You will be paying for a tuner that you will
never be able to use. Might as well just buy a monitor. Is there any
way around this?

It's perfectly legal -- unless there are laws regulating it, which I doubt.

I have a 32" Vizio HDTV in my den. (It's on as I'm writing.) It cost less
than $400 at Costco, and has a gorgeous picture, with a near-180-degree
viewing angle. (Yes. Really.) Once you've seen HD even on a 32" screen, you
will change your mind.

Most cable systems have a "base" service that covers local TV and FM
broadcasts and (sometimes) a few cable networks. These operate on
frequencies different from those used by the "digital transport" device. If
this is satisfactory, you might want to switch.

This is a classic exampe of a situation where "the government" should use
tax money to build the infratstructure, then allow businesses to compete.


Thanks, Lenny.

You're welcome, George.

Per klem kedidelhopper:
So now they tell us that even if we were to go out and purchae new
digital sets they won't work...

We're in the Philadelphia area and do not have cable.

Instead, we have a rooftop antenna and a PC application that is
basically Tivo on steroids.

It feeds a little black box under each TV. TVs are a mix of
digital and analog - the box doesn't care.

Right now, I've got more TV programs and movies on my file server
than I could possibly watch in a lifetime.

There was an up front cost and some labor involved, but no
monthly cable bill.... and plenty of program material, since the
device can record any program any day any time..... the good
stuff just keeps building up....
--
PeteCresswell

On Jul 6, 6:46*am, "(PeteCresswell)" wrote:
Per klem kedidelhopper:

So now they tell us that even if we were to go out and purchae new
digital sets they won't work...

We're in the Philadelphia area and do not have cable.

Instead, we have a rooftop antenna and a PC application that is
basically Tivo on steroids. * *

It feeds a little black box under each TV. * TVs are a mix of
digital and analog - the box doesn't care.

Right now, I've got more TV programs and movies on my file server
than I could possibly watch in a lifetime.

There was an up front cost and some labor involved, but no
monthly cable bill.... and plenty of program material, since the
device can record any program any day any time..... the good
stuff just keeps building up....
--
PeteCresswell

Pete Cresswell,

We used to receive free 66 broadcast channels, after the digital
switch over. No monthly fee. Of those, 6 stations were worthwhile.
One was so good that we would schedule business meetings around their
programming, record anything we missed, and spent 20 hours a week
viewing their content! It wasn't even in English!

After moving, had to switch to satellite and receive over 800 channels
with 147 being presented (cut out those shopping, etc channels), of
those 147, around 8 stations are worthwhile, but lost 2 stations which
apparently are not available from ANY satellite service, this included
that best one!

It's absurd to pay an average of $12/month per worthwhile station and
still be inundated with ads at the rate of more than 20 minutes per
hour. At this rate, the channels should be 'ad-free' I miss the 'no
monthly bills'

Would you elaborate about your system?

Regards,
Robert

PS: if you wish we can take this discussion off line.

Per Robert Macy:

Would you elaborate about your system?

The brand name is "SageTV".

Their web site sucks canal water, so don't judge the product by
their web site.

The essential components a

- TV Tuners:

I have four so the system can record up to three shows
at a time while we're watching something.

My make model is "Silicon Dust HD Homerun": 2 devices
with 2 tuners in each. IIRC mine were about $160 per
box (i.e. $320 for all 4 tuners)


- The SageTV Application:

It's about ninety bucks and runs on any Windows or
Linux PC - including Windows Home Server.

I tried a Linux-based freebie analog called "MythTV"
for several months before laying out the bucks for Sage.

Some swear by Myth... but for me it was like a part-time
job and I never got it running dependably.

The SageTV application is the part that reads/controls the
tuners and records whatever you want. Also, if you want,
the PC it's running on can be connected to any TV - or you
can just use the PC's monitor as your TV. If you only have
one television and you're willing to do your PC work in that
room that's probably something to think about.

If you are watching "Live", it's actually recording and you're
watching the recording -albeit in real time. Tune into ABC
news fifteen minutes late, and you can start at the beginning
and fast-forward the commercials.

This is definitely an enthusiast's product and not a
dumbed-down foolproof "appliance". That's not to say
you won't be able to set it up once and forget it... but
the developers are obviously a bunch of Linux weenies and
parts of the product's UI reflects this. For instance
the setup screen that lets you customize all of the buttons
on the remote control presents the commands by order of
their internal ID#. Heaven forbid, they should sort
it alphabetically.... but that's small potatoes in light
of the product's functionality and reliability.


- The Little Black Boxes:

Actually, you could run the SageTV application on a PC next to
your TV and not use the boxes, but the more common approach is
to use the PC running Sage as a "server"... located, say, in
the rec room, and connect the little black boxes to each TV.
The boxes, of course, are actually computers - but they have
no moving parts and only pull 5-6 watts.

I forget what arcane, BS name Sage uses for the boxes, but
the model name on mine is "HD200" and the most recent mode
is "HD300". The industry term-of-art seems to be "media
extender".


- The Wires:

Stuff gets from the SageTV PC to the little black
boxes over Ethernet cables. I've also run the connection
over WiFi using a bridge that worked, but Those Who Know
generally say that if you can pull the cable, do it.

- Storage:

Video is disk-hungry. A ripped movie takes 4 gigs.
A recorded one-hour TV show takes between 4
and 12 gigs depending on the def. Looking at my
files, "American Experience, Eyes On the Prize: Ain't
scared of Your Jails, No Easy Walk" is taking 11.3 gigs.

But you can get 2-tb drives for less than a hundred bucks
each and 1-tb drives for 50-something.

- (Optional): PC-based functional equivalents of the
little black box. One allows you to watch your stuff
from anywhere in the world, but doesn't play ripped
movies. The other one only works within your home,
but will play ripped movies. Each one was about
thirty bucks when I bought them, and one copy of
one of them comes with the SageTV app.


Fast forwarding of commercials has tb seen tb believed.
The remote that comes with the little black box is
programmable and I have one skip setting at 10 seconds
and the other at 1 minute.

It's been at least five years, probably more, since I've seen
more than 20 seconds of *any* commercial. This is especially
gratifying around election time..... -)

Of course, there's a freebie trial period for the application, so
all one really needs to try it out for nothing is a PC and a
tuner card.

If you decide to dabble in it and need some support I'd be glad
to share my limited expertise. Confirm at FatBelly full stop
Com.

There are also some helpful fora at
http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/index.php
--
PeteCresswell

On Tue, 05 Jul 2011 21:34:54 -0700, klem kedidelhopper wrote:

Recently we were notified by our local cable provider that they will be
eliminating the present analog service and going to all digital. I
realize the advantages this affords them and their digital customers.
However there are a great many of us who still have all our old analog
equipment, and don't give a rats ass about HD, never had and never will.
We just want to watch TV.
So now they tell us that even if we were to go out and purchae new
digital sets they won't work because the digital channels will be
"encoded" or scrambled if you will. Each analog device will need to have
a little converter, (a box a little larger than a pack of cigarettes).
This box will process the digital channels and provide a channel 3 NTSC
output. You can only get this box from them and it must be rented every
month.
Is this even legal? Why should anyone go out then and buy a new digital
TV with a tuner? You will be paying for a tuner that you will never be
able to use. Might as well just buy a monitor. Is there any way around
this? Thanks, Lenny

I forget what they call it here but to save bandwidth the cable "box"
only streams TV to your set on the channel you are watching. That way
your converter is not being sent bandwidth from every channel. Does that
make sense? It really doesn't to me since you can only watch one channel
at a time.



--
Live Fast Die Young, Leave A Pretty Corpse

Recently we were notified by our local cable provider that they will be
eliminating the present analog service and going to all digital. I
realize the advantages this affords them and their digital customers.
However there are a great many of us who still have all our old analog
equipment, and don't give a rats ass about HD, never had and never will.
We just want to watch TV.

So now they tell us that even if we were to go out and purchae new
digital sets they won't work because the digital channels will be
"encoded" or scrambled if you will. Each analog device will need to have
a little converter, (a box a little larger than a pack of cigarettes).
This box will process the digital channels and provide a channel 3 NTSC
output. You can only get this box from them and it must be rented every
month.

If I remember correctly, when the FCC decided that the over-the-air
channels were all to switch to digital, they made a separate decision
that cable companies would be obligated to continue to support their
analog-TV users (in one way or another) through the year 2012.

They *are* permitted to switch their cable plant over to digital
transmission, as long as they provide a way for analog TV users to
continue to use those TV sets (for another year, at least).

Is this even legal?

Switching their plant over to digital - yes.

Requiring the use of some sort of access/descrambling device - yes.

Requiring you to rent the access/descrambler box only from them...
very possibly not. Back in 1996, Congress passed a law which
largely outlawed the practice of "You must rent your cable box from
us!" policies by the cable companies. The intent was to allow
consumers to buy their cable set-top boxes on the open market, if they
wished, and connect them to the cable TV system.

Most cable companies (with a few exceptions) are now required to
provide support for "CableCard", a technology which moves the cable-TV
descrambling electronics into a small plug-in card (similar in size to
the PCMCIA or PC cards used in laptop computers). You buy the
set-top box (plain or DVR) on the open market, you get the CableCard from
your cable TV provider, you plug the card into the set-top box and
"pair" the card to the box, and you're now able to view the digital
channels.

The cable companies are allowed to charge a monthly rental fee for
CableCard devices.

Up until recently, the cost of a CableCard rental (for your own
set-top box) was often the same as the cost of renting a whole
descrambler box (which, in most cases, is actually required by law to
contain/use a CableCard). The FCC has recently changed the rules on
this, requiring that the rental fee for the CableCard be split out
separately and be

Further information:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CableCARD
http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2010/10/...e-box-rentals/

Why should anyone go out then and buy a new digital
TV with a tuner? You will be paying for a tuner that you will never be
able to use.

Most of the simple cable-box descramblers provide better forms of
video output than "channel 3 RF" (which is the *poorest* choice for
quality reasons). Most of them have, at least, "composite video",
and many have S-Video. Neither of these require a tuner (they'll
work fine with a suitable video monitor). More up-scale converters
generally have either component or HDMI or both.

Might as well just buy a monitor. Is there any way around
this? Thanks, Lenny

Put up an over-the-air antenna (if you don't already have one), and
get a cheap OTA digital converter. Since the government was
subsidizing the purchase price of these for quite a while, there are
probably a bunch of them sitting around unused in the homes of people
who have since upgraded to digital-capable TVs. You can probably pick
one up cheaply, or perhaps even for free via FreeCycle or CraigsList
or a local want-ad.

--
Dave Platt AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

Meat Plow wrote:
On Tue, 05 Jul 2011 21:34:54 -0700, klem kedidelhopper wrote:

Recently we were notified by our local cable provider that they will
be eliminating the present analog service and going to all digital. I
realize the advantages this affords them and their digital customers.
However there are a great many of us who still have all our old
analog equipment, and don't give a rats ass about HD, never had and
never will. We just want to watch TV.
So now they tell us that even if we were to go out and purchae new
digital sets they won't work because the digital channels will be
"encoded" or scrambled if you will. Each analog device will need to
have a little converter, (a box a little larger than a pack of
cigarettes). This box will process the digital channels and provide
a channel 3 NTSC output. You can only get this box from them and it
must be rented every month.
Is this even legal? Why should anyone go out then and buy a new
digital TV with a tuner? You will be paying for a tuner that you
will never be able to use. Might as well just buy a monitor. Is
there any way around this? Thanks, Lenny

I forget what they call it here but to save bandwidth the cable "box"
only streams TV to your set on the channel you are watching. That way
your converter is not being sent bandwidth from every channel. Does
that make sense? It really doesn't to me since you can only watch one
channel at a time.

That can't be correct. How does the cable company know which channel you
want to watch? That's the only way bandwidth into the box could be reduced.
The only bandwidth reduction would be between the cable box and your TV set,
which is only getting channel 3 instead of the entire TV RF spectrum.
--
David
dgminala at mediacombb dot net

In article ,
Dave M wrote:

I forget what they call it here but to save bandwidth the cable "box"
only streams TV to your set on the channel you are watching. That way
your converter is not being sent bandwidth from every channel. Does
that make sense? It really doesn't to me since you can only watch one
channel at a time.

That can't be correct. How does the cable company know which channel you
want to watch? That's the only way bandwidth into the box could be reduced.
The only bandwidth reduction would be between the cable box and your TV set,
which is only getting channel 3 instead of the entire TV RF spectrum.

I think there are two different issues being conflated here.

The biggest gain, in switching to a digital distribution system, is
that it's possible to carry several digital programs within one 6 MHz
channel allocation (which is only enough to carry one analog NTSC
channel). Cable operators love the idea of being able to make more
channels available through their existing cable plant, and they could
carry the equivalent of 3 or 4 standard-definition programs (with
decent video quality) in one channel slice.

That's the first part of the "bandwidth savings". All of these
channels are available simultaneously to the subscriber (although any
given set-top box or TV is only able to tune to one of them at a time,
unless it has picture-in-picture capability).

This is the way that almost all digital cable-TV set-top boxes work,
or have worked up until recently.

There's another technique coming into use on some cable systems -
"switched digital". In this system, some of the less-frequency-viewed
channels are not being sent down into any particular part of the cable
plant at all times... they're only transmitted when somebody wants to
watch them. This *does* require "upstream" signalling from the cable
set-top box to the cable head-end. If a viewer tries to tune to an
obscure channel (say, the latest Bollywood film translated into
Polish), the set-top box sends a message over the cable net to the
head-end, saying "I want to see station #87265.35, please". The cable
head-end, finding that it's not currently sending that station,
locates a free frequency on the cable system, starts downlinking that
digital station on that frequency, and sends a message back to the
set-top box saying "OK, tune to channel 78 and decode digital
substream 4". The system keeps transmitting that obscure station
until the last viewer watching it changes to a different channel...
and at that point the head-end can stop transmission and reclaim the
frequency.

This approach yields "bandwidth savings" by allowing a cable operator
to offer a vast number of different channels (including numerous
video-on-demand / pay-per-view selections) without having to reserve
cable bandwidth for all of them, all of the time.

--
Dave Platt AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

On Wed, 06 Jul 2011 18:27:50 -0700, Dave Platt wrote:

In article , Dave M
wrote:

I forget what they call it here but to save bandwidth the cable "box"
only streams TV to your set on the channel you are watching. That way
your converter is not being sent bandwidth from every channel. Does
that make sense? It really doesn't to me since you can only watch one
channel at a time.

That can't be correct. How does the cable company know which channel
you want to watch? That's the only way bandwidth into the box could be
reduced. The only bandwidth reduction would be between the cable box and
your TV set, which is only getting channel 3 instead of the entire TV
RF spectrum.

I think there are two different issues being conflated here.

The biggest gain, in switching to a digital distribution system, is that
it's possible to carry several digital programs within one 6 MHz channel
allocation (which is only enough to carry one analog NTSC channel).
Cable operators love the idea of being able to make more channels
available through their existing cable plant, and they could carry the
equivalent of 3 or 4 standard-definition programs (with decent video
quality) in one channel slice.

That's the first part of the "bandwidth savings". All of these channels
are available simultaneously to the subscriber (although any given
set-top box or TV is only able to tune to one of them at a time, unless
it has picture-in-picture capability).

This is the way that almost all digital cable-TV set-top boxes work, or
have worked up until recently.

There's another technique coming into use on some cable systems -
"switched digital". In this system, some of the less-frequency-viewed
channels are not being sent down into any particular part of the cable
plant at all times... they're only transmitted when somebody wants to
watch them. This *does* require "upstream" signalling from the cable
set-top box to the cable head-end. If a viewer tries to tune to an
obscure channel (say, the latest Bollywood film translated into Polish),
the set-top box sends a message over the cable net to the head-end,
saying "I want to see station #87265.35, please". The cable head-end,
finding that it's not currently sending that station, locates a free
frequency on the cable system, starts downlinking that digital station
on that frequency, and sends a message back to the set-top box saying
"OK, tune to channel 78 and decode digital substream 4". The system
keeps transmitting that obscure station until the last viewer watching
it changes to a different channel... and at that point the head-end can
stop transmission and reclaim the frequency.

This approach yields "bandwidth savings" by allowing a cable operator to
offer a vast number of different channels (including numerous
video-on-demand / pay-per-view selections) without having to reserve
cable bandwidth for all of them, all of the time.

Thanks for the clarification. I'm not up enough with the technology
other than to read the service menus on my DVR and remember words like SDV
, Carousel read erros etc... and know the TV cards operate via tcp/ip.
I also did a little reading and the SDV does operate here as you
describe. Only sending out more frequent watched content from the headend
via fiber then to the wire nodes hence saving bandwidth.



--
Live Fast Die Young, Leave A Pretty Corpse

On Wed, 06 Jul 2011 19:40:02 -0500, Dave M wrote:

Meat Plow wrote:
On Tue, 05 Jul 2011 21:34:54 -0700, klem kedidelhopper wrote:

Recently we were notified by our local cable provider that they will
be eliminating the present analog service and going to all digital. I
realize the advantages this affords them and their digital customers.
However there are a great many of us who still have all our old analog
equipment, and don't give a rats ass about HD, never had and never
will. We just want to watch TV. So now they tell us that even if we
were to go out and purchae new digital sets they won't work because
the digital channels will be "encoded" or scrambled if you will. Each
analog device will need to have a little converter, (a box a little
larger than a pack of cigarettes). This box will process the digital
channels and provide a channel 3 NTSC output. You can only get this
box from them and it must be rented every month.
Is this even legal? Why should anyone go out then and buy a new
digital TV with a tuner? You will be paying for a tuner that you will
never be able to use. Might as well just buy a monitor. Is there any
way around this? Thanks, Lenny

I forget what they call it here but to save bandwidth the cable "box"
only streams TV to your set on the channel you are watching. That way
your converter is not being sent bandwidth from every channel. Does
that make sense? It really doesn't to me since you can only watch one
channel at a time.

That can't be correct. How does the cable company know which channel
you want to watch? That's the only way bandwidth into the box could be
reduced. The only bandwidth reduction would be between the cable box and
your TV set, which is only getting channel 3 instead of the entire TV
RF spectrum.

It's all done via TCP/IP through the DVR. I'm not going to go back and
research it but the idea I gleaned was to be selective to the needs of
the cable bandwidth. Google Time Warner headend and DVR or something like
that. It's been awhile since I looked at the data for their system but
they claim it saves bandwidth. Oh, just remembered it's called SDV or
Switched Digital Video or some crap like that. Good luck.



--
Live Fast Die Young, Leave A Pretty Corpse