Mark Cross wrote:

Jamie wrote:


Yes, 2 phase of 90 degree's still exist, so why is that ok but 180
degree's isn't?


Because the decomposition of two 90º phasor contains an imaginary part.
Without a real part AND an imaginary part, no distinct phases could be
constructed or generated.

There is no imaginary part in the decomposition of two 180º apart vectors,
and, therefore there is no way to construct other phases (phasors).

Sorry, you need to know phasors to understand this principle.


This must be what separates the Electronic and the Fuse puller EE.

I once thought to be an Electrical Engineer or hold an E1 meant, that
you had to know a lot about electricity, evidently you don't. Might be a
good reason why we find it hard to hire some one for a basic electrical
maintenance job that actual understands electrical theory, not many here.

Jamie

Jamie wrote:

that
you had to know a lot about electricity, evidently you don't.

I am not looking for a job, much less in basic electrical maintenace. You
may apply if you feel competent for such simple jobs.

--
Mark Cross
If Linux doesn't have the solution, you have the wrong problem.

On 1/29/2011 12:37 PM, Jamie wrote:

Yes, 2 phase of 90 degree's still exist, so why is that ok but 180
degree's isn't?

Because it's STILL a SINGLE phase across the transformer.

Look at power generators (portables), most of them have 2 circuits from
the generator 180 out from each other.. Why is this any different from a
generator of 90 degrees out ? You can combine a leg of each output from
a those generators also..

I serious doubt they make 90 Degree 2-phase generators.

As to combining multiple output windings from a SINGLE phase
generator, the output is STILL single phase.

It's argument that you won't win from those that truly understand the
meaning of phase angle supplies and the number of supply legs.

You're right, _YOU_ won't win that argument.

On combining multiple phases...

On more occasions than I care to recall, I've seen some poor
schmuck buy a 3-5 HP 240 VAC single phase motor, either on a
table saw or an air compressor, and have his "electrician
buddy" give him two of the 120 volt phases of the 3-phase
power in the shop to run his new equipment with.

Aside from the obvious, the voltage is 208 (Not 240), there's
a 120 phase difference between the two leads feeding the motor.
I usually get called in about 2-3 weeks on a "warranty request"
for said motor that just went up in flames.

Jeff

Jeffrey Angus wrote:

On 1/29/2011 12:37 PM, Jamie wrote:

Yes, 2 phase of 90 degree's still exist, so why is that ok but 180
degree's isn't?

Because it's STILL a SINGLE phase across the transformer.

Look at power generators (portables), most of them have 2 circuits from
the generator 180 out from each other.. Why is this any different from a
generator of 90 degrees out ? You can combine a leg of each output from
a those generators also..

I serious doubt they make 90 Degree 2-phase generators.

As to combining multiple output windings from a SINGLE phase
generator, the output is STILL single phase.

It's argument that you won't win from those that truly understand the
meaning of phase angle supplies and the number of supply legs.

You're right, _YOU_ won't win that argument.

On combining multiple phases...

On more occasions than I care to recall, I've seen some poor
schmuck buy a 3-5 HP 240 VAC single phase motor, either on a
table saw or an air compressor, and have his "electrician
buddy" give him two of the 120 volt phases of the 3-phase
power in the shop to run his new equipment with.

Aside from the obvious, the voltage is 208 (Not 240), there's
a 120 phase difference between the two leads feeding the motor.
I usually get called in about 2-3 weeks on a "warranty request"
for said motor that just went up in flames.


I recently got a call about a pipe bending machine reporting low
voltage. Rated for 208 to 240 volts and was working fine a couple days
earlier, before it was moved to a new building. They insisted the
wiring was fine, and asked me to add a boost transformer. I did, and it
still didn't work. I finally convinced them to let me check the
voltage. I had 154 volts after the boost transformer, so i went to the
new three phase breaker box and found that someone like Jamie had wired
it. The black wire went to a single pole breaker, and the red went to
neutral. The business owner finally got hold of the company that did
the wiring, who insisted they did the job the right way. When they were
informed that they had used a single pole breaker, they called him a
liar but reluctantly agreed to send out a worker. Three hours later, he
shows up, admits they used the wrong breaker and promised to be back
'sometime next week'. After another couple calls, the owner of the
electrical business delivers the proper breaker. Guess who will ever be
called for any more work?

With 208 going to the boost transformer, I had 244 volts to the
machine. The operator's eyes went wide when he used it. He said it was
working about 50% faster, and bending at the speed it was supposed to.
It had never worked at full speed in the 10+ years they had owned it.

As far as the knuckle draggers:

You can buy single pole breakers.
You can buy double pole breakers.
You can buy three phase breakers.
--- BUT ---
You can't buy two phase breakers.


--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a band-aid on it, because it's
Teflon coated.

"Mark Cross"

To understand what is "magical" about that you will need to know phasors
and
the math related to that. Once you understand the math that support
phasors,
you clearly see why 0º and 180º are the same phasor.

** ABSOLUTE ********.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phasor


** Says nothing of the kind whatever.

( Bet the only "phasors" this jerk knows about are the ones used on "Star
Trek")

**** of you pathetic, bloody TROLL 1!



...... Phil

On 1/29/2011 5:35 PM Phil Allison spake thus:

"Mark Cross"

To understand what is "magical" about that you will need to know
phasors and the math related to that. Once you understand the math
that support phasors, you clearly see why 0º and 180º are the same
phasor.

** ABSOLUTE ********.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phasor

** Says nothing of the kind whatever.

( Bet the only "phasors" this jerk knows about are the ones used on "Star
Trek")

**** of you pathetic, bloody TROLL 1!

Phil, I happen to agree with you here, so do you think you could try to
restrain yourself a little bit and not go off the deep end? Tends to
ruin whatever good points you make ...


--
Comment on quaint Usenet customs, from Usenet:

To me, the *plonk...* reminds me of the old man at the public hearing
who stands to make his point, then removes his hearing aid as a sign
that he is not going to hear any rebuttals.

"David Nebenzahl"
"Mark Cross"

To understand what is "magical" about that you will need to know phasors
and the math related to that. Once you understand the math
that support phasors, you clearly see why 0º and 180º are the same
phasor.

** ABSOLUTE ********.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phasor

** Says nothing of the kind whatever.

( Bet the only "phasors" this jerk knows about are the ones used on "Star
Trek")

**** of you pathetic, bloody TROLL !!

Phil, I happen to agree with you here, so do you think you could try to
restrain yourself a little bit and not go off the deep end? Tends to ruin
whatever good points you make ...


** Cross has been posting this same sort of brain dead drivel here for
ears - he is totally off with the fairies and beyond all help. There is no
reason whatever to tolerate such vexatious persons.

I see it as a great folly for anyone to do that.

PS:

Usenet is not the real world - usenet is an on-line jungle.

In normal life, I am usually a polite and cheerful person.


...... Phil

David Nebenzahl wrote:

On 1/29/2011 5:35 PM Phil Allison spake thus:

"Mark Cross"


To understand what is "magical" about that you will need to know
phasors and the math related to that. Once you understand the math
that support phasors, you clearly see why 0º and 180º are the same
phasor.


** ABSOLUTE ********.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phasor


** Says nothing of the kind whatever.

( Bet the only "phasors" this jerk knows about are the ones used on
"Star Trek")

**** of you pathetic, bloody TROLL 1!


Phil, I happen to agree with you here, so do you think you could try to
restrain yourself a little bit and not go off the deep end? Tends to
ruin whatever good points you make ...


Yes, Phil is correct in his insertion how ever, you can't teach a lot
to fuse pullers, I don't know why Phil even tries.

Jamie

"David Nebenzahl"

Actually, there is at least one application which depends on there being 2
phases in ordinary residential power distribution panels: the so-called
Edison circuit. This is where two circuits are run with separate "hots"
and a common neutral, where the neutral conductor is the same size as the
hots.

The only way this can work is if the two circuits are separate phases (in
this case, 180° apart), so that the currents cancel in the common return
conductor.

Apart from this, we wouldn't care if the two legs of the power company's
step-down transformer delivered the same phase of power (just give us the
juice! who cares about the phase?).


** Remember the BBC 1960s TV show:

" Never mind the quality - feel the width "


..... Phil