I am now the proud and absolutely delighted owner of a Pioneer plasma TV.
The first thing I watched was "Amadeus", and though my expectations were
unnaturally high, the Pioneer handily exceeded them. Simply unbelievable.

The set has a two-year in-home warranty on parts and labor, which strikes me
as a bit short for such a product. (It really "should" be three years. Five
would be even nicer.)

I can get an extended warranty for $1000. Said warranty extends Pioneer's
warranty by only two years, but it is a complete replacement warranty.
Should the set have three service problems of any kind (even minor ones, and
they needn't be the same), or any unrepairable problem, the set will be
replaced outright.

Of course, in a little less than a year, there won't be any more Pioneer
plasmas to replace mine with. The installers said there had been major
problems with about 5% of the Pioneers. That's not a high number, but the 1
in 20 probability of losing such a major investment leaves me a bit
uncomfortable.

I don't feel like laying out another kilobuck. And though my experiences
with consumer electronics over the past 45 years has been overwhelmingly
positive (I've never had anything expensive break down -- other than my
brand K amplification), I don't like the idea of getting a bit more than 2
years' use out of a product and then having to toss it (either because the
parts aren't available, or I can't afford the repair).

This is what is called a dilemma ("two horns", in Greek).

Any views on the reliability of Pioneer plasma?

Thanks in advance.

On Sun, 22 Mar 2009 06:55:50 -0700, "William Sommerwerck"
put finger to keyboard and composed:

Any views on the reliability of Pioneer plasma?

FWIW, I notice that LG plasma TVs have a 1 year warranty whereas their
LCD TVs have 3 years. This would suggest that plasma panels are
inherently less reliable than LCDs.

As you have said, Pioneer appear to be getting out of the TV business:
http://hdguru.com/pioneer-to-exit-the-tv-business/366/

Last year they began outsourcing production of plasma panels to
Panasonic/Matsu****a, so a more appropriate question might be the
reliability of Panasonic panels.

On the plus side, I notice that Pioneer will sometimes sell you
individual ICs (eg scan IC) rather than the whole PCB.

You may want to check some parts prices he
http://parts.pioneerelectronics.com/...755870KPZT%2DP

This article recommends against an extended warranty:
http://www.mysimon.com/4002-9375-6309568.html

"Our most recent survey found few repair problems during the first
three years of use for plasma sets from Panasonic, Pioneer, and
Samsung. ... Our surveys of thousands of consumers show that plasma
flat-panel TVs have been very reliable for the first three years --
the time covered by many extended warranties -- so there's little
sense in spending several hundred dollars for such a warranty."

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

On Sun, 22 Mar 2009 06:55:50 -0700, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:

I don't feel like laying out another kilobuck. And though my experiences
with consumer electronics over the past 45 years has been overwhelmingly
positive (I've never had anything expensive break down -- other than my
brand K amplification), I don't like the idea of getting a bit more than 2
years' use out of a product and then having to toss it (either because the
parts aren't available, or I can't afford the repair).

According to Wikipedia, the half life of a plasma display is about
100,000 hrs. That's 27 years at 10 hrs per day. That's the time to
where the display brightness drops to half. Have you light meter
ready.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_display
There's quite a bit of good info in that article on plasma tv.

My very limited experience with plasma displays is that the failures
are usually in the electronics or power supply, not the tube. However,
the tube will be prematurely ruined by leaving it on the program guide
causing burn-in. Overheating, due to in the wall or cabinet
installations that lack sufficient ventilation is another culprit. Of
course, the big tube is fairly fragile and will not survive the impact
of the kids indoor baseball game.

The actual failure curve for a system has peaks at the beginning and
end of life, with a flat curve in between. The initial peak is
usually manufacturing defects and are covered under the warranty.
Those usually show up within a year. At the end of life, components
that degrade due to temperature effects or thermal cycling, will cause
failures. In between, a random assortment of failures might occur,
but the rate is very low.

The exception is the failure of Low-ESR capacitors, which tend to show
up after several years. The problem can be catastrophic as there may
be dozens of identical caps in your TV, all with the same problem.
http://www.badcaps.net
http://www.capacitorlab.com/low-esr-capacitor-manufacturers/
About 8 years after the counterfeit electrolyte and counterfeit
capacitor problems were discovered, I'm still seeing brand new
equipment with volcanic electrolytics.

The big problem with repairing a plasma TV is the size and weight. It
just can't be dragged to the service shop or warranty repair station
easily or economically. So, if a trivial part fails, it's a truck
roll and a major production. TV repairmen still make house calls, but
you'll pay handsomely for the effort. Or, you can drag it down to the
few remaining repair shops.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 22 Mar 2009 06:55:50 -0700, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:

I don't feel like laying out another kilobuck. And though my experiences
with consumer electronics over the past 45 years has been overwhelmingly
positive (I've never had anything expensive break down -- other than my
brand K amplification), I don't like the idea of getting a bit more than
2
years' use out of a product and then having to toss it (either because
the
parts aren't available, or I can't afford the repair).

My very limited experience with plasma displays is that the failures
are usually in the electronics or power supply, not the tube. However,
the tube will be prematurely ruined by leaving it on the program guide
causing burn-in. Overheating, due to in the wall or cabinet
installations that lack sufficient ventilation is another culprit. Of
course, the big tube is fairly fragile and will not survive the impact
of the kids indoor baseball game.

The actual failure curve for a system has peaks at the beginning and
end of life, with a flat curve in between.

The initial failures are called "infant mortality".


The initial peak is usually manufacturing defects and are covered under
the warranty. Those usually show up within a year. At the end of life,
components that degrade due to temperature effects or thermal cycling,
will cause failures. In between, a random assortment of failures might
occur,
but the rate is very low.

I'll have to ask Magnolia what sorts of repairs those 5% comprise. The only
thing I'm worried about is the display panel. And although the Federal
government requires electronic parts to be available for 10 years after end
of manufacturing, I wonder whether Pioneer will have any stock of panels
after 2012. The government does not enforce these laws very well (if at all.

Picky point... "Degrade" is a transitive verb, not reflexive. You mean
"deteriorate" or "fail".


The big problem with repairing a plasma TV is the size and weight. It
just can't be dragged to the service shop or warranty repair station
easily or economically. So, if a trivial part fails, it's a truck
roll and a major production. TV repairmen still make house calls, but
you'll pay handsomely for the effort. Or, you can drag it down to the
few remaining repair shops.

According to Magnolia, warranties include in-home service.

On 22 mar, 14:55, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:

Any views on the reliability of Pioneer plasma?

Thanks in advance.

The pioneers I used to see were all ITT chasis, back in the day of the
CRT!

Personally, I don't think it was wise to invest in this set for
various reasons.
a)the manufacturer is getting out of the business which is bad news
for after sales support, parts etc.
b) production of plasma sets is to be ceased if it hasn't been
already. As such, it could even be seen, in tech terms, as 'old
technology'.
c)fragility and screen burn problems mentioned above.
:-/
B

b) production of plasma sets is to be ceased if it hasn't been
already. As such, it could even be seen, in tech terms, as 'old
technology'.

I'm curious as to where you got this information. It's amazing how an
"old-technology" set is generally considered to be the best direct-view TV
made.

William Sommerwerck wrote:

b) production of plasma sets is to be ceased if it hasn't been
already. As such, it could even be seen, in tech terms, as 'old
technology'.

I'm curious as to where you got this information. It's amazing how an
"old-technology" set is generally considered to be the best direct-view TV
made.

Power consumption. I'd expect more problems to arise if you use the TV a lot.

Graham

b) production of plasma sets is to be ceased if it hasn't been
already. As such, it could even be seen, in tech terms, as 'old
technology'.

I'm curious as to where you got this information. It's amazing how an
"old-technology" set is generally considered to be the best direct-view
TV made.

Power consumption. I'd expect more problems to arise if you use the TV a
lot.

The Pioneer runs surprisingly cool. And it's well-ventilated.

William Sommerwerck wrote:

b) production of plasma sets is to be ceased if it hasn't been
already. As such, it could even be seen, in tech terms, as 'old
technology'.

I'm curious as to where you got this information. It's amazing how an
"old-technology" set is generally considered to be the best direct-view
TV made.

Power consumption. I'd expect more problems to arise if you use the TV a
lot.

The Pioneer runs surprisingly cool. And it's well-ventilated.

That's an encouraging sign.

Graham

"b" wrote in message
...
On 22 mar, 14:55, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:

Any views on the reliability of Pioneer plasma?

Thanks in advance.

The pioneers I used to see were all ITT chasis, back in the day of the
CRT!

Personally, I don't think it was wise to invest in this set for
various reasons.
a)the manufacturer is getting out of the business which is bad news
for after sales support, parts etc.
b) production of plasma sets is to be ceased if it hasn't been
already. As such, it could even be seen, in tech terms, as 'old
technology'.
c)fragility and screen burn problems mentioned above.
:-/
B

Screen burn is not so much of a problem as it was in the early days. Most
sets have a service mode which 'washes' the panel, and in many cases, will
remove all but the most 'burnt-in' burns.

On a slightly different note, anyone heard what point SED technology has
reached now ? I believed that there was some legal issue between
manufacturers at one point, but that it had been resolved, and large screen
SED based sets were due to be hitting the market by the end of last year.
Can't say that I've seen any yet. I wonder whether it has become a 'shelved'
technology as a result of the economic downturn, and the strong foothold
that LCD has now established in the market ?

Arfa

Screen burn is not so much of a problem as it was in the
early days. Most sets have a service mode which "washes"
the panel, and in many cases, will remove all but the most
"burnt-in" burns.

After two days of hot-n-heavy viewing (Saturday and Sunday), I turned on the
"wash" mode and let it run for an hour.


On a slightly different note, anyone heard what point SED
technology has reached now ? I believed that there was some
legal issue between manufacturers at one point, but that it had
been resolved...

That's what I've heard.


.... and large-screen SED-based sets were due to be hitting the
market by the end of last year.

I'd wanted to wait for SED, but gave up when I heard about the legal
wrangling. Given the current economy and the generally strong sales of both
plasma and LCD sets, it's unlikely we'll see SED sets that soon, if ever.


Can't say that I've seen any yet. I wonder whether it has become a
"shelved" technology as a result of the economic downturn, and the
strong foothold that LCD has now established in the market?

Very likely.


On the 3D front... Matsu****a has announced it's working on a
frame-sequential 1080-line system that will be generally compatible with
existing players and displays. Besides the new stuff, there are lots of
classic 3D films: "Creature from the Black Lagoon" (and its first sequel),
"The Maze", "House of Wax", "Dial M for Murder", "It Came from Outer Space",
"Kiss Me, Kate", "Hondo", and that stinker de tutti stinkers, "Robot
Monster".

On Tue, 24 Mar 2009 01:16:38 -0000, "Arfa Daily"
wrote:

On a slightly different note, anyone heard what point SED technology has
reached now ? I believed that there was some legal issue between
manufacturers at one point, but that it had been resolved, and large screen
SED based sets were due to be hitting the market by the end of last year.
Can't say that I've seen any yet. I wonder whether it has become a 'shelved'
technology as a result of the economic downturn, and the strong foothold
that LCD has now established in the market ?

Patience. The patent attorneys must all be fed first. This article
covers the technology and legal wrangling (near the bottom):
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview/id/525928.html

Personally, I think LED DLP projectors are going to be a winner,
mostly because of the (eventual) low cost and small size.

After that market is saturated, 3D TV will probably be the next big
thing. Apple will probably call the required LCD shutter/viewer
glasses the "Eye-Pod" which will display 3D videos while walking down
the street and double as a heads-up information display and game
machine. The colander helmet docking station is optional.



--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

One general principle-- the harder the salespeople push for you to buy
an item, the higher the
profit to them and lousier value to you.

In particular, all those places that push for "extended warranties",
they can often triple their profit just on the warranty part.

And collecting on the warranty can be a real hassle. Not like the
smiling attractive people in the glossy warranty brochure, you'll be
writing and calling and getting put on hold for months if you try to
collect on the warranty.

"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 24 Mar 2009 01:16:38 -0000, "Arfa Daily"
wrote:

On a slightly different note, anyone heard what point SED technology has
reached now ? I believed that there was some legal issue between
manufacturers at one point, but that it had been resolved, and large
screen
SED based sets were due to be hitting the market by the end of last year.
Can't say that I've seen any yet. I wonder whether it has become a
'shelved'
technology as a result of the economic downturn, and the strong foothold
that LCD has now established in the market ?

Patience. The patent attorneys must all be fed first. This article
covers the technology and legal wrangling (near the bottom):
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview/id/525928.html



That's interesting. I see that the original question was posted back in
2005, and it looked as though a resolution to the legal problems was
expected in fairly short order, back then.

But isn't this just typical ? The eco-bollox green mist brigade jump on
every dubious 'mis-use' of energy, such as getting 'proper' light bulbs
banned world-wide in favour of dreadful substitutes like CFLs, and here we
are with a technology that uses half the power of a CRT, a third the power
of a plasma panel, and although it doesn't state the ratio with LCDs will be
at least a third of those if not less, and which could actually make a big
difference, whilst *improving* the picture over the current flat screen
technologies, and they let it just fester as a result of one company getting
arsey with another !

Makes you wonder who has got an interest in not letting this technology out
onto the mass market ...

Arfa

But isn't this just typical? The eco-bollox green mist brigade jump on
every dubious 'mis-use' of energy, such as getting 'proper' light bulbs
banned world-wide in favour of dreadful substitutes like CFLs...

Arfa, try putting a CFL in a glass or plastic fixture. You might be
pleasantly surprised.

Except for the bathroom, where the CFLs are directly exposed (above the
mirror), the others are in IKEA fixtures. You can't tell they're not
incandescent. They look great.

On Wed, 25 Mar 2009 18:13:10 -0000, "Arfa Daily"
wrote:

Patience. The patent attorneys must all be fed first. This article
covers the technology and legal wrangling (near the bottom):
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview/id/525928.html

That's interesting. I see that the original question was posted back in
2005, and it looked as though a resolution to the legal problems was
expected in fairly short order, back then.

Thanks, I didn't notice. The problem usually has nothing to do with
the newer technology. It's that the companies involved have not had
sufficient time or sales to cover their expenses for the existing
technology. It's not until the old technology has run its course,
that the new technology can be safely allowed to appear. No company
wants to compete with itself.

In this case, the big panel LCD technology is still fairly new. Sales
of big LCD panels have certainly not hit bottom. I don't have a
figure as to how many years LCD technology needs to be around before
being replaced by SED. My guess(tm) would be about 8 years total, so
from 2005, that would be 2013 before introduction.

Ummm... there's also OLED (organic LED) technology, which is really
bright, but has problems with limited lifetime (about 5 years) and
requires better package sealing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_light-emitting_diode
OLED products are here today:
http://www.oqo.com/products/index.html

Plasma displays are ruining HF reception at my house. Two of my
neighbors have them. When they're on, all I hear on 80 and 40 meters
is noise.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

b wrote:
On 22 mar, 14:55, "William Sommerwerck"
Any views on the reliability of Pioneer plasma?
Thanks in advance.
The pioneers I used to see were all ITT chasis, back in the day of the
CRT!

ITT/SEL probably, except for the ones that used Philips or Thomson
chassis... But that was for the European market. The North American models
might come from a different source. I think RPTV's and Plasma sets were
made by Pioneer themselves.

--
Met vriendelijke groet,

Maarten Bakker.