http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/sf2.jpg
No markings, a black potted box 7x7x 15mm external dimensions.
If a stepup transformer , why so small?

0.3 ohms between blue and red lead and 144 ohms between blue and brown lead
which goes directly to the trigger filament around the flash tube.
Red goes to ground and blue wire goes via 0.2uF, 250V capacitor to the SCR
cathode. 22mH and 20uH inductance

--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/

It is, I believe, the trigger transformer. A low-voltage pulse is stepped up
to trigger the flash.

"N_Cook" wrote in message
...
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/sf2.jpg
No markings, a black potted box 7x7x 15mm external dimensions.
If a stepup transformer , why so small?

0.3 ohms between blue and red lead and 144 ohms between blue and brown
lead
which goes directly to the trigger filament around the flash tube.
Red goes to ground and blue wire goes via 0.2uF, 250V capacitor to the SCR
cathode. 22mH and 20uH inductance

--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/






If you dont like small put it in a larger box, manufacturers are not known
for extragance and they tend to use the minium specs components.
Perhaps you may like to reword the question ?

--
Rheilly P

N_Cook wrote:

http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/sf2.jpg
No markings, a black potted box 7x7x 15mm external dimensions.
If a stepup transformer , why so small?

As per the other poster, it's likely the trigger transformer.
They're usually quite small, as they have few primary turns, lots of
secondary, and since the wire is quite thin (impedance isn't a problem as they
don't supply any appreciable current), they end up quite small.
--
Linux Registered User # 302622
http://counter.li.org

"Rheilly Phoull" writes:

"N_Cook" wrote in message
...
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/sf2.jpg
No markings, a black potted box 7x7x 15mm external dimensions.
If a stepup transformer , why so small?

0.3 ohms between blue and red lead and 144 ohms between blue and brown
lead which goes directly to the trigger filament around the flash tube.
Red goes to ground and blue wire goes via 0.2uF, 250V capacitor to the SCR
cathode. 22mH and 20uH inductance
--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/

If you dont like small put it in a larger box, manufacturers are not known
for extragance and they tend to use the minium specs components.
Perhaps you may like to reword the question ?

It is definitely the trigger transformer. Typically a few primary turns,
a few hundred secondary turns, takes 150 V from a capacitor discharged
through the shutter contacts or an SCR, and produces 10kv or more to
the trigger wire or reflector of the flashlamp. But essentially no current.

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Sites: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above is
ignored unless my full name AND either lasers or electronics is included in the
subject line. Or, you can contact me via the Feedback Form in the FAQs.

Sam Goldwasser wrote in message
...
"Rheilly Phoull" writes:

"N_Cook" wrote in message
...
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/sf2.jpg
No markings, a black potted box 7x7x 15mm external dimensions.
If a stepup transformer , why so small?

0.3 ohms between blue and red lead and 144 ohms between blue and brown
lead which goes directly to the trigger filament around the flash
tube.
Red goes to ground and blue wire goes via 0.2uF, 250V capacitor to the
SCR
cathode. 22mH and 20uH inductance
--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/

If you dont like small put it in a larger box, manufacturers are not
known
for extragance and they tend to use the minium specs components.
Perhaps you may like to reword the question ?

It is definitely the trigger transformer. Typically a few primary turns,
a few hundred secondary turns, takes 150 V from a capacitor discharged
through the shutter contacts or an SCR, and produces 10kv or more to
the trigger wire or reflector of the flashlamp. But essentially no
current.

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Sites: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above
is
ignored unless my full name AND either lasers or electronics is included
in the
subject line. Or, you can contact me via the Feedback Form in the FAQs.

What seems strange is this transformer must be half or third of the volume
of the ones in compact camera flashes but the tube is perhaps 100x the
volume of the tube in one of those cameras (1cm diameter, 20cm long). Don't
know the joules rating of this one, a large studio flash unit, but 530V
standing voltage. Perhaps 2m of wire wrapped around the flash tube, as
trigger, all in all seems inadequtely tiny in comparison.

I think I'll try 2 camera ones in series with 100 ohms initially to try and
localise why not triggering. I may try subbing this tiny stepup transformer
with one 3 times the size from a compact camera, as am wondering if it could
be internally arcing actoss turns.


--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/

What seems strange is this transformer must be half or third of the volume
of the ones in compact camera flashes but the tube is perhaps 100x the
volume of the tube in one of those cameras (1cm diameter, 20cm long).
Don't
know the joules rating of this one, a large studio flash unit, but 530V
standing voltage. Perhaps 2m of wire wrapped around the flash tube, as
trigger, all in all seems inadequtely tiny in comparison.

I think I'll try 2 camera ones in series with 100 ohms initially to try
and
localise why not triggering. I may try subbing this tiny stepup
transformer
with one 3 times the size from a compact camera, as am wondering if it
could
be internally arcing actoss turns.



The size is virtually irrelevant, as Sam says, almost no current is
required. I've used a tiny trigger transformer salvaged from a disposable
camera to trigger a huge (about 8" long) 1KJ flash tube. Some are bigger,
some are smaller, it has more to do with age, manufacturing process, and the
need for compactness.

James Sweet wrote in message
news:ArnRj.637$PY5.15@trnddc01...



What seems strange is this transformer must be half or third of the
volume
of the ones in compact camera flashes but the tube is perhaps 100x the
volume of the tube in one of those cameras (1cm diameter, 20cm long).
Don't
know the joules rating of this one, a large studio flash unit, but 530V
standing voltage. Perhaps 2m of wire wrapped around the flash tube, as
trigger, all in all seems inadequtely tiny in comparison.

I think I'll try 2 camera ones in series with 100 ohms initially to try
and
localise why not triggering. I may try subbing this tiny stepup
transformer
with one 3 times the size from a compact camera, as am wondering if it
could
be internally arcing actoss turns.



The size is virtually irrelevant, as Sam says, almost no current is
required. I've used a tiny trigger transformer salvaged from a disposable
camera to trigger a huge (about 8" long) 1KJ flash tube. Some are bigger,
some are smaller, it has more to do with age, manufacturing process, and
the
need for compactness.



Is it possible to have a non-functional tube with no signs of problems ,
like the black patches on the ends of a fluourescent tube that is on the way
out.

This one looks perfect other than the glass is a bit dirty on the outside,
because the distributed trigger stops any cleaning. Not been dropped, no
cracked glass, no odd looking deposits on the elctrodes or on the inside of
the glass.


--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/

"N_Cook" wrote in message
...
James Sweet wrote in message
news:ArnRj.637$PY5.15@trnddc01...



What seems strange is this transformer must be half or third of the
volume
of the ones in compact camera flashes but the tube is perhaps 100x the
volume of the tube in one of those cameras (1cm diameter, 20cm long).
Don't
know the joules rating of this one, a large studio flash unit, but 530V
standing voltage. Perhaps 2m of wire wrapped around the flash tube, as
trigger, all in all seems inadequtely tiny in comparison.

I think I'll try 2 camera ones in series with 100 ohms initially to try
and
localise why not triggering. I may try subbing this tiny stepup
transformer
with one 3 times the size from a compact camera, as am wondering if it
could
be internally arcing actoss turns.



The size is virtually irrelevant, as Sam says, almost no current is
required. I've used a tiny trigger transformer salvaged from a disposable
camera to trigger a huge (about 8" long) 1KJ flash tube. Some are bigger,
some are smaller, it has more to do with age, manufacturing process, and
the
need for compactness.



Is it possible to have a non-functional tube with no signs of problems ,
like the black patches on the ends of a fluourescent tube that is on the
way
out.

This one looks perfect other than the glass is a bit dirty on the outside,
because the distributed trigger stops any cleaning. Not been dropped, no
cracked glass, no odd looking deposits on the elctrodes or on the inside
of
the glass.


--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/



Yes, it's possible, but not terribly likely. You should be able to test it
by applying voltage to the tube and using a piezo flame igniter to trigger
it.

"N_Cook" wrote in message
...
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/sf2.jpg
No markings, a black potted box 7x7x 15mm external dimensions.
If a stepup transformer , why so small?

0.3 ohms between blue and red lead and 144 ohms between blue and brown
lead
which goes directly to the trigger filament around the flash tube.
Red goes to ground and blue wire goes via 0.2uF, 250V capacitor to the SCR
cathode. 22mH and 20uH inductance

What is the problem, this is just a standard trigger transformer.
Normally the capacitor is charged up to 150V to 250V and then when the SCR
is turned on the 150V to 250V is applied across the primary of the
tranformer. The transformer steps up the voltage ( turns ratio about 20:1)
and generates a trigger voltage of 3 to 5 kV. This ionises the gas inside
the flash tube, and the resistance (impedance ?) is reduced sufficiently for
the 150V to 250V to strike across the tube.

The transformer is small because it only handles the tiny power to initiate
the flash in the first place. It does not handle the 50 J or whatever that
goes through the tube.

Ian.

James Sweet wrote in message
news:EkoRj.9384$E77.9069@trnddc05...


"N_Cook" wrote in message
...
James Sweet wrote in message
news:ArnRj.637$PY5.15@trnddc01...



What seems strange is this transformer must be half or third of the
volume
of the ones in compact camera flashes but the tube is perhaps 100x
the
volume of the tube in one of those cameras (1cm diameter, 20cm long).
Don't
know the joules rating of this one, a large studio flash unit, but
530V
standing voltage. Perhaps 2m of wire wrapped around the flash tube,
as
trigger, all in all seems inadequtely tiny in comparison.

I think I'll try 2 camera ones in series with 100 ohms initially to
try
and
localise why not triggering. I may try subbing this tiny stepup
transformer
with one 3 times the size from a compact camera, as am wondering if
it
could
be internally arcing actoss turns.



The size is virtually irrelevant, as Sam says, almost no current is
required. I've used a tiny trigger transformer salvaged from a
disposable
camera to trigger a huge (about 8" long) 1KJ flash tube. Some are
bigger,
some are smaller, it has more to do with age, manufacturing process,
and
the
need for compactness.



Is it possible to have a non-functional tube with no signs of problems ,
like the black patches on the ends of a fluourescent tube that is on the
way
out.

This one looks perfect other than the glass is a bit dirty on the
outside,
because the distributed trigger stops any cleaning. Not been dropped, no
cracked glass, no odd looking deposits on the elctrodes or on the inside
of
the glass.


--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/



Yes, it's possible, but not terribly likely. You should be able to test it
by applying voltage to the tube and using a piezo flame igniter to trigger
it.



I like that suggestion, just connect the arc pin of a piezo gaslighter to
the trigger wire, when the standing voltage is across the tube- pure,
minimilist test.

--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/

On Apr 28, 2:09*pm, "N_Cook" wrote:
James Sweet wrote in message

news:EkoRj.9384$E77.9069@trnddc05...







"N_Cook" wrote in message
...
James Sweet wrote in message
news:ArnRj.637$PY5.15@trnddc01...

What seems strange is this transformer must be half or third of the
volume
of the ones in compact camera flashes but the tube is perhaps 100x
the
volume of the tube in one of those cameras (1cm diameter, 20cm long).
Don't
know the joules rating of this one, a large studio flash unit, but
530V
standing voltage. Perhaps 2m of wire wrapped around the flash tube,
as
trigger, all in all *seems inadequtely tiny in comparison.

I think I'll try 2 camera ones in series with 100 ohms initially to
try
and
localise why not triggering. I may try subbing this tiny stepup
transformer
with one 3 times the size from a compact camera, as am wondering if
it
could
be internally arcing actoss turns.

The size is virtually irrelevant, as Sam says, almost no current is
required. I've used a tiny trigger transformer salvaged from a
disposable
camera to trigger a huge (about 8" long) 1KJ flash tube. Some are
bigger,
some are smaller, it has more to do with age, manufacturing process,
and
the
need for compactness.

Is it possible to have a non-functional tube with no signs of problems ,
like the black patches on the ends of a fluourescent tube that is on the
way
out.

This one looks perfect other than the glass is a bit dirty on the
outside,
because the distributed trigger stops any cleaning. Not been dropped, no
cracked glass, no odd looking deposits on the elctrodes or on the inside
of
the glass.

--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/

Yes, it's possible, but not terribly likely. You should be able to test it
by applying voltage to the tube and using a piezo flame igniter to trigger
it.

I like that suggestion, just connect the arc pin of a piezo gaslighter to
the trigger wire, when the standing voltage is across the tube- pure,
minimilist test.

--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list onhttp://home..graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Let us inow what you find.

This should be the trigger transformer. I have rarely seen these go bad.
I have had lamp and capacitor failures on flashes.

The output of the trigger transformer is normaly a few thousand volts at
extremely low current. The trigger pulse is usually in the order of
about 50 to about 500 ns depending on the flash output power demand.

--

JANA
_____


"N_Cook" wrote in message
...
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/sf2.jpg
No markings, a black potted box 7x7x 15mm external dimensions.
If a stepup transformer , why so small?

0.3 ohms between blue and red lead and 144 ohms between blue and brown
lead
which goes directly to the trigger filament around the flash tube.
Red goes to ground and blue wire goes via 0.2uF, 250V capacitor to the
SCR
cathode. 22mH and 20uH inductance

--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/

hr(bob) wrote in message
...
On Apr 28, 2:09 pm, "N_Cook" wrote:
James Sweet wrote in message

news:EkoRj.9384$E77.9069@trnddc05...







"N_Cook" wrote in message
...
James Sweet wrote in message
news:ArnRj.637$PY5.15@trnddc01...

What seems strange is this transformer must be half or third of the
volume
of the ones in compact camera flashes but the tube is perhaps 100x
the
volume of the tube in one of those cameras (1cm diameter, 20cm
long).
Don't
know the joules rating of this one, a large studio flash unit, but
530V
standing voltage. Perhaps 2m of wire wrapped around the flash tube,
as
trigger, all in all seems inadequtely tiny in comparison.

I think I'll try 2 camera ones in series with 100 ohms initially to
try
and
localise why not triggering. I may try subbing this tiny stepup
transformer
with one 3 times the size from a compact camera, as am wondering if
it
could
be internally arcing actoss turns.

The size is virtually irrelevant, as Sam says, almost no current is
required. I've used a tiny trigger transformer salvaged from a
disposable
camera to trigger a huge (about 8" long) 1KJ flash tube. Some are
bigger,
some are smaller, it has more to do with age, manufacturing process,
and
the
need for compactness.

Is it possible to have a non-functional tube with no signs of problems
,
like the black patches on the ends of a fluourescent tube that is on
the
way
out.

This one looks perfect other than the glass is a bit dirty on the
outside,
because the distributed trigger stops any cleaning. Not been dropped,
no
cracked glass, no odd looking deposits on the elctrodes or on the
inside
of
the glass.

--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/

Yes, it's possible, but not terribly likely. You should be able to test
it
by applying voltage to the tube and using a piezo flame igniter to
trigger
it.

I like that suggestion, just connect the arc pin of a piezo gaslighter to
the trigger wire, when the standing voltage is across the tube- pure,
minimilist test.

--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list
onhttp://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Let us inow what you find.


How do you test for lack of air in a xenon tube?
Putting a neon bulb and dropper over the trigger transformer gave plenty of
strike even in room lighting.
I've an old reserve piezo gas lighter that the metal grounding barrel on the
end falls off, ideal for testing this tube, but no flash over.
Trying to find a medium size xenon tube I have somewhere or will try with a
couple of copmpact camera xenon tubes or one removed from a xenon burglar
alarm flasher, both with some sort of droppers, later today

--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/

With 2 compact camera xenon tubes in series and a 1K, 10W dropper and the 2
camera trigger surfaces connected together to the existing trigger circuit,
it will reliably trigger the tubes to rather unstable continuous light ,
until I switch off , as 10W is not enough for continuous dropping.
I once triggered with the piezo gaslighter, proper trigger disconnected, but
didn't work the next few times.
The owner reported it would intermittently not work before giving up totally
, so I assumed it could not be a tube problem , well not gasifying anyway.
What can have gone wrong with the original tube ? Does the standing voltage
required to strike increase with age ?

--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/

"N_Cook" writes:

hr(bob) wrote in message
...
On Apr 28, 2:09 pm, "N_Cook" wrote:
James Sweet wrote in message

news:EkoRj.9384$E77.9069@trnddc05...







"N_Cook" wrote in message
...
James Sweet wrote in message
news:ArnRj.637$PY5.15@trnddc01...

What seems strange is this transformer must be half or third of the
volume
of the ones in compact camera flashes but the tube is perhaps 100x
the
volume of the tube in one of those cameras (1cm diameter, 20cm
long).
Don't
know the joules rating of this one, a large studio flash unit, but
530V
standing voltage. Perhaps 2m of wire wrapped around the flash tube,
as
trigger, all in all seems inadequtely tiny in comparison.

I think I'll try 2 camera ones in series with 100 ohms initially to
try
and
localise why not triggering. I may try subbing this tiny stepup
transformer
with one 3 times the size from a compact camera, as am wondering if
it
could
be internally arcing actoss turns.

The size is virtually irrelevant, as Sam says, almost no current is
required. I've used a tiny trigger transformer salvaged from a
disposable
camera to trigger a huge (about 8" long) 1KJ flash tube. Some are
bigger,
some are smaller, it has more to do with age, manufacturing process,
and
the
need for compactness.

Is it possible to have a non-functional tube with no signs of problems
,
like the black patches on the ends of a fluourescent tube that is on
the
way
out.

This one looks perfect other than the glass is a bit dirty on the
outside,
because the distributed trigger stops any cleaning. Not been dropped,
no
cracked glass, no odd looking deposits on the elctrodes or on the
inside
of
the glass.

--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/

Yes, it's possible, but not terribly likely. You should be able to test
it
by applying voltage to the tube and using a piezo flame igniter to
trigger
it.

I like that suggestion, just connect the arc pin of a piezo gaslighter to
the trigger wire, when the standing voltage is across the tube- pure,
minimilist test.

--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list
onhttp://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Let us inow what you find.


How do you test for lack of air in a xenon tube?
Putting a neon bulb and dropper over the trigger transformer gave plenty of
strike even in room lighting.
I've an old reserve piezo gas lighter that the metal grounding barrel on the
end falls off, ideal for testing this tube, but no flash over.
Trying to find a medium size xenon tube I have somewhere or will try with a
couple of copmpact camera xenon tubes or one removed from a xenon burglar
alarm flasher, both with some sort of droppers, later today

Basically that's it. Put 300-500 VDC across the tube and apply the output of
a Piezo lighter to trigger wire or reflector.

Or, if you have something like a helium-neon laser power supply or
neon sign transformer or oil burner ignition transformer, you can
apply its output through a ballst resistor to limit current across
the flashlamp. It should ionize.

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Sites: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above is
ignored unless my full name AND either lasers or electronics is included in the
subject line. Or, you can contact me via the Feedback Form in the FAQs.

"N_Cook" writes:

With 2 compact camera xenon tubes in series and a 1K, 10W dropper and the 2
camera trigger surfaces connected together to the existing trigger circuit,
it will reliably trigger the tubes to rather unstable continuous light ,
until I switch off , as 10W is not enough for continuous dropping.
I once triggered with the piezo gaslighter, proper trigger disconnected, but
didn't work the next few times.
The owner reported it would intermittently not work before giving up totally
, so I assumed it could not be a tube problem , well not gasifying anyway.
What can have gone wrong with the original tube ? Does the standing voltage
required to strike increase with age ?

Tubes can leak.

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Sites: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above is
ignored unless my full name AND either lasers or electronics is included in the
subject line. Or, you can contact me via the Feedback Form in the FAQs.

Sam Goldwasser wrote in message
...
"N_Cook" writes:

With 2 compact camera xenon tubes in series and a 1K, 10W dropper and
the 2
camera trigger surfaces connected together to the existing trigger
circuit,
it will reliably trigger the tubes to rather unstable continuous light ,
until I switch off , as 10W is not enough for continuous dropping.
I once triggered with the piezo gaslighter, proper trigger disconnected,
but
didn't work the next few times.
The owner reported it would intermittently not work before giving up
totally
, so I assumed it could not be a tube problem , well not gasifying
anyway.
What can have gone wrong with the original tube ? Does the standing
voltage
required to strike increase with age ?

Tubes can leak.

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Sites: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above
is
ignored unless my full name AND either lasers or electronics is included
in the
subject line. Or, you can contact me via the Feedback Form in the FAQs.

Could you have a very marginal leak over a couple of months leading to
intermittant problems ?
I would expect any leak to manifest itself as total failure in hours at the
most.


--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/

I've now tried 2 xenon beacon tubes in series and it works every time on
full or reduced settings. Also works every time with the piezo gaslighter
when iys ground plate is connected to the flash unit ground

I was always told that the clap of thunder was due to air refilling the gap
after being punched through by the lightening plasma arc.
That cannot be the reason for the pop when such xenon tubes fire as there is
no air inside them , why the pop?

What sort of power coming out as light in both cases.
Unknown original tube of 10mm diameter , 200 mm long
2 beacon tubes 6mm diameter, 140mm combined length

Supply is from 2 seriesed 1000uF capacitors with 300V on each
The beacon tubes are rated for 250V min , 500V maximum, nominal 400V
maximum energy input per flash: 45W /second, maximum flash rate at maximum
input power: 100/min

There is strike defeat, while recovering, sub-circuit and recovery time is
about 1/3 sec, don't know what it is with the original tube.

--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/

Could you have a very marginal leak over a couple of months leading to
intermittant problems ?
I would expect any leak to manifest itself as total failure in hours at
the
most.




Sure, you could have a leak small enough to take years to leak in enough air
to cause failure, it also may only leak under the stress of the tube firing.

I was always told that the clap of thunder was due to air refilling the
gap
after being punched through by the lightening plasma arc.
That cannot be the reason for the pop when such xenon tubes fire as there
is
no air inside them , why the pop?



"Air" is a mixture of gasses, Xenon tubes are filled with Xenon gas, so no
real difference from that perspective, both the earth and the flash tube
have an atmosphere of gas.

I thought the sound was the shockwave created by the rapidly heated column
of gas expanding, haven't really researched it though.

"James Sweet" wrote in
news:RcIRj.3347$WS1.1332@trndny04:



I was always told that the clap of thunder was due to air refilling
the gap
after being punched through by the lightening plasma arc.
That cannot be the reason for the pop when such xenon tubes fire as
there is
no air inside them , why the pop?



"Air" is a mixture of gasses, Xenon tubes are filled with Xenon gas,
so no real difference from that perspective, both the earth and the
flash tube have an atmosphere of gas.

I thought the sound was the shockwave created by the rapidly heated
column of gas expanding, haven't really researched it though.




your shockwave theory appears correct;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thunder

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

James Sweet wrote in message
news:RcIRj.3347$WS1.1332@trndny04...


I was always told that the clap of thunder was due to air refilling the
gap
after being punched through by the lightening plasma arc.
That cannot be the reason for the pop when such xenon tubes fire as
there
is
no air inside them , why the pop?



"Air" is a mixture of gasses, Xenon tubes are filled with Xenon gas, so no
real difference from that perspective, both the earth and the flash tube
have an atmosphere of gas.

I thought the sound was the shockwave created by the rapidly heated column
of gas expanding, haven't really researched it though.



surely there is only microbar of pressure in a xenon tube?
so nearer a vacuum
"in space no one can hear you scream"


--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/

"N_Cook" wrote in message
...
James Sweet wrote in message
news:RcIRj.3347$WS1.1332@trndny04...


I was always told that the clap of thunder was due to air refilling the
gap
after being punched through by the lightening plasma arc.
That cannot be the reason for the pop when such xenon tubes fire as
there
is
no air inside them , why the pop?



"Air" is a mixture of gasses, Xenon tubes are filled with Xenon gas, so
no
real difference from that perspective, both the earth and the flash tube
have an atmosphere of gas.

I thought the sound was the shockwave created by the rapidly heated
column
of gas expanding, haven't really researched it though.



surely there is only microbar of pressure in a xenon tube?
so nearer a vacuum
"in space no one can hear you scream"


--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/




According to an article I found, the pressure ranges from .01 to .1 Bar,
that's a LOT of gas compared to the vacuum of space.

You can get audible shockwaves in Nixie tubes by driving them multiplexed.
Those have a pressure of only a few mm.

Could you have a very marginal leak over a couple of months leading to
intermittant problems ?

I kind of doubt it, at least not at any level of probability that
matters.

I would expect any leak to manifest itself as total failure in hours at the
most.

Agreed if it's a real leak. I suppose it's possible for there to be
some sort of internal contamination that manifests itself usage.

If you have the flashlamp, you could test for ionization.

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Sites: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above is
ignored unless my full name AND either lasers or electronics is included in the
subject line. Or, you can contact me via the Feedback Form in the FAQs.

"N_Cook" writes:

I've now tried 2 xenon beacon tubes in series and it works every time on
full or reduced settings. Also works every time with the piezo gaslighter
when iys ground plate is connected to the flash unit ground

I was always told that the clap of thunder was due to air refilling the gap
after being punched through by the lightening plasma arc.
That cannot be the reason for the pop when such xenon tubes fire as there is
no air inside them , why the pop?

There's rather dramatic shock wave inside when the lamp fires. This
is transmitted via the walls of the tube to the air outside. Keep in
mind that the pressure in these is a significant fraction of 1 atm, not
like a neon sign or HeNe laser!

What sort of power coming out as light in both cases.
Unknown original tube of 10mm diameter , 200 mm long
2 beacon tubes 6mm diameter, 140mm combined length

Supply is from 2 seriesed 1000uF capacitors with 300V on each
The beacon tubes are rated for 250V min , 500V maximum, nominal 400V
maximum energy input per flash: 45W /second, maximum flash rate at maximum
input power: 100/min

There is strike defeat, while recovering, sub-circuit and recovery time is
about 1/3 sec, don't know what it is with the original tube.

Is there a question buried here somewhere?

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Sites: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above is
ignored unless my full name AND either lasers or electronics is included in the
subject line. Or, you can contact me via the Feedback Form in the FAQs.

"N_Cook" writes:

James Sweet wrote in message
news:RcIRj.3347$WS1.1332@trndny04...


I was always told that the clap of thunder was due to air refilling the
gap
after being punched through by the lightening plasma arc.
That cannot be the reason for the pop when such xenon tubes fire as
there
is
no air inside them , why the pop?



"Air" is a mixture of gasses, Xenon tubes are filled with Xenon gas, so no
real difference from that perspective, both the earth and the flash tube
have an atmosphere of gas.

I thought the sound was the shockwave created by the rapidly heated column
of gas expanding, haven't really researched it though.



surely there is only microbar of pressure in a xenon tube?
so nearer a vacuum "in space no one can hear you scream"

Actually, no. It may be near 1/2 atm.

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Sites: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above is
ignored unless my full name AND either lasers or electronics is included in the
subject line. Or, you can contact me via the Feedback Form in the FAQs.

Sam Goldwasser wrote in message
...
"N_Cook" writes:

I've now tried 2 xenon beacon tubes in series and it works every time on
full or reduced settings. Also works every time with the piezo
gaslighter
when iys ground plate is connected to the flash unit ground

I was always told that the clap of thunder was due to air refilling the
gap
after being punched through by the lightening plasma arc.
That cannot be the reason for the pop when such xenon tubes fire as
there is
no air inside them , why the pop?

There's rather dramatic shock wave inside when the lamp fires. This
is transmitted via the walls of the tube to the air outside. Keep in
mind that the pressure in these is a significant fraction of 1 atm, not
like a neon sign or HeNe laser!

What sort of power coming out as light in both cases.
Unknown original tube of 10mm diameter , 200 mm long
2 beacon tubes 6mm diameter, 140mm combined length

Supply is from 2 seriesed 1000uF capacitors with 300V on each
The beacon tubes are rated for 250V min , 500V maximum, nominal 400V
maximum energy input per flash: 45W /second, maximum flash rate at
maximum
input power: 100/min

There is strike defeat, while recovering, sub-circuit and recovery time
is
about 1/3 sec, don't know what it is with the original tube.

Is there a question buried here somewhere?

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Sites: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above
is
ignored unless my full name AND either lasers or electronics is included
in the
subject line. Or, you can contact me via the Feedback Form in the FAQs.

Now I've separated the tube from the reflector enough to clean the tube in
the area where it descends through the reflector
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:gra...xenon_tube.jpg
I can now see all is not well.
The cloudiness in the cathode end of the tube (only) is on the inside and
there is a patch of distinct blackening marked with a yellow line.
General black background is conductive foam for picture contrast , the
yellow wire is the trigger wire connected to the loops around the tube, no
silvering. The gaps 2 turns up of the spiral wrap at both anode and cathode,
would they be breaks or like that at manufacture?
It is after all 25 years of commercial photo studio use.
The slave action via LDR also checks out

Powering up, switching off, and triggering with piezo and measuring before
and after V then 42 joules per discharge per beacon tube. It may be
advantageous to wire in a pair more of these beacon tubes to make 4 , to
spread the load, at 2.50 GBP each compared to 70GBP for a not exact size and
fit single tube replacement.


--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/

"N_Cook" writes:

Sam Goldwasser wrote in message
...
"N_Cook" writes:

I've now tried 2 xenon beacon tubes in series and it works every time on
full or reduced settings. Also works every time with the piezo
gaslighter
when iys ground plate is connected to the flash unit ground

I was always told that the clap of thunder was due to air refilling the
gap
after being punched through by the lightening plasma arc.
That cannot be the reason for the pop when such xenon tubes fire as
there is
no air inside them , why the pop?

There's rather dramatic shock wave inside when the lamp fires. This
is transmitted via the walls of the tube to the air outside. Keep in
mind that the pressure in these is a significant fraction of 1 atm, not
like a neon sign or HeNe laser!

What sort of power coming out as light in both cases.
Unknown original tube of 10mm diameter , 200 mm long
2 beacon tubes 6mm diameter, 140mm combined length

Supply is from 2 seriesed 1000uF capacitors with 300V on each
The beacon tubes are rated for 250V min , 500V maximum, nominal 400V
maximum energy input per flash: 45W /second, maximum flash rate at
maximum
input power: 100/min

There is strike defeat, while recovering, sub-circuit and recovery time
is
about 1/3 sec, don't know what it is with the original tube.

Is there a question buried here somewhere?

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/

Now I've separated the tube from the reflector enough to clean the tube in
the area where it descends through the reflector
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:gra...xenon_tube.jpg
I can now see all is not well.
The cloudiness in the cathode end of the tube (only) is on the inside and
there is a patch of distinct blackening marked with a yellow line.
General black background is conductive foam for picture contrast , the
yellow wire is the trigger wire connected to the loops around the tube, no
silvering. The gaps 2 turns up of the spiral wrap at both anode and cathode,
would they be breaks or like that at manufacture?

It is after all 25 years of commercial photo studio use.
The slave action via LDR also checks out

The issue of the 2 turns of wire is probably irrelevant. The discoloration
is also not surprising after a lot of use. What do you want from the poor
thing after 25 years in a studio environment?

Powering up, switching off, and triggering with piezo and measuring before
and after V then 42 joules per discharge per beacon tube. It may be
advantageous to wire in a pair more of these beacon tubes to make 4 , to
spread the load, at 2.50 GBP each compared to 70GBP for a not exact size and
fit single tube replacement.

How much is your time worth? Kludging something with cheap flashlamps
may result in it failing quite quickly. If you're just doing this to
be able to demonstrate that it works, fine. If this is for a pyaing
customer, install the proper flashlamp!

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Sites: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above is
ignored unless my full name AND either lasers or electronics is included in the
subject line. Or, you can contact me via the Feedback Form in the FAQs.