This is the weirdest thing I've ever seen.

I'm repairing a sick Tek 1502 TDR. Several transistors are blown in
the power supply and the nicad pack looks like it's been overheated.

I replace the shorted parts and apply power through a variac,
slowly. WTF? I have the variac up to about 45 volts AC out of 120
and the power supply output voltages are up to normal! Even more
bizarre there's 12 volts across the main filter capacitor, rated at 16
volts! No way I can turn up the variac any more without blowing this
capacitor.

I first think: Aha, somebody set the jumpers to the wrong line
voltage!, But no, that's backwards thinking, I'm putting in 120, and
a quick look shows the jumpers are set properly, with the two
primaries in parallel, just as it should be for 120 VAC in.

Aha, I think, somebody replaced the power transformer with one meant
to put out 24 volts. But no, the tranny looks original, and the part
number matches the one on the schematic.

Now I'm totally stumped. It's the right transformer but it puts out
like 28 VAC no load instead of 12 to 14 volts expected.

Put the transformer on the LC bridge --

primary #1: 72.4 ohms 2.18H, Q = 8


Primary #2: 84.2 ohms, 2.2H, Q = 7

secondary: 89 mH, Q = 6


So apparently there are no opens or shorts.

Anybody have any idea how this transformer is violating the laws of
physics?

Ancient_Hacker wrote in message
oups.com...
This is the weirdest thing I've ever seen.

I'm repairing a sick Tek 1502 TDR. Several transistors are blown in
the power supply and the nicad pack looks like it's been overheated.

I replace the shorted parts and apply power through a variac,
slowly. WTF? I have the variac up to about 45 volts AC out of 120
and the power supply output voltages are up to normal! Even more
bizarre there's 12 volts across the main filter capacitor, rated at 16
volts! No way I can turn up the variac any more without blowing this
capacitor.

I first think: Aha, somebody set the jumpers to the wrong line
voltage!, But no, that's backwards thinking, I'm putting in 120, and
a quick look shows the jumpers are set properly, with the two
primaries in parallel, just as it should be for 120 VAC in.

Aha, I think, somebody replaced the power transformer with one meant
to put out 24 volts. But no, the tranny looks original, and the part
number matches the one on the schematic.

Now I'm totally stumped. It's the right transformer but it puts out
like 28 VAC no load instead of 12 to 14 volts expected.

Put the transformer on the LC bridge --

primary #1: 72.4 ohms 2.18H, Q = 8


Primary #2: 84.2 ohms, 2.2H, Q = 7

secondary: 89 mH, Q = 6


So apparently there are no opens or shorts.

Anybody have any idea how this transformer is violating the laws of
physics?


Loss of isolation between primary and secondary ?

--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/

Ancient_Hacker wrote:

This is the weirdest thing I've ever seen.

I'm repairing a sick Tek 1502 TDR. Several transistors are blown in
the power supply and the nicad pack looks like it's been overheated.

I replace the shorted parts and apply power through a variac,
slowly. WTF? I have the variac up to about 45 volts AC out of 120
and the power supply output voltages are up to normal! Even more
bizarre there's 12 volts across the main filter capacitor, rated at 16
volts! No way I can turn up the variac any more without blowing this
capacitor.

Are all of the outputs regulated? If so, the supply is exhibiting a
wide dynamic range. If your "main filter capacitor" is before
any regulation, perhaps it was replaced with an incorrect WVDC
rating? Is it feasible to disconnect all of the supply's outputs
for further analysis and testing? How about disconnecting the
transformer secondaries and running it at its rated input voltage
and monitoring its temperature (shorted turns in the primary)?

Regards,

Michael

On Aug 20, 7:46 am, Ancient_Hacker wrote:
This is the weirdest thing I've ever seen.

I'm repairing a sick Tek 1502 TDR. Several transistors are blown in
the power supply and the nicad pack looks like it's been overheated.

I replace the shorted parts and apply power through a variac,
slowly. WTF? I have the variac up to about 45 volts AC out of 120
and the power supply output voltages are up to normal! Even more
bizarre there's 12 volts across the main filter capacitor, rated at 16
volts! No way I can turn up the variac any more without blowing this
capacitor.

I first think: Aha, somebody set the jumpers to the wrong line
voltage!, But no, that's backwards thinking, I'm putting in 120, and
a quick look shows the jumpers are set properly, with the two
primaries in parallel, just as it should be for 120 VAC in.

Aha, I think, somebody replaced the power transformer with one meant
to put out 24 volts. But no, the tranny looks original, and the part
number matches the one on the schematic.

Now I'm totally stumped. It's the right transformer but it puts out
like 28 VAC no load instead of 12 to 14 volts expected.

Put the transformer on the LC bridge --

primary #1: 72.4 ohms 2.18H, Q = 8

Primary #2: 84.2 ohms, 2.2H, Q = 7

secondary: 89 mH, Q = 6

So apparently there are no opens or shorts.

Anybody have any idea how this transformer is violating the laws of
physics?

The unit appears to have a rectifier followed by a switch-mode power
supply. The rectified AC probably goes into the SMPS and is
supposed to have a constant low voltage output. There might/ust be a
failure in the feedback circuit that sets the output of the SMPS.

H. R. Hofmann

Thanks for all the suggestions. I think I've figured out what
happened, a bit far-fetched but here goes:

By taking the square-root of the primary to secondary inductance
ratios, we get a step-down ratio of nearly 5, which implies a step-
down ratio to 24 volts. Which is what we measure the transformer
providing.

Now that tranny goes into a full-wave bridge, then thru a SCR to the
12-volt nicad pack and 16V 470F capacitor.

A completely non-sensical situation.

Now a couple more observations:

(a) The transformer doesnt smell cooked, but it does have a few
droplets of varnish oozing out.
(b) Somebody replaced the dual AC line fuse holders with a single
fuse holder.
(c) The unit arrived with no fuse caps or fuses in the AC line fuse
holders.
(d) The nicads, although overheated and with 1983 date codes, are in
good electrical condition.
(e) These 1502's tend to get very beat up, as they're meant for
portable use in the field. This one looks like-new.
Not a scratch or scuff anywhere.



The only explanation I can come up with is:

(1) The guys at Tek wound the transformer wrong. Twice as many turns
on the secondary than required. They slapped the "0151-xxx" tek
sticker on it anyway.

(2) The transformer had just enough primary resistance to limit the
primary current to around one amp average.

(3) The nicad pack (remember, it looks overheated) acted like enough
of a zener to clamp the voltage to about 14 to 16 volts.

(4) The rest of the power supply aged very quickly with the
overvoltage, frying a transistor and a zener.

(5) ... and the unit ran just long enough for Tek to calibrate and
ship it.

(6) Since then it's been blowing AC line fuses every few minutes, bad
enough so someone rewired it to use just ONE line fuse.

(7) It's been used very little, probably put on a shelf as a
unreliable fuse-blower. That explains the good nicads and the
pristine condition.


Weird, but I don't see any other logical explanation!

You'd think Tek would have caught this, especially on such a pricey
unit.

"Ancient_Hacker" wrote in message
oups.com...

Thanks for all the suggestions. I think I've figured out what
happened, a bit far-fetched but here goes:

By taking the square-root of the primary to secondary inductance
ratios, we get a step-down ratio of nearly 5, which implies a step-
down ratio to 24 volts. Which is what we measure the transformer
providing.

Now that tranny goes into a full-wave bridge, then thru a SCR to the
12-volt nicad pack and 16V 470F capacitor.

A completely non-sensical situation.

Now a couple more observations:

(a) The transformer doesnt smell cooked, but it does have a few
droplets of varnish oozing out.
(b) Somebody replaced the dual AC line fuse holders with a single
fuse holder.
(c) The unit arrived with no fuse caps or fuses in the AC line fuse
holders.
(d) The nicads, although overheated and with 1983 date codes, are in
good electrical condition.
(e) These 1502's tend to get very beat up, as they're meant for
portable use in the field. This one looks like-new.
Not a scratch or scuff anywhere.



The only explanation I can come up with is:

(1) The guys at Tek wound the transformer wrong. Twice as many turns
on the secondary than required. They slapped the "0151-xxx" tek
sticker on it anyway.

(2) The transformer had just enough primary resistance to limit the
primary current to around one amp average.

(3) The nicad pack (remember, it looks overheated) acted like enough
of a zener to clamp the voltage to about 14 to 16 volts.

(4) The rest of the power supply aged very quickly with the
overvoltage, frying a transistor and a zener.

(5) ... and the unit ran just long enough for Tek to calibrate and
ship it.

(6) Since then it's been blowing AC line fuses every few minutes, bad
enough so someone rewired it to use just ONE line fuse.

(7) It's been used very little, probably put on a shelf as a
unreliable fuse-blower. That explains the good nicads and the
pristine condition.


Weird, but I don't see any other logical explanation!

You'd think Tek would have caught this, especially on such a pricey
unit.



Like most everything else - Quality Control has gone to hell - too. Its all
about the "buck" - never mind how you get it.
Years ago - I sent in a piece of test equipment to the manufacturere - to be
repaired and calibrated. I paid like $15 to ship and $75 for repairs. They
"supposedly" fixed it and shipped it back. I had it a week and it did the
same damned thing. So much for that. I wasn't about to shell out another $15
to ship it again. I called the company to complain and they told me how to
fix it myself - to which I asked - then what did I pay you for? I finally
acquired a schematic and repaired and aligned it myself.

These companies are becoming a real trip to deal with. They want top dollar
for their stuff, make it cheap and expect top dollar to repair it. The
consumer gets screwed. Lately it is more so the case - than not.

L.

"Radiosrfun" wrote in message
...



Like most everything else - Quality Control has gone to hell - too. Its
all about the "buck" - never mind how you get it.
Years ago - I sent in a piece of test equipment to the manufacturere - to
be repaired and calibrated. I paid like $15 to ship and $75 for repairs.
They "supposedly" fixed it and shipped it back. I had it a week and it did
the same damned thing. So much for that. I wasn't about to shell out
another $15 to ship it again. I called the company to complain and they
told me how to fix it myself - to which I asked - then what did I pay you
for? I finally acquired a schematic and repaired and aligned it myself.

These companies are becoming a real trip to deal with. They want top
dollar for their stuff, make it cheap and expect top dollar to repair it.
The consumer gets screwed. Lately it is more so the case - than not.

I agree, and the way the whole world is now geared to buy and throw away IMO
almost borders on the obscene.

A classic example, about 4 years ago my wife bought me quite an expensive
electric razor. A year ago it stopped working and from memory the last one I
looked at (a very long time ago!) consisted of an extremely simple kind of
(virtually foolproof) vibrating AC powered motor which drove the cutting
head to and fro.

However on dismantling this one I was surprised to find a small electric
motor and a SOPS (self oscillating power supply) and I found out pretty
quickly that the problem was due to an open circuit quarter watt 2.2 meg
resistor, total cost to replace about two pence and suffice to say that the
razor has been functioning perfectly ever since.

Now I understand perfectly well about labour costs, which would probably
have ruled taking it to a service depot and having it repaired, but at same
time I couldn't help wondering how many electrical items are dumped into
landfills every single day, just for the sake of a couple of pennies worth
of components.. probably millions on a worldwide basis, which to me begs the
question, just how much longer can our profligate lifestyles be sustained?


L.

"Ivan" wrote in message
. ..

"Radiosrfun" wrote in message
...



Like most everything else - Quality Control has gone to hell - too. Its
all about the "buck" - never mind how you get it.
Years ago - I sent in a piece of test equipment to the manufacturere - to
be repaired and calibrated. I paid like $15 to ship and $75 for repairs.
They "supposedly" fixed it and shipped it back. I had it a week and it
did the same damned thing. So much for that. I wasn't about to shell out
another $15 to ship it again. I called the company to complain and they
told me how to fix it myself - to which I asked - then what did I pay you
for? I finally acquired a schematic and repaired and aligned it myself.

These companies are becoming a real trip to deal with. They want top
dollar for their stuff, make it cheap and expect top dollar to repair it.
The consumer gets screwed. Lately it is more so the case - than not.

I agree, and the way the whole world is now geared to buy and throw away
IMO almost borders on the obscene.

A classic example, about 4 years ago my wife bought me quite an expensive
electric razor. A year ago it stopped working and from memory the last one
I looked at (a very long time ago!) consisted of an extremely simple kind
of (virtually foolproof) vibrating AC powered motor which drove the
cutting head to and fro.

However on dismantling this one I was surprised to find a small electric
motor and a SOPS (self oscillating power supply) and I found out pretty
quickly that the problem was due to an open circuit quarter watt 2.2 meg
resistor, total cost to replace about two pence and suffice to say that
the razor has been functioning perfectly ever since.

Now I understand perfectly well about labour costs, which would probably
have ruled taking it to a service depot and having it repaired, but at
same time I couldn't help wondering how many electrical items are dumped
into landfills every single day, just for the sake of a couple of pennies
worth of components.. probably millions on a worldwide basis, which to me
begs the question, just how much longer can our profligate lifestyles be
sustained?


L.



When I was in Elementary School - they showed us "Film Clips" of "Recycling
Plants" - to do paper, glass, cans, etc.... Said a few existed in the world
but more to come - it was the way of the future - to recycle and save our
environment. Yet - here we are - producing JUNK - and filling the landfills
with it all - and as for "Recycling" - it is NOT used in all areas for the
"Intended" items and certainly not for electronics. Yeah, I agree - sooner
or later - we're going to have some real problems.

One of the bigger towns near me "started" to do Recycling, but like all
"phases" - it passed. People are using the allocated color coded bins - for
other things now - much like those milk crates you buy in a store. "Our"
community has never offered recycling.

L.

"Radiosrfun" wrote in message
...
"Ivan" wrote in message
. ..

"Radiosrfun" wrote in message
...



Like most everything else - Quality Control has gone to hell - too. Its
all about the "buck" - never mind how you get it.
Years ago - I sent in a piece of test equipment to the manufacturere -
to be repaired and calibrated. I paid like $15 to ship and $75 for
repairs. They "supposedly" fixed it and shipped it back. I had it a week
and it did the same damned thing. So much for that. I wasn't about to
shell out another $15 to ship it again. I called the company to complain
and they told me how to fix it myself - to which I asked - then what did
I pay you for? I finally acquired a schematic and repaired and aligned
it myself.

These companies are becoming a real trip to deal with. They want top
dollar for their stuff, make it cheap and expect top dollar to repair
it. The consumer gets screwed. Lately it is more so the case - than not.

I agree, and the way the whole world is now geared to buy and throw away
IMO almost borders on the obscene.

A classic example, about 4 years ago my wife bought me quite an expensive
electric razor. A year ago it stopped working and from memory the last
one I looked at (a very long time ago!) consisted of an extremely simple
kind of (virtually foolproof) vibrating AC powered motor which drove the
cutting head to and fro.

However on dismantling this one I was surprised to find a small electric
motor and a SOPS (self oscillating power supply) and I found out pretty
quickly that the problem was due to an open circuit quarter watt 2.2 meg
resistor, total cost to replace about two pence and suffice to say that
the razor has been functioning perfectly ever since.

Now I understand perfectly well about labour costs, which would probably
have ruled taking it to a service depot and having it repaired, but at
same time I couldn't help wondering how many electrical items are dumped
into landfills every single day, just for the sake of a couple of pennies
worth of components.. probably millions on a worldwide basis, which to me
begs the question, just how much longer can our profligate lifestyles be
sustained?


L.



When I was in Elementary School - they showed us "Film Clips" of
"Recycling Plants" - to do paper, glass, cans, etc.... Said a few existed
in the world but more to come - it was the way of the future - to recycle
and save our environment. Yet - here we are - producing JUNK - and filling
the landfills with it all - and as for "Recycling" - it is NOT used in all
areas for the "Intended" items and certainly not for electronics. Yeah, I
agree - sooner or later - we're going to have some real problems.

One of the bigger towns near me "started" to do Recycling, but like all
"phases" - it passed. People are using the allocated color coded bins -
for other things now - much like those milk crates you buy in a store.
"Our" community has never offered recycling.



I don't know if it's the same where you are, but in one of the side effects
now beginning to manifest itself here in the UK is the increasingly growing
numbers of ancient churches having the lead stripped off their roofs and
even railways and electricity substations are also being targeted and
literally put out of action because of copper cable and fittings being
stolen. Apparently there is now such a famine of raw materials in China that
scrap metal is becoming a very big and lucrative business.



L.

Ivan wrote in message
.. .

"Radiosrfun" wrote in message
...
"Ivan" wrote in message
. ..

"Radiosrfun" wrote in message
...



Like most everything else - Quality Control has gone to hell - too.
Its
all about the "buck" - never mind how you get it.
Years ago - I sent in a piece of test equipment to the manufacturere -
to be repaired and calibrated. I paid like $15 to ship and $75 for
repairs. They "supposedly" fixed it and shipped it back. I had it a
week
and it did the same damned thing. So much for that. I wasn't about to
shell out another $15 to ship it again. I called the company to
complain
and they told me how to fix it myself - to which I asked - then what
did
I pay you for? I finally acquired a schematic and repaired and aligned
it myself.

These companies are becoming a real trip to deal with. They want top
dollar for their stuff, make it cheap and expect top dollar to repair
it. The consumer gets screwed. Lately it is more so the case - than
not.

I agree, and the way the whole world is now geared to buy and throw
away
IMO almost borders on the obscene.

A classic example, about 4 years ago my wife bought me quite an
expensive
electric razor. A year ago it stopped working and from memory the last
one I looked at (a very long time ago!) consisted of an extremely
simple
kind of (virtually foolproof) vibrating AC powered motor which drove
the
cutting head to and fro.

However on dismantling this one I was surprised to find a small
electric
motor and a SOPS (self oscillating power supply) and I found out pretty
quickly that the problem was due to an open circuit quarter watt 2.2
meg
resistor, total cost to replace about two pence and suffice to say that
the razor has been functioning perfectly ever since.

Now I understand perfectly well about labour costs, which would
probably
have ruled taking it to a service depot and having it repaired, but at
same time I couldn't help wondering how many electrical items are
dumped
into landfills every single day, just for the sake of a couple of
pennies
worth of components.. probably millions on a worldwide basis, which to
me
begs the question, just how much longer can our profligate lifestyles
be
sustained?


L.



When I was in Elementary School - they showed us "Film Clips" of
"Recycling Plants" - to do paper, glass, cans, etc.... Said a few
existed
in the world but more to come - it was the way of the future - to
recycle
and save our environment. Yet - here we are - producing JUNK - and
filling
the landfills with it all - and as for "Recycling" - it is NOT used in
all
areas for the "Intended" items and certainly not for electronics. Yeah,
I
agree - sooner or later - we're going to have some real problems.

One of the bigger towns near me "started" to do Recycling, but like all
"phases" - it passed. People are using the allocated color coded bins -
for other things now - much like those milk crates you buy in a store.
"Our" community has never offered recycling.



I don't know if it's the same where you are, but in one of the side
effects
now beginning to manifest itself here in the UK is the increasingly
growing
numbers of ancient churches having the lead stripped off their roofs and
even railways and electricity substations are also being targeted and
literally put out of action because of copper cable and fittings being
stolen. Apparently there is now such a famine of raw materials in China
that
scrap metal is becoming a very big and lucrative business.



L.



This used to be a third world phenomenon
in the last month in the UK
http://www.24dash.com/localgovernment/25306.htm
80 drain covers have gone missing from the Wokingham Borough Council
district.

http://www.hertsad.co.uk/content/her...ADOnline&categ
ory=News&tBrand=herts24&tCategory=newshadnew&itemi d=WEED09%20Aug%202007%2011
%3A10%3A03%3A053
Hatfield and Brookmans Park and more than 200 drain covers have been taken.

http://www.burnhamandhighbridgeweekl...nham/display.v
ar.1615032.0.a_drain_on_resources.php
More than 60 have been stolen in the past two weeks.

"N Cook" wrote in message
...
Ivan wrote in message
.. .

"Radiosrfun" wrote in message
...



When I was in Elementary School - they showed us "Film Clips" of
"Recycling Plants" - to do paper, glass, cans, etc.... Said a few
existed
in the world but more to come - it was the way of the future - to
recycle
and save our environment. Yet - here we are - producing JUNK - and
filling
the landfills with it all - and as for "Recycling" - it is NOT used in
all
areas for the "Intended" items and certainly not for electronics. Yeah,
I
agree - sooner or later - we're going to have some real problems.

One of the bigger towns near me "started" to do Recycling, but like all
"phases" - it passed. People are using the allocated color coded bins -
for other things now - much like those milk crates you buy in a store.
"Our" community has never offered recycling.



I don't know if it's the same where you are, but in one of the side
effects
now beginning to manifest itself here in the UK is the increasingly
growing
numbers of ancient churches having the lead stripped off their roofs and
even railways and electricity substations are also being targeted and
literally put out of action because of copper cable and fittings being
stolen. Apparently there is now such a famine of raw materials in China
that
scrap metal is becoming a very big and lucrative business.



L.



This used to be a third world phenomenon
in the last month in the UK
http://www.24dash.com/localgovernment/25306.htm
80 drain covers have gone missing from the Wokingham Borough Council
district.

http://www.hertsad.co.uk/content/her...ADOnline&categ
ory=News&tBrand=herts24&tCategory=newshadnew&itemi d=WEED09%20Aug%202007%2011
%3A10%3A03%3A053
Hatfield and Brookmans Park and more than 200 drain covers have been
taken.

http://www.burnhamandhighbridgeweekl...nham/display.v
ar.1615032.0.a_drain_on_resources.php
More than 60 have been stolen in the past two weeks.



Without wishing to stray too far off topic on a non political newsgroup, it
certainly depresses me to think just how rapidly our fragile materialistic
societies would descend into anarchy if the global economy abruptly went to
tits up... here is a link to a local news report from just a few days ago
http://tinyurl.com/2xt2qr

"Ivan" wrote in message
.. .

"Radiosrfun" wrote in message
...
"Ivan" wrote in message
. ..

"Radiosrfun" wrote in message
...



Like most everything else - Quality Control has gone to hell - too. Its
all about the "buck" - never mind how you get it.
Years ago - I sent in a piece of test equipment to the manufacturere -
to be repaired and calibrated. I paid like $15 to ship and $75 for
repairs. They "supposedly" fixed it and shipped it back. I had it a
week and it did the same damned thing. So much for that. I wasn't about
to shell out another $15 to ship it again. I called the company to
complain and they told me how to fix it myself - to which I asked -
then what did I pay you for? I finally acquired a schematic and
repaired and aligned it myself.

These companies are becoming a real trip to deal with. They want top
dollar for their stuff, make it cheap and expect top dollar to repair
it. The consumer gets screwed. Lately it is more so the case - than
not.

I agree, and the way the whole world is now geared to buy and throw away
IMO almost borders on the obscene.

A classic example, about 4 years ago my wife bought me quite an
expensive electric razor. A year ago it stopped working and from memory
the last one I looked at (a very long time ago!) consisted of an
extremely simple kind of (virtually foolproof) vibrating AC powered
motor which drove the cutting head to and fro.

However on dismantling this one I was surprised to find a small electric
motor and a SOPS (self oscillating power supply) and I found out pretty
quickly that the problem was due to an open circuit quarter watt 2.2 meg
resistor, total cost to replace about two pence and suffice to say that
the razor has been functioning perfectly ever since.

Now I understand perfectly well about labour costs, which would probably
have ruled taking it to a service depot and having it repaired, but at
same time I couldn't help wondering how many electrical items are dumped
into landfills every single day, just for the sake of a couple of
pennies worth of components.. probably millions on a worldwide basis,
which to me begs the question, just how much longer can our profligate
lifestyles be sustained?


L.



When I was in Elementary School - they showed us "Film Clips" of
"Recycling Plants" - to do paper, glass, cans, etc.... Said a few existed
in the world but more to come - it was the way of the future - to recycle
and save our environment. Yet - here we are - producing JUNK - and
filling the landfills with it all - and as for "Recycling" - it is NOT
used in all areas for the "Intended" items and certainly not for
electronics. Yeah, I agree - sooner or later - we're going to have some
real problems.

One of the bigger towns near me "started" to do Recycling, but like all
"phases" - it passed. People are using the allocated color coded bins -
for other things now - much like those milk crates you buy in a store.
"Our" community has never offered recycling.



I don't know if it's the same where you are, but in one of the side
effects now beginning to manifest itself here in the UK is the
increasingly growing numbers of ancient churches having the lead stripped
off their roofs and even railways and electricity substations are also
being targeted and literally put out of action because of copper cable and
fittings being stolen. Apparently there is now such a famine of raw
materials in China that scrap metal is becoming a very big and lucrative
business.



L.



Some areas a few miles from me have had copper stolen from homes (plumbing,
etc) being built, siding stolen off the homes being built "and" lived in.
Theives went to places where stockpiles were kept - too some of it. Some
were even stealing the bronze flower vases off of Cemetary markers. Was it
for "China" - I don't know - but doubt it. Probably more like "drugs". Some
idiot tried his luck here ripping out plumbing from a home of a
"vacationer" - and let the water run - doing about $10,000 worth of damage.
He was busted in a week. Our cops caught him as he was making last minute
reservations to go to Florida. That was his first and last stint - here in
town.

L.

"Radiosrfun" wrote in message
...



Some areas a few miles from me have had copper stolen from homes
(plumbing, etc) being built, siding stolen off the homes being built "and"
lived in. Theives went to places where stockpiles were kept - too some of
it. Some were even stealing the bronze flower vases off of Cemetary
markers. Was it for "China" - I don't know - but doubt it. Probably more
like "drugs". Some idiot tried his luck here ripping out plumbing from a
home of a "vacationer" - and let the water run - doing about $10,000 worth
of damage. He was busted in a week. Our cops caught him as he was making
last minute reservations to go to Florida. That was his first and last
stint - here in town.

It sounds like your local police are more on on the ball than ours, although
I love the Simpsons, simply because IMHO it appears to reflect just how
alike our two societies are.. For instance I was watching an old episode the
other day when Homer rang the local police station, an answerphone cut in
and said something to the effect of "The Springfield police station is now
closed., if you are reporting a felony press one, If you're reporting a"..
As far as our local police station is concerned it sounded about right to
me!


L.

"Radiosrfun" wrote in message
...
"Ivan" wrote in message
.. .

"Radiosrfun" wrote in message
...
"Ivan" wrote in message
. ..

"Radiosrfun" wrote in message
...



Like most everything else - Quality Control has gone to hell - too.
Its all about the "buck" - never mind how you get it.
Years ago - I sent in a piece of test equipment to the manufacturere -
to be repaired and calibrated. I paid like $15 to ship and $75 for
repairs. They "supposedly" fixed it and shipped it back. I had it a
week and it did the same damned thing. So much for that. I wasn't
about to shell out another $15 to ship it again. I called the company
to complain and they told me how to fix it myself - to which I asked -
then what did I pay you for? I finally acquired a schematic and
repaired and aligned it myself.

These companies are becoming a real trip to deal with. They want top
dollar for their stuff, make it cheap and expect top dollar to repair
it. The consumer gets screwed. Lately it is more so the case - than
not.

I agree, and the way the whole world is now geared to buy and throw
away IMO almost borders on the obscene.

A classic example, about 4 years ago my wife bought me quite an
expensive electric razor. A year ago it stopped working and from memory
the last one I looked at (a very long time ago!) consisted of an
extremely simple kind of (virtually foolproof) vibrating AC powered
motor which drove the cutting head to and fro.

However on dismantling this one I was surprised to find a small
electric motor and a SOPS (self oscillating power supply) and I found
out pretty quickly that the problem was due to an open circuit quarter
watt 2.2 meg resistor, total cost to replace about two pence and
suffice to say that the razor has been functioning perfectly ever
since.

Now I understand perfectly well about labour costs, which would
probably have ruled taking it to a service depot and having it
repaired, but at same time I couldn't help wondering how many
electrical items are dumped into landfills every single day, just for
the sake of a couple of pennies worth of components.. probably millions
on a worldwide basis, which to me begs the question, just how much
longer can our profligate lifestyles be sustained?


L.



When I was in Elementary School - they showed us "Film Clips" of
"Recycling Plants" - to do paper, glass, cans, etc.... Said a few
existed in the world but more to come - it was the way of the future -
to recycle and save our environment. Yet - here we are - producing
JUNK - and filling the landfills with it all - and as for "Recycling" -
it is NOT used in all areas for the "Intended" items and certainly not
for electronics. Yeah, I agree - sooner or later - we're going to have
some real problems.

One of the bigger towns near me "started" to do Recycling, but like all
"phases" - it passed. People are using the allocated color coded bins -
for other things now - much like those milk crates you buy in a store.
"Our" community has never offered recycling.



I don't know if it's the same where you are, but in one of the side
effects now beginning to manifest itself here in the UK is the
increasingly growing numbers of ancient churches having the lead
stripped off their roofs and even railways and electricity substations
are also being targeted and literally put out of action because of copper
cable and fittings being stolen. Apparently there is now such a famine of
raw materials in China that scrap metal is becoming a very big and
lucrative business.



L.



Some areas a few miles from me have had copper stolen from homes
(plumbing, etc) being built, siding stolen off the homes being built "and"
lived in. Theives went to places where stockpiles were kept - too some of
it. Some were even stealing the bronze flower vases off of Cemetary
markers. Was it for "China" - I don't know - but doubt it. Probably more
like "drugs". Some idiot tried his luck here ripping out plumbing from a
home of a "vacationer" - and let the water run - doing about $10,000 worth
of damage. He was busted in a week. Our cops caught him as he was making
last minute reservations to go to Florida. That was his first and last
stint - here in town.

L.
My 85 year old mother had lead flashing stolen off her house during the day
whilst she was in, a few weeks ago. The 1000 year old Saxon church in my
village also had a large quantity of lead stolen from one of the roofs which
form a more modern part of it. Apparently, road signs are also being stolen
all over the country, and are now being replaced with glass fibre composite
ones, which actually have a sticker on the back which says "NO SCRAP VALUE".
Sad what the world is coming to ...

Arfa

"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...

"Radiosrfun" wrote in message
...
"Ivan" wrote in message
.. .

"Radiosrfun" wrote in message
...
"Ivan" wrote in message
. ..

"Radiosrfun" wrote in message
...



Like most everything else - Quality Control has gone to hell - too.
Its all about the "buck" - never mind how you get it.
Years ago - I sent in a piece of test equipment to the
manufacturere - to be repaired and calibrated. I paid like $15 to
ship and $75 for repairs. They "supposedly" fixed it and shipped it
back. I had it a week and it did the same damned thing. So much for
that. I wasn't about to shell out another $15 to ship it again. I
called the company to complain and they told me how to fix it
myself - to which I asked - then what did I pay you for? I finally
acquired a schematic and repaired and aligned it myself.

These companies are becoming a real trip to deal with. They want top
dollar for their stuff, make it cheap and expect top dollar to repair
it. The consumer gets screwed. Lately it is more so the case - than
not.

I agree, and the way the whole world is now geared to buy and throw
away IMO almost borders on the obscene.

A classic example, about 4 years ago my wife bought me quite an
expensive electric razor. A year ago it stopped working and from
memory the last one I looked at (a very long time ago!) consisted of
an extremely simple kind of (virtually foolproof) vibrating AC powered
motor which drove the cutting head to and fro.

However on dismantling this one I was surprised to find a small
electric motor and a SOPS (self oscillating power supply) and I found
out pretty quickly that the problem was due to an open circuit quarter
watt 2.2 meg resistor, total cost to replace about two pence and
suffice to say that the razor has been functioning perfectly ever
since.

Now I understand perfectly well about labour costs, which would
probably have ruled taking it to a service depot and having it
repaired, but at same time I couldn't help wondering how many
electrical items are dumped into landfills every single day, just for
the sake of a couple of pennies worth of components.. probably
millions on a worldwide basis, which to me begs the question, just how
much longer can our profligate lifestyles be sustained?


L.



When I was in Elementary School - they showed us "Film Clips" of
"Recycling Plants" - to do paper, glass, cans, etc.... Said a few
existed in the world but more to come - it was the way of the future -
to recycle and save our environment. Yet - here we are - producing
JUNK - and filling the landfills with it all - and as for "Recycling" -
it is NOT used in all areas for the "Intended" items and certainly not
for electronics. Yeah, I agree - sooner or later - we're going to have
some real problems.

One of the bigger towns near me "started" to do Recycling, but like all
"phases" - it passed. People are using the allocated color coded bins -
for other things now - much like those milk crates you buy in a store.
"Our" community has never offered recycling.



I don't know if it's the same where you are, but in one of the side
effects now beginning to manifest itself here in the UK is the
increasingly growing numbers of ancient churches having the lead
stripped off their roofs and even railways and electricity substations
are also being targeted and literally put out of action because of
copper cable and fittings being stolen. Apparently there is now such a
famine of raw materials in China that scrap metal is becoming a very big
and lucrative business.



L.



Some areas a few miles from me have had copper stolen from homes
(plumbing, etc) being built, siding stolen off the homes being built
"and" lived in. Theives went to places where stockpiles were kept - too
some of it. Some were even stealing the bronze flower vases off of
Cemetary markers. Was it for "China" - I don't know - but doubt it.
Probably more like "drugs". Some idiot tried his luck here ripping out
plumbing from a home of a "vacationer" - and let the water run - doing
about $10,000 worth of damage. He was busted in a week. Our cops caught
him as he was making last minute reservations to go to Florida. That was
his first and last stint - here in town.

L.
My 85 year old mother had lead flashing stolen off her house during the
day whilst she was in, a few weeks ago. The 1000 year old Saxon church in
my village also had a large quantity of lead stolen from one of the roofs
which form a more modern part of it. Apparently, road signs are also being
stolen all over the country, and are now being replaced with glass fibre
composite ones, which actually have a sticker on the back which says "NO
SCRAP VALUE". Sad what the world is coming to ...

Arfa


Not to mince words with you Arfa - but I think DISGUSTING is a better term.

L.

"Ivan" wrote in message
.. .

"Radiosrfun" wrote in message
...



Some areas a few miles from me have had copper stolen from homes
(plumbing, etc) being built, siding stolen off the homes being built
"and" lived in. Theives went to places where stockpiles were kept - too
some of it. Some were even stealing the bronze flower vases off of
Cemetary markers. Was it for "China" - I don't know - but doubt it.
Probably more like "drugs". Some idiot tried his luck here ripping out
plumbing from a home of a "vacationer" - and let the water run - doing
about $10,000 worth of damage. He was busted in a week. Our cops caught
him as he was making last minute reservations to go to Florida. That was
his first and last stint - here in town.

It sounds like your local police are more on on the ball than ours,
although I love the Simpsons, simply because IMHO it appears to reflect
just how alike our two societies are.. For instance I was watching an old
episode the other day when Homer rang the local police station, an
answerphone cut in and said something to the effect of "The Springfield
police station is now closed., if you are reporting a felony press one, If
you're reporting a".. As far as our local police station is concerned it
sounded about right to me!


L.



Well, there is a sort of humorous side to this and almost in respect with
your experience. See - we have a 911 system in place here. IF you have an
emergency - whatever it is, you call 911, they dispatch the Police, Fire,
EMS, whatever. Yet, our local police have had a couple idiots call the
"Station" - to report an accident OR breakin - whatever - and with the way
our police are set up no one is in the station when they're on patrol. So -
these idiots wonder why the police don't show up lickity split when they
call. DUH - they weren't there to get the message. If they had called 911 as
they should have, the police would have got the call from 911 immediately.
This 911 system has been in play since 1994. You would think they'd get it
in their head by now - 2007.

As to our police being on the ball - they are - I have to give credit where
credit is due. The funny thing is, many underestimate them. They look at
them as being the Keystone cops. I can honestly say - not many of their
crimes have went unsolved. The only one they had issues with - was a guy who
"allegedly" murdered someone here - and skipped country to one who doesn't
reciprocate with sending them back here. We get crime waves about once a
year - usually some ass hole from out of town. I work hand in association
with a couple of those guys almost daily - and they're pretty good Joe's.

L.

"Radiosrfun" wrote in message
...
"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...

"Radiosrfun" wrote in message
...
"Ivan" wrote in message
.. .

"Radiosrfun" wrote in message
...
"Ivan" wrote in message
. ..

"Radiosrfun" wrote in message
...



Like most everything else - Quality Control has gone to hell - too.
Its all about the "buck" - never mind how you get it.
Years ago - I sent in a piece of test equipment to the
manufacturere - to be repaired and calibrated. I paid like $15 to
ship and $75 for repairs. They "supposedly" fixed it and shipped it
back. I had it a week and it did the same damned thing. So much for
that. I wasn't about to shell out another $15 to ship it again. I
called the company to complain and they told me how to fix it
myself - to which I asked - then what did I pay you for? I finally
acquired a schematic and repaired and aligned it myself.

These companies are becoming a real trip to deal with. They want top
dollar for their stuff, make it cheap and expect top dollar to
repair it. The consumer gets screwed. Lately it is more so the
case - than not.

I agree, and the way the whole world is now geared to buy and throw
away IMO almost borders on the obscene.

A classic example, about 4 years ago my wife bought me quite an
expensive electric razor. A year ago it stopped working and from
memory the last one I looked at (a very long time ago!) consisted of
an extremely simple kind of (virtually foolproof) vibrating AC
powered motor which drove the cutting head to and fro.

However on dismantling this one I was surprised to find a small
electric motor and a SOPS (self oscillating power supply) and I found
out pretty quickly that the problem was due to an open circuit
quarter watt 2.2 meg resistor, total cost to replace about two pence
and suffice to say that the razor has been functioning perfectly ever
since.

Now I understand perfectly well about labour costs, which would
probably have ruled taking it to a service depot and having it
repaired, but at same time I couldn't help wondering how many
electrical items are dumped into landfills every single day, just for
the sake of a couple of pennies worth of components.. probably
millions on a worldwide basis, which to me begs the question, just
how much longer can our profligate lifestyles be sustained?


L.



When I was in Elementary School - they showed us "Film Clips" of
"Recycling Plants" - to do paper, glass, cans, etc.... Said a few
existed in the world but more to come - it was the way of the future -
to recycle and save our environment. Yet - here we are - producing
JUNK - and filling the landfills with it all - and as for
"Recycling" - it is NOT used in all areas for the "Intended" items and
certainly not for electronics. Yeah, I agree - sooner or later - we're
going to have some real problems.

One of the bigger towns near me "started" to do Recycling, but like
all "phases" - it passed. People are using the allocated color coded
bins - for other things now - much like those milk crates you buy in a
store. "Our" community has never offered recycling.



I don't know if it's the same where you are, but in one of the side
effects now beginning to manifest itself here in the UK is the
increasingly growing numbers of ancient churches having the lead
stripped off their roofs and even railways and electricity substations
are also being targeted and literally put out of action because of
copper cable and fittings being stolen. Apparently there is now such a
famine of raw materials in China that scrap metal is becoming a very
big and lucrative business.



L.



Some areas a few miles from me have had copper stolen from homes
(plumbing, etc) being built, siding stolen off the homes being built
"and" lived in. Theives went to places where stockpiles were kept - too
some of it. Some were even stealing the bronze flower vases off of
Cemetary markers. Was it for "China" - I don't know - but doubt it.
Probably more like "drugs". Some idiot tried his luck here ripping out
plumbing from a home of a "vacationer" - and let the water run - doing
about $10,000 worth of damage. He was busted in a week. Our cops caught
him as he was making last minute reservations to go to Florida. That was
his first and last stint - here in town.

L.
My 85 year old mother had lead flashing stolen off her house during the
day whilst she was in, a few weeks ago. The 1000 year old Saxon church in
my village also had a large quantity of lead stolen from one of the roofs
which form a more modern part of it. Apparently, road signs are also
being stolen all over the country, and are now being replaced with glass
fibre composite ones, which actually have a sticker on the back which
says "NO SCRAP VALUE". Sad what the world is coming to ...

Arfa


Not to mince words with you Arfa - but I think DISGUSTING is a better
term.

L.

Well yes, you're probably right. As far as cops go, from what I've seen of
U.S. police (and actually *most* officials over there), they leave ours for
dead. The system of police officer / sheriff / state trooper is far superior
to ours. Not so many years back, I would have said that our police force in
the UK could stand with the world's finest, but as an organisation now, they
are rapidly becoming a joke. This is being further added to by them
replacing genuine officers with "PCSOs" - that's Police Community Support
Officers. These guys (and girls) look for all the world *like* a police
officer, but only have the powers to observe and report. U.S. police look
the part. Their uniforms are smart, and from what I've seen around the
states, always worn with a sense of pride and duty, as are those by customs
and immigration officials at airports. Ours, on the other hand, now have a
sort of 'scruffy' and dishevelled look about them. If you call 999 (our
911), you will get put straight through to the service you need, but with
the police, you may not get an immediate response. Whereas all calls used to
be taken and assessed by a police officer, if you were calling the police,
you are likely now to get a civilian operator, who makes the decision how
quickly to respond. Many even large police stations are now closed at night,
so if you are reporting a proper crime, you may not get someone round before
the next morning, or even afternoon.

On the other hand, if someone reported you making a racist or homophobic
comment in public, you are likely to find yourself dragged off to a police
cell within 5 minutes. It is now also very easy to end up with a criminal
record for motoring offences such as speeding, and even doing your garbage
recycling incorrectly, in some towns. I kid you not. Policing here now is
all about meeting clear-up targets, and it's easier to do this with 'soft'
offences committed by otherwise law-abiding good citizens, who still have a
fear and respect for the police, and will roll over and allow themselves to
be swept along by the system. Junkies, feral gangs, and career criminals
are, on the other hand, laughing their heads off, and doing degrees in human
rights law. I hope that the U.S. doesn't finish up going the same way, but
sadly, I think it is inevitable.

All of which is a jolly long way from odd transformer problems !

Arfa

"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...

My 85 year old mother had lead flashing stolen off her house during the
day
whilst she was in, a few weeks ago. The 1000 year old Saxon church in my
village also had a large quantity of lead stolen from one of the roofs
which form a more modern part of it. Apparently, road signs are also being
stolen all over the country, and are now being replaced with glass fibre
composite ones, which actually have a sticker on the back which says "NO
SCRAP VALUE". Sad what the world is coming to ...


Wasn't it Mahatma Gandhi who said "There's enough in the world for every
man's need, but not enough for every man's greed," how prophetic that's now
turning out to be!


Arfa

Ivan wrote:
Homer rang the local police station, an
answerphone cut in and said something to the effect of "The Springfield
police station is now closed., if you are reporting a felony press one,
If you're reporting a".. As far as our local police station is concerned
it sounded about right to me!

Erm.. that`s Morecambe police station that is! Closes at 9pm


UkuleleRon

On Aug 22, 3:44 am, "Ivan" wrote:
"Arfa Daily" wrote in message

...



whilst she was in, a few weeks ago. The 1000 year old Saxon church in my
village also had a large quantity of lead stolen from one of the roofs
which form a more modern part of it.

That's ridiculous, stealing lead can't be in any way profitable.

Lead is going for about $7 a ton.


Now manhole covers are quite a bit better- Iron is going for $120-
$200 a ton.

Still all it takes is a phone call from the police to scrap dealers to
make them worhless.

"Ancient_Hacker" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Aug 22, 3:44 am, "Ivan" wrote:
"Arfa Daily" wrote in message

...



whilst she was in, a few weeks ago. The 1000 year old Saxon church in
my
village also had a large quantity of lead stolen from one of the roofs
which form a more modern part of it.

That's ridiculous, stealing lead can't be in any way profitable.

Lead is going for about $7 a ton.


Now manhole covers are quite a bit better- Iron is going for $120-
$200 a ton.

Still all it takes is a phone call from the police to scrap dealers to
make them worhless.


Are you sure about that ? If so, I think you should buy up all you can, ship
it over here, and resell it. According to this site

http://www.letsrecycle.com/prices/metalsPrices.jsp

scrap lead is going for £1050 per ton. That's about $2k at the current
exchange rates ...

Arfa

On Aug 22, 9:19 am, "Arfa Daily" wrote:


scrap lead is going for £1050 per ton. That's about $2k at the current
exchange rates ...

Arfa

Sorry, my mistake. I checked two sites and they agreed on the price
so I assumed they were okay.

"Ancient_Hacker" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Aug 22, 9:19 am, "Arfa Daily" wrote:


scrap lead is going for £1050 per ton. That's about $2k at the current
exchange rates ...

Arfa

Sorry, my mistake. I checked two sites and they agreed on the price
so I assumed they were okay.


Also the beauty of lead to criminals is its weight to size ratio.

"Ancient_Hacker" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Aug 22, 3:44 am, "Ivan" wrote:
"Arfa Daily" wrote in message

...



whilst she was in, a few weeks ago. The 1000 year old Saxon church in
my
village also had a large quantity of lead stolen from one of the roofs
which form a more modern part of it.

That's ridiculous, stealing lead can't be in any way profitable.

Lead is going for about $7 a ton.


Now manhole covers are quite a bit better- Iron is going for $120-
$200 a ton.

Still all it takes is a phone call from the police to scrap dealers to
make them worhless.


No one said "Criminals" are "smart"! Maybe they didn't know what type of
metal it was - they were stealing! Some take anything if they think they can
squeeze a buck out of it.

"Radiosrfun" wrote in message
...
"Ancient_Hacker" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Aug 22, 3:44 am, "Ivan" wrote:
"Arfa Daily" wrote in message

...



whilst she was in, a few weeks ago. The 1000 year old Saxon church in
my
village also had a large quantity of lead stolen from one of the roofs
which form a more modern part of it.

That's ridiculous, stealing lead can't be in any way profitable.

Lead is going for about $7 a ton.


Now manhole covers are quite a bit better- Iron is going for $120-
$200 a ton.

Still all it takes is a phone call from the police to scrap dealers to
make them worhless.


No one said "Criminals" are "smart"! Maybe they didn't know what type of
metal it was - they were stealing! Some take anything if they think they
can squeeze a buck out of it.


Lead theft is a real big problem in the UK right now, and there has been a
big increase in incidence of it in and around the town I live near. As Ivan
says, it has a good size to weight ratio. At a grand UKP a ton, a hundred
pounds of the stuff, which is probably just about what a couple of
crack-heads can carry between them, is worth 50 quid, which would probably
keep the pair of them smashed for the rest of the day.

As far as the police giving the scrap dealers a call, they probably haven't
got the budget for phone calls like that, after shelling out on all the new
speed cameras, buying the new paramilitary uniforms, and financing all the
nonsense soft-crime squads that we now have. Plus it would take someone with
a bit of noddle to work out this astoundingly clever plan ... d;~]

Arfa