SNIP
...
The phase and neutral pins on modern plugs have insulated bases to prevent
finger contact with pins and also to stop metal sheets (for example,
fallen
blind slats) from becoming live if lodged between the wall and a partly
pulled out plug. A downside to this prong insulation is that it may
contribute to damaged sockets not making good contact with the prongs,
which
may even melt the latter. No such problems exist with healthy sockets.
...

as an aside someone told me that per million houses there are more house
fires in the USA due to wiring faults than any other country, partly due
to
a lot of timber construction and partly due to the higher current for a
given KW of power transfered - is that the case?


Have you seen the way they connect their wires? They just twist them
together and put a plastic cap over the bare wires!
Multiply that by double current and it's no wonder they have fires

"TT_Man" wrote in message
...
SNIP
...
The phase and neutral pins on modern plugs have insulated bases to
prevent
finger contact with pins and also to stop metal sheets (for example,
fallen
blind slats) from becoming live if lodged between the wall and a partly
pulled out plug. A downside to this prong insulation is that it may
contribute to damaged sockets not making good contact with the prongs,
which
may even melt the latter. No such problems exist with healthy sockets.
...

as an aside someone told me that per million houses there are more house
fires in the USA due to wiring faults than any other country, partly due
to
a lot of timber construction and partly due to the higher current for a
given KW of power transfered - is that the case?


Have you seen the way they connect their wires? They just twist them
together and put a plastic cap over the bare wires!

They are called wire nuts, and contain a threaded metal insert. Sort of an
inverse of a self tapping screw. I understand the hesitance, but they don't
seem to be a problem

Tam

Multiply that by double current and it's no wonder they have fires

Tam/WB2TT wrote:
someone wrote

Have you seen the way they connect their wires? They just twist them
together and put a plastic cap over the bare wires!

They are called wire nuts, and contain a threaded metal insert. Sort of an
inverse of a self tapping screw. I understand the hesitance, but they don't
seem to be a problem

We used to have a similar thing but made of ceramic, called a scruit
(sp?) (pronounced screw-it) I understand that they may be outlawed these
days.

Ron(UK)

Tam/WB2TT wrote:

"TT_Man" wrote in message


Have you seen the way they connect their wires? They just twist them
together and put a plastic cap over the bare wires!

They are called wire nuts, and contain a threaded metal insert. Sort of an
inverse of a self tapping screw. I understand the hesitance, but they don't
seem to be a problem

I fixed a Weller TCP iron a couple of weeks back that was running cold. A 'wire
nut' inside was loose and a connection to the element had become iffy.

Graham

On 27 jun, 22:56, "TT_Man" wrote:
Have you seen the way they connect their wires? They just twist them
together and put a plastic cap over the bare wires!
Multiply that by double current and it's no wonder they have fires -

Sounds dodgy!

I've spent time in the US and Japan, and I have to say that those flat
blade sockets are an atrocious design. They suffer sloppy fit problems
very easily . Those countries don't seem to have switched wall sockets
either, which the Uk standard has, so you get more arcing if plugging
in live equipment (which degrades the contacts even further).
The UK plugs are more complex, and expensive, but a damn sight safer
and a lot more sturdy and resist wear better -only ever had to
replace one or two fittings over the years.

I suppose all this is because it is a more recent standard - like the
German PAL TV system - which, since it was introduced later, had the
edge.
-B.

"b" wrote in message
ps.com...
On 27 jun, 22:56, "TT_Man" wrote:
Have you seen the way they connect their wires? They just twist them
together and put a plastic cap over the bare wires!
Multiply that by double current and it's no wonder they have fires -

Sounds dodgy!

I've spent time in the US and Japan, and I have to say that those flat
blade sockets are an atrocious design. They suffer sloppy fit problems
very easily . Those countries don't seem to have switched wall sockets
either, which the Uk standard has, so you get more arcing if plugging
in live equipment (which degrades the contacts even further).
The UK plugs are more complex, and expensive, but a damn sight safer
and a lot more sturdy and resist wear better -only ever had to
replace one or two fittings over the years.

I suppose all this is because it is a more recent standard - like the
German PAL TV system - which, since it was introduced later, had the
edge.
-B.



Done correctly, a quality wire nut is a very secure and long lasting
connection. It's not simply a plastic cap, but a plastic casing over a
threaded springy metal insert which grips the wires very well. I have some
UK terminal blocks, and the problem with them is that there's no mechanical
bond between the wires, the contact point is small, and they can and do work
loose or corrode over time. They generally are ok, but neither method is
greatly superior to the other.

The double current isn't really much of an issue, our large loads are 240V
too, it's handy to have both voltages readily available.

You can get quality US style receptacles, problem is they're expensive so
few houses come with them. I like many things about the UK plugs, but the
thing I don't like is they're *huge* so things like power strips and
multi-gang outlets are really cumbersome.

Having discussed this in length with a friend in the UK, we've both come to
the conclusion that both systems have many advantages and disadvantages and
neither one is a clear winner.

James Sweet wrote in message
news:9hGgi.5824$bj5.164@trndny07...

"b" wrote in message
ps.com...
On 27 jun, 22:56, "TT_Man" wrote:
Have you seen the way they connect their wires? They just twist them
together and put a plastic cap over the bare wires!
Multiply that by double current and it's no wonder they have fires -

Sounds dodgy!

I've spent time in the US and Japan, and I have to say that those flat
blade sockets are an atrocious design. They suffer sloppy fit problems
very easily . Those countries don't seem to have switched wall sockets
either, which the Uk standard has, so you get more arcing if plugging
in live equipment (which degrades the contacts even further).
The UK plugs are more complex, and expensive, but a damn sight safer
and a lot more sturdy and resist wear better -only ever had to
replace one or two fittings over the years.

I suppose all this is because it is a more recent standard - like the
German PAL TV system - which, since it was introduced later, had the
edge.
-B.



Done correctly, a quality wire nut is a very secure and long lasting
connection. It's not simply a plastic cap, but a plastic casing over a
threaded springy metal insert which grips the wires very well. I have some
UK terminal blocks, and the problem with them is that there's no
mechanical
bond between the wires, the contact point is small, and they can and do
work
loose or corrode over time. They generally are ok, but neither method is
greatly superior to the other.

The double current isn't really much of an issue, our large loads are 240V
too, it's handy to have both voltages readily available.

You can get quality US style receptacles, problem is they're expensive so
few houses come with them. I like many things about the UK plugs, but the
thing I don't like is they're *huge* so things like power strips and
multi-gang outlets are really cumbersome.

Having discussed this in length with a friend in the UK, we've both come
to
the conclusion that both systems have many advantages and disadvantages
and
neither one is a clear winner.



Could someone direct me to pics of the 2 different types of plug/socket
system used in the USA to differentiate for medium and high power use, I
didn't even realise 220 or 240V was used residentially anywhere in the USA.

N Cook wrote:
Could someone direct me to pics of the 2 different types of plug/socket
system used in the USA to differentiate for medium and high power use, I
didn't even realise 220 or 240V was used residentially anywhere in the USA.

There are several kinds depending upon the current rating and if 120
volts is used too. Before 1996, the ground pin was also used for neutral
for things like clothes dryers that had a 120 volt motors and timers and
240 volt heaters. I think that practice was stopped in the late 1970's.

In 1996, it became illegal. If your device has a mixture of 120 and 240
volt components, you need to have a four wire plug. I left the U.S. in
1996, so I've never seen them.

The simplest kind is used for air conditioners and is similar to a 120
volt grounded plug, with two flat blades and a rounded ground pin below
them in the middle. The difference is that the flat blades are the same
size and are horizontal instead of vertical.

I remember walking into an electronics store in SoHo (in Lyle Street?)
around 1983 and talking to the owner for a while. We got on to discussing
the differences in power cords and he showed me the 240 volt cords
they sent to the U.S. He was surprised that I was familar with them.

He also showed me a catalog from a U.S. company called Herbach and Rademan
that sold surplus electronics. He imported items from them. It was
my turn to be surprised, I lived less than 2 miles from them and was
a frequent customer. :-)

By 1989, the store was gone, it had become a Chinese grocery. In 2001 I
was given a stack of U.K. radio magazines and an article about the
store was in one of them. It was written by the nephew of the man
I spoke to. Unfortunatley he had no pictures of the store near the
end, and although I took many photographs of London that trip, I
never thought to take one of the store or his uncle. :-(


Geoff.
--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel N3OWJ/4X1GM
IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838
Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/

["Followup-To:" header set to sci.electronics.design.]
Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:

There are several kinds depending upon the current rating and if 120
volts is used too. Before 1996, the ground pin was also used for neutral
for things like clothes dryers that had a 120 volt motors and timers and
240 volt heaters. I think that practice was stopped in the late 1970's.

In 1996, it became illegal. If your device has a mixture of 120 and 240
volt components, you need to have a four wire plug. I left the U.S. in
1996, so I've never seen them.

Just to add more aspects to this discussion. In Germany, practically all
houses have 400V three-phase electricity, which is three 230V phases 120°
degrees apart. So all the normal 230V outlets are just a single phase out of
those three plus neutral.

Big appliances in a fixed location like electric ovens and water heaters get
all three phases but are not required to use them in balance.

The nice thing about this is that if you want to set up a workshop in your
house, all you need is some extra fuses and cable and a couple those nice
big, red CEKON sockets.

robert

"N Cook" wrote in message
...
James Sweet wrote in message
news:9hGgi.5824$bj5.164@trndny07...

"b" wrote in message
ps.com...
On 27 jun, 22:56, "TT_Man" wrote:

Could someone direct me to pics of the 2 different types of plug/socket
system used in the USA to differentiate for medium and high power use, I
didn't even realise 220 or 240V was used residentially anywhere in the
USA.


Electric clothes dryer, stoves/ovens, and permanently installed air
conditioners are only available in 240 V versions. Also, larger sizes of
electric space heaters. The first three are probably more likely to be wired
in directly to a junction box than to use a plug/socket. There are several
incompatible types of 240 V plugs. All are huge, bigger than the UK plug,
and expensive.
Tam

Tam/WB2TT wrote:

"N Cook" wrote
James Sweet wrote
"b" wrote
"TT_Man" wrote:

Could someone direct me to pics of the 2 different types of plug/socket
system used in the USA to differentiate for medium and high power use, I
didn't even realise 220 or 240V was used residentially anywhere in the
USA.


Electric clothes dryer, stoves/ovens, and permanently installed air
conditioners are only available in 240 V versions. Also, larger sizes of
electric space heaters. The first three are probably more likely to be wired
in directly to a junction box than to use a plug/socket. There are several
incompatible types of 240 V plugs. All are huge, bigger than the UK plug,
and expensive.

Considering that the UK plug is good for 3kW, it's not really that large.

Graham

On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 07:45:50 +0100, N Cook wrote:

Could someone direct me to pics of the 2 different types of plug/socket
system used in the USA to differentiate for medium and high power use, I
didn't even realise 220 or 240V was used residentially anywhere in the USA.

http://www.voltec-industries.com/nema_chart.html
https://www.hubbellnet.com/max_htm/t...EMA/front.html
http://nooutage.com/nema_configurations.htm

Hope This Helps!
Rich

Rich Grise writes:
http://www.voltec-industries.com/nema_chart.html
https://www.hubbellnet.com/max_htm/t...EMA/front.html
http://nooutage.com/nema_configurations.htm

Here's the one I use:
http://www.quail.com/nema.cfm

But yeah, TWO types of outlets? Come on, my house has way more than
just TWO types. Heck, I have at least two types of just 120v outlets.
I think I have four types of 240v outlets.

DJ Delorie wrote:

Rich Grise writes:
http://www.voltec-industries.com/nema_chart.html
https://www.hubbellnet.com/max_htm/t...EMA/front.html
http://nooutage.com/nema_configurations.htm

Here's the one I use:
http://www.quail.com/nema.cfm

But yeah, TWO types of outlets? Come on, my house has way more than
just TWO types. Heck, I have at least two types of just 120v outlets.

Why would you need more than one type ?

Graham

Rich Grise wrote in message
news
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 07:45:50 +0100, N Cook wrote:

Could someone direct me to pics of the 2 different types of plug/socket
system used in the USA to differentiate for medium and high power use, I
didn't even realise 220 or 240V was used residentially anywhere in the
USA.

http://www.voltec-industries.com/nema_chart.html
https://www.hubbellnet.com/max_htm/t...EMA/front.html
http://nooutage.com/nema_configurations.htm

Hope This Helps!
Rich


Helps ?
It must be easier learning Japanese than learning to differentiate all that
lot and then ominously on top of that sections marked "Reserved for Future
Configurations"
Is it subsets of that lot for each state or each utility company or a total
mish-mash ?

--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/

"N Cook" wrote in
:

Helps ?
It must be easier learning Japanese than learning to differentiate all
that lot and then ominously on top of that sections marked "Reserved
for Future Configurations"
Is it subsets of that lot for each state or each utility company or a
total mish-mash ?

They are named with a spec code that electricians learn, which is pretty
simple (first digit pertains to the voltage/terminals, the second
amperage).

Not like BS and CEE numbers which directly mean nothing, although I think
one could boil those 30 down to about 5.

"N Cook" wrote in message
...
Rich Grise wrote in message
news
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 07:45:50 +0100, N Cook wrote:

Could someone direct me to pics of the 2 different types of plug/socket
system used in the USA to differentiate for medium and high power use,
I
didn't even realise 220 or 240V was used residentially anywhere in the
USA.

http://www.voltec-industries.com/nema_chart.html
https://www.hubbellnet.com/max_htm/t...EMA/front.html
http://nooutage.com/nema_configurations.htm

Hope This Helps!
Rich


Helps ?
It must be easier learning Japanese than learning to differentiate all
that
lot and then ominously on top of that sections marked "Reserved for Future
Configurations"
Is it subsets of that lot for each state or each utility company or a
total
mish-mash ?



There's about 3 different types of receptacles you'll find in a US
residence, the rest on that list are either industrial stuff or obsolete
things you might find in the occasional 1950s or earlier house. Generally
you'll find mostly 15A 120V grounded types, then the clothes dryer will have
a 30A 240V receptacle and the kitchen stove will have a 50A 240V receptacle.
Other high powered items like an electric furnace, water heater, spa, etc
will be hard wired. Sometimes you'll find a 15 or 20A 240V receptacle in the
garage for something like an air compressor or small arc welder but these
are generally added by the homeowner. It's really not very complicated.

I know the UK has a number of plugs and receptacles in the same category,
I've got a small pile of various oddballs from over there right here.

"N Cook" wrote in
:

Could someone direct me to pics of the 2 different types of
plug/socket system used in the USA to differentiate for medium and
high power use, I didn't even realise 220 or 240V was used
residentially anywhere in the USA.



http://nooutage.com/nema_configurations.htm

Some are used only in industrial and commercial situations though.

Not shown is the NEMA 10-xx configuration, which is used for the
aformentioned 120/240V appliances that use a neutral for chassis grounding
and as a return for internal 120V loads. They basically have angled hot
prongs with a straight or L shaped neutral prong (appropriately sized for
the load). FWIW, the NEMA 10-15 plug is exactly the same as a typical
Australian plug, less safety features.

On 28 jun, 05:53, "James Sweet" wrote:
"b" wrote in message

ps.com...





On 27 jun, 22:56, "TT_Man" wrote:
Have you seen the way they connect their wires? They just twist them
together and put a plastic cap over the bare wires!
Multiply that by double current and it's no wonder they have fires -

Sounds dodgy!

I've spent time in the US and Japan, and I have to say that those flat
blade sockets are an atrocious design. They suffer sloppy fit problems
very easily . Those countries don't seem to have switched wall sockets
either, which the Uk standard has, so you get more arcing if plugging
in live equipment (which degrades the contacts even further).
The UK plugs are more complex, and expensive, but a damn sight safer
and a lot more sturdy and resist wear better -only ever had to
replace one or two fittings over the years.

I suppose all this is because it is a more recent standard - like the
German PAL TV system - which, since it was introduced later, had the
edge.
-B.

Done correctly, a quality wire nut is a very secure and long lasting
connection. It's not simply a plastic cap, but a plastic casing over a
threaded springy metal insert which grips the wires very well. I have some
UK terminal blocks, and the problem with them is that there's no mechanical
bond between the wires, the contact point is small, and they can and do work
loose or corrode over time. They generally are ok, but neither method is
greatly superior to the other.

The double current isn't really much of an issue, our large loads are 240V
too, it's handy to have both voltages readily available.

You can get quality US style receptacles, problem is they're expensive so
few houses come with them. I like many things about the UK plugs, but the
thing I don't like is they're *huge* so things like power strips and
multi-gang outlets are really cumbersome.

Having discussed this in length with a friend in the UK, we've both come to
the conclusion that both systems have many advantages and disadvantages and
neither one is a clear winner.- Ocultar texto de la cita -

- Mostrar texto de la cita -

Leaving aside the joining wires/terminal blocks issue, on the subject
of the plugs and sockets, the UK one to me is superior in many ways.
1. fused plugs.
2. cord grip in plugs
3. screw terminals in plugs -no wrapping wires.
4. ALL receptacles and plugs have earth pin.
5. 3 prong design means a better fit (they don't waggle about at all)
6. much thicker pins - handle more current, do not bend, and seem to
resist arcing damage better.
7. switched sockets
......etc.

The US /japan one only has the advantage of compact size, personally I
can live with a bigger plug if it means better performance. I couldn't
care less about cosmetic aspects!

just my tuppence' worth. -B.

b wrote:
Leaving aside the joining wires/terminal blocks issue, on the subject
of the plugs and sockets, the UK one to me is superior in many ways.
1. fused plugs.

Ok, I'll conceed that one, but only 50%, after all, how many people
put a 16amp fuse on a .5mm cord?

2. cord grip in plugs

You can get them in the U.S. I occasionaly use them here for 120
volt equipment (I brought a few items with me) and had a friend
bring me some LEVITON (high quality plugs) from the U.S. They
ave execelent grips on them.

3. screw terminals in plugs -no wrapping wires.

The Leviton plugs have them too. I'm not sure they are an advantage,
the gripping area is the area of the screw shaft,not the circumfrence
times the area of the wire surface, a lot smaller.

4. ALL receptacles and plugs have earth pin.

Cut me a break. Since around 1960 all of the outlets in the U.S. have
grounds. In the U.K. you can buy appliances with 2 condoctor cords
with two plug pins that can usually be forced into U.K. outlets.
They are supposed to be for export to the E.U. but they are sold.

Many of the appliances sold here come that way too, but I must be
the only person who cuts them off and puts three pin plugs with large
grips on them. I also write the name of the appliance on its plug.

It does not make an difference electricaly, the appliances come with
two conductor cords and I don't replace them.

5. 3 prong design means a better fit (they don't waggle about at all)

See above.

6. much thicker pins - handle more current, do not bend, and seem to
resist arcing damage better.

That's a big problem here. Many appliances use 15-16 amps (at 230 volts)
and come with the smaller round plugs which are rated at 16 amps, but
not for continuous duty. When we moved into this appartment, all of the
outlets had burnt "hot" pins because the previous tenants plugged
high current heaters into them.

I replaced the outlet for our oven with an airconditioner plug, which
except for the round pins looks like a U.K. plug. It's no longer
used we replaced it with a gas oven.

7. switched sockets

Maybe. only good if they are not at floor level.

One advantage we have here in Israel is that all new construction
requires a GFI on all outlets. Usually it's BEFORE the main
circuit breaker.


.....etc.

The US /japan one only has the advantage of compact size, personally I
can live with a bigger plug if it means better performance. I couldn't
care less about cosmetic aspects!

As someone said earlier, it depends upon how much you pay. If you
buy cheap junk, you get cheap junk. :-)

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel N3OWJ/4X1GM
IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838
Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/

In article ,
Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
b wrote:
Leaving aside the joining wires/terminal blocks issue, on the subject
of the plugs and sockets, the UK one to me is superior in many ways.
1. fused plugs.

Ok, I'll conceed that one, but only 50%, after all, how many people
put a 16amp fuse on a .5mm cord?

13 amp is the largest plug top fuse. And all flex these days is such that
it will blow a 13 amp fuse in event of a short - to allow for the fact
that householders won't use the correct fuse.

2. cord grip in plugs

You can get them in the U.S. I occasionaly use them here for 120
volt equipment (I brought a few items with me) and had a friend
bring me some LEVITON (high quality plugs) from the U.S. They
ave execelent grips on them.

You've no choice in the UK - all plugs must conform to the BS standard.
One without a cord grip wouldn't.

3. screw terminals in plugs -no wrapping wires.

The Leviton plugs have them too. I'm not sure they are an advantage,
the gripping area is the area of the screw shaft,not the circumfrence
times the area of the wire surface, a lot smaller.

4. ALL receptacles and plugs have earth pin.

Cut me a break. Since around 1960 all of the outlets in the U.S. have
grounds. In the U.K. you can buy appliances with 2 condoctor cords
with two plug pins that can usually be forced into U.K. outlets.
They are supposed to be for export to the E.U. but they are sold.

No you can't - legally. With the exception of shavers or toothbrushes etc
designed to fit a transformer isolated bathroom outlet, everything must be
fitted with a '13 amp' plug with a suitable fuse.

Many of the appliances sold here come that way too, but I must be
the only person who cuts them off and puts three pin plugs with large
grips on them. I also write the name of the appliance on its plug.

It does not make an difference electricaly, the appliances come with
two conductor cords and I don't replace them.

5. 3 prong design means a better fit (they don't waggle about at all)

See above.

6. much thicker pins - handle more current, do not bend, and seem to
resist arcing damage better.

That's a big problem here. Many appliances use 15-16 amps (at 230 volts)
and come with the smaller round plugs which are rated at 16 amps, but
not for continuous duty. When we moved into this appartment, all of the
outlets had burnt "hot" pins because the previous tenants plugged
high current heaters into them.

I replaced the outlet for our oven with an airconditioner plug, which
except for the round pins looks like a U.K. plug. It's no longer
used we replaced it with a gas oven.

7. switched sockets

Maybe. only good if they are not at floor level.

Well if you reach down to plug/unplug you can operate a switch at the same
time. Most do as it's sort of bred into them through habit - most outlets
have always been switched in the UK.

One advantage we have here in Israel is that all new construction
requires a GFI on all outlets. Usually it's BEFORE the main
circuit breaker.

The usual modern way here is to have a split load consumer unit. One set
of MCBs protected by an RCD and one set not. The non protected used for
fixed loads like cookers and water heaters where slight leakage might
cause an RCD to trip. But we seem to be moving to one RCBO (RCD and MCB
combined) per circuit.


.....etc.

The US /japan one only has the advantage of compact size, personally I
can live with a bigger plug if it means better performance. I couldn't
care less about cosmetic aspects!

As someone said earlier, it depends upon how much you pay. If you
buy cheap junk, you get cheap junk. :-)

In general it's not possible to buy poor quality plugs and sockets in the
UK.

This is one example of the bottom end price wise, but will give good
service for years.

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/AA213SS.html

Of course you can pay several times that much for chrome etc finish
accessories.

--
*Growing old is inevitable, growing up is optional

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in
:

Cut me a break. Since around 1960 all of the outlets in the U.S. have
grounds. In the U.K. you can buy appliances with 2 condoctor cords
with two plug pins that can usually be forced into U.K. outlets.
They are supposed to be for export to the E.U. but they are sold.

No you can't - legally. With the exception of shavers or toothbrushes
etc designed to fit a transformer isolated bathroom outlet, everything
must be fitted with a '13 amp' plug with a suitable fuse.

The appliances have a two prong cord, but a 13A plug with a dummy ground
pin (to open the shutters in the receptical). With the exception of those
that are inteded to be plugged into the batheroom shaver outlet, and those
sold in the black/grey market

On 28 Jun, 13:59, (Geoffrey S. Mendelson) wrote:
b wrote:

1. fused plugs.

Ok, I'll conceed that one, but only 50%, after all, how many people
put a 16amp fuse on a .5mm cord?

There are 2 main advantages to fused plugs.

1. When an appliance has its own fuse, a faulty appliance disables
itself. With unfused plugs that most countries use, someone can and
likely will plug the faulty appliance into another socket at some
point, and be exposed to the danger again, possibly several times as
it changes hands.

2. The fuse only need be rated to supply the appliance, so most
protective fuses will thus be of much lower current rating (typ 3A)
than they would be on unfused plug circuits. This improves
discrimination greatly, helping to ensure more faults are cleared
quickly and safely.


2. cord grip in plugs

You can get them in the U.S. I occasionaly use them here for 120
volt equipment (I brought a few items with me) and had a friend
bring me some LEVITON (high quality plugs) from the U.S. They
ave execelent grips on them.

Many plugs not having them means lots of damaged and failed
connections due to repeated movement and strain. Sale of gripless
plugs has been illegal here since the early 70s.

I used to use gripless plugs years ago, and all the bad connections,
wires coming out and most-strand-broken conductors that happened then
are rarely seen with today's gripped plugs.


3. screw terminals in plugs -no wrapping wires.

The Leviton plugs have them too. I'm not sure they are an advantage,
the gripping area is the area of the screw shaft,not the circumfrence
times the area of the wire surface, a lot smaller.

What happens is the copper flex deforms to fit the connector and
screw. Having used both modern connectors and old wraparounds, the
modern one is much more reliable. The greater contact area of
wraparounds is of no benefit in practice, screws provide more than
enough contact area.


4. ALL receptacles and plugs have earth pin.

Cut me a break. Since around 1960 all of the outlets in the U.S. have
grounds.

I'd agree with you there, and hope 2 pin UK plugs become permitted one
day, probably only premoulded ones on appliances to stop their misuse.

However when 2 pin rewirable plugs are sold it is inevitable some will
be misused on 3 core leads.


In the U.K. you can buy appliances with 2 condoctor cords
with two plug pins

not legal here.


that can usually be forced into U.K. outlets.
They are supposed to be for export to the E.U. but they are sold.

The only time EU 2 pin plugs are sold on appliances is when a UK
adaptor is permanently attached to the 2 pin plug, bringing it up to
UK standards. These are seen now and then on imported goods that were
orignally intended for the (non-UK) european market.

Also there are 2 very similar types of 2 pin plug which sometimes
causes confusion. The modern EU ones cant fit a UK socket, the pins
are too fat and too closely spaced. Forcing doesnt work. There are
also historic French plugs that look similar and do fit our sockets
with a bit of fiddling, but very rarely does one see one of those used
over here. They have 4mm pins. I dont think I've seen one in over 20
years.


5. 3 prong design means a better fit (they don't waggle about at all)

See above.

waggly sockets are unheard of here, but common in US.


7. switched sockets

Maybe. only good if they are not at floor level.

Means goods are switched safely rather than by pulling the lead out,
which damages socket contacts by arcing, leading to overheating and
fire.
Also means many appliances and cords arent left live when not in use.
Most UK sockets are switched, though not all.

We have a bit of an issue with socket positions here. The great
majority of sockets are low down, and this doesn't stop the switches
being used. However new builds now require them high up for dubious PC
reasons, transforming trailing leads into trip hazards, which I think
will only cause more injuries and electrical faults.


As someone said earlier, it depends upon how much you pay. If you
buy cheap junk, you get cheap junk. :-)

....which naturally dominates a price-led market. A political issue
AIUI.

Here our cheapest stuff has 3 solid pins, half insulated pins,
cordgrips, shutters, screw connections on plugs and all sockets, and
is normally solid reliable equipment.

It seems to be political why the US doesn't want to stop the sale of
unsafe accessories and the deaths that result.


NT

On 28 jun, 23:20, wrote:

Here our cheapest stuff has 3 solid pins, half insulated pins,
cordgrips, shutters, screw connections on plugs and all sockets, and
is normally solid reliable equipment.

It seems to be political why the US doesn't want to stop the sale of
unsafe accessories and the deaths that result.

NT

a clear example of what market forces dictate in fact NOT being for
the general good.

laissez-faire capitalism - what do you expect! ;-)

-b.

On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 14:20:45 -0700, meow2222 wrote:

It seems to be political why the US doesn't want to stop the sale of
unsafe accessories and the deaths that result.


Yes. Entirely political. We are the Land of the Free. If people want to
electrocute themselves, they have that right. Most of us in America are
grownups, who know better, and so don't need nanny queen to wipe our ass
for us.

Thanks,
Rich

wrote:

We have a bit of an issue with socket positions here. The great
majority of sockets are low down, and this doesn't stop the switches
being used. However new builds now require them high up for dubious PC
reasons, transforming trailing leads into trip hazards, which I think
will only cause more injuries and electrical faults.

Required ?

Since when was this . As you say, it seems to be a daft idea.

Graham

wrote:
Also there are 2 very similar types of 2 pin plug which sometimes
causes confusion. The modern EU ones cant fit a UK socket, the pins
are too fat and too closely spaced. Forcing doesnt work. There are
also historic French plugs that look similar and do fit our sockets
with a bit of fiddling, but very rarely does one see one of those used
over here. They have 4mm pins. I dont think I've seen one in over 20
years.

The current EU standard is a 2 pin plug that looks like the one you have
not seen in 20 years. The grounded version is the same with a third
pin of the same diameter, but slightly longer between them but below.

The two "fat" round pins, were only used in some parts of Europe and
does not fit in the U.K. outlets.

According to an answer to a previous post, modern U.K. outlets have
shutters which are opened by inserting the ground pin. This is to
prevent the two round pin plugs going in on their own, albeit with
a little force.

I know the adaptors of which you spoke, I have several. They take a
two pin "euro" plug and clamp onto them. They have to be installed
with a screwdriver, so they are not for casual useage and won't
fall out halfway when pulled, like the simple two pin U.S. to "euro"
plug adaptors.

I recently bought a rice cooker made in the U.S. for export. It had
sat unused for years. It was 220 volt, but had a U.S. plug with one
of those simple adaptors on it. Since I consider the chance of it
staying together while I unplugged it near zero, as soon as I tested
it to make sure it worked, off came the plug and a three pin "euro"
plug went on it. The third pin is of no real use, the cord is only
two wire.

However, I've seen enough of them to know that I am in the very
small minority. Most people just use the adaptors and be done with
it. I assume the smarter but less handy ones tape them together.

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel N3OWJ/4X1GM
IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838
Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/

"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" wrote:

b wrote:
Leaving aside the joining wires/terminal blocks issue, on the subject
of the plugs and sockets, the UK one to me is superior in many ways.
1. fused plugs.

Ok, I'll conceed that one, but only 50%, after all, how many people
put a 16amp fuse on a .5mm cord?

No-one these days. A lamp for example will come with a plug already fitted and
probably a 3 or 5 amp fuse in the plug.

Graham

"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" wrote:

In the U.K. you can buy appliances with 2 condoctor cords
with two plug pins that can usually be forced into U.K. outlets.
They are supposed to be for export to the E.U. but they are sold.

You can only force them into UK sockets with the aid of a large screwdriver down
the earth to open up the shutters. You're not supposed to do that.

The neat answer if you want to continue to be able to use them abroad is to use
one of these.

http://i17.ebayimg.com/04/i/07/20/fb/ag_1_b.JPG
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/EURO-CONVERTOR...ayphotohosting

Graham

(Geoffrey S. Mendelson) wrote in
:


Cut me a break. Since around 1960 all of the outlets in the U.S. have
grounds.

In new installations maybe. There are still many hundreds of thousands of
two prong recepticals still installed, or incorectly refitted to three
prong recepticals.

In article ,
says...
(Geoffrey S. Mendelson) wrote in
:


Cut me a break. Since around 1960 all of the outlets in the U.S. have
grounds.

In new installations maybe. There are still many hundreds of thousands of
two prong recepticals still installed, or incorectly refitted to three
prong recepticals.

Two-prong receptacles may be replaced by three-prong as long as there
is a GFCI on the circuit. It's common to replace the first outlet on
the chain with a GFCI outlet. The grounds don't have to be
connected, but according to code it has to be marked as ungrounded.
I agree that many are incorrectly retrofitted (no GFCI).

--
Keith

Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
b wrote:
Leaving aside the joining wires/terminal blocks issue, on the subject
of the plugs and sockets, the UK one to me is superior in many ways.
1. fused plugs.

Ok, I'll conceed that one, but only 50%, after all, how many people
put a 16amp fuse on a .5mm cord?

A lot. Trust me on this.

David Starr

David Starr wrote:

Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
b wrote:
Leaving aside the joining wires/terminal blocks issue, on the subject
of the plugs and sockets, the UK one to me is superior in many ways.
1. fused plugs.

Ok, I'll conceed that one, but only 50%, after all, how many people
put a 16amp fuse on a .5mm cord?

A lot. Trust me on this.

Since a 16A fuse for a UK plug doesn't even exist, I'll take your " Trust me on
this." with a pinch of salt.

Graham

b wrote in
ups.com:
Leaving aside the joining wires/terminal blocks issue, on the subject
of the plugs and sockets, the UK one to me is superior in many ways.
1. fused plugs.
Not really needed, but could be a hazard due to mis-fusing.

FWIW, some lighting (especially holiday lighting) has fused plugs.

2. cord grip in plugs

Good aftermarket or factory moulded plugs have grips.

3. screw terminals in plugs -no wrapping wires.

As I said, good plugs don't have them, and wires can be twisted anti-
clockwise to wrap around screws.

4. ALL receptacles and plugs have earth pin.

That is a plus. As is the shuttered recepticals, the reason for the
earth pin on everything.

5. 3 prong design means a better fit (they don't waggle about at all)

I can't complain there. It is just easier to deal with two prong moulded
plugs, and they don't hold that bad in a decent recepticle.

6. much thicker pins - handle more current, do not bend, and seem to
resist arcing damage better.

In theory they could handle more, but are only limited to 13A by design.
the standard US plug design can do up to 20A.

7. switched sockets

Another plus for the UK (and Aussie) system.
.....etc.

The US /japan one only has the advantage of compact size, personally I
can live with a bigger plug if it means better performance. I couldn't
care less about cosmetic aspects!

just my tuppence' worth. -B.

Gary Tait wrote:

b wrote

Leaving aside the joining wires/terminal blocks issue, on the subject
of the plugs and sockets, the UK one to me is superior in many ways.
1. fused plugs.
Not really needed, but could be a hazard due to mis-fusing.

Hardly any more of a hazard than an unfused plug !

Graham

On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 19:57:19 -0700, b wrote:
On 27 jun, 22:56, "TT_Man" wrote:
Have you seen the way they connect their wires? They just twist them
together and put a plastic cap over the bare wires!
Multiply that by double current and it's no wonder they have fires -
Sounds dodgy!
I've spent time in the US and Japan, and I have to say that those flat
blade sockets are an atrocious design. They suffer sloppy fit problems
very easily . Those countries don't seem to have switched wall sockets
either, which the Uk standard has, so you get more arcing if plugging
in live equipment

In the US, we know better than to do stupid crap like plugging in live
equipment.

Good Luck!
Rich

On 28 Jun, 23:12, Richard The Dreaded Libertarian
wrote:
On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 19:57:19 -0700, b wrote:
On 27 jun, 22:56, "TT_Man" wrote

I've spent time in the US and Japan, and I have to say that those flat
blade sockets are an atrocious design. They suffer sloppy fit problems
very easily . Those countries don't seem to have switched wall sockets
either, which the Uk standard has, so you get more arcing if plugging
in live equipment

In the US, we know better than to do stupid crap like plugging in live
equipment.

Good Luck!
Rich

Are you really saying no-one ever unplugs things withoutout turning
them off first? I really doubt it.


NT

wrote in news:1183330881.790940.287160
@n2g2000hse.googlegroups.com:

Are you really saying no-one ever unplugs things withoutout turning
them off first? I really doubt it.


Some equipment simply has no off switch..

"Gary Tait" wrote in message
...
wrote in news:1183330881.790940.287160
@n2g2000hse.googlegroups.com:

Are you really saying no-one ever unplugs things withoutout turning
them off first? I really doubt it.


Some equipment simply has no off switch..

Who cares? I unplug and plug in items that are turned on all the time, worst
case you get a little spark, it doesn't cause any problems. It's not hot
enough to pit the plug prongs or contacts.

On 2 jul, 03:36, "James Sweet" wrote:

Some equipment simply has no off switch..

Who cares? I unplug and plug in items that are turned on all the time, worst
case you get a little spark, it doesn't cause any problems. It's not hot
enough to pit the plug prongs or contacts.

may not seem so at first, but this will damage the contacts and lead
to the formation of carbonised areas. And more noticeable stateside
what with the limited 'actual' contact area between the US plugs and
sockets - I would avoid plugging in or removing plugs of live
equipment for reliability reasons.

-B