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Internal wiring of USA v UK mains plug
Tam/WB2TT wrote in message
. .. "N Cook" wrote in message ... This is someone's graphic of internal wiring of a UK line connector http://web.onetel.net.uk/~uncletony/...mains-plug.jpg note the screw down, into captive hollows, for the bared leads , also the cord grip and also the internal fuse. This week I had to wire up a USA mains connector like this one http://www.maplin.co.uk/images/Full/hl19v.jpg I could not find an internal pic or graphic but it reminded me of the internal wiring of UK plugs of 50 years ago, before ROSPA and BS got involved - , wrap around screw terminals that can easily shed a loose wire filament, I have never seen a house here in the US wired with stranded wire, except for one built in 1906. Generally #14 solid copper. BTW the 3 wire UK plug reminds me of what is used on a clothes dryer or stove here. Would you actually use one of these on a lamp? Tam both of them, live and neutral surprisingly close together and what I find very odd , no cord grip/anchor and no fuse. We have no choice in the matter, by law, we can use 1,2 or 3 amp fuses inside these plugs but thats the only choice The USA cannot have the equivalent of RoSPA (Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents), AFAICS none of the USA ones have child preventers on them unless the mouldings on the wall outlets preclude that eventuality of small fiongers touching both pins. The other notable difference is the insulated pins that have been necessary refinement, again by law, for 20 years or so You can just see the orange plastic bits extending up the brass pins on the first pic on this wiki and the black bits on the one lower down on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BS_1363 .... The phase and neutral pins on modern plugs have insulated bases to prevent finger contact with pins and also to stop metal sheets (for example, fallen blind slats) from becoming live if lodged between the wall and a partly pulled out plug. A downside to this prong insulation is that it may contribute to damaged sockets not making good contact with the prongs, which may even melt the latter. No such problems exist with healthy sockets. .... as an aside someone told me that per million houses there are more house fires in the USA due to wiring faults than any other country, partly due to a lot of timber construction and partly due to the higher current for a given KW of power transfered - is that the case? |
Internal wiring of USA v UK mains plug
SNIP
... The phase and neutral pins on modern plugs have insulated bases to prevent finger contact with pins and also to stop metal sheets (for example, fallen blind slats) from becoming live if lodged between the wall and a partly pulled out plug. A downside to this prong insulation is that it may contribute to damaged sockets not making good contact with the prongs, which may even melt the latter. No such problems exist with healthy sockets. ... as an aside someone told me that per million houses there are more house fires in the USA due to wiring faults than any other country, partly due to a lot of timber construction and partly due to the higher current for a given KW of power transfered - is that the case? Have you seen the way they connect their wires? They just twist them together and put a plastic cap over the bare wires! Multiply that by double current and it's no wonder they have fires :) |
Internal wiring of USA v UK mains plug
"N Cook" wrote in message ... Tam/WB2TT wrote in message . .. "N Cook" wrote in message ... This is someone's graphic of internal wiring of a UK line connector http://web.onetel.net.uk/~uncletony/...mains-plug.jpg note the screw down, into captive hollows, for the bared leads , also the cord grip and also the internal fuse. This week I had to wire up a USA mains connector like this one http://www.maplin.co.uk/images/Full/hl19v.jpg I could not find an internal pic or graphic but it reminded me of the internal wiring of UK plugs of 50 years ago, before ROSPA and BS got involved - , wrap around screw terminals that can easily shed a loose wire filament, I have never seen a house here in the US wired with stranded wire, except for one built in 1906. Generally #14 solid copper. BTW the 3 wire UK plug reminds me of what is used on a clothes dryer or stove here. Would you actually use one of these on a lamp? Tam both of them, live and neutral surprisingly close together and what I find very odd , no cord grip/anchor and no fuse. We have no choice in the matter, by law, we can use 1,2 or 3 amp fuses inside these plugs but thats the only choice The USA cannot have the equivalent of RoSPA (Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents), AFAICS none of the USA ones have child preventers on them unless the mouldings on the wall outlets preclude that eventuality of small fiongers touching both pins. The other notable difference is the insulated pins that have been necessary refinement, again by law, for 20 years or so You can just see the orange plastic bits extending up the brass pins on the first pic on this wiki and the black bits on the one lower down on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BS_1363 ... The phase and neutral pins on modern plugs have insulated bases to prevent finger contact with pins and also to stop metal sheets (for example, fallen blind slats) from becoming live if lodged between the wall and a partly pulled out plug. A downside to this prong insulation is that it may contribute to damaged sockets not making good contact with the prongs, which may even melt the latter. No such problems exist with healthy sockets. ... as an aside someone told me that per million houses there are more house fires in the USA due to wiring faults than any other country, partly due to a lot of timber construction and partly due to the higher current for a given KW of power transfered - is that the case? All heavy loads are connected across 240 Volts. 120 is basically used for things that can be moved from room to room. There seem to be two main causes for electrical fires in the US. One the improper use of extension cords; for example, a 10 foot length of 5 amp wire with a refrigerator and microwave plugged in at the far end. This comes about because older houses and apartments tend to have an insufficient number of wall outlets. Two, there was some problem with houses built about 30 years ago that uses aluminum wire; these require special connection methods. When a home owner replaces a switch or an outlet with a standard device, you have problems. Most home owners here tend to do their own electrical repairs. I think there is an inherent safety factor in a system where neither side of a 240V circuit is more than 120 V above earth potential. Never heard of a person being electrocuted who was not standing, or otherwise submerged, in water. This costs money. For instance the wiring to an electric clothes dryer will have two 20 Amp hot wires, a 20 Amp neutral wire (from center tap of transformer), and a 20 amp earth ground wire connected to a cold water pipe or ground rod. In some localities, the neutral and ground wires can be tied together at the appliance. I think the only reason for the heavy neutral and ground wires is to make sure the circuit breaker trip in case of a short. As recently as about 20 years ago, a much smaller earth ground wire was used. The electric use meter must be more expensive than an unbalanced single phase one. Tam |
Internal wiring of USA v UK mains plug
"N Cook" wrote in message
... snip as an aside someone told me that per million houses there are more house fires in the USA due to wiring faults than any other country, partly due to a lot of timber construction and partly due to the higher current for a given KW of power transfered - is that the case? A colleague in Maryland said that he'd attended a safety talk from what sounded like the equivalent of a Health and Safety guy, who advised that the best way to reduce the probability of fire in the house was to rewire the kitchen sockets using decent ($3) sockets rather than the $0.25 ones the builders use. Apparently it's something to do with quality of the bits of bent metal that make contact... And he also advised to not unplug appliances if possible, since that wore out the sockets faster. Out of curiosity, I bought a double socket for $0.44 at the local Walmart, and was somewhat dismayed by the apparent lack of robustness. No comparison with our 230V 13A sockets, but maybe that's why they are around $4+ each instead. hth Neil |
Internal wiring of USA v UK mains plug
"TT_Man" wrote in message ... SNIP ... The phase and neutral pins on modern plugs have insulated bases to prevent finger contact with pins and also to stop metal sheets (for example, fallen blind slats) from becoming live if lodged between the wall and a partly pulled out plug. A downside to this prong insulation is that it may contribute to damaged sockets not making good contact with the prongs, which may even melt the latter. No such problems exist with healthy sockets. ... as an aside someone told me that per million houses there are more house fires in the USA due to wiring faults than any other country, partly due to a lot of timber construction and partly due to the higher current for a given KW of power transfered - is that the case? Have you seen the way they connect their wires? They just twist them together and put a plastic cap over the bare wires! They are called wire nuts, and contain a threaded metal insert. Sort of an inverse of a self tapping screw. I understand the hesitance, but they don't seem to be a problem Tam Multiply that by double current and it's no wonder they have fires :) |
Internal wiring of USA v UK mains plug
Tam/WB2TT wrote:
someone wrote Have you seen the way they connect their wires? They just twist them together and put a plastic cap over the bare wires! They are called wire nuts, and contain a threaded metal insert. Sort of an inverse of a self tapping screw. I understand the hesitance, but they don't seem to be a problem We used to have a similar thing but made of ceramic, called a scruit (sp?) (pronounced screw-it) I understand that they may be outlawed these days. Ron(UK) |
Internal wiring of USA v UK mains plug
"Tam/WB2TT" wrote in
: For instance the wiring to an electric clothes dryer will have two 20 Amp hot wires, a 20 Amp neutral wire (from center tap of transformer), and a 20 amp earth ground wire connected to a cold water pipe or ground rod. Actually a typical US clothes dryer uses a 120/240V 30A circuit. And the ground wire always connects back to the services neutral, where things are grounded with rods and/or plumbing. In some localities, the neutral and ground wires can be tied together at the appliance. They way is was, is that it was permitted to run just a grounded conductor (neutral) to the appliance, and bond that to the case. Since 1996 or so, that has been prohibited, so separate neutral and grounding conductors must be supplied to a 120/240V appliance. I think the only reason for the heavy neutral and ground wires is to make sure the circuit breaker trip in case of a short. As recently as about 20 years ago, a much smaller earth ground wire was used. For the safety ground, yes. For neutral it is assumed, to the terminals in the appliance, that the appliance could draw the full current on the neutral. The electric use meter must be more expensive than an unbalanced single phase one. If you mean the US ones, 2-wire 120/240 ones are the norm, so are made in quantity enough not to be expensive. Tam |
Internal wiring of USA v UK mains plug
Tam/WB2TT wrote: "TT_Man" wrote in message Have you seen the way they connect their wires? They just twist them together and put a plastic cap over the bare wires! They are called wire nuts, and contain a threaded metal insert. Sort of an inverse of a self tapping screw. I understand the hesitance, but they don't seem to be a problem I fixed a Weller TCP iron a couple of weeks back that was running cold. A 'wire nut' inside was loose and a connection to the element had become iffy. Graham |
Internal wiring of USA v UK mains plug
On 27 jun, 22:56, "TT_Man" wrote:
Have you seen the way they connect their wires? They just twist them together and put a plastic cap over the bare wires! Multiply that by double current and it's no wonder they have fires :)- Sounds dodgy! I've spent time in the US and Japan, and I have to say that those flat blade sockets are an atrocious design. They suffer sloppy fit problems very easily . Those countries don't seem to have switched wall sockets either, which the Uk standard has, so you get more arcing if plugging in live equipment (which degrades the contacts even further). The UK plugs are more complex, and expensive, but a damn sight safer and a lot more sturdy and resist wear better -only ever had to replace one or two fittings over the years. I suppose all this is because it is a more recent standard - like the German PAL TV system - which, since it was introduced later, had the edge. -B. |
Internal wiring of USA v UK mains plug
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 01:45:44 GMT, Gary Tait
wrote: "Tam/WB2TT" wrote in : For instance the wiring to an electric clothes dryer will have two 20 Amp hot wires, a 20 Amp neutral wire (from center tap of transformer), and a 20 amp earth ground wire connected to a cold water pipe or ground rod. Actually a typical US clothes dryer uses a 120/240V 30A circuit. And the ground wire always connects back to the services neutral, where things are grounded with rods and/or plumbing. In some localities, the neutral and ground wires can be tied together at the appliance. They way is was, is that it was permitted to run just a grounded conductor (neutral) to the appliance, and bond that to the case. Since 1996 or so, that has been prohibited, so separate neutral and grounding conductors must be supplied to a 120/240V appliance. I think the only reason for the heavy neutral and ground wires is to make sure the circuit breaker trip in case of a short. As recently as about 20 years ago, a much smaller earth ground wire was used. For the safety ground, yes. For neutral it is assumed, to the terminals in the appliance, that the appliance could draw the full current on the neutral. The electric use meter must be more expensive than an unbalanced single phase one. If you mean the US ones, 2-wire 120/240 ones are the norm, so are made in quantity enough not to be expensive. Most US electric meters, at least the electromechanical kind, have one voltage coil (240 volts, l-l) and two current coils, one in each of the 120 volt phases. That computes power based on an assumption of voltage symmetry, usually a reasonable bet. John |
Internal wiring of USA v UK mains plug
"b" wrote in message ps.com... On 27 jun, 22:56, "TT_Man" wrote: Have you seen the way they connect their wires? They just twist them together and put a plastic cap over the bare wires! Multiply that by double current and it's no wonder they have fires :)- Sounds dodgy! I've spent time in the US and Japan, and I have to say that those flat blade sockets are an atrocious design. They suffer sloppy fit problems very easily . Those countries don't seem to have switched wall sockets either, which the Uk standard has, so you get more arcing if plugging in live equipment (which degrades the contacts even further). The UK plugs are more complex, and expensive, but a damn sight safer and a lot more sturdy and resist wear better -only ever had to replace one or two fittings over the years. I suppose all this is because it is a more recent standard - like the German PAL TV system - which, since it was introduced later, had the edge. -B. Done correctly, a quality wire nut is a very secure and long lasting connection. It's not simply a plastic cap, but a plastic casing over a threaded springy metal insert which grips the wires very well. I have some UK terminal blocks, and the problem with them is that there's no mechanical bond between the wires, the contact point is small, and they can and do work loose or corrode over time. They generally are ok, but neither method is greatly superior to the other. The double current isn't really much of an issue, our large loads are 240V too, it's handy to have both voltages readily available. You can get quality US style receptacles, problem is they're expensive so few houses come with them. I like many things about the UK plugs, but the thing I don't like is they're *huge* so things like power strips and multi-gang outlets are really cumbersome. Having discussed this in length with a friend in the UK, we've both come to the conclusion that both systems have many advantages and disadvantages and neither one is a clear winner. |
Internal wiring of USA v UK mains plug
James Sweet wrote in message
news:9hGgi.5824$bj5.164@trndny07... "b" wrote in message ps.com... On 27 jun, 22:56, "TT_Man" wrote: Have you seen the way they connect their wires? They just twist them together and put a plastic cap over the bare wires! Multiply that by double current and it's no wonder they have fires :)- Sounds dodgy! I've spent time in the US and Japan, and I have to say that those flat blade sockets are an atrocious design. They suffer sloppy fit problems very easily . Those countries don't seem to have switched wall sockets either, which the Uk standard has, so you get more arcing if plugging in live equipment (which degrades the contacts even further). The UK plugs are more complex, and expensive, but a damn sight safer and a lot more sturdy and resist wear better -only ever had to replace one or two fittings over the years. I suppose all this is because it is a more recent standard - like the German PAL TV system - which, since it was introduced later, had the edge. -B. Done correctly, a quality wire nut is a very secure and long lasting connection. It's not simply a plastic cap, but a plastic casing over a threaded springy metal insert which grips the wires very well. I have some UK terminal blocks, and the problem with them is that there's no mechanical bond between the wires, the contact point is small, and they can and do work loose or corrode over time. They generally are ok, but neither method is greatly superior to the other. The double current isn't really much of an issue, our large loads are 240V too, it's handy to have both voltages readily available. You can get quality US style receptacles, problem is they're expensive so few houses come with them. I like many things about the UK plugs, but the thing I don't like is they're *huge* so things like power strips and multi-gang outlets are really cumbersome. Having discussed this in length with a friend in the UK, we've both come to the conclusion that both systems have many advantages and disadvantages and neither one is a clear winner. Could someone direct me to pics of the 2 different types of plug/socket system used in the USA to differentiate for medium and high power use, I didn't even realise 220 or 240V was used residentially anywhere in the USA. |
Internal wiring of USA v UK mains plug
N Cook wrote:
Could someone direct me to pics of the 2 different types of plug/socket system used in the USA to differentiate for medium and high power use, I didn't even realise 220 or 240V was used residentially anywhere in the USA. There are several kinds depending upon the current rating and if 120 volts is used too. Before 1996, the ground pin was also used for neutral for things like clothes dryers that had a 120 volt motors and timers and 240 volt heaters. I think that practice was stopped in the late 1970's. In 1996, it became illegal. If your device has a mixture of 120 and 240 volt components, you need to have a four wire plug. I left the U.S. in 1996, so I've never seen them. The simplest kind is used for air conditioners and is similar to a 120 volt grounded plug, with two flat blades and a rounded ground pin below them in the middle. The difference is that the flat blades are the same size and are horizontal instead of vertical. I remember walking into an electronics store in SoHo (in Lyle Street?) around 1983 and talking to the owner for a while. We got on to discussing the differences in power cords and he showed me the 240 volt cords they sent to the U.S. He was surprised that I was familar with them. He also showed me a catalog from a U.S. company called Herbach and Rademan that sold surplus electronics. He imported items from them. It was my turn to be surprised, I lived less than 2 miles from them and was a frequent customer. :-) By 1989, the store was gone, it had become a Chinese grocery. In 2001 I was given a stack of U.K. radio magazines and an article about the store was in one of them. It was written by the nephew of the man I spoke to. Unfortunatley he had no pictures of the store near the end, and although I took many photographs of London that trip, I never thought to take one of the store or his uncle. :-( Geoff. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel N3OWJ/4X1GM IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838 Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/ |
Internal wiring of USA v UK mains plug
["Followup-To:" header set to sci.electronics.design.]
Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote: There are several kinds depending upon the current rating and if 120 volts is used too. Before 1996, the ground pin was also used for neutral for things like clothes dryers that had a 120 volt motors and timers and 240 volt heaters. I think that practice was stopped in the late 1970's. In 1996, it became illegal. If your device has a mixture of 120 and 240 volt components, you need to have a four wire plug. I left the U.S. in 1996, so I've never seen them. Just to add more aspects to this discussion. In Germany, practically all houses have 400V three-phase electricity, which is three 230V phases 120° degrees apart. So all the normal 230V outlets are just a single phase out of those three plus neutral. Big appliances in a fixed location like electric ovens and water heaters get all three phases but are not required to use them in balance. The nice thing about this is that if you want to set up a workshop in your house, all you need is some extra fuses and cable and a couple those nice big, red CEKON sockets. robert |
Internal wiring of USA v UK mains plug
On 28 jun, 05:53, "James Sweet" wrote:
"b" wrote in message ps.com... On 27 jun, 22:56, "TT_Man" wrote: Have you seen the way they connect their wires? They just twist them together and put a plastic cap over the bare wires! Multiply that by double current and it's no wonder they have fires :)- Sounds dodgy! I've spent time in the US and Japan, and I have to say that those flat blade sockets are an atrocious design. They suffer sloppy fit problems very easily . Those countries don't seem to have switched wall sockets either, which the Uk standard has, so you get more arcing if plugging in live equipment (which degrades the contacts even further). The UK plugs are more complex, and expensive, but a damn sight safer and a lot more sturdy and resist wear better -only ever had to replace one or two fittings over the years. I suppose all this is because it is a more recent standard - like the German PAL TV system - which, since it was introduced later, had the edge. -B. Done correctly, a quality wire nut is a very secure and long lasting connection. It's not simply a plastic cap, but a plastic casing over a threaded springy metal insert which grips the wires very well. I have some UK terminal blocks, and the problem with them is that there's no mechanical bond between the wires, the contact point is small, and they can and do work loose or corrode over time. They generally are ok, but neither method is greatly superior to the other. The double current isn't really much of an issue, our large loads are 240V too, it's handy to have both voltages readily available. You can get quality US style receptacles, problem is they're expensive so few houses come with them. I like many things about the UK plugs, but the thing I don't like is they're *huge* so things like power strips and multi-gang outlets are really cumbersome. Having discussed this in length with a friend in the UK, we've both come to the conclusion that both systems have many advantages and disadvantages and neither one is a clear winner.- Ocultar texto de la cita - - Mostrar texto de la cita - Leaving aside the joining wires/terminal blocks issue, on the subject of the plugs and sockets, the UK one to me is superior in many ways. 1. fused plugs. 2. cord grip in plugs 3. screw terminals in plugs -no wrapping wires. 4. ALL receptacles and plugs have earth pin. 5. 3 prong design means a better fit (they don't waggle about at all) 6. much thicker pins - handle more current, do not bend, and seem to resist arcing damage better. 7. switched sockets ......etc. The US /japan one only has the advantage of compact size, personally I can live with a bigger plug if it means better performance. I couldn't care less about cosmetic aspects! just my tuppence' worth. -B. |
Internal wiring of USA v UK mains plug
b wrote:
Leaving aside the joining wires/terminal blocks issue, on the subject of the plugs and sockets, the UK one to me is superior in many ways. 1. fused plugs. Ok, I'll conceed that one, but only 50%, after all, how many people put a 16amp fuse on a .5mm cord? 2. cord grip in plugs You can get them in the U.S. I occasionaly use them here for 120 volt equipment (I brought a few items with me) and had a friend bring me some LEVITON (high quality plugs) from the U.S. They ave execelent grips on them. 3. screw terminals in plugs -no wrapping wires. The Leviton plugs have them too. I'm not sure they are an advantage, the gripping area is the area of the screw shaft,not the circumfrence times the area of the wire surface, a lot smaller. 4. ALL receptacles and plugs have earth pin. Cut me a break. Since around 1960 all of the outlets in the U.S. have grounds. In the U.K. you can buy appliances with 2 condoctor cords with two plug pins that can usually be forced into U.K. outlets. They are supposed to be for export to the E.U. but they are sold. Many of the appliances sold here come that way too, but I must be the only person who cuts them off and puts three pin plugs with large grips on them. I also write the name of the appliance on its plug. It does not make an difference electricaly, the appliances come with two conductor cords and I don't replace them. 5. 3 prong design means a better fit (they don't waggle about at all) See above. 6. much thicker pins - handle more current, do not bend, and seem to resist arcing damage better. That's a big problem here. Many appliances use 15-16 amps (at 230 volts) and come with the smaller round plugs which are rated at 16 amps, but not for continuous duty. When we moved into this appartment, all of the outlets had burnt "hot" pins because the previous tenants plugged high current heaters into them. I replaced the outlet for our oven with an airconditioner plug, which except for the round pins looks like a U.K. plug. It's no longer used we replaced it with a gas oven. 7. switched sockets Maybe. only good if they are not at floor level. One advantage we have here in Israel is that all new construction requires a GFI on all outlets. Usually it's BEFORE the main circuit breaker. .....etc. The US /japan one only has the advantage of compact size, personally I can live with a bigger plug if it means better performance. I couldn't care less about cosmetic aspects! As someone said earlier, it depends upon how much you pay. If you buy cheap junk, you get cheap junk. :-) Geoff. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel N3OWJ/4X1GM IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838 Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/ |
Internal wiring of USA v UK mains plug
In article ,
Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote: b wrote: Leaving aside the joining wires/terminal blocks issue, on the subject of the plugs and sockets, the UK one to me is superior in many ways. 1. fused plugs. Ok, I'll conceed that one, but only 50%, after all, how many people put a 16amp fuse on a .5mm cord? 13 amp is the largest plug top fuse. And all flex these days is such that it will blow a 13 amp fuse in event of a short - to allow for the fact that householders won't use the correct fuse. 2. cord grip in plugs You can get them in the U.S. I occasionaly use them here for 120 volt equipment (I brought a few items with me) and had a friend bring me some LEVITON (high quality plugs) from the U.S. They ave execelent grips on them. You've no choice in the UK - all plugs must conform to the BS standard. One without a cord grip wouldn't. 3. screw terminals in plugs -no wrapping wires. The Leviton plugs have them too. I'm not sure they are an advantage, the gripping area is the area of the screw shaft,not the circumfrence times the area of the wire surface, a lot smaller. 4. ALL receptacles and plugs have earth pin. Cut me a break. Since around 1960 all of the outlets in the U.S. have grounds. In the U.K. you can buy appliances with 2 condoctor cords with two plug pins that can usually be forced into U.K. outlets. They are supposed to be for export to the E.U. but they are sold. No you can't - legally. With the exception of shavers or toothbrushes etc designed to fit a transformer isolated bathroom outlet, everything must be fitted with a '13 amp' plug with a suitable fuse. Many of the appliances sold here come that way too, but I must be the only person who cuts them off and puts three pin plugs with large grips on them. I also write the name of the appliance on its plug. It does not make an difference electricaly, the appliances come with two conductor cords and I don't replace them. 5. 3 prong design means a better fit (they don't waggle about at all) See above. 6. much thicker pins - handle more current, do not bend, and seem to resist arcing damage better. That's a big problem here. Many appliances use 15-16 amps (at 230 volts) and come with the smaller round plugs which are rated at 16 amps, but not for continuous duty. When we moved into this appartment, all of the outlets had burnt "hot" pins because the previous tenants plugged high current heaters into them. I replaced the outlet for our oven with an airconditioner plug, which except for the round pins looks like a U.K. plug. It's no longer used we replaced it with a gas oven. 7. switched sockets Maybe. only good if they are not at floor level. Well if you reach down to plug/unplug you can operate a switch at the same time. Most do as it's sort of bred into them through habit - most outlets have always been switched in the UK. One advantage we have here in Israel is that all new construction requires a GFI on all outlets. Usually it's BEFORE the main circuit breaker. The usual modern way here is to have a split load consumer unit. One set of MCBs protected by an RCD and one set not. The non protected used for fixed loads like cookers and water heaters where slight leakage might cause an RCD to trip. But we seem to be moving to one RCBO (RCD and MCB combined) per circuit. .....etc. The US /japan one only has the advantage of compact size, personally I can live with a bigger plug if it means better performance. I couldn't care less about cosmetic aspects! As someone said earlier, it depends upon how much you pay. If you buy cheap junk, you get cheap junk. :-) In general it's not possible to buy poor quality plugs and sockets in the UK. This is one example of the bottom end price wise, but will give good service for years. http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/AA213SS.html Of course you can pay several times that much for chrome etc finish accessories. -- *Growing old is inevitable, growing up is optional Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Internal wiring of USA v UK mains plug
"N Cook" wrote in message ... James Sweet wrote in message news:9hGgi.5824$bj5.164@trndny07... "b" wrote in message ps.com... On 27 jun, 22:56, "TT_Man" wrote: Could someone direct me to pics of the 2 different types of plug/socket system used in the USA to differentiate for medium and high power use, I didn't even realise 220 or 240V was used residentially anywhere in the USA. Electric clothes dryer, stoves/ovens, and permanently installed air conditioners are only available in 240 V versions. Also, larger sizes of electric space heaters. The first three are probably more likely to be wired in directly to a junction box than to use a plug/socket. There are several incompatible types of 240 V plugs. All are huge, bigger than the UK plug, and expensive. Tam |
Internal wiring of USA v UK mains plug
On Jun 27, 4:56 pm, "TT_Man" wrote:
as an aside someone told me that per million houses there are more house fires in the USA due to wiring faults than any other country, partly due to a lot of timber construction and partly due to the higher current for a given KW of power transfered - is that the case? Have you seen the way they connect their wires? They just twist them together and put a plastic cap over the bare wires! Multiply that by double current and it's no wonder they have fires - Well, much of the "fires" due to faulty wiring are because we have *had* wiring as a general condition in most houses since the early 1900s, so after 100 years or so it gets a little tired, and when overloaded can fail. Of course, 100 years ago, y'all had very nice green lawns and gorgeous buildings.... but little electricity other than the very wealthy. Other fires are due to just plain idiocy on the part of users, such that would occur here, there or anywhere else. Very damned few fires are caused by properly utilized wiring even if 100 years old. As to wire-nuts, what would you propose? Per the code, they must be enclosed, the expectation is that the wires are first twisted together, then the nut is attached, and the internal threaded section is spring-loaded. Are you seriously telling me that wire-nuts are not permitted in your country? De gustibus non est disputandum. Electricity has been working for us over here a good deal longer than it has been working for you over there. The typical poor-man's rowhouse (900 sf, 100 sm) in Philadelphia has been wired since 1913. Parts of NYC have been wired since the late 1800s... On the other hand, there is something to be said for observing the experiences of others for 50 years or so before taking the plunge... Cell phones are a similar item. The US started Analog, only slowly went digital because of legacy issues, Europe dropped the first nearly 10 years of teething, the Middle East and third-world went right to Tri-band.... Peter Wieck Wyncote, PA |
Internal wiring of USA v UK mains plug
" wrote:
De gustibus non est disputandum. Electricity has been working for us over here a good deal longer than it has been working for you over there. The typical poor-man's rowhouse (900 sf, 100 sm) in Philadelphia has been wired since 1913. Parts of NYC have been wired since the late 1800s... My "rich man's" rowhouse built in 1916 in Philly, which was quite deteriorated by 1975 when I moved in had a meterboard marked "Philadelphia Electric Company 1925" on it. I call it a "rich man's" house because it was 1200 square feet, had a basement, hardwood floors and some expensive (at the time) finishing touches. When I moved in it had 25 amp 240 volt service with a four circuit fuse box. I upgraded it to a 16 circuit fusebox and later had the whole thing replaced with 200 amp service. To follow the Philly theme, Willingboro, New Jersey (originaly Levittown) houses were wired with aluminum wire because of a copper miner's stike in South America. By the 1970's the wires broke inside the walls, arced over and caught fire. Geoff. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel N3OWJ/4X1GM IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838 Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/ |
Internal wiring of USA v UK mains plug
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
You're not saying there is 100 year old wiring still in use? No, he IS saying it is in use. Some of it has been replaced, but not all of it. Geoff. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel N3OWJ/4X1GM IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838 Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/ |
Internal wiring of USA v UK mains plug
In article ,
Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote: You're not saying there is 100 year old wiring still in use? No, he IS saying it is in use. Some of it has been replaced, but not all of it. I'm amazed. It presumably has some form of rubber insulation which will have crumbled away years ago. -- *Errors have been made. Others will be blamed. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Internal wiring of USA v UK mains plug
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote: You're not saying there is 100 year old wiring still in use? No, he IS saying it is in use. Some of it has been replaced, but not all of it. I'm amazed. It presumably has some form of rubber insulation which will have crumbled away years ago. More likely cloth, not rubber... Charlie |
Internal wiring of USA v UK mains plug
On 27 Jun, 22:05, "Tam/WB2TT" wrote:
I think there is an inherent safety factor in a system where neither side of a 240V circuit is more than 120 V above earth potential. Never heard of a person being electrocuted who was not standing, or otherwise submerged, in water. This costs money. Its a known deal that 240v is safer than 120 for 2 main reasons. 1. The main killer is not electrocution, it is fire. 2. 240v gives much better discrimination between normal and fault loads. IOW faults have less chance of tripping a breaker in time on 120v circuits. NT |
Internal wiring of USA v UK mains plug
"Charlie Edmondson" wrote in message ... Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article , Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote: You're not saying there is 100 year old wiring still in use? No, he IS saying it is in use. Some of it has been replaced, but not all of it. I'm amazed. It presumably has some form of rubber insulation which will have crumbled away years ago. More likely cloth, not rubber... Charlie As late as about 1980, my father in law's house still had some original ca 1906 wiring. It was cloth over rubber, like telephone wire. In fact, it probably was. Part of the house had been rewired so you could use a hair dryer or clothes iron. Fuses were short pieces of bare small gage wire between two terminals. You had to turn off the main power switch (It had a big handle) to change a "fuse". I hope the new owner did some electrical work. Tam |
Internal wiring of USA v UK mains plug
On 28 Jun, 13:59, (Geoffrey S. Mendelson) wrote:
b wrote: 1. fused plugs. Ok, I'll conceed that one, but only 50%, after all, how many people put a 16amp fuse on a .5mm cord? There are 2 main advantages to fused plugs. 1. When an appliance has its own fuse, a faulty appliance disables itself. With unfused plugs that most countries use, someone can and likely will plug the faulty appliance into another socket at some point, and be exposed to the danger again, possibly several times as it changes hands. 2. The fuse only need be rated to supply the appliance, so most protective fuses will thus be of much lower current rating (typ 3A) than they would be on unfused plug circuits. This improves discrimination greatly, helping to ensure more faults are cleared quickly and safely. 2. cord grip in plugs You can get them in the U.S. I occasionaly use them here for 120 volt equipment (I brought a few items with me) and had a friend bring me some LEVITON (high quality plugs) from the U.S. They ave execelent grips on them. Many plugs not having them means lots of damaged and failed connections due to repeated movement and strain. Sale of gripless plugs has been illegal here since the early 70s. I used to use gripless plugs years ago, and all the bad connections, wires coming out and most-strand-broken conductors that happened then are rarely seen with today's gripped plugs. 3. screw terminals in plugs -no wrapping wires. The Leviton plugs have them too. I'm not sure they are an advantage, the gripping area is the area of the screw shaft,not the circumfrence times the area of the wire surface, a lot smaller. What happens is the copper flex deforms to fit the connector and screw. Having used both modern connectors and old wraparounds, the modern one is much more reliable. The greater contact area of wraparounds is of no benefit in practice, screws provide more than enough contact area. 4. ALL receptacles and plugs have earth pin. Cut me a break. Since around 1960 all of the outlets in the U.S. have grounds. I'd agree with you there, and hope 2 pin UK plugs become permitted one day, probably only premoulded ones on appliances to stop their misuse. However when 2 pin rewirable plugs are sold it is inevitable some will be misused on 3 core leads. In the U.K. you can buy appliances with 2 condoctor cords with two plug pins not legal here. that can usually be forced into U.K. outlets. They are supposed to be for export to the E.U. but they are sold. The only time EU 2 pin plugs are sold on appliances is when a UK adaptor is permanently attached to the 2 pin plug, bringing it up to UK standards. These are seen now and then on imported goods that were orignally intended for the (non-UK) european market. Also there are 2 very similar types of 2 pin plug which sometimes causes confusion. The modern EU ones cant fit a UK socket, the pins are too fat and too closely spaced. Forcing doesnt work. There are also historic French plugs that look similar and do fit our sockets with a bit of fiddling, but very rarely does one see one of those used over here. They have 4mm pins. I dont think I've seen one in over 20 years. 5. 3 prong design means a better fit (they don't waggle about at all) See above. waggly sockets are unheard of here, but common in US. 7. switched sockets Maybe. only good if they are not at floor level. Means goods are switched safely rather than by pulling the lead out, which damages socket contacts by arcing, leading to overheating and fire. Also means many appliances and cords arent left live when not in use. Most UK sockets are switched, though not all. We have a bit of an issue with socket positions here. The great majority of sockets are low down, and this doesn't stop the switches being used. However new builds now require them high up for dubious PC reasons, transforming trailing leads into trip hazards, which I think will only cause more injuries and electrical faults. As someone said earlier, it depends upon how much you pay. If you buy cheap junk, you get cheap junk. :-) ....which naturally dominates a price-led market. A political issue AIUI. Here our cheapest stuff has 3 solid pins, half insulated pins, cordgrips, shutters, screw connections on plugs and all sockets, and is normally solid reliable equipment. It seems to be political why the US doesn't want to stop the sale of unsafe accessories and the deaths that result. NT |
Internal wiring of USA v UK mains plug
On 28 jun, 23:20, wrote:
Here our cheapest stuff has 3 solid pins, half insulated pins, cordgrips, shutters, screw connections on plugs and all sockets, and is normally solid reliable equipment. It seems to be political why the US doesn't want to stop the sale of unsafe accessories and the deaths that result. NT a clear example of what market forces dictate in fact NOT being for the general good. laissez-faire capitalism - what do you expect! ;-) -b. |
Internal wiring of USA v UK mains plug
On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 19:57:19 -0700, b wrote:
On 27 jun, 22:56, "TT_Man" wrote: Have you seen the way they connect their wires? They just twist them together and put a plastic cap over the bare wires! Multiply that by double current and it's no wonder they have fires :)- Sounds dodgy! I've spent time in the US and Japan, and I have to say that those flat blade sockets are an atrocious design. They suffer sloppy fit problems very easily . Those countries don't seem to have switched wall sockets either, which the Uk standard has, so you get more arcing if plugging in live equipment In the US, we know better than to do stupid crap like plugging in live equipment. Good Luck! Rich |
Internal wiring of USA v UK mains plug
"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" wrote: b wrote: Leaving aside the joining wires/terminal blocks issue, on the subject of the plugs and sockets, the UK one to me is superior in many ways. 1. fused plugs. Ok, I'll conceed that one, but only 50%, after all, how many people put a 16amp fuse on a .5mm cord? No-one these days. A lamp for example will come with a plug already fitted and probably a 3 or 5 amp fuse in the plug. Graham |
Internal wiring of USA v UK mains plug
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 07:45:50 +0100, N Cook wrote:
Could someone direct me to pics of the 2 different types of plug/socket system used in the USA to differentiate for medium and high power use, I didn't even realise 220 or 240V was used residentially anywhere in the USA. http://www.voltec-industries.com/nema_chart.html https://www.hubbellnet.com/max_htm/t...EMA/front.html http://nooutage.com/nema_configurations.htm Hope This Helps! Rich |
Internal wiring of USA v UK mains plug
"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" wrote: In the U.K. you can buy appliances with 2 condoctor cords with two plug pins that can usually be forced into U.K. outlets. They are supposed to be for export to the E.U. but they are sold. You can only force them into UK sockets with the aid of a large screwdriver down the earth to open up the shutters. You're not supposed to do that. The neat answer if you want to continue to be able to use them abroad is to use one of these. http://i17.ebayimg.com/04/i/07/20/fb/ag_1_b.JPG http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/EURO-CONVERTOR...ayphotohosting Graham |
Internal wiring of USA v UK mains plug
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 14:20:45 -0700, meow2222 wrote:
It seems to be political why the US doesn't want to stop the sale of unsafe accessories and the deaths that result. Yes. Entirely political. We are the Land of the Free. If people want to electrocute themselves, they have that right. Most of us in America are grownups, who know better, and so don't need nanny queen to wipe our ass for us. Thanks, Rich |
Internal wiring of USA v UK mains plug
Tam/WB2TT wrote: "N Cook" wrote James Sweet wrote "b" wrote "TT_Man" wrote: Could someone direct me to pics of the 2 different types of plug/socket system used in the USA to differentiate for medium and high power use, I didn't even realise 220 or 240V was used residentially anywhere in the USA. Electric clothes dryer, stoves/ovens, and permanently installed air conditioners are only available in 240 V versions. Also, larger sizes of electric space heaters. The first three are probably more likely to be wired in directly to a junction box than to use a plug/socket. There are several incompatible types of 240 V plugs. All are huge, bigger than the UK plug, and expensive. Considering that the UK plug is good for 3kW, it's not really that large. Graham |
Internal wiring of USA v UK mains plug
" wrote: Well, much of the "fires" due to faulty wiring are because we have *had* wiring as a general condition in most houses since the early 1900s, so after 100 years or so it gets a little tired, and when overloaded can fail. Of course, 100 years ago, y'all had very nice green lawns and gorgeous buildings.... but little electricity other than the very wealthy. I'd like to see some supporting data for that litle outburst. Graham |
Internal wiring of USA v UK mains plug
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote: Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote: You're not saying there is 100 year old wiring still in use? No, he IS saying it is in use. Some of it has been replaced, but not all of it. I'm amazed. It presumably has some form of rubber insulation which will have crumbled away years ago. There's still some remnants of old rubber insulated wire in my house. It's in quite good condition actually. I imagine the current PVC stuff must be about 40-50 yrs old. Graham |
Internal wiring of USA v UK mains plug
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Internal wiring of USA v UK mains plug
wrote in message ups.com... On 27 Jun, 22:05, "Tam/WB2TT" wrote: I think there is an inherent safety factor in a system where neither side of a 240V circuit is more than 120 V above earth potential. Never heard of a person being electrocuted who was not standing, or otherwise submerged, in water. This costs money. Its a known deal that 240v is safer than 120 for 2 main reasons. 1. The main killer is not electrocution, it is fire. That is a sociologic/economic. not technical issue. 2. 240v gives much better discrimination between normal and fault loads. IOW faults have less chance of tripping a breaker in time on 120v circuits. I don't know what your load is. The US load per branch circuit is 1800 W, before the circuit breaker in the box will trip. I think a GFI will trip at 10 microamps. Tam NT |
Internal wiring of USA v UK mains plug
"N Cook" wrote in
: Could someone direct me to pics of the 2 different types of plug/socket system used in the USA to differentiate for medium and high power use, I didn't even realise 220 or 240V was used residentially anywhere in the USA. http://nooutage.com/nema_configurations.htm Some are used only in industrial and commercial situations though. Not shown is the NEMA 10-xx configuration, which is used for the aformentioned 120/240V appliances that use a neutral for chassis grounding and as a return for internal 120V loads. They basically have angled hot prongs with a straight or L shaped neutral prong (appropriately sized for the load). FWIW, the NEMA 10-15 plug is exactly the same as a typical Australian plug, less safety features. |
Internal wiring of USA v UK mains plug
In article ,
Charlie Edmondson wrote: I'm amazed. It presumably has some form of rubber insulation which will have crumbled away years ago. More likely cloth, not rubber... If like UK wiring of that age, rubberised cloth. Which crumbles away. Uk wiring was often lead sheathed and inside the sheath the insulation can be perfect. But the ends exposed to air etc not. -- *If only you'd use your powers for good instead of evil. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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