Gurus,

I need your help...

I am an amateur triathlete and I'm getting ready for the start of the
triathlon season and I had this problem last year that I'm trying to
solve.

The problem is that during an open-water triathlon swim I need to skip
a stroke every so often to lift my head out of the water and site the
next turn buoy. I usually find myself off course by a few yards and
need to make corrections. This costs me time from being off course
and from skipping a stroke. So, I had this idea to take apart an old
digital camera or picture phone and mount the camera part to the back
of my head and attach the LCD part in front of my goggles.

Sound crazy? I did a Google search and found that someone has
patented the same idea...

http://www.uspto.gov/web/patents/pat...-20060620.html

The thing is, as far as I can tell it's never been built, and I need
your help to build it.

I took apart a digital camera and was able to power it up and get an
image on the LCD, but the LCD is connected to the camera by what looks
like a proprietary 24 wire ribbon cable and connector that I would
need to build an extension to. Any ideas if that is possible? It
would need to be about 15"-20" long to go from the back of my head to
the front of my goggles. The ribbon is about 1" now. Do you think
the picture quality would get much worse at 15"?

Another issue is that the camera has a lot of extra stuff on it that I
don't need. Do you think there is a way to trim it down to just the
ccd, lcd, a battery and a switch? Do you think a phone would be a
better starting point? I took apart a broken camera phone and I was
able to separate the pieces - but it has the same issue - a very thin
proprietary ribbon cable.

Any other ideas? Am I crazy?

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!

jerry

p.s. please respond to my e-mail and the group.

"jerry" wrote in message
oups.com...
Gurus,

I need your help...

I am an amateur triathlete and I'm getting ready for the start of the
triathlon season and I had this problem last year that I'm trying to
solve.

The problem is that during an open-water triathlon swim I need to skip
a stroke every so often to lift my head out of the water and site the
next turn buoy. I usually find myself off course by a few yards and
need to make corrections. This costs me time from being off course
and from skipping a stroke. So, I had this idea to take apart an old
digital camera or picture phone and mount the camera part to the back
of my head and attach the LCD part in front of my goggles.

Sound crazy? I did a Google search and found that someone has
patented the same idea...

http://www.uspto.gov/web/patents/pat...-20060620.html

The thing is, as far as I can tell it's never been built, and I need
your help to build it.

I took apart a digital camera and was able to power it up and get an
image on the LCD, but the LCD is connected to the camera by what looks
like a proprietary 24 wire ribbon cable and connector that I would
need to build an extension to. Any ideas if that is possible? It
would need to be about 15"-20" long to go from the back of my head to
the front of my goggles. The ribbon is about 1" now. Do you think
the picture quality would get much worse at 15"?

Another issue is that the camera has a lot of extra stuff on it that I
don't need. Do you think there is a way to trim it down to just the
ccd, lcd, a battery and a switch? Do you think a phone would be a
better starting point? I took apart a broken camera phone and I was
able to separate the pieces - but it has the same issue - a very thin
proprietary ribbon cable.

Any other ideas? Am I crazy?

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!

jerry

p.s. please respond to my e-mail and the group.


have you considered one of those wrist watch TVs with an NTSC input, and one
of those super-mini security cams ??

might be easier to waterproof integrated units like that compared to a
custom setup like you described, and completely eliminates custom connectors
from the problem !!

On Mar 17, 1:31 pm, "John Barrett" wrote:
"jerry" wrote in message

oups.com...





Gurus,

I need your help...

I am an amateur triathlete and I'm getting ready for the start of the
triathlon season and I had this problem last year that I'm trying to
solve.

The problem is that during an open-water triathlon swim I need to skip
a stroke every so often to lift my head out of the water and site the
next turn buoy. I usually find myself off course by a few yards and
need to make corrections. This costs me time from being off course
and from skipping a stroke. So, I had this idea to take apart an old
digital camera or picture phone and mount the camera part to the back
of my head and attach the LCD part in front of my goggles.

Sound crazy? I did a Google search and found that someone has
patented the same idea...

http://www.uspto.gov/web/patents/pat...307-3/US070627...

The thing is, as far as I can tell it's never been built, and I need
your help to build it.

I took apart a digital camera and was able to power it up and get an
image on the LCD, but the LCD is connected to the camera by what looks
like a proprietary 24 wire ribbon cable and connector that I would
need to build an extension to. Any ideas if that is possible? It
would need to be about 15"-20" long to go from the back of my head to
the front of my goggles. The ribbon is about 1" now. Do you think
the picture quality would get much worse at 15"?

Another issue is that the camera has a lot of extra stuff on it that I
don't need. Do you think there is a way to trim it down to just the
ccd, lcd, a battery and a switch? Do you think a phone would be a
better starting point? I took apart a broken camera phone and I was
able to separate the pieces - but it has the same issue - a very thin
proprietary ribbon cable.

Any other ideas? Am I crazy?

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!

jerry

p.s. please respond to my e-mail and the group.

have you considered one of those wrist watch TVs with an NTSC input, and one
of those super-mini security cams ??

might be easier to waterproof integrated units like that compared to a
custom setup like you described, and completely eliminates custom connectors
from the problem !!- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yeah, the cameras look small enough, but the receivers would be to
large to mount infront of my face.

"jerry" wrote in message
oups.com...
Gurus,

I need your help...

I am an amateur triathlete and I'm getting ready for the start of the
triathlon season and I had this problem last year that I'm trying to
solve.

The problem is that during an open-water triathlon swim I need to skip
a stroke every so often to lift my head out of the water and site the
next turn buoy. I usually find myself off course by a few yards and
need to make corrections. This costs me time from being off course
and from skipping a stroke. So, I had this idea to take apart an old
digital camera or picture phone and mount the camera part to the back
of my head and attach the LCD part in front of my goggles.

Sound

Will such a device be illegal in competition?

On Mar 17, 2:16 pm, "jim menning" wrote:
"jerry" wrote in message

oups.com...





Gurus,

I need your help...

I am an amateur triathlete and I'm getting ready for the start of the
triathlon season and I had this problem last year that I'm trying to
solve.

The problem is that during an open-water triathlon swim I need to skip
a stroke every so often to lift my head out of the water and site the
next turn buoy. I usually find myself off course by a few yards and
need to make corrections. This costs me time from being off course
and from skipping a stroke. So, I had this idea to take apart an old
digital camera or picture phone and mount the camera part to the back
of my head and attach the LCD part in front of my goggles.

Sound

Will such a device be illegal in competition?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Not yet!

On 17 Mar 2007 11:57:20 -0700, "jerry"
wrote:

On Mar 17, 2:16 pm, "jim menning" wrote:
"jerry" wrote in message

oups.com...





Gurus,

I need your help...

I am an amateur triathlete and I'm getting ready for the start of the
triathlon season and I had this problem last year that I'm trying to
solve.

The problem is that during an open-water triathlon swim I need to skip
a stroke every so often to lift my head out of the water and site the
next turn buoy. I usually find myself off course by a few yards and
need to make corrections. This costs me time from being off course
and from skipping a stroke. So, I had this idea to take apart an old
digital camera or picture phone and mount the camera part to the back
of my head and attach the LCD part in front of my goggles.

Sound

Will such a device be illegal in competition?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Not yet!

---
But, if it's patented, it'll be illegal for you to build one.


--
JF

John Fields wrote:
On 17 Mar 2007 11:57:20 -0700, "jerry"
wrote:

On Mar 17, 2:16 pm, "jim menning" wrote:
"jerry" wrote in message

oups.com...





Gurus,
I need your help...
I am an amateur triathlete and I'm getting ready for the start of the
triathlon season and I had this problem last year that I'm trying to
solve.
The problem is that during an open-water triathlon swim I need to skip
a stroke every so often to lift my head out of the water and site the
next turn buoy. I usually find myself off course by a few yards and
need to make corrections. This costs me time from being off course
and from skipping a stroke. So, I had this idea to take apart an old
digital camera or picture phone and mount the camera part to the back
of my head and attach the LCD part in front of my goggles.
Sound
Will such a device be illegal in competition?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
Not yet!

---
But, if it's patented, it'll be illegal for you to build one.


Illegal to sell it, or to profit by using it. But building one for fun?
Don't think so.

Cheers,

Phil Hobbs

Phil Hobbs wrote:
John Fields wrote:
On 17 Mar 2007 11:57:20 -0700, "jerry"
wrote:
[...]
But, if it's patented, it'll be illegal for you to build one.


Illegal to sell it, or to profit by using it. But building one for
fun? Don't think so.

There was significant debate about this point ~10 years ago with regards to
cryptography. A good archive of it is at:
http://www.ciphersbyritter.com/NEWS3/PATENT.HTM
Unless "for fun" you mean "idle curiosity" then you're out of luck ... Of
course, if noone knows you made something patent-infringing you're not going
to get done over for doing so.

--
Michael Brown
Add michael@ to emboss.co.nz - My inbox is always open

In article ,
says...
John Fields wrote:
On 17 Mar 2007 11:57:20 -0700, "jerry"
wrote:

On Mar 17, 2:16 pm, "jim menning" wrote:
"jerry" wrote in message

oups.com...





Gurus,
I need your help...
I am an amateur triathlete and I'm getting ready for the start of the
triathlon season and I had this problem last year that I'm trying to
solve.
The problem is that during an open-water triathlon swim I need to skip
a stroke every so often to lift my head out of the water and site the
next turn buoy. I usually find myself off course by a few yards and
need to make corrections. This costs me time from being off course
and from skipping a stroke. So, I had this idea to take apart an old
digital camera or picture phone and mount the camera part to the back
of my head and attach the LCD part in front of my goggles.
Sound
Will such a device be illegal in competition?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
Not yet!

---
But, if it's patented, it'll be illegal for you to build one.


Illegal to sell it, or to profit by using it. But building one for fun?
Don't think so.

Building one for education (to learn the art being taught in the
patent) is fine. Building one to avoid paying for a widget? Very
doubtful, but who is going to come after you?

--
Keith

On Sat, 17 Mar 2007 17:36:46 -0500, Phil Hobbs
wrote:

John Fields wrote:
On 17 Mar 2007 11:57:20 -0700, "jerry"
wrote:

On Mar 17, 2:16 pm, "jim menning" wrote:
"jerry" wrote in message

oups.com...





Gurus,
I need your help...
I am an amateur triathlete and I'm getting ready for the start of the
triathlon season and I had this problem last year that I'm trying to
solve.
The problem is that during an open-water triathlon swim I need to skip
a stroke every so often to lift my head out of the water and site the
next turn buoy. I usually find myself off course by a few yards and
need to make corrections. This costs me time from being off course
and from skipping a stroke. So, I had this idea to take apart an old
digital camera or picture phone and mount the camera part to the back
of my head and attach the LCD part in front of my goggles.
Sound
Will such a device be illegal in competition?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
Not yet!

---
But, if it's patented, it'll be illegal for you to build one.


Illegal to sell it, or to profit by using it. But building one for fun?
Don't think so.

---
It doesn't matter what you want to build it for, if you don't have
the patent owner's permission it's infringement.

For an overview, go to:

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac...l/infringe.htm

and for more detail:

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac..._U_S_C_271.htm


--
JF

Phil Hobbs wrote:

John Fields wrote:

On 17 Mar 2007 11:57:20 -0700, "jerry"
wrote:

On Mar 17, 2:16 pm, "jim menning" wrote:

"jerry" wrote in message

oups.com...





Gurus,
I need your help...
I am an amateur triathlete and I'm getting ready for the start of the
triathlon season and I had this problem last year that I'm trying to
solve.
The problem is that during an open-water triathlon swim I need to skip
a stroke every so often to lift my head out of the water and site the
next turn buoy. I usually find myself off course by a few yards and
need to make corrections. This costs me time from being off course
and from skipping a stroke. So, I had this idea to take apart an old
digital camera or picture phone and mount the camera part to the back
of my head and attach the LCD part in front of my goggles.
Sound

Will such a device be illegal in competition?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Not yet!


---
But, if it's patented, it'll be illegal for you to build one.


Illegal to sell it, or to profit by using it. But building one for fun?
Don't think so.

Cheers,

Phil Hobbs
You are correct (as usual).

John Fields wrote:

On 17 Mar 2007 11:57:20 -0700, "jerry"
wrote:


On Mar 17, 2:16 pm, "jim menning" wrote:

"jerry" wrote in message

egroups.com...






Gurus,

I need your help...

I am an amateur triathlete and I'm getting ready for the start of the
triathlon season and I had this problem last year that I'm trying to
solve.

The problem is that during an open-water triathlon swim I need to skip
a stroke every so often to lift my head out of the water and site the
next turn buoy. I usually find myself off course by a few yards and
need to make corrections. This costs me time from being off course
and from skipping a stroke. So, I had this idea to take apart an old
digital camera or picture phone and mount the camera part to the back
of my head and attach the LCD part in front of my goggles.

Sound

Will such a device be illegal in competition?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Not yet!


---
But, if it's patented, it'll be illegal for you to build one.


Absolutely *NOT* true.
It is OK for one to build a device for one's own use; what is
protected is *selling* the devices without a licence from the patent owner.

Robert Baer wrote:

John Fields wrote:

On 17 Mar 2007 11:57:20 -0700, "jerry"
wrote:


On Mar 17, 2:16 pm, "jim menning" wrote:

"jerry" wrote in message

oups.com...






Gurus,


I need your help...


I am an amateur triathlete and I'm getting ready for the start of the
triathlon season and I had this problem last year that I'm trying to
solve.


The problem is that during an open-water triathlon swim I need to skip
a stroke every so often to lift my head out of the water and site the
next turn buoy. I usually find myself off course by a few yards and
need to make corrections. This costs me time from being off course
and from skipping a stroke. So, I had this idea to take apart an old
digital camera or picture phone and mount the camera part to the back
of my head and attach the LCD part in front of my goggles.


Sound


Will such a device be illegal in competition?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Not yet!



---
But, if it's patented, it'll be illegal for you to build one.


Absolutely *NOT* true.
It is OK for one to build a device for one's own use; what is
protected is *selling* the devices without a licence from the patent owner.

I think you should check your facts.

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

On Sun, 18 Mar 2007 06:41:14 GMT, Robert Baer
wrote:

John Fields wrote:

---
But, if it's patented, it'll be illegal for you to build one.


Absolutely *NOT* true.
It is OK for one to build a device for one's own use; what is
protected is *selling* the devices without a licence from the patent owner.

---
Absolutely, totally, incontrovertibly wrong.

I posted these links befo

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac...l/infringe.htm

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac..._U_S_C_271.htm

Didn't you bother to read them?

This subject has come up in these newsgroups before, and the last
time it did I called the USPTO and talked to one of the people there
about infringement and whether it was legal to copy a patent for
one's own use and the answer was a resounding NO!

Makes sense if you think about it. What if you were an inventor and
everyone made a copy of your invention for their own use. Where
would that leave you?



--
JF

Late at night, by candle light, John Fields
penned this immortal opus:

On 17 Mar 2007 11:57:20 -0700, "jerry"
wrote:

On Mar 17, 2:16 pm, "jim menning" wrote:
"jerry" wrote in message

oups.com...





Gurus,

I need your help...

I am an amateur triathlete and I'm getting ready for the start of the
triathlon season and I had this problem last year that I'm trying to
solve.

The problem is that during an open-water triathlon swim I need to skip
a stroke every so often to lift my head out of the water and site the
next turn buoy. I usually find myself off course by a few yards and
need to make corrections. This costs me time from being off course
and from skipping a stroke. So, I had this idea to take apart an old
digital camera or picture phone and mount the camera part to the back
of my head and attach the LCD part in front of my goggles.

Sound

Will such a device be illegal in competition?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Not yet!

---
But, if it's patented, it'll be illegal for you to build one.

A one-off for personal use is allowed.

- YD.

--
Remove HAT if replying by mail.

On Sun, 18 Mar 2007 10:46:24 -0300, YD Gave us:

Late at night, by candle light, John Fields
penned this immortal opus:

On 17 Mar 2007 11:57:20 -0700, "jerry"
wrote:

On Mar 17, 2:16 pm, "jim menning" wrote:
"jerry" wrote in message

oups.com...





Gurus,

I need your help...

I am an amateur triathlete and I'm getting ready for the start of the
triathlon season and I had this problem last year that I'm trying to
solve.

The problem is that during an open-water triathlon swim I need to skip
a stroke every so often to lift my head out of the water and site the
next turn buoy. I usually find myself off course by a few yards and
need to make corrections. This costs me time from being off course
and from skipping a stroke. So, I had this idea to take apart an old
digital camera or picture phone and mount the camera part to the back
of my head and attach the LCD part in front of my goggles.

Sound

Will such a device be illegal in competition?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Not yet!

---
But, if it's patented, it'll be illegal for you to build one.

A one-off for personal use is allowed.


One used to be able to make a "cable box" for "experimental
purposes".

They still may, but using it on the cable line is where the felony
theft of service comes in. Doesn't do much just sitting there without
a cable hooked to it.

If I EVER made a "one off" of someone else's patented product or
process, I would certainly be in correspondence with that person.

It is just plain good civil practice, and if you claim to be a
member of civil society, you should have enough presence of mind to
know the difference between an experiment and a rip off or avoidance
of paying one's dues.

On Sun, 18 Mar 2007 10:46:24 -0300, YD wrote:

Late at night, by candle light, John Fields
penned this immortal opus:
---
But, if it's patented, it'll be illegal for you to build one.

A one-off for personal use is allowed.

---
No, it isn't. Contact the USPTO if you don't believe me:

http://www.uspto.gov/web/menu/feedback.html


--
JF

In article ,
says...
Late at night, by candle light, John Fields
penned this immortal opus:

On 17 Mar 2007 11:57:20 -0700, "jerry"
wrote:

On Mar 17, 2:16 pm, "jim menning" wrote:
"jerry" wrote in message

oups.com...





Gurus,

I need your help...

I am an amateur triathlete and I'm getting ready for the start of the
triathlon season and I had this problem last year that I'm trying to
solve.

The problem is that during an open-water triathlon swim I need to skip
a stroke every so often to lift my head out of the water and site the
next turn buoy. I usually find myself off course by a few yards and
need to make corrections. This costs me time from being off course
and from skipping a stroke. So, I had this idea to take apart an old
digital camera or picture phone and mount the camera part to the back
of my head and attach the LCD part in front of my goggles.

Sound

Will such a device be illegal in competition?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Not yet!

---
But, if it's patented, it'll be illegal for you to build one.

A one-off for personal use is allowed.

No, it is not.

--
Keith

YD wrote:

Late at night, by candle light, John Fields
penned this immortal opus:


On 17 Mar 2007 11:57:20 -0700, "jerry"
wrote:


On Mar 17, 2:16 pm, "jim menning" wrote:

"jerry" wrote in message

legroups.com...






Gurus,

I need your help...

I am an amateur triathlete and I'm getting ready for the start of the
triathlon season and I had this problem last year that I'm trying to
solve.

The problem is that during an open-water triathlon swim I need to skip
a stroke every so often to lift my head out of the water and site the
next turn buoy. I usually find myself off course by a few yards and
need to make corrections. This costs me time from being off course
and from skipping a stroke. So, I had this idea to take apart an old
digital camera or picture phone and mount the camera part to the back
of my head and attach the LCD part in front of my goggles.

Sound

Will such a device be illegal in competition?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Not yet!

---
But, if it's patented, it'll be illegal for you to build one.


A one-off for personal use is allowed.

- YD.

In what country?

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

On Mar 17, 5:21 pm, John Fields wrote:
On 17 Mar 2007 11:57:20 -0700, "jerry"
wrote:





On Mar 17, 2:16 pm, "jim menning" wrote:
"jerry" wrote in message

groups.com...

Gurus,

I need your help...

I am an amateur triathlete and I'm getting ready for the start of the
triathlon season and I had this problem last year that I'm trying to
solve.

The problem is that during an open-water triathlon swim I need to skip
a stroke every so often to lift my head out of the water and site the
next turn buoy. I usually find myself off course by a few yards and
need to make corrections. This costs me time from being off course
and from skipping a stroke. So, I had this idea to take apart an old
digital camera or picture phone and mount the camera part to the back
of my head and attach the LCD part in front of my goggles.

Sound

Will such a device be illegal in competition?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Not yet!

---
But, if it's patented, it'll be illegal for you to build one.

--
JF- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I just looked at the patent he refrenced, and I'm not so sure it
applies.
It talks about using a fiberoptic cable, and seems more of a "flexible
periscope"
than a camera based system.

Which would make the whole patent subthread a moot point.

But I am not a lawyer, and only cursorily glanced at the patent ...

On Mar 17, 5:21 pm, John Fields wrote:

But, if it's patented, it'll be illegal for you to build one.

It's illegal to build one to the patent specs, however patents are
very specific. Using something besides fiber optics, and mounting the
screen in a different manner pretty much gets him around this patent.

You must have a pretty big head if it takes 15" to get from to the back to
one eye.
But seriously I think that you could make the thing work without lengthening
the cable.
You don't really need to mount it on the back of your head because you don't
need to see ahead all of the time, just once in a while. The real issue is
that you need the camera to point up instead of forward like your eyes.

So you could mount the camera on the side of your goggles (at the temple)
pointing up with the screen on front of the lens of one eye and a lens on
the inside of the goggles to allow you to focus that close. Each time you
take a breath the camera will be at the highest point on your head offering
the best view forward. You would probably have to swim with your head
rotated slightly to avoid the drag that immersing the camera would add. Pot
the whole thing up solid with bathtub calk for waterproofing and you're good
to go until the battery runs down.


"jerry" wrote in message
oups.com...
Gurus,

I need your help...

I am an amateur triathlete and I'm getting ready for the start of the
triathlon season and I had this problem last year that I'm trying to
solve.

The problem is that during an open-water triathlon swim I need to skip
a stroke every so often to lift my head out of the water and site the
next turn buoy. I usually find myself off course by a few yards and
need to make corrections. This costs me time from being off course
and from skipping a stroke. So, I had this idea to take apart an old
digital camera or picture phone and mount the camera part to the back
of my head and attach the LCD part in front of my goggles.

Sound crazy? I did a Google search and found that someone has
patented the same idea...

http://www.uspto.gov/web/patents/pat...-20060620.html

The thing is, as far as I can tell it's never been built, and I need
your help to build it.

I took apart a digital camera and was able to power it up and get an
image on the LCD, but the LCD is connected to the camera by what looks
like a proprietary 24 wire ribbon cable and connector that I would
need to build an extension to. Any ideas if that is possible? It
would need to be about 15"-20" long to go from the back of my head to
the front of my goggles. The ribbon is about 1" now. Do you think
the picture quality would get much worse at 15"?

Another issue is that the camera has a lot of extra stuff on it that I
don't need. Do you think there is a way to trim it down to just the
ccd, lcd, a battery and a switch? Do you think a phone would be a
better starting point? I took apart a broken camera phone and I was
able to separate the pieces - but it has the same issue - a very thin
proprietary ribbon cable.

Any other ideas? Am I crazy?

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!

jerry

p.s. please respond to my e-mail and the group.

Jack wrote:

You must have a pretty big head if it takes 15" to get from to the back to
one eye.
But seriously I think that you could make the thing work without lengthening
the cable.
You don't really need to mount it on the back of your head because you don't
need to see ahead all of the time, just once in a while. The real issue is
that you need the camera to point up instead of forward like your eyes.

So you could mount the camera on the side of your goggles (at the temple)
pointing up with the screen on front of the lens of one eye and a lens on
the inside of the goggles to allow you to focus that close. Each time you
take a breath the camera will be at the highest point on your head offering
the best view forward. You would probably have to swim with your head
rotated slightly to avoid the drag that immersing the camera would add. Pot
the whole thing up solid with bathtub calk for waterproofing and you're good
to go until the battery runs down.


"jerry" wrote in message
oups.com...

Gurus,

I need your help...

I am an amateur triathlete and I'm getting ready for the start of the
triathlon season and I had this problem last year that I'm trying to
solve.

The problem is that during an open-water triathlon swim I need to skip
a stroke every so often to lift my head out of the water and site the
next turn buoy. I usually find myself off course by a few yards and
need to make corrections. This costs me time from being off course
and from skipping a stroke. So, I had this idea to take apart an old
digital camera or picture phone and mount the camera part to the back
of my head and attach the LCD part in front of my goggles.

Sound crazy? I did a Google search and found that someone has
patented the same idea...

http://www.uspto.gov/web/patents/pat...-20060620.html

The thing is, as far as I can tell it's never been built, and I need
your help to build it.

I took apart a digital camera and was able to power it up and get an
image on the LCD, but the LCD is connected to the camera by what looks
like a proprietary 24 wire ribbon cable and connector that I would
need to build an extension to. Any ideas if that is possible? It
would need to be about 15"-20" long to go from the back of my head to
the front of my goggles. The ribbon is about 1" now. Do you think
the picture quality would get much worse at 15"?

Another issue is that the camera has a lot of extra stuff on it that I
don't need. Do you think there is a way to trim it down to just the
ccd, lcd, a battery and a switch? Do you think a phone would be a
better starting point? I took apart a broken camera phone and I was
able to separate the pieces - but it has the same issue - a very thin
proprietary ribbon cable.

Any other ideas? Am I crazy?

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!

jerry

p.s. please respond to my e-mail and the group.




Doesn't bathtub caulk use acetic acid to cure, like the original
silicone RTV?
If so, *do* *NOT* use that crap; it will corrode the electronics!

On 2007-03-17, Robert Baer wrote:

Doesn't bathtub caulk use acetic acid to cure, like the original
silicone RTV?

some do, some don't.

If shopping at a hardware place it's best to go with stuff that's
labeled co-poylmer or neutral cure.

if not:
Dow-Corning, GE, etc. make some stuff specially for electronics.

Bye.
Jasen

Jack wrote:
You must have a pretty big head if it takes 15" to get from to the back to
one eye.
But seriously I think that you could make the thing work without lengthening
the cable.
You don't really need to mount it on the back of your head because you don't
need to see ahead all of the time, just once in a while. The real issue is
that you need the camera to point up instead of forward like your eyes.



As much as I like fancy gadgets, it occurred to me that perhaps this is
the wrong approach. How about a simple periscope type device? No
electronics to get wet, no batteries to go dead, no wiring or connectors
to worry about, nice and simple.

On Mar 17, 9:59 pm, James Sweet wrote:
Jack wrote:
You must have a pretty big head if it takes 15" to get from to the back to
one eye.
But seriously I think that you could make the thing work without lengthening
the cable.
You don't really need to mount it on the back of your head because you don't
need to see ahead all of the time, just once in a while. The real issue is
that you need the camera to point up instead of forward like your eyes.

As much as I like fancy gadgets, it occurred to me that perhaps this is
the wrong approach. How about a simple periscope type device? No
electronics to get wet, no batteries to go dead, no wiring or connectors
to worry about, nice and simple.

I tried using a mirror, but because of the angle I needed it produced
way to much drag. I thought a small LCD could be mounted flater and
produce less drag. A periscope would produce even more drag. But
mayby some type of medical scope/device could be used? Anyway, thanks
for the ideas.

On Sat, 17 Mar 2007 10:04:28 -0700, jerry wrote:

I am an amateur triathlete and I'm getting ready for the start of the
triathlon season and I had this problem last year that I'm trying to
solve.

The problem is that during an open-water triathlon swim I need to skip
a stroke every so often to lift my head out of the water and site the
next turn buoy.

Your major problem is your swimming technique. When do you breathe?
How much effort does it take to glance up at the bouy while you're
taking a breath? Or are we talking snorkel here?

Good Luck!
Rich

"jerry" wrote in message
oups.com...
Gurus,

I need your help...

I am an amateur triathlete and I'm getting ready for the start of the
triathlon season and I had this problem last year that I'm trying to
solve.

The problem is that during an open-water triathlon swim I need to skip
a stroke every so often to lift my head out of the water and site the
next turn buoy. I usually find myself off course by a few yards and
need to make corrections. This costs me time from being off course
and from skipping a stroke. So, I had this idea to take apart an old
digital camera or picture phone and mount the camera part to the back
of my head and attach the LCD part in front of my goggles.

Sound crazy? I did a Google search and found that someone has
patented the same idea...


Use a waterproof GPS with earphone. My GPS is much too old to guess about
how to get the voice to direct you around way points. Or maybe the display
could be separated. Brings up the question of how/where are you going to put
the display where it can be seen/focused on while swimming. Get bonus points
for making the antenna look like a shark fin.

Crazy ideas........easy, making them work...........priceless.

jerry wrote:

Gurus,

I need your help...

I am an amateur triathlete and I'm getting ready for the start of the
triathlon season and I had this problem last year that I'm trying to
solve.

The problem is that during an open-water triathlon swim I need to skip
a stroke every so often to lift my head out of the water and site the
next turn buoy. I usually find myself off course by a few yards and
need to make corrections. This costs me time from being off course
and from skipping a stroke. So, I had this idea to take apart an old
digital camera or picture phone and mount the camera part to the back
of my head and attach the LCD part in front of my goggles.

Sound crazy? I did a Google search and found that someone has
patented the same idea...

http://www.uspto.gov/web/patents/pat...-20060620.html

The thing is, as far as I can tell it's never been built, and I need
your help to build it.

I took apart a digital camera and was able to power it up and get an
image on the LCD, but the LCD is connected to the camera by what looks
like a proprietary 24 wire ribbon cable and connector that I would
need to build an extension to. Any ideas if that is possible? It
would need to be about 15"-20" long to go from the back of my head to
the front of my goggles. The ribbon is about 1" now. Do you think
the picture quality would get much worse at 15"?

Another issue is that the camera has a lot of extra stuff on it that I
don't need. Do you think there is a way to trim it down to just the
ccd, lcd, a battery and a switch? Do you think a phone would be a
better starting point? I took apart a broken camera phone and I was
able to separate the pieces - but it has the same issue - a very thin
proprietary ribbon cable.

Any other ideas? Am I crazy?

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!

jerry

p.s. please respond to my e-mail and the group.

The ribbon cable is a standard in the electronics industry and
different lengths are available; did not look to see if 15 inch length
available.
THe worst problem is reliably sealing all of the electronics from
water and moisture.

From the 'keep it simple' school of design: Consider something like a
periscope. Optics only, no electronics.

--
Paul Hovnanian
------------------------------------------------------------------
Porsche 928: 0 to c in 2.125 years, 2.435 light-years per mile^3 of gas

jerry wrote:
Gurus,

I need your help...

I am an amateur triathlete and I'm getting ready for the start of the
triathlon season and I had this problem last year that I'm trying to
solve.

The problem is that during an open-water triathlon swim I need to skip
a stroke every so often to lift my head out of the water and site the
next turn buoy. I usually find myself off course by a few yards and
need to make corrections. This costs me time from being off course
and from skipping a stroke. So, I had this idea to take apart an old
digital camera or picture phone and mount the camera part to the back
of my head and attach the LCD part in front of my goggles.

Sound crazy? I did a Google search and found that someone has
patented the same idea...

http://www.uspto.gov/web/patents/pat...-20060620.html

The thing is, as far as I can tell it's never been built, and I need
your help to build it.

I took apart a digital camera and was able to power it up and get an
image on the LCD, but the LCD is connected to the camera by what looks
like a proprietary 24 wire ribbon cable and connector that I would
need to build an extension to. Any ideas if that is possible? It
would need to be about 15"-20" long to go from the back of my head to
the front of my goggles. The ribbon is about 1" now. Do you think
the picture quality would get much worse at 15"?

Another issue is that the camera has a lot of extra stuff on it that I
don't need. Do you think there is a way to trim it down to just the
ccd, lcd, a battery and a switch? Do you think a phone would be a
better starting point? I took apart a broken camera phone and I was
able to separate the pieces - but it has the same issue - a very thin
proprietary ribbon cable.

Any other ideas? Am I crazy?

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!

jerry

p.s. please respond to my e-mail and the group.



How about using a CCD security camera and an NTSC LCD display? I have a
small panel I found surplus that accepts standard video, the optics
could get clunky though.

"jerry" wrote in news:1174151068.228643.306840
@n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:

I am an amateur triathlete and I'm getting ready for the start of the
triathlon season and I had this problem last year that I'm trying to
solve.

The problem is that during an open-water triathlon swim I need to skip
a stroke every so often to lift my head out of the water and site the
next turn buoy. I usually find myself off course by a few yards and
need to make corrections. This costs me time from being off course
and from skipping a stroke. So, I had this idea to take apart an old
digital camera or picture phone and mount the camera part to the back
of my head and attach the LCD part in front of my goggles.


Cool idea, but.... realistically.... wearing this while you swim will
slow you down...

First of all the drag with the water flowing around it (instead of your
smooth head). Second, the mass will make it more difficult to swing your
head over to take a breath. Third, trying to make sense of that jiggly
image your display is showing you will break your concentration.

Better way: Train a fish to swim the course and just follow it. (Or
build an artificial fish with an internal GPS that you program with the
course.) Or a GPS mounted on your back that steers you by giving you
electrical shocks in the ribs if you get off course.

Alternatively, a monitor with a bird's-eye view of you and the course
markers (aloft on a big balloon or model airplane) would remove the
optics and electronics from your body. Just build a receiver that straps
on your back and gives you electrical shocks to the ribs when you're
getting off course.

Say, can't you just follow the competitor in front of you? Aren't you
all swimming exactly the same course?

On Mar 18, 1:11 am, Jim Land
wrote:
"jerry" wrote in news:1174151068.228643.306840
@n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:

I am an amateur triathlete and I'm getting ready for the start of the
triathlon season and I had this problem last year that I'm trying to
solve.

The problem is that during an open-water triathlon swim I need to skip
a stroke every so often to lift my head out of the water and site the
next turn buoy. I usually find myself off course by a few yards and
need to make corrections. This costs me time from being off course
and from skipping a stroke. So, I had this idea to take apart an old
digital camera or picture phone and mount the camera part to the back
of my head and attach the LCD part in front of my goggles.

Cool idea, but.... realistically.... wearing this while you swim will
slow you down...

First of all the drag with the water flowing around it (instead of your
smooth head). Second, the mass will make it more difficult to swing your
head over to take a breath. Third, trying to make sense of that jiggly
image your display is showing you will break your concentration.

Better way: Train a fish to swim the course and just follow it. (Or
build an artificial fish with an internal GPS that you program with the
course.) Or a GPS mounted on your back that steers you by giving you
electrical shocks in the ribs if you get off course.

Alternatively, a monitor with a bird's-eye view of you and the course
markers (aloft on a big balloon or model airplane) would remove the
optics and electronics from your body. Just build a receiver that straps
on your back and gives you electrical shocks to the ribs when you're
getting off course.

Say, can't you just follow the competitor in front of you? Aren't you
all swimming exactly the same course?

Transporting a trained fish might be tricky. What if it doesn't come
back? My dog doesn't even come when she's called.

Also, we usually have no access to the lake or the course prior to the
start.

A spotter with a walky-talky was suggested but everyone in my wave
will be wearing the same color swim cap and be hard to distinguish.
Besides, I usually can't even get my wife to come to these things with
me, so finding a spotter would be a problem.

And although there usually is someone in front of me - and drafting in
the swim is legal - I've found that most people go off course as often
as I do.

Thanks for the ideas! Please keep them coming!

"jerry" wrote in news:1174227884.949335.233200
@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:

And although there usually is someone in front of me - and drafting in
the swim is legal - I've found that most people go off course as often
as I do.

LOL! It doesn't pay to follow somebody who's lost!

Thanks for the ideas! Please keep them coming!

OK, a gyroscope mounted on your back. On the beach, you point yourself
in the right direction, switch on the gyro and wait for it to rev up to
full RPM. Then it will FORCE you to take the correct course, keeping you
pointed in exactly the right direction. This will get you to the first
marker. The rest... (anyone?)

Or how about this. The marker is hard to see because it's above water,
and your face is underwater. So you could dangle a waterproof strobe
light a few feet below the marker, something bright enough you can see at
a distance. (Of course, all your competitors will see it too, but then
you all have the same problem seeing the marker, right?)

Late at night, by candle light, "jerry"
penned this immortal opus:

Gurus,

I need your help...

I am an amateur triathlete and I'm getting ready for the start of the
triathlon season and I had this problem last year that I'm trying to
solve.

The problem is that during an open-water triathlon swim I need to skip
a stroke every so often to lift my head out of the water and site the
next turn buoy. I usually find myself off course by a few yards and
need to make corrections. This costs me time from being off course
and from skipping a stroke. So, I had this idea to take apart an old
digital camera or picture phone and mount the camera part to the back
of my head and attach the LCD part in front of my goggles.

Sound crazy? I did a Google search and found that someone has
patented the same idea...

http://www.uspto.gov/web/patents/pat...-20060620.html

The thing is, as far as I can tell it's never been built, and I need
your help to build it.

I took apart a digital camera and was able to power it up and get an
image on the LCD, but the LCD is connected to the camera by what looks
like a proprietary 24 wire ribbon cable and connector that I would
need to build an extension to. Any ideas if that is possible? It
would need to be about 15"-20" long to go from the back of my head to
the front of my goggles. The ribbon is about 1" now. Do you think
the picture quality would get much worse at 15"?

Another issue is that the camera has a lot of extra stuff on it that I
don't need. Do you think there is a way to trim it down to just the
ccd, lcd, a battery and a switch? Do you think a phone would be a
better starting point? I took apart a broken camera phone and I was
able to separate the pieces - but it has the same issue - a very thin
proprietary ribbon cable.

Any other ideas? Am I crazy?

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!

jerry

p.s. please respond to my e-mail and the group.

Optical periscope. A tube with some lenses and mirrors.

- YD.
--
Remove HAT if replying by mail.

jerry wrote:
Gurus,

I need your help...

I am an amateur triathlete and I'm getting ready for the start of the
triathlon season and I had this problem last year that I'm trying to
solve.

The problem is that during an open-water triathlon swim I need to skip
a stroke every so often to lift my head out of the water and site the
next turn buoy. I usually find myself off course by a few yards and
need to make corrections. This costs me time from being off course
and from skipping a stroke. So, I had this idea to take apart an old
digital camera or picture phone and mount the camera part to the back
of my head and attach the LCD part in front of my goggles.

Sound crazy? I did a Google search and found that someone has
patented the same idea...

http://www.uspto.gov/web/patents/pat...-20060620.html

The thing is, as far as I can tell it's never been built, and I need
your help to build it.

I took apart a digital camera and was able to power it up and get an
image on the LCD, but the LCD is connected to the camera by what looks
like a proprietary 24 wire ribbon cable and connector that I would
need to build an extension to. Any ideas if that is possible? It
would need to be about 15"-20" long to go from the back of my head to
the front of my goggles. The ribbon is about 1" now. Do you think
the picture quality would get much worse at 15"?

Another issue is that the camera has a lot of extra stuff on it that I
don't need. Do you think there is a way to trim it down to just the
ccd, lcd, a battery and a switch? Do you think a phone would be a
better starting point? I took apart a broken camera phone and I was
able to separate the pieces - but it has the same issue - a very thin
proprietary ribbon cable.

Any other ideas? Am I crazy?

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!

jerry

p.s. please respond to my e-mail and the group.


Fun experiment, but it will slow you down a lot
due to the additional drag and to the time it will
cost as you try to get a good visual fix with it.

Most people would call me a strong distance swimmer,
but those who know - good swimmers - would correctly
call me a crappy swimmer. (~ 36 minutes per mile)
But even being crappy, I can look when I breath
during every fourth stroke, so you can, too, without
missing a stroke. You do have to modify the head
rotation when there's a lot of churn, so the fourth
stroke is marginally less effective than it is in the
pool. But heck - if there's enough churn, follow it.
The guys/gals making it are heading for the same buoy.

Ed

Just to let you guys know .. the reason people top post is because
YOU guys are tooooo lazy to cut the length of quoted text down to under
a page .. you bitch about following policy ... then choose WHICH policy
you decide to follow ...

QUIT POSTING THE WHOLE ORIGINAL MESSAGE !!!!!!!!!!!

or ...

put up with top posting ...

some people dont want to have to scroll every msg down to the second page
to read the response .. !!





(ehsjr) wrote in Z7fLh.873$zN.646@trndny03:

jerry wrote:
Gurus,

I need your help...

I am an amateur triathlete and I'm getting ready for the start of the
triathlon season and I had this problem last year that I'm trying to
solve.

The problem is that during an open-water triathlon swim I need to skip
a stroke every so often to lift my head out of the water and site the
next turn buoy. I usually find myself off course by a few yards and
need to make corrections. This costs me time from being off course
and from skipping a stroke. So, I had this idea to take apart an old
digital camera or picture phone and mount the camera part to the back
of my head and attach the LCD part in front of my goggles.

Sound crazy? I did a Google search and found that someone has
patented the same idea...

http://www.uspto.gov/web/patents/pat...7-3/US07062796
-20060620.html

The thing is, as far as I can tell it's never been built, and I need
your help to build it.

I took apart a digital camera and was able to power it up and get an
image on the LCD, but the LCD is connected to the camera by what looks
like a proprietary 24 wire ribbon cable and connector that I would
need to build an extension to. Any ideas if that is possible? It
would need to be about 15"-20" long to go from the back of my head to
the front of my goggles. The ribbon is about 1" now. Do you think
the picture quality would get much worse at 15"?

Another issue is that the camera has a lot of extra stuff on it that I
don't need. Do you think there is a way to trim it down to just the
ccd, lcd, a battery and a switch? Do you think a phone would be a
better starting point? I took apart a broken camera phone and I was
able to separate the pieces - but it has the same issue - a very thin
proprietary ribbon cable.

Any other ideas? Am I crazy?

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!

jerry

p.s. please respond to my e-mail and the group.


Fun experiment, but it will slow you down a lot
due to the additional drag and to the time it will
cost as you try to get a good visual fix with it.

Most people would call me a strong distance swimmer,
but those who know - good swimmers - would correctly
call me a crappy swimmer. (~ 36 minutes per mile)
But even being crappy, I can look when I breath
during every fourth stroke, so you can, too, without
missing a stroke. You do have to modify the head
rotation when there's a lot of churn, so the fourth
stroke is marginally less effective than it is in the
pool. But heck - if there's enough churn, follow it.
The guys/gals making it are heading for the same buoy.

Ed

On Sun, 18 Mar 2007 20:20:42 GMT, (mojo)
wrote:

Just to let you guys know .. the reason people top post is because
YOU guys are tooooo lazy to cut the length of quoted text down to under
a page .. you bitch about following policy ... then choose WHICH policy
you decide to follow ...

QUIT POSTING THE WHOLE ORIGINAL MESSAGE !!!!!!!!!!!

or ...

put up with top posting ...

some people dont want to have to scroll every msg down to the second page
to read the response .. !!

---
LOL, you make up rules for us to follow and then you don't even
follow them yourself? That is, you didn't even trim the stuff
below, which has nothing to do with your post.

**** you and the horse you rode in on, hypocrite.
---


(ehsjr) wrote in Z7fLh.873$zN.646@trndny03:

jerry wrote:
Gurus,

I need your help...

I am an amateur triathlete and I'm getting ready for the start of the
triathlon season and I had this problem last year that I'm trying to
solve.

The problem is that during an open-water triathlon swim I need to skip
a stroke every so often to lift my head out of the water and site the
next turn buoy. I usually find myself off course by a few yards and
need to make corrections. This costs me time from being off course
and from skipping a stroke. So, I had this idea to take apart an old
digital camera or picture phone and mount the camera part to the back
of my head and attach the LCD part in front of my goggles.

Sound crazy? I did a Google search and found that someone has
patented the same idea...

http://www.uspto.gov/web/patents/pat...7-3/US07062796
-20060620.html

The thing is, as far as I can tell it's never been built, and I need
your help to build it.

I took apart a digital camera and was able to power it up and get an
image on the LCD, but the LCD is connected to the camera by what looks
like a proprietary 24 wire ribbon cable and connector that I would
need to build an extension to. Any ideas if that is possible? It
would need to be about 15"-20" long to go from the back of my head to
the front of my goggles. The ribbon is about 1" now. Do you think
the picture quality would get much worse at 15"?

Another issue is that the camera has a lot of extra stuff on it that I
don't need. Do you think there is a way to trim it down to just the
ccd, lcd, a battery and a switch? Do you think a phone would be a
better starting point? I took apart a broken camera phone and I was
able to separate the pieces - but it has the same issue - a very thin
proprietary ribbon cable.

Any other ideas? Am I crazy?

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!

jerry

p.s. please respond to my e-mail and the group.


Fun experiment, but it will slow you down a lot
due to the additional drag and to the time it will
cost as you try to get a good visual fix with it.

Most people would call me a strong distance swimmer,
but those who know - good swimmers - would correctly
call me a crappy swimmer. (~ 36 minutes per mile)
But even being crappy, I can look when I breath
during every fourth stroke, so you can, too, without
missing a stroke. You do have to modify the head
rotation when there's a lot of churn, so the fourth
stroke is marginally less effective than it is in the
pool. But heck - if there's enough churn, follow it.
The guys/gals making it are heading for the same buoy.

Ed


--
JF

mojo wrote:

Just to let you guys know .. the reason people top post is because
YOU guys are tooooo lazy to cut the length of quoted text down to under
a page .. you bitch about following policy ... then choose WHICH policy
you decide to follow ...

QUIT POSTING THE WHOLE ORIGINAL MESSAGE !!!!!!!!!!!

or ...


Plonk!


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

mojo wrote:
Just to let you guys know .. the reason people top post is because
YOU guys are tooooo lazy to cut the length of quoted text down to under
a page .. you bitch about following policy ... then choose WHICH policy
you decide to follow ...

QUIT POSTING THE WHOLE ORIGINAL MESSAGE !!!!!!!!!!!

or ...

put up with top posting ...

some people dont want to have to scroll every msg down to the second page
to read the response .. !!


Thanks - but somehow your post must've gotten
messed up. The helpful part seems to be missing.

Ed





(ehsjr) wrote in Z7fLh.873$zN.646@trndny03:


jerry wrote:

Gurus,

I need your help...

I am an amateur triathlete and I'm getting ready for the start of the
triathlon season and I had this problem last year that I'm trying to
solve.

The problem is that during an open-water triathlon swim I need to skip
a stroke every so often to lift my head out of the water and site the
next turn buoy. I usually find myself off course by a few yards and
need to make corrections. This costs me time from being off course
and from skipping a stroke. So, I had this idea to take apart an old
digital camera or picture phone and mount the camera part to the back
of my head and attach the LCD part in front of my goggles.

Sound crazy? I did a Google search and found that someone has
patented the same idea...

http://www.uspto.gov/web/patents/pat...7-3/US07062796
-20060620.html

The thing is, as far as I can tell it's never been built, and I need
your help to build it.

I took apart a digital camera and was able to power it up and get an
image on the LCD, but the LCD is connected to the camera by what looks
like a proprietary 24 wire ribbon cable and connector that I would
need to build an extension to. Any ideas if that is possible? It
would need to be about 15"-20" long to go from the back of my head to
the front of my goggles. The ribbon is about 1" now. Do you think
the picture quality would get much worse at 15"?

Another issue is that the camera has a lot of extra stuff on it that I
don't need. Do you think there is a way to trim it down to just the
ccd, lcd, a battery and a switch? Do you think a phone would be a
better starting point? I took apart a broken camera phone and I was
able to separate the pieces - but it has the same issue - a very thin
proprietary ribbon cable.

Any other ideas? Am I crazy?

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!

jerry

p.s. please respond to my e-mail and the group.


Fun experiment, but it will slow you down a lot
due to the additional drag and to the time it will
cost as you try to get a good visual fix with it.

Most people would call me a strong distance swimmer,
but those who know - good swimmers - would correctly
call me a crappy swimmer. (~ 36 minutes per mile)
But even being crappy, I can look when I breath
during every fourth stroke, so you can, too, without
missing a stroke. You do have to modify the head
rotation when there's a lot of churn, so the fourth
stroke is marginally less effective than it is in the
pool. But heck - if there's enough churn, follow it.
The guys/gals making it are heading for the same buoy.

Ed