All right, I really just have one question. I know I'm gonna take a lot
of heat for this; I have before. But I really don't want some long
discussion. I just want to know one thing. Does *anyone* here know how
many persons are killed accidentally by electrocution, annually, in the
U.S.?

If so, can you now subtract the number who are killed by high tension
lines or other high voltages (let's say over 240 volts AC) in an
industrial setting? I did read somewhere that 86% of "electrocution
injuries" (uh, electrocution means death, so I guess they meant electric
shock injuries) are to children aged one to four. So lets leave them
out, too, because we aren't letting our children repair our televisions,
are we?

The thing is, I know safety is a good thing, and I know that it's fine
to caution people about working with and using electricity safely. But,
and here's where I need to swear I'm not a troll, this whole safety
thing, and the dangers of electricity, are exaggerated. Greatly. I think.

Let's see, I've been shocked by 120 VAC about twenty times. By 240 VAC
about twice. By 30,000 volts in televisions about ten times. By a nice
big fat 450 VDC capacitor bank in the big tube amplifiers we used to
build, about five or six times.

Of those, the amps were the worst. Knocked me clear across the room
every time, cussing and sweating.

All right, I'm careless, and a perfect example of why you ought to be
careful. But I'm not dead.

I brought this up once before, a few years back, and took a bunch of
nonsense from people telling stories about people turning into charcoal.
But none of those anecdotes were about people puttering around at home,
sticking forks into toasters and fingers into televisions and breaking
off ground plugs because they can't find the damn adapter, which they
wouldn't have grounded to the screw anyway. They were all stories about
crane operators hitting overhead lines and maintenance guys poking into
the 480 volt mains with big screwdrivers.

Killed. Dead. By electrocution. At home, or in a non-heavy industry
workplace. Annually. In the U.S. Not counting babies. Does anyone know?

"Smitty Two" wrote in message
news
All right, I really just have one question. I know I'm gonna take a lot
of heat for this; I have before. But I really don't want some long
discussion. I just want to know one thing. Does *anyone* here know how
many persons are killed accidentally by electrocution, annually, in the
U.S.?

If so, can you now subtract the number who are killed by high tension
lines or other high voltages (let's say over 240 volts AC) in an
industrial setting? I did read somewhere that 86% of "electrocution
injuries" (uh, electrocution means death, so I guess they meant electric
shock injuries) are to children aged one to four. So lets leave them
out, too, because we aren't letting our children repair our televisions,
are we?

The thing is, I know safety is a good thing, and I know that it's fine
to caution people about working with and using electricity safely. But,
and here's where I need to swear I'm not a troll, this whole safety
thing, and the dangers of electricity, are exaggerated. Greatly. I think.

Let's see, I've been shocked by 120 VAC about twenty times. By 240 VAC
about twice. By 30,000 volts in televisions about ten times. By a nice
big fat 450 VDC capacitor bank in the big tube amplifiers we used to
build, about five or six times.

Of those, the amps were the worst. Knocked me clear across the room
every time, cussing and sweating.

All right, I'm careless, and a perfect example of why you ought to be
careful. But I'm not dead.

I brought this up once before, a few years back, and took a bunch of
nonsense from people telling stories about people turning into charcoal.
But none of those anecdotes were about people puttering around at home,
sticking forks into toasters and fingers into televisions and breaking
off ground plugs because they can't find the damn adapter, which they
wouldn't have grounded to the screw anyway. They were all stories about
crane operators hitting overhead lines and maintenance guys poking into
the 480 volt mains with big screwdrivers.

Killed. Dead. By electrocution. At home, or in a non-heavy industry
workplace. Annually. In the U.S. Not counting babies. Does anyone know?

Smitty

I know what you're saying. Over here in the UK, we have now developed a
culture of "protect everyone against everything, and don't let them be
responsible for their own stupidity ". There is no longer any such a thing
as an 'accident'. It's always someone's fault. There have been cases of
people trying to sue restaurants after burning themselves on hot coffee,
because nowhere did it say " Coffee hot - may burn ". Obviously, real safety
issues should be a proper concern of designers, and electrical safety is
probably one of the more important. As the stuff is invisible, and Joe
Public as a whole does not understand its dangers, it's probably right and
proper that there are serious protections against electric shock, and the
death by electrocution that may ensue, and serious penalties for those
flouting any laws or official design criteria pertaining to such safety.

I have probably had a similar amount of shocks to you over my career (
bearing in mind that all line power shocks are of at least 230 / 240v here )
and they have always thrown me off - with one exception, and that was caused
by a lack of care. We had a large number of graphics terminals to supply to
a defence contractor, and these things always had crappily set up monitors
on them when they arrived from the factory, so always needed tweaking. I had
all the benches full of soak testing units, and had moved onto the floor. I
had my right hand in the depths, at full stretch, and my left arm resting
along the open metal chassis surround of the CRT. I leant to my left to look
at the display, and my right hand went against the ( uninsulated ) terminals
of the power socket. My right arm went immediately rigid, and I sort of fell
forward into the thing, only making the contact more solid and worse.
Although it was probably only a second or two, I promise you, I felt myself
dying.

I don't know how, but I forced myself off eventually. For the next two hours
or so, that right arm did nothing but hang uselessly at my side. I could
make it do nothing. This was a really scary experience, and made me much
more aware of the very real dangers of electricity, but you could look at it
and say " Yeah, sure, but you didn't die, did you ? ". You are right, of
course, but I was only young at the time, and reasonably fit. If my heart
wasn't quite that strong, I really don't think that I would have survived.
So, whilst a lot of electrical safety regulations protect against stupid
people, I don't have a problem with that, as I was once one of them, who
wouldn't have suffered the problem if there had been a regulation at the
time in the US, where these units came from, that stated that input socket
terminals should be sheathed in an insulating material ...

Arfa

I don't know if anyone even accurately tracks that statistic, but I do
know that it's not necessarily how much or what kind of shock you get
as where in your body the current path takes. It only takes a tenth of
an ampere across your chest to stop your heart - hence the "one hand
rule."

In article ,
Smitty Two wrote:

All right, I really just have one question. I know I'm gonna take a lot
of heat for this; I have before. But I really don't want some long
discussion. I just want to know one thing. Does *anyone* here know how
many persons are killed accidentally by electrocution, annually, in the
U.S.?


snip)

All right, a little more googling turned up this page from the National
Safety Council. Numbers are *fatalities* from 2002.

http://www.nsc.org/lrs/statinfo/odds.htm


Total drownings 3447
Drowning *in a bathtub* 352

accidental strangling and suffocation *in bed* 509
inhalation of gastric contents 369

total falls: 16,257
falling from *same level* due to slipping, tripping, and stumbling 646
other falls from *same level* 3610

that's four thousand two hundred and fifty six *deaths* due to just
plain falling down!

Total electrocution 432
electrocution *not* involving electric transmission lines 322

--------------

You are more likely to choke to death on your own vomit, strangle
yourself accidentally with your bed sheet, or drown in your bathtub than
you are to die of electrocution. And more than thirteen times as likely
to die by simply falling down, and that doesn't include stairs or
windows, or other high places!

Now, if the other website I found saying that 86 percent of
electrocution "injuries" (sic) occur to children aged 1 to 4, I'd say
it's quite likely that the death percentage is comparable. So leaving
out infants and toddlers and high tension lines, that's 45 deaths per
year in the U.S. due to electrocution. If only half of those were
industrial accidents other than high tension lines, that's 22 deaths in
the home.

22 deaths. And we think electricity is a horrible monster, just waiting
to leap out and slaughter us at the least provocation. Balderdash.

Smitty Two wrote:

You are more likely to choke to death on your own vomit, strangle
yourself accidentally with your bed sheet, or drown in your bathtub than
you are to die of electrocution.

Maybe if you're not in the regular habit of taking electronic devices
apart and putting your hands in them. But then if you're a roadie for a
rock & roll band, you probably have about a 50% chance of choking on
vomit.

"Smitty Two" wrote in message
news
snip

You are more likely to choke to death on your own vomit, strangle
yourself accidentally with your bed sheet, or drown in your bathtub than
you are to die of electrocution. And more than thirteen times as likely
to die by simply falling down, and that doesn't include stairs or
windows, or other high places!

Now, if the other website I found saying that 86 percent of
electrocution "injuries" (sic) occur to children aged 1 to 4, I'd say
it's quite likely that the death percentage is comparable. So leaving
out infants and toddlers and high tension lines, that's 45 deaths per
year in the U.S. due to electrocution. If only half of those were
industrial accidents other than high tension lines, that's 22 deaths in
the home.

22 deaths. And we think electricity is a horrible monster, just waiting
to leap out and slaughter us at the least provocation. Balderdash.

Tell all this to the idiots who drafted the UK's 'Part P' legislation which
imposes daft limits on DIY electrical work. For example, you can't even
install or change a light fitting, socket or light switch in what is now
deemed a 'hazardous area', ie bathrooms, kitchens, garages, sheds or outdoor
locations.

In their infinite wisdom, they decided you can no longer add outlets to a
ring main- but they do permit you to add one spur. Yeah, that's really safer
than doing it properly.

Conversely, they allow you to completely strip all the wiring out and
replace it- provided the new wiring follows the same path (except in
'hazardous areas'). It beggars belief how they can allow a complete rewire
but forbid inserting one socket into the ring.

Actually- you can do any electrical work you like, provided you get it
signed off by a jobsworth building inspector with no electrical experience
at all and at large cost. The law also applies to professionals- if you
don't get the (costly) accreditation you can't sign off your own work
regardless of your qualifications or experience, which I'm told has forced
many good middle aged sparkies into early retirement.

Not that it stops home DIY'ers, least of all me ;-) How can they enforce it
provided you do a good job? Answer is they can't, so stuff them.

Dave

"Dave D" wrote in message
...

"Smitty Two" wrote in message
news
snip

You are more likely to choke to death on your own vomit, strangle
yourself accidentally with your bed sheet, or drown in your bathtub than
you are to die of electrocution. And more than thirteen times as likely
to die by simply falling down, and that doesn't include stairs or
windows, or other high places!

Now, if the other website I found saying that 86 percent of
electrocution "injuries" (sic) occur to children aged 1 to 4, I'd say
it's quite likely that the death percentage is comparable. So leaving
out infants and toddlers and high tension lines, that's 45 deaths per
year in the U.S. due to electrocution. If only half of those were
industrial accidents other than high tension lines, that's 22 deaths in
the home.

22 deaths. And we think electricity is a horrible monster, just waiting
to leap out and slaughter us at the least provocation. Balderdash.

Tell all this to the idiots who drafted the UK's 'Part P' legislation
which imposes daft limits on DIY electrical work. For example, you can't
even install or change a light fitting, socket or light switch in what is
now deemed a 'hazardous area', ie bathrooms, kitchens, garages, sheds or
outdoor locations.

In their infinite wisdom, they decided you can no longer add outlets to a
ring main- but they do permit you to add one spur. Yeah, that's really
safer than doing it properly.

Conversely, they allow you to completely strip all the wiring out and
replace it- provided the new wiring follows the same path (except in
'hazardous areas'). It beggars belief how they can allow a complete rewire
but forbid inserting one socket into the ring.

Actually- you can do any electrical work you like, provided you get it
signed off by a jobsworth building inspector with no electrical experience
at all and at large cost. The law also applies to professionals- if you
don't get the (costly) accreditation you can't sign off your own work
regardless of your qualifications or experience, which I'm told has forced
many good middle aged sparkies into early retirement.

Not that it stops home DIY'ers, least of all me ;-) How can they enforce
it provided you do a good job? Answer is they can't, so stuff them.

Dave

Amen to that Dave !

Arfa

Smitty Two wrote:


22 deaths. And we think electricity is a horrible monster, just waiting
to leap out and slaughter us at the least provocation. Balderdash.

Maybe not slaughter, but jesus it hurts!

yeh, I agree with you - people talk all sorts of crap about things they dont
understand.

Dave D wrote:
Tell all this to the idiots who drafted the UK's 'Part P' legislation which
imposes daft limits on DIY electrical work. For example, you can't even
install or change a light fitting, socket or light switch in what is now
deemed a 'hazardous area', ie bathrooms, kitchens, garages, sheds or outdoor
locations.

There are some municipalities here in the US that have similar laws,
also including plumbing. It sucks having to drive two counties over
just to buy a circuit breaker!