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| Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems. |
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Lead acid Batteries
Is it possible to resurrect a lead acid battery from the dead?
I have an old 12 volt automobile battery that was stored for sometime in a discharged state. The battery voltage read around 6 volts in the discharged state. I charged it at 1 amp for 10 hours and then tested the capacity using a automotive tail light drawing 1.3 amps. The battery voltage fell from 12.5 volts to around 9 volts within 1.5 hours indicating the capacity was not too much. When I again recharged the battery, it sustained the load for a longer period indicating the capacity had increased to around 5 amp hours. I'm wondering if cycling the battery over several charge and discharge cycles will improve the capacity? This charge and discharge cycling seems to improve the capacity for a couple cycles, how much improvement should I expect from several charge and discharge dycles? -Bill |
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wrote in message oups.com... Is it possible to resurrect a lead acid battery from the dead? This charge and discharge cycling seems to improve the capacity for a couple cycles, how much improvement should I expect from several charge and discharge dycles? You need to deep cycle it according to what I have been told. Fully charge it with a good charger (5 or 10 amps) then run it down with a headlamp load to dim then repeat. A good battery shop could tell you how to do it. N |
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then run it down with a headlamp load to dim then repeat
Rubbish. Car batteries are not designed for deep discharge cycling (running them completely flat). They have no need to be. Doing so will damage a good one. |
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If you use a charger that has "desulfator" capability, you can reverse
much of the sulfation that has taken place on the plates. I have heard many claims on this , both for informed and un-informed sources. Lots of patents have been issued for desulfators. Lots of lab tests..... It probably works. The desulfator chargers cost a little more, tho. Instead of putting a DC or pulsating unipolar AC on the plates, they put a high frequency pulse on the plates to charge the battery with thousands of little pulses per second, the theory being that it "shakes loose" the sulfation. Not complicated, but it takes more than a transformer and a rectifier in the charger...... I haven't tried it myself, but have researched it pretty well. I think it probably works...... Andy |
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"Just Another Theremin Fan" wrote in message oups.com... then run it down with a headlamp load to dim then repeat Rubbish. Car batteries are not designed for deep discharge cycling (running them completely flat). They have no need to be. Doing so will damage a good one. What part of 'dim' did you fail to understand? This is advice from a car battery rebuilder. N |
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On Mon, 23 May 2005 00:04:40 GMT, "NSM" wrote:
"Just Another Theremin Fan" wrote in message roups.com... then run it down with a headlamp load to dim then repeat Rubbish. Car batteries are not designed for deep discharge cycling (running them completely flat). They have no need to be. Doing so will damage a good one. What part of 'dim' did you fail to understand? This is advice from a car battery rebuilder. N Sounds to me it's not the battery that's dim. |
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What part of 'dim' did you fail to understand? This is advice from a
car battery rebuilder. In that case, they really should know better! |
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On 21 May 2005 20:14:08 -0700 wrote:
Is it possible to resurrect a lead acid battery from the dead? I have an old 12 volt automobile battery that was stored for sometime in a discharged state. The battery voltage read around 6 volts in the discharged state. I charged it at 1 amp for 10 hours and then tested the capacity using a automotive tail light drawing 1.3 amps. The battery voltage fell from 12.5 volts to around 9 volts within 1.5 hours indicating the capacity was not too much. The fact that it got to 12.5V indicates that it is probably not shorted internally. Charge it up again and leave it overnight. If it still measures above 12V then it is likely to be restorable. Open up the cell caps and look down each one with a flashlight. You should see the plates with paper separators between them. The paper will be tan colored and I'm guessing that you'll see grey plates between each tan separator. If so, your best bet is to charge the battery extremely slowly. I recommend that you just put a small lamp between the charger and the battery, in series, to limit the current. A charging current of about 50 mA is about right. You will need to keep this up until half of the plates turn chocolate brown. At that point, the battery will be fully charged. If your battery is badly sulfated, this process may take more than a week. During that time you should check the voltage across the battery. You can do this at the same time that you're charging it slowly. If the battery voltage every falls below 12V during this time, you have a shorted cell, and the battery is probably not salvagable. - ----------------------------------------------- Jim Adney Madison, WI 53711 USA ----------------------------------------------- |
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Jim Adney wrote: On 21 May 2005 20:14:08 -0700 wrote: Is it possible to resurrect a lead acid battery from the dead? I have an old 12 volt automobile battery that was stored for sometime in a discharged state. The battery voltage read around 6 volts in the discharged state. I charged it at 1 amp for 10 hours and then tested the capacity using a automotive tail light drawing 1.3 amps. The battery voltage fell from 12.5 volts to around 9 volts within 1.5 hours indicating the capacity was not too much. The fact that it got to 12.5V indicates that it is probably not shorted internally. Charge it up again and leave it overnight. If it still measures above 12V then it is likely to be restorable. Open up the cell caps and look down each one with a flashlight. You should see the plates with paper separators between them. The paper will be tan colored and I'm guessing that you'll see grey plates between each tan separator. If so, your best bet is to charge the battery extremely slowly. I recommend that you just put a small lamp between the charger and the battery, in series, to limit the current. A charging current of about 50 mA is about right. You will need to keep this up until half of the plates turn chocolate brown. At that point, the battery will be fully charged. If your battery is badly sulfated, this process may take more than a week. During that time you should check the voltage across the battery. You can do this at the same time that you're charging it slowly. If the battery voltage every falls below 12V during this time, you have a shorted cell, and the battery is probably not salvagable. Hi Jim... Just off the top of my head, I suspect that at 50 ma's he'd better start charging it now if you wants to use it next winter  Take care. Ken |
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In article .com,
wrote: Is it possible to resurrect a lead acid battery from the dead? I have an old 12 volt automobile battery that was stored for sometime in a discharged state. No. The only way to store a *good* battery is to fully charge it then drain the acid and rinse out with suitable soft water. Seal it in shrink wrap and it will keep for many years, to be revived with fresh electrolyte and a re-charge. -- *It's lonely at the top, but you eat better. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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On Mon, 23 May 2005 13:30:27 GMT Ken Weitzel wrote:
Just off the top of my head, I suspect that at 50 ma's he'd better start charging it now if you wants to use it next winter Yes, it will seem agonizingly slow, but it needs to be slow because the lead sulfate can only be converted to lead as quickly as it will go into solution, and the lead sulfate in a sulfated cell is much less soluble than that in a freshly discharged cell (different crystal structure.) If you try to force the charging process, you'll just hydrolize water, and this can damage the sintered plates if it happens too vigorously. You don't want to "drive off" the lead sulfate, as that takes sulfate ions out of circulation and just leads to buildup at the bottom of the cell which will eventually short it out. With patience, this will generally work if the only problem is sulfation, which is what happens to a battery that is left in a discharged state for a long time. The lead sulfate slowly converts to a much less soluble crystal structure over time. I've done this many times, but it doesn't always work. About half the time you'll find that one or more of the cells are shorted and the battery is only useful as a tradein. I have never managed to restore a shorted cell. - ----------------------------------------------- Jim Adney Madison, WI 53711 USA ----------------------------------------------- |
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I have found from experience that if you keep a lead acid battery fully
charged using a trickle charger, and make sure the water is kept full as well that it will keep for many , many years. Bob "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... In article .com, wrote: Is it possible to resurrect a lead acid battery from the dead? I have an old 12 volt automobile battery that was stored for sometime in a discharged state. No. The only way to store a *good* battery is to fully charge it then drain the acid and rinse out with suitable soft water. Seal it in shrink wrap and it will keep for many years, to be revived with fresh electrolyte and a re-charge. -- *It's lonely at the top, but you eat better. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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On Mon, 23 May 2005 22:57:50 -0500, Jim Adney
wrote: On Mon, 23 May 2005 13:30:27 GMT Ken Weitzel wrote: Just off the top of my head, I suspect that at 50 ma's he'd better start charging it now if you wants to use it next winter Yes, it will seem agonizingly slow, but it needs to be slow because the lead sulfate can only be converted to lead as quickly as it will go into solution, and the lead sulfate in a sulfated cell is much less soluble than that in a freshly discharged cell (different crystal structure.) If you try to force the charging process, you'll just hydrolize water, and this can damage the sintered plates if it happens too vigorously. You don't want to "drive off" the lead sulfate, as that takes sulfate ions out of circulation and just leads to buildup at the bottom of the cell which will eventually short it out. With patience, this will generally work if the only problem is sulfation, which is what happens to a battery that is left in a discharged state for a long time. The lead sulfate slowly converts to a much less soluble crystal structure over time. I've done this many times, but it doesn't always work. About half the time you'll find that one or more of the cells are shorted and the battery is only useful as a tradein. I have never managed to restore a shorted cell. - ----------------------------------------------- Jim Adney Madison, WI 53711 USA ----------------------------------------------- I miss the days when you could buy a battery that was serviceable. A heavy glass plate case with bolt on top and removable plates. They would last forever as long as one was willing to do a bit of service work. |
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In sci.electronics.repair on Mon, 23 May 2005 23:00:20 -0500 "Bob
Shuman" posted: I have found from experience that if you keep a lead acid battery fully charged using a trickle charger, and make sure the water is kept full as well that it will keep for many , many years. Bob I guess this is OT, but I like this story. In 1966 I had a '50 Olds with a 6-volt battery, not strong enough unless totally charged to start my big V-8 in the cold Chicago winter (which is why they started using 12 volt) I had a 1 amp 6volt/12volt charger, given to me by my cousin who gave me the car. I put the charger inside the hood and plugged into an extension cord whenever I was home, but 6 volts was not enough, and I then set it to 12 volts. And the car started all winter. Inside the charger, the glass circuit breaker (which looked like a long glass neon light or a small xmas tree light) tripped ever 30 seconds and reset automatically 5 seconds later, and it ran like that day and night for 4 months. I guess that is about 300,000 times. Years later I had to replace the selenium rectifier with regular diodes, but now it is almost 40 years later and the charger still works fine, including its circuit breaker. The extension cord was something I made up from heavy twisted-pair wire, with steel strands it seemed, rather than copper. It plugged into the pantry of the place we lived and two of the four months, although suspended at both ends, the wire was under the snow for 15 feet, but that didn't cause any problem either. Not even a blown fuse inside where the house. Meirman -- If emailing, please let me know whether or not you are posting the same letter. Change domain to erols.com, if necessary. |
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In article ,
Bob Shuman wrote: I have found from experience that if you keep a lead acid battery fully charged using a trickle charger, and make sure the water is kept full as well that it will keep for many , many years. Indeed, but few will bother. A decent recharge every few months or so would do as well. But I've a suspicion the makers incorporate separators that self destruct if left in the acid. -- *Can fat people go skinny-dipping? Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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On Tue, 24 May 2005 00:34:18 -0500 none wrote:
I miss the days when you could buy a battery that was serviceable. A heavy glass plate case with bolt on top and removable plates. They would last forever as long as one was willing to do a bit of service work. I'm afraid I'm not old enough to have ever seen one of those. When were they used? - ----------------------------------------------- Jim Adney Madison, WI 53711 USA ----------------------------------------------- |
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"meirman" wrote in message ... Make sure you have adequate water in each cell, and use steam distilled water. It's for sale at the supermarket in gallon bottles. The old battery guy I used to go to actually had his own home made water distiller - quite a big one. N |
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On Tue, 24 May 2005 21:03:42 -0500, Jim Adney
wrote: On Tue, 24 May 2005 00:34:18 -0500 none wrote: I miss the days when you could buy a battery that was serviceable. A heavy glass plate case with bolt on top and removable plates. They would last forever as long as one was willing to do a bit of service work. I'm afraid I'm not old enough to have ever seen one of those. When were they used? They quit selling them somewhere around the late 40's, early 50's. Many were still using them for some time after. My father was an electrical engineer and we had them well into the 60's. They kinda looked like an aquarium with a bolt on top, Which was made out of something like bakelite. You'd buy new plates and electrolyte unbolt the case and swap them out. The reason they discontinued their use in autos was for safety reasons of course. One good smash up and you had acid soaked glass shards flying around. Still they'd have their uses in other applications. I'll be moving out to the middle of nowhere soon and will have to generate my own power so instead of buying dozens of sealed batteries for my generator setup rebuildable batterys would make better sense.(I'll pull out some old Audel's and read up on wet cell theory and design and have a go at doing it myself.) - ----------------------------------------------- Jim Adney Madison, WI 53711 USA ----------------------------------------------- |
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Jim Adney wrote in
: On Tue, 24 May 2005 00:34:18 -0500 none wrote: I miss the days when you could buy a battery that was serviceable. A heavy glass plate case with bolt on top and removable plates. They would last forever as long as one was willing to do a bit of service work. I'm afraid I'm not old enough to have ever seen one of those. When were they used? Gee,who wants to mess around with sulfuric acid and lead paste? -- Jim Yanik jyanik at kua.net |
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Jim Yanik wrote:
Jim Adney wrote in : On Tue, 24 May 2005 00:34:18 -0500 none wrote: I miss the days when you could buy a battery that was serviceable. A heavy glass plate case with bolt on top and removable plates. They would last forever as long as one was willing to do a bit of service work. I'm afraid I'm not old enough to have ever seen one of those. When were they used? Gee,who wants to mess around with sulfuric acid and lead paste? It`s only a few years ago when I worked in an entertainment venue where all the emergency lighting was powered by huge glass lead acids, each about 12" high and wide. there was probably 30 or so cells all connected together by exposed lead bars bolted to the terminals, you had to watch where you layed down anything conducting like a spanner!. The charger was in a filing cabinet sized enclosure with a huge transformer, selenium plate rectifiers and wobbly meters on the front ;o) Ron www.lunevalleyaudio.com |
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Andy writes:
I used the method that Jim suggests a number of times over the last 30 years and it always seemed to work well with me..... Leaving the charge rate very low for a LONG LONG time can't hurt, and , for me, has always helped. Unless the battery was mush on the inside, or shorted ......That's what I use for a trade-in on my next battery. In fact, leaving a trickle charge (50-100 ma) or so on forever has never caused me a problem, providing I check the water level every week or so just in case there is a leak or evaporation..... If you do it in your auto, make sure that there is no possibility of the battery becoming disconnected or the terminals being corroded or intermittent , since if the battery isn't "there" to stabilize the voltage, the charger could put a much higher voltage on the car electrical system, damaging components such as the alternator voltage regulator , radio, or computer....... Rarely happens, but is very possible.... However, if you want to start your lawn tractor in an hour, this doesn't work well ( grin ). Just my experience, Andy |
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"none" wrote in message ... They quit selling them somewhere around the late 40's, early 50's. Many were still using them for some time after. My father was an electrical engineer and we had them well into the 60's. I remember seeing something similar but they were the old Edison nickel-iron batteries, used to start emergency generators. They had high self discharge rates. They kinda looked like an aquarium with a bolt on top, Which was made out of something like bakelite. You'd buy new plates and electrolyte unbolt the case and swap them out. The reason they discontinued their use in autos was for safety reasons of course. One good smash up and you had acid soaked glass shards flying around. I never heard of them being used in autos although IIRC Edison wanted to use them for an electric auto. N |
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On Wed, 25 May 2005 14:34:54 +0000 (UTC), "Ron(UK)"
wrote: It`s only a few years ago when I worked in an entertainment venue where all the emergency lighting was powered by huge glass lead acids, each about 12" high and wide. there was probably 30 or so cells all connected together by exposed lead bars bolted to the terminals, you had to watch where you layed down anything conducting like a spanner!. The charger was in a filing cabinet sized enclosure with a huge transformer, selenium plate rectifiers and wobbly meters on the front ;o) Ron www.lunevalleyaudio.com Know what you mean.A few years ago they sent me up to Blackpool to take over a failing casino.Sorted it out and had it up running and making a healthy profit.I went down to the basement on a tour and noticed banks of batteries that looked like junk.The handyman said they were the emergency lighting as the standby genny sometimes failed to kick in.Had them tested and it took 3 grand to have them renewed! Ate into my profits for the year end. Luckily I had a big loser in December to make my budget.Regards "To Soon we get Old,Too late we get Smart!" |
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On Wed, 25 May 2005 17:16:20 GMT, "NSM" wrote:
"none" wrote in message .. . They quit selling them somewhere around the late 40's, early 50's. Many were still using them for some time after. My father was an electrical engineer and we had them well into the 60's. I remember seeing something similar but they were the old Edison nickel-iron batteries, used to start emergency generators. They had high self discharge rates. They kinda looked like an aquarium with a bolt on top, Which was made out of something like bakelite. You'd buy new plates and electrolyte unbolt the case and swap them out. The reason they discontinued their use in autos was for safety reasons of course. One good smash up and you had acid soaked glass shards flying around. I never heard of them being used in autos although IIRC Edison wanted to use them for an electric auto. N That was mostly in the day's of the model A's and T's.(I grew up on a fam and we still had a working T in the shed, that's where I remember seeing them first. Later my father, and electrical engineer, who worked in industrial power service had some of them that were indeed used for backup power. |
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On Wed, 25 May 2005 14:34:54 +0000 (UTC), "Ron(UK)"
wrote: Jim Yanik wrote: Jim Adney wrote in : On Tue, 24 May 2005 00:34:18 -0500 none wrote: I miss the days when you could buy a battery that was serviceable. A heavy glass plate case with bolt on top and removable plates. They would last forever as long as one was willing to do a bit of service work. I'm afraid I'm not old enough to have ever seen one of those. When were they used? Gee,who wants to mess around with sulfuric acid and lead paste? It`s only a few years ago when I worked in an entertainment venue where all the emergency lighting was powered by huge glass lead acids, each about 12" high and wide. there was probably 30 or so cells all connected together by exposed lead bars bolted to the terminals, you had to watch where you layed down anything conducting like a spanner!. The charger was in a filing cabinet sized enclosure with a huge transformer, selenium plate rectifiers and wobbly meters on the front ;o) Ron www.lunevalleyaudio.com Know what you mean. My father who was and electrical engineer started his career out as an electrician's mate in the Navy on electric boats.(submarines) where the entire bottom side of the boat was a long in-series battery array. He had some real stories to tell, what with all that hydrogen sulfide floating around in the crawl space. |
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On 25 May 2005 13:56:40 GMT, Jim Yanik . wrote:
Jim Adney wrote in : On Tue, 24 May 2005 00:34:18 -0500 none wrote: I miss the days when you could buy a battery that was serviceable. A heavy glass plate case with bolt on top and removable plates. They would last forever as long as one was willing to do a bit of service work. I'm afraid I'm not old enough to have ever seen one of those. When were they used? Gee,who wants to mess around with sulfuric acid and lead paste? Well... there is the issue of the high cost of having to routinely swap out dead batteries, not to mention the high cost. ( The actually cost to manufacture a battery is a small fraction of what we have to pay retail for them.) Replating a serviceable battery is much more cost effective and allows for a greater degree of self-sufficiency. |
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On Wed, 25 May 2005 08:42:10 GMT, Ross Herbert
wrote: On Tue, 24 May 2005 00:34:18 -0500, none wrote: I miss the days when you could buy a battery that was serviceable. A heavy glass plate case with bolt on top and removable plates. They would last forever as long as one was willing to do a bit of service work. And before the glass case came the lead-lined wooden box cells. Both wood and glass boxes were still in use in telephone exchanges I worked at during the late 1950's but they were all gone by the early 60's. I even installed some of the wooden cased cells (made up from parts which had been kept in storage for 20 years or more) because there was a shortge in supply of the new polycarbonate cell types. Changing plates in these old cells was not so simple and it was never done where I was. You would simply re-build the complete cell with all new plates. The interconnects between plates were lead-burned in place - which was an art in itself - and it was next to impossible to simply cut one plate out for replacement. When I watched my old man rebuild them he always replaced all the plates. Seemed pretty straight forward, unbolt the box cap then the retaining bolts for the plates and pull them out. Dump the electrolite, flush case with a neutralizer, put in new plates and acid and bolt it all back together.(Of course these units were designed for ease of service) I did years back restore an old German motorcycle, prewar, called a Fluka and it had a glass case battery which we had to have custom plates made for. |
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