"Chris" wrote in message
ups.com...
Winfield Hill wrote:
Chris wrote...


I feel the IP is embedded in the instrument, not the manual. Thus
the manual provides a way to make use of the IP you've bought and
paid for in the instrument. It's the old instruments HP / Agilent
no longer supports that we're talking about here. The simple fact
is that there are *far* more instruments out there, than original
manuals, because when one goes surplus the company's file drawers
of manuals tend to get thrown away or otherwise lost, while the old
instrument exchanges hands a few times and finds a new home.

Plus there are manuals that disappear for who knows what reason.
The manuals for some HP equipment I purchased new when I came to
the
Institute 17 years ago somehow no longer exists at the Institute.
Did a postdoc carry it off with him in his files when he left? Did
it get thrown out by mistake? Who can say, but it's gone. And now
a copy is not available from Agilent, the product line having been
discontinued long ago... So I do rely on others who are willing to
make a copy to keep the IP in my instrument useful.


--
Thanks,
- Win


Thanks for taking the time to respond, Mr. Hill. I stand corrected --
there are far more "orphaned" old HP instruments out there than
original manuals. Your point is valid.

Maintaining an instrument document control system is relatively easy
in
a manufacturing facility with a limited number of engineering
personnel. It's certainly much more difficult in an academic
environment with dozens or even hundreds of students who all want
access to the instruments and their manuals, and don't have enough
experience with instruments to make educated guesses about how they
work.

That doesn't make sense. All the department has to do is hand over the
manuals to the library (this _is_ in an academic emvironment!) and let
them put the manuals in Reserve, where they can be checked out for a
very limited amount of time, say two hours, and not be taken from the
facility. The student can then peruse, or even copy them if he has a
pocketful of dimes. At least this is how we do it at the college where
I work. Actually, the student can now buy credits on a card to put in
the copier, so he doesn't even need coins to make copies. One can see
this big warning sign above the copier with legalese about copyright
restrictions etc. Mostly ignored. :-P

[snip]

I agree that the value of the instrument is inherent in
the instrument itself, not the manual. But just the fact that we're
having this conversation indicates the documentation is of value,
although of another kind. It allows me to utilize the investment in
the instrument.

Everyone, including the legal system, should view certain types of
manuals as different than other IP. In the case of an instruction
manual, this is is directly related to the instrument, and has no real
use or value on its own. Therefor the owner of an instrument should
have the right to own this manual, no matter where or how it was
obtained. I would go as far as to say that the instrument maker should
be obligated to supply one to the owner upon proof of ownership, but the
makers wouldn't want to be stuck with that responsibility.

OTOH the repair, service, maintenance manuals are another case, and
since they might reveal something about the instrument that's not
notmally available to the owner, the owner wouldn't have any right to
these manuals.

[snip]

Thanks again (and the check is still ready to be signed ;-)
Chris

Watson A.Name - \"Watt Sun, the Dark Remover\" wrote...

Everyone, including the legal system, should view certain types of
manuals as different than other IP. In the case of an instruction
manual, this is is directly related to the instrument, and has no real
use or value on its own. Therefor the owner of an instrument should
have the right to own this manual, no matter where or how it was
obtained. I would go as far as to say that the instrument maker should
be obligated to supply one to the owner upon proof of ownership, but
the makers wouldn't want to be stuck with that responsibility.

Hear! Hear!

OTOH the repair, service, maintenance manuals are another case, and
since they might reveal something about the instrument that's not
notmally available to the owner, the owner wouldn't have any right
to these manuals.

Naturally I disagree: Owners of hardware should be able to get the
service manuals for their purchased equipment. Some sellers want
to keep the repair profits for themselves, but in my opinion this
is unwise. OK, we'll leave that point. However, surely you agree
that if the manufacturer made detailed service manuals available
at the time of original sale, as HP did, the associated IP should
be treated the same as the instruction manual, per your statement.

Thanks again (and the check is still ready to be signed ;-)

Which check is that?


--
Thanks,
- Win

wrote in message
...
On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 23:34:35 -0700, "Watson A.Name - \"Watt Sun, the
Dark Remover\"" wrote:

One thought. Many of the test equipment (and manuals) were
duplicated
for the miltary. One off the top of my head is the AN/USM-81 which
was
the same as the Tek 541 'scope, IIRC. This may not be copyrighted,
or
may have some other way of getting around the copyright laws. And
many
schools, such as the military schools, published schematics to use
for
training.

Jeepers, I wish those military manuals were better. I downloaded a few
of them from https://www.logsa.army.mil/etms/online.htm and although
they were usefull, they certainly were not up to par when compared to
the real thing. Often unreadable schematics and missing vital info.

Well, the 'unreadable' and 'missing' sound to me like that's a copying
or scanning problem, not the fault of the manual itself.

Generally, when I was in the army, the manuals were broken down into 5
levels.

1 - operation (like how to drive a car)
2 - maintenance (like how to change the oil, add water to radiator,
etc.)
3 - service (like tires, batteries, etc.)
4 - field repair (like fixing the starter or the brakes)
5 - depot repair (like rebuilding the engine)

Those 5 "echelons" are only a rough idea of how the manuals were
arranged. Some military manuals were combined, such as a "-35" manual
included the 3rd thru 5th echelon - basically everything about service
and repair. A "-15" manual would be all of the above.

You may have to get 2 or more military manuals to get all the info that
might be in a regular equipment manual from the manufacturer.

If anyone has found a better place to download this stuff then I'd
love to see a follow up post about it.

Well, if you are in the military, I would imagine that all of that is
now online and available to the authorized people.

On a side note, it's my experience that there are not many folks out
there who really know how to maintain electronic records without
corruption and loss for more than a few years. I've seen data get
corrupt because folks do silly things like copy large repositories of
data from one place to another and then neglect to do a binary
compare, run disk defrag software against large drives containing
valuable data on machines with crappy systemic bit-error-rates,
transfer gigabytes of data on computers without ECC memory or
without UPS protection, no backup strategies or crappy media or
unmaintained tape drives. Failure to check C1/C2 error rates on
freshly burned CDROMS, and on and on. Many perils.

Welcome to the Real World. Bugs eat papers, manuals and books. Acid in
the paper makes it turn brittle and brown after a few decades, making it
nearly useless. But these problems are not related to the topic were
discussing. However the bookworms should be very concerned about the
copyright restrictions because they are severely restricting their food
source! ;-)

[snip]

Stepan

"Rich Grise" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 23:50:26 -0700, Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, the
Dark
Remover" wrote:
"Jim Thompson" wrote in message
[snip]

But I've had a bias against hp equipment for at least 30 years... a
whole lot of it was crap or became crap within one year. When I
ran the
Phoenix Analog Design Center for GenRad I forbade the purchase of
hp
'scopes.

But their scopes always took a back seat to Tek, so if they didn't
want to
flush money down the toilet, they would not have bothered to invest
the
money to make and sell a scope that was competetive with Tek.

However I used a HP 1741 back in '79, and I thought it was a solid
scope.
It was a blessing after rubbing my fingers raw from turning the
timebase
and other knobs 100's of times a day on a Tek toob scope. The HP
probably
saved the company tons of money on electric and air conditioning
costs by
getting rid of those old Tek toob scopes, which used a half a
kilowatt of
power all day long.

HP dumped their REALLY crap scopes on the military. The worst scope I
ever tried to use was an HP in a waterproof AGE[1] box. Not only did
it
have the legendary "can't trigger" problem that's endemic to HP
scopes,
but the waterproof knobs gave new meaning to the term "backlash."

But then again, the only thing I could honestly testify to re HP test
equipment is they never got the triggering as good as Tek. All of
their
other stuff was, as we all know, essentially perfect.

Aw, c'mon, Rich! We all know that perfect is a straight wire with gain,
with a bandwidth from DC to daylight. And we all know that even HP
couldn't do that. Nice try.

Cheers!
Rich

[1] Aerospace Ground Equipment

Winfield Hill wrote:
snip
Thanks again (and the check is still ready to be signed ;-)

Which check is that?


--
Thanks,
- Win

The check to purchase the third edition of a "certain universally
respected textbook of Electronics Engineering" mentioned above, of
course.

By the way, I bought the second edition used. I'd consider it an honor
to be able to cut a check for a new copy of the 3rd edition, so the
authors could directly see the benefit.

In business, the best way to say "thanks for the help" is in cash.
Which is kind of the point of this whole discussion, I suppose.

Thanks (of the non-monetary variety this time, I'm afraid)
Chris

On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 15:02:37 -0500, John Fields
wrote:


_If_ Agilent was closing them off from a solution, perhaps you'd have
a point. However, I understand that Agilent has licensed the
reproduction and sale of manuals and makes reference to those vendors
in their (Agilent's) web site, so that's hardly what I'd call "closing
them off from a solution".


Have they licensed reproduction of manuals? All the ones listed seem
to be the usual used manual brokers.


John

On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 09:32:23 -0700, "Watson A.Name - \"Watt Sun, the
Dark Remover\"" wrote:



Aw, c'mon, Rich! We all know that perfect is a straight wire with gain,
with a bandwidth from DC to daylight.

Yes, this is the classic 0 dB brickenbox amplifier.

John

Watson A.Name - Watt Sun, the Dark Remover wrote:

That doesn't make sense. All the department has to do is hand over
the
manuals to the library (this _is_ in an academic emvironment!) and
let
them put the manuals in Reserve, where they can be checked out for a
very limited amount of time, say two hours, and not be taken from the
facility. The student can then peruse, or even copy them if he has a
pocketful of dimes. At least this is how we do it at the college
where
I work. Actually, the student can now buy credits on a card to put
in
the copier, so he doesn't even need coins to make copies. One can
see
this big warning sign above the copier with legalese about copyright
restrictions etc. Mostly ignored. :-P

[snip]

I agree that the value of the instrument is inherent in
the instrument itself, not the manual. But just the fact that
we're
having this conversation indicates the documentation is of value,
although of another kind. It allows me to utilize the investment
in
the instrument.

Everyone, including the legal system, should view certain types of
manuals as different than other IP. In the case of an instruction
manual, this is is directly related to the instrument, and has no
real
use or value on its own. Therefor the owner of an instrument should
have the right to own this manual, no matter where or how it was
obtained. I would go as far as to say that the instrument maker
should
be obligated to supply one to the owner upon proof of ownership, but
the
makers wouldn't want to be stuck with that responsibility.

OTOH the repair, service, maintenance manuals are another case, and
since they might reveal something about the instrument that's not
notmally available to the owner, the owner wouldn't have any right to
these manuals.

[snip]

It's been too many years -- placing the manuals on reserve in the
Engineering Department library is an obvious idea. A smart instrument
manufacturer might also allow professors to make a copy for their
personal use or to chain down in the lab, where it's most useful.

If I buy a old used car which is no longer supported by the dealer
network (like a '67 Ford Mustang), I expect a set of keys from the
seller, not Ford. I wouldn't buy a car without them. I feel the
manuals are an integral part of the whole instrument package, and I
also feel that a manual should be sold with a used/obsolete instrument
if it was originally sold with that manual. Ideally, the seller of the
obsolete instrument should provide that manual, and buy it if he
doesn't have it.

Fact is, though, most sellers of old HP instruments don't provide the
manuals. That means we've got to scrounge them up. Agilent provides a
list of suggested vendors he

http://tinyurl.com/brg64

I ran down the eight web links listed on the above page looking for the
HP 5370B manual. ManualsPlus has it for $75.00 USD. Consolidated
Surplus (which is double-linked, there are actually only seven in the
list) shows available, price not listed. W.J. Ford Surplus Enterprises
shows Not Available but e-mail to be sure (too bad -- they rent manuals
for $10/month!). The others come up blank. Also, yesterday I made a
call to another vendor I occasionally use and found that he had it,
too. He wanted more than $75 for it, though.

To be honest, I think all of these arguments about how manufacturers
should provide more manuals for old, orphaned instruments, or broadcast
them free on the internet, would hold a lot more water if there weren't
any used, legal manuals out there.

humor
If I could be permitted an analogy. Let's look at the user manual "The
Joy of Sex" by Alex Comfort. The book is not sex. You don't need the
manual to engage in sex, or to experience joy in sex. The manual has
no intrinsic use for sex on its own, unless you happen to want to know
how to use your instrument better. However, Dr. Comfort's heirs (he
passed away a few years ago, I hear) would be most unhappy to hear
that, because of these admittedly true facts, you copied the manual.
They would, however, encourage you to engage in sex to your heart's
content, even if the instrument is old, and even if it is no longer
well-"supported". As I remember (it's been about 25 years (since I
*read the book*, Rich!) ), Dr. Comfort actually recommended that. :-P
/humor

I still think a lot of this discussion comes down to whether
electronics designers (who, after all, are being paid to create
intellectual property) are just trying to skate around the necessity of
paying for somebody else's intellectual property, which has admitted
value. Otherwise, why would we be having this discussion at all?

I understand everything that's been said about this by others, and
actually agree with a lot of it. I respect these opinions, and
everyone here has good arguments. But I'm not going to change my
opinion, because it's a matter of principle and the way I do business.
My employer or customer is paying for his pleasures. Period. If it's
copyrighted, the person who's paying will get a legal copy. There are
better ways to save a few bucks. And if I buy a used and non-supported
HP instrument (like the HP3456A), I'll spend $25 more for a legal
manual, even though I could find a copy. That's one of the joys of
being in business.

If the copyright laws need to be changed (and Frith knows they do),
then let's change 'em.

Chris

I read in sci.electronics.design that "Watson A.Name - \"Watt Sun, the
Dark Remover\"" wrote (in
) about 'Copyright on HP service
manuals', on Sat, 23 Apr 2005:

I would go as far as to say that the instrument maker should be
obligated to supply one to the owner upon proof of ownership, but the
makers wouldn't want to be stuck with that responsibility.

Most manuals contain warnings about safety issues. Denying access to
those warnings could be contrary to Health and Safety laws.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
There are two sides to every question, except
'What is a Moebius strip?'
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

wrote in message
...
On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 07:42:30 GMT, wrote:

On a side note, it's my experience that there are not many folks out
there who really know how to maintain electronic records without
corruption and loss for more than a few years.

It just occured to me that I used to do a nifty thing to protect my
most valuable data from single byte corruption as can be caused by
oxidized memory DIM contacts etc. I would burn the data to a RAW
CDROM image file which includes error correction and just save it to
my hard drive. Once I did that I could open up the CD image in a hex
editor and pepper it full of crap, but then when I would mount it the
error correction would keep it perfectly readable! Pretty cool.

Well, that doesn't help if the data on the disk itself gets corrupted.
Then you get the all-too-familiar A: drive "Abort, Retry, Fail ?" error
message and you're still SOL.

Stepan

On 23 Apr 2005 02:51:07 -0700, Eric Smith wrote:

Some software will let you generate a "raw" image (2352 byte sectors
rather than 2048). This does contain the top level of the error
correction codes. But it doesn't have the bottom two layers, or the
interleaving, so by itself it doesn't gain much.

I've used CDRWIN to generate my 2353 byte raw images. This is
important to me because things like equipment manuals which contain
text can be kept heavily compressed, so if a single little error
creeps in, it can affect large portions of the text.

Stepan

On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 09:32:23 -0700, Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, the Dark

Aw, c'mon, Rich! We all know that perfect is a straight wire with gain,

No, no. That's the LIRPA, from that QST article "Power a-plenty - for
pennies!" You just take the fat wire out of the back of your transmitter,
and connect it to a skinny wire, and at the joint, all the electrons
crowd together trying to get through the skinny wire, causing a dramatic
increase in voltage, much like a traffic jam.

;-P
Rich

On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 12:58:44 -0700, "Watson A.Name - \"Watt Sun, the
Dark Remover\"" wrote:


Well, that doesn't help if the data on the disk itself gets corrupted.
Then you get the all-too-familiar A: drive "Abort, Retry, Fail ?" error
message and you're still SOL.


Well, you can always read the raw data from the floppy and do data
recovery on the image file by hand... This is where I think it's nice
to have some error correction and interleave in the data being
recovered. You certainly don't get that with FAT12, and especially not
with compressed filesystems. Netapp has an iteresting product that is
esentially a RAID5 but with two parity disks instead of just one. You
have to loose two drives to loose the array.

Stepan

On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 20:09:52 +0100, the renowned John Woodgate
wrote:

I read in sci.electronics.design that "Watson A.Name - \"Watt Sun, the
Dark Remover\"" wrote (in
) about 'Copyright on HP service
manuals', on Sat, 23 Apr 2005:

I would go as far as to say that the instrument maker should be
obligated to supply one to the owner upon proof of ownership, but the
makers wouldn't want to be stuck with that responsibility.

Most manuals contain warnings about safety issues. Denying access to
those warnings could be contrary to Health and Safety laws.

Ha, I *like* it. That's the sort of stuff that a lawyer could
understand. Maybe they'd change their tune if they thought they might
be liable for withholding safety information from users.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 20:31:49 GMT, Rich Grise
wrote:


No, no. That's the LIRPA, from that QST article "Power a-plenty - for
pennies!" You just take the fat wire out of the back of your transmitter,
and connect it to a skinny wire, and at the joint, all the electrons
crowd together trying to get through the skinny wire, causing a dramatic
increase in voltage, much like a traffic jam.

That's called a stub. It's an impedance mismatch causing a standing
wave. The skin effect renders the thin wire resistive, so it's
presence is not relevant. This is a perfectly normal phenomenon, there
is nothing silly about it.

Stepan

On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 10:23:23 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 15:02:37 -0500, John Fields
wrote:


_If_ Agilent was closing them off from a solution, perhaps you'd have
a point. However, I understand that Agilent has licensed the
reproduction and sale of manuals and makes reference to those vendors
in their (Agilent's) web site, so that's hardly what I'd call "closing
them off from a solution".


Have they licensed reproduction of manuals? All the ones listed seem
to be the usual used manual brokers.

---
I though I read here that they had issued licenses, but I didn't check
their website to make sure. Mea Culpa...

--
John Fields
Professional Circuit Designer

On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 07:52:57 -0400, Spehro Pefhany
wrote:

One could argue that the copyright infringement unnaturally prolongs the useful life of
unsupported HP/Agilent instruments, thus reducing the overall market
for new instruments.

On the other hand, providing fee manuals encourages folks who are
RESPONSIBLE FOR making corporate PURCHASING decisions, to buy nice
vintage HP equipment on eBay for hobby use. This is a great way to
promote NEW EXPENSIVE HP product into the corporate environment. If
folks end up purchasing Keithley for hobby use just because they can
download the manuals, they might come to see that some of the Keithley
stuff is quite nice.

Also, each and every time a lawyer sends out a cease and desist in the
name of protecting his client's interests, he can bill for his
service. I'll bet that depending on the arrangement, he can often do
this on his own initiative.

Stepan

On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 16:19:41 -0500, John Fields
wrote:

I though I read here that they had issued licenses, but I didn't check
their website to make sure. Mea Culpa...

Data/IO did something like many years ago with all their vintage EPROM
programmers. They sold/licensed the service/support for their legacy
products to another company, but they did not get out of the business.

Stepan

On 23 Apr 2005 09:01:48 -0700, Winfield Hill
-edu wrote:

Watson A.Name - \"Watt Sun, the Dark Remover\" wrote...

Everyone, including the legal system, should view certain types of
manuals as different than other IP. In the case of an instruction
manual, this is is directly related to the instrument, and has no real
use or value on its own. Therefor the owner of an instrument should
have the right to own this manual, no matter where or how it was
obtained. I would go as far as to say that the instrument maker should
be obligated to supply one to the owner upon proof of ownership, but
the makers wouldn't want to be stuck with that responsibility.

Hear! Hear!

---
I disagree. If the instrument maker supplied an instruction manual
with the instrument when it was first sold, then, as far as I'm
concerned, he's under no obligation to provide further _free_ copies
of that documentation. As a courtesy, it might be nice for them to do
so, but why should they _have_ to?
---

OTOH the repair, service, maintenance manuals are another case, and
since they might reveal something about the instrument that's not
notmally available to the owner, the owner wouldn't have any right
to these manuals.

Naturally I disagree: Owners of hardware should be able to get the
service manuals for their purchased equipment.

---
If they _can_. When you buy an instrument which you know isn't going
to be accompanied by documentation, then why should anyone be
obligated to supply you with that documentation? They shouldn't. The
responsibility for obtaining that documentation falls directly on the
owner of the instrument, and no one else, and to make the assumption
that it should be supplied to you, for free, is ludicrous.
---


an instrumentSome sellers want
to keep the repair profits for themselves, but in my opinion this
is unwise. OK, we'll leave that point.


---
No, let's _not_ leave that point unexplored. _Why_ do you think it's
unwise?
---

However, surely you agree
that if the manufacturer made detailed service manuals available
at the time of original sale, as HP did, the associated IP should
be treated the same as the instruction manual, per your statement.

---
I don't understand the point you're trying to make.

--
John Fields
Professional Circuit Designer

On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 16:39:36 -0400, Spehro Pefhany wrote:

On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 20:09:52 +0100, the renowned John Woodgate
wrote:

I read in sci.electronics.design that "Watson A.Name - \"Watt Sun, the
Dark Remover\"" wrote (in
) about 'Copyright on HP service
manuals', on Sat, 23 Apr 2005:

I would go as far as to say that the instrument maker should be
obligated to supply one to the owner upon proof of ownership, but the
makers wouldn't want to be stuck with that responsibility.

Most manuals contain warnings about safety issues. Denying access to
those warnings could be contrary to Health and Safety laws.

Ha, I *like* it. That's the sort of stuff that a lawyer could understand.
Maybe they'd change their tune if they thought they might be liable for
withholding safety information from users.


Ah! At Last! A thread that has piqued the Grand Masters! ;-P ;-P ;-)
--
Cheers!
Rich
------
"SHOW ME THE WAY"

On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 21:05:28 +0000, snovotill wrote:
On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 20:31:49 GMT, Rich Grise

No, no. That's the LIRPA, from that QST article "Power a-plenty - for
pennies!" You just take the fat wire out of the back of your transmitter,
and connect it to a skinny wire, and at the joint, all the electrons
crowd together trying to get through the skinny wire, causing a dramatic
increase in voltage, much like a traffic jam.

That's called a stub. It's an impedance mismatch causing a standing wave.
The skin effect renders the thin wire resistive, so it's presence is not
relevant. This is a perfectly normal phenomenon, there is nothing silly
about it.

Stepan

Well, notwithstanding the extraneous apostrophe, the whole thing was a gag.
Its name, LIRPA, is "April" spelled backwards, a la "April Fools!"

(to be fair, they didn't say just "Lirpa," they said "Lirpa 1".) :-)
--
Cheers!
Rich
------
"Flappity, floppity, flip
The mouse on the Mobius strip;
The strip revolved,
The mouse dissolved
In a chronodimensional skip."

Unfortunately the restriction of documentation for obsolete equipment is
a profit motive by Agilent as it promotes the planned obsolescence of
older equipment which competes with new equipment on the market.

Joe

Winfield Hill wrote:

Stepan, wrote...


HP is enforcing their copyright over manuals, even for old
unsupported equipment. Look at this:

http://bama.sbc.edu/images/Letter%204-18-05.pdf



I see the BoatAnchor Manual Archive public-service site has
complied, http://bama.sbc.edu/hp.htm removing masses of valuable
documentation for ancient hp instruments from public availability.

That letter from Agilent's counsel is going to bring a massive
response from me as director of a Harvard University research
laboratory, directed to the relevant authorities at Agilent to
get the policy changed. It's dramatically counter-productive to
their own business interests, and it's manifestly unfair to the
owners of old HP / Agilent equipment who for one reason or another
no longer have an operating or service manual, and who cannot get
one from Agilent. For Agilent to close them off from a solution
to their problem is to render their bought and paid-for equipment
useless. It also means Agilent is capriciously denying the implied
warranty of merchantability for their older products; the product
can hardly do what it is supposed to do if the owner doesn't know
what button to push, or how to interpret the panel reading. And
it means Agilent is denying the owners' right to his own self-help
in repairing something he purchased fair and square. Moreover, it
takes a big step toward removing from the public weal the value of
old instruments, no longer manufactured, which in many cases are
not replaced by newer instruments performing the same function.





--
Joe Leikhim K4SAT
"The RFI-EMI-GUY"

The Lost Deep Thoughts By: Jack Handey
Before a mad scientist goes mad, there's probably a time
when he's only partially mad. And this is the time when he's
going to throw his best parties.

wrote in message
...
On 23 Apr 2005 02:51:07 -0700, Eric Smith wrote:

Some software will let you generate a "raw" image (2352 byte sectors
rather than 2048). This does contain the top level of the error
correction codes. But it doesn't have the bottom two layers, or the
interleaving, so by itself it doesn't gain much.

I've used CDRWIN to generate my 2353 byte raw images. This is
important to me because things like equipment manuals which contain
text can be kept heavily compressed, so if a single little error
creeps in, it can affect large portions of the text.

Stepan

Compression used to be necessary when HDDs were under a GB, but not
anymore. Compress your .JPGs, .MPGs and .WAVs, but don't try to
compress something that doesn't take up much room to begin with. HDD
space is a half buck per GB, fer crying out loud! Use it! Instead of
compressing the data, get a bigger HDD!

"**THE-RFI-EMI-GUY**" wrote in message
. ..
Unfortunately the restriction of documentation for obsolete equipment
is
a profit motive by Agilent as it promotes the planned obsolescence of
older equipment which competes with new equipment on the market.

That sounds like Marketing-Speak to me. You can put it where the sun
don't shine.

Joe
[snip]

--
Joe Leikhim K4SAT
"The RFI-EMI-GUY"

On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 19:49:03 -0700, "Watson A.Name - \"Watt Sun, the
Dark Remover\"" wrote:


Compression used to be necessary when HDDs were under a GB, but not
anymore. Compress your .JPGs, .MPGs and .WAVs, but don't try to
compress something that doesn't take up much room to begin with. HDD
space is a half buck per GB, fer crying out loud! Use it! Instead of
compressing the data, get a bigger HDD!

I wish I could afford more space. I've got a 250GB drive in my server,
and then I have two more 250GB drives that I use for rotating backups.
Once a year I freeze the backup to DVD. What I need is four 250GB
drives in a RAID5 in my server, but then I have to buy more drives for
backup too. The price quickly becomes prohibitive, and I'm not even
taking the cost of a SATA RAID5 controller (3ware?) into account.

Ouch!

On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 00:17:17 GMT, Rich The Newsgroup Wacko
wrote:

"Flappity, floppity, flip
The mouse on the Mobius strip;
The strip revolved,
The mouse dissolved
In a chronodimensional skip."

If you planted grass on a mobius strip,
then your mouse could never say that the
grass is always greener on the other side.

Stepan

On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 03:34:30 GMT, wrote:

On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 19:49:03 -0700, "Watson A.Name - \"Watt Sun, the
Dark Remover\"" wrote:


Compression used to be necessary when HDDs were under a GB, but not
anymore. Compress your .JPGs, .MPGs and .WAVs, but don't try to
compress something that doesn't take up much room to begin with. HDD
space is a half buck per GB, fer crying out loud! Use it! Instead of
compressing the data, get a bigger HDD!

I wish I could afford more space. I've got a 250GB drive in my server,
and then I have two more 250GB drives that I use for rotating backups.
Once a year I freeze the backup to DVD. What I need is four 250GB
drives in a RAID5 in my server, but then I have to buy more drives for
backup too. The price quickly becomes prohibitive, and I'm not even
taking the cost of a SATA RAID5 controller (3ware?) into account.

Ouch!

Wow. 1T byte. What are you storing, if I may ask?

I sense I am getting flamed for some reason. I am not an apologist for
Agilent. In fact when I buy any substantial new equipment I insist on
getting full service manuals because of that very reason.

Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, the Dark Remover" wrote:

"**THE-RFI-EMI-GUY**" wrote in message
...


Unfortunately the restriction of documentation for obsolete equipment


is


a profit motive by Agilent as it promotes the planned obsolescence of
older equipment which competes with new equipment on the market.



That sounds like Marketing-Speak to me. You can put it where the sun
don't shine.



Joe


[snip]


--
Joe Leikhim K4SAT
"The RFI-EMI-GUY"







--
Joe Leikhim K4SAT
"The RFI-EMI-GUY"

The Lost Deep Thoughts By: Jack Handey
Before a mad scientist goes mad, there's probably a time
when he's only partially mad. And this is the time when he's
going to throw his best parties.

I read in sci.electronics.design that wrote (in
) about 'Copyright on HP
service manuals', on Sun, 24 Apr 2005:

If you planted grass on a mobius strip, then your mouse could never say
that the grass is always greener on the other side.

The grass wouldn't grow, because it wouldn't be able to work up which
way was 'up'.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
There are two sides to every question, except
'What is a Moebius strip?'
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

John Woodgate wrote:

I read in sci.electronics.design that wrote (in
) about 'Copyright on HP
service manuals', on Sun, 24 Apr 2005:

If you planted grass on a mobius strip, then your mouse could never say
that the grass is always greener on the other side.

The grass wouldn't grow, because it wouldn't be able to work up which
way was 'up'.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
There are two sides to every question, except
'What is a Moebius strip?'

The Moebius strip was inspired after observing that politicians
wander all over the place, never get anywhere, and always end up where
they started! ;-)
--
Former professional electron wrangler.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 15:01:22 +1000, dmm
wrote:


Wow. 1T byte. What are you storing, if I may ask?

Well, it's easy to fill a big drive up when you use computers in place
of your TV/VCR and Stereo, and when you scan everything in, digital
camera which takes movie clips, the wife and two kids, a home network
with 7 computers on it, and software for both windows and linux, a
full set of MAME ROMS and disk images, bla bla bla.

We have 37 terrabytes worth of x-rays, CT scans etc at the hospital
where I work, all online in spinning disk, so a measly 250GB at home
doesn't look like a lot in comparison. A few more years and we'll all
have terrabyte hard drives at home.

Stepan

wrote in message
...
On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 19:49:03 -0700, "Watson A.Name - \"Watt Sun, the
Dark Remover\"" wrote:


Compression used to be necessary when HDDs were under a GB, but not
anymore. Compress your .JPGs, .MPGs and .WAVs, but don't try to
compress something that doesn't take up much room to begin with. HDD
space is a half buck per GB, fer crying out loud! Use it! Instead
of
compressing the data, get a bigger HDD!

I wish I could afford more space. I've got a 250GB drive in my server,
and then I have two more 250GB drives that I use for rotating backups.
Once a year I freeze the backup to DVD. What I need is four 250GB
drives in a RAID5 in my server, but then I have to buy more drives for
backup too. The price quickly becomes prohibitive, and I'm not even
taking the cost of a SATA RAID5 controller (3ware?) into account.

Ouch!

Gimme a stinkin' break! It's all that crap - music and movies - that's
taking up all your space. Get rid of them! Or put them on CDs or DVDs.

Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, the Dark Remover" wrote:

Try this source. I got some HP manuals from Ed Matsuda for a very
reasonable price. His email address is edmatsuda at earthlink.net.

[snip]

Thanks for that. I have in fact been offered the loan of a manaul.

"**THE-RFI-EMI-GUY**" wrote in message
...
I sense I am getting flamed for some reason. I am not an apologist for
Agilent. In fact when I buy any substantial new equipment I insist on
getting full service manuals because of that very reason.

No. If the equipment makers have to sell newer equipment by making it
difficult for used equipment, instead of adding features and performance
to the newer equipment to make it sell itself, then they're just a bunch
of marketers and should be in the 'selling sugar water' business, as
Jobs once put it.

Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, the Dark Remover" wrote:

"**THE-RFI-EMI-GUY**" wrote in message
...


Unfortunately the restriction of documentation for obsolete
equipment


is


a profit motive by Agilent as it promotes the planned obsolescence
of
older equipment which competes with new equipment on the market.



That sounds like Marketing-Speak to me. You can put it where the sun
don't shine.



Joe


[snip]


--
Joe Leikhim K4SAT
"The RFI-EMI-GUY"







--
Joe Leikhim K4SAT
"The RFI-EMI-GUY"

The Lost Deep Thoughts By: Jack Handey
Before a mad scientist goes mad, there's probably a time
when he's only partially mad. And this is the time when he's
going to throw his best parties.

Gimme a stinkin' break! It's all that crap - music and movies - that's
taking up all your space. Get rid of them! Or put them on CDs or DVDs.

What about convenience Watson? I really *like* having everything
online and centrally accessible, instead of having to dig for it. Hey
I can even pull my stuff up at work and at other peoples homes. That's
really nice one-stop shopping! Plus if my house burns down or I get
robbed, then I can just restore a backup. I'm actually serious. It's
not that I'm just trying to get a rise out of you....

Stepan

["Followup-To:" header set to sci.electronics.design.]
On 23 Apr 2005 09:01:48 -0700,
Winfield Hill -edu wrote
in Msg.

Naturally I disagree: Owners of hardware should be able to get the
service manuals for their purchased equipment. Some sellers want
to keep the repair profits for themselves, but in my opinion this
is unwise. OK, we'll leave that point.

When shopping for expensive lab equipment for my employer I've always made
the purchase dependent on the vendor's willingness to supply full
schematics. Not only for repair, but also for modifications that are
sometimes necessary for research use.

Some of our best STM data aquisition systems were purchased from a company
that was very hard-ass about releasing the schematics (a British company
named "WA", later aquired by Oxford Instruments). If it weren't for the
schematics that we forced them to turn over those systems would now be
useless. Ironically the company went out of business, whereas another one
in the same market that always ships equipment with full schematics
(Omicron) is still doing fine.

--Daniel

["Followup-To:" header set to sci.electronics.design.]
On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 16:53:08 -0500,
John Fields wrote
in Msg.

I disagree. If the instrument maker supplied an instruction manual
with the instrument when it was first sold, then, as far as I'm
concerned, he's under no obligation to provide further _free_ copies
of that documentation. As a courtesy, it might be nice for them to do
so, but why should they _have_ to?

I don't think they should _have_ to, but at least they should refrain from
enforcing copyrights on the manuals (i.e., keeping customers from sharing
copies).

---
No, let's _not_ leave that point unexplored. _Why_ do you think it's
unwise?
---

Bad marketing. I at least am much more likely to purchase some new
equipment from company X if I know that they are actively or passively
supporting out-of-date equipment.

Lynx Robotics, for example, is such a company: Although they have long ago
shifted their line of business to something else, you can still download
the old DOS software for their motion control equipment made in the 80's
from their website. For free, without registration. In my eyes, as a
potential customer, that makes them _very_ attractive.

--Daniel

wrote:

On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 23:34:35 -0700, "Watson A.Name - \"Watt Sun, the
Dark Remover\"" wrote:

One thought. Many of the test equipment (and manuals) were duplicated
for the miltary. One off the top of my head is the AN/USM-81 which was
the same as the Tek 541 'scope, IIRC. This may not be copyrighted, or
may have some other way of getting around the copyright laws. And many
schools, such as the military schools, published schematics to use for
training.

Jeepers, I wish those military manuals were better. I downloaded a few
of them from https://www.logsa.army.mil/etms/online.htm and although
they were usefull, they certainly were not up to par when compared to
the real thing. Often unreadable schematics and missing vital info.

I can't even access that website. A real pity. It appears I have
misplaced the PDF file with the service manual of my HP3466A
multi-meter.

--
Reply to nico@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.)
Bedrijven en winkels vindt U op www.adresboekje.nl

https://www.logsa.army.mil/etms/online.htm
I can't even access that website.

The military is screening IP addresses, trying to match them to
geographic locations, and blocking access from outside the US.

The screening isn't perfect, BTW. Sometimes real USAians cannot get to
it, sometimes foreigners can...

Tim.

I read in sci.electronics.design that Nico Coesel
wrote (in ) about 'Copyright on HP
service manuals', on Sun, 24 Apr 2005:
I can't even access that website.

Not accessible form outside the US of A, I believe.

A real pity. It appears I have misplaced the PDF file with the service
manual of my HP3466A multi-meter.

Hint!
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
There are two sides to every question, except
'What is a Moebius strip?'
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk