Watson A.Name - Watt Sun, the Dark Remover wrote:
That doesn't make sense. All the department has to do is hand over
the
manuals to the library (this _is_ in an academic emvironment!) and
let
them put the manuals in Reserve, where they can be checked out for a
very limited amount of time, say two hours, and not be taken from the
facility. The student can then peruse, or even copy them if he has a
pocketful of dimes. At least this is how we do it at the college
where
I work. Actually, the student can now buy credits on a card to put
in
the copier, so he doesn't even need coins to make copies. One can
see
this big warning sign above the copier with legalese about copyright
restrictions etc. Mostly ignored. :-P
[snip]
I agree that the value of the instrument is inherent in
the instrument itself, not the manual. But just the fact that
we're
having this conversation indicates the documentation is of value,
although of another kind. It allows me to utilize the investment
in
the instrument.
Everyone, including the legal system, should view certain types of
manuals as different than other IP. In the case of an instruction
manual, this is is directly related to the instrument, and has no
real
use or value on its own. Therefor the owner of an instrument should
have the right to own this manual, no matter where or how it was
obtained. I would go as far as to say that the instrument maker
should
be obligated to supply one to the owner upon proof of ownership, but
the
makers wouldn't want to be stuck with that responsibility.
OTOH the repair, service, maintenance manuals are another case, and
since they might reveal something about the instrument that's not
notmally available to the owner, the owner wouldn't have any right to
these manuals.
[snip]
It's been too many years -- placing the manuals on reserve in the
Engineering Department library is an obvious idea. A smart instrument
manufacturer might also allow professors to make a copy for their
personal use or to chain down in the lab, where it's most useful.
If I buy a old used car which is no longer supported by the dealer
network (like a '67 Ford Mustang), I expect a set of keys from the
seller, not Ford. I wouldn't buy a car without them. I feel the
manuals are an integral part of the whole instrument package, and I
also feel that a manual should be sold with a used/obsolete instrument
if it was originally sold with that manual. Ideally, the seller of the
obsolete instrument should provide that manual, and buy it if he
doesn't have it.
Fact is, though, most sellers of old HP instruments don't provide the
manuals. That means we've got to scrounge them up. Agilent provides a
list of suggested vendors he
http://tinyurl.com/brg64
I ran down the eight web links listed on the above page looking for the
HP 5370B manual. ManualsPlus has it for $75.00 USD. Consolidated
Surplus (which is double-linked, there are actually only seven in the
list) shows available, price not listed. W.J. Ford Surplus Enterprises
shows Not Available but e-mail to be sure (too bad -- they rent manuals
for $10/month!). The others come up blank. Also, yesterday I made a
call to another vendor I occasionally use and found that he had it,
too. He wanted more than $75 for it, though.
To be honest, I think all of these arguments about how manufacturers
should provide more manuals for old, orphaned instruments, or broadcast
them free on the internet, would hold a lot more water if there weren't
any used, legal manuals out there.
humor
If I could be permitted an analogy. Let's look at the user manual "The
Joy of Sex" by Alex Comfort. The book is not sex. You don't need the
manual to engage in sex, or to experience joy in sex. The manual has
no intrinsic use for sex on its own, unless you happen to want to know
how to use your instrument better. However, Dr. Comfort's heirs (he
passed away a few years ago, I hear) would be most unhappy to hear
that, because of these admittedly true facts, you copied the manual.
They would, however, encourage you to engage in sex to your heart's
content, even if the instrument is old, and even if it is no longer
well-"supported". As I remember (it's been about 25 years (since I
*read the book*, Rich!) ), Dr. Comfort actually recommended that. :-P
/humor
I still think a lot of this discussion comes down to whether
electronics designers (who, after all, are being paid to create
intellectual property) are just trying to skate around the necessity of
paying for somebody else's intellectual property, which has admitted
value. Otherwise, why would we be having this discussion at all?
I understand everything that's been said about this by others, and
actually agree with a lot of it. I respect these opinions, and
everyone here has good arguments. But I'm not going to change my
opinion, because it's a matter of principle and the way I do business.
My employer or customer is paying for his pleasures. Period. If it's
copyrighted, the person who's paying will get a legal copy. There are
better ways to save a few bucks. And if I buy a used and non-supported
HP instrument (like the HP3456A), I'll spend $25 more for a legal
manual, even though I could find a copy. That's one of the joys of
being in business.
If the copyright laws need to be changed (and Frith knows they do),
then let's change 'em.
Chris