....no, it's not J-Lo. I've discovered a worrying crack in the party wall
on the top floor of my new house. It's near to the outside wall, about
3ft long and 1-2mm wide. Goes at a steep diagonal starting about 6" from
the outside wall up to about 2' from the outside wall. Looking along the
outside wall, I can see that it appears to have bowed out slightly,
which is I presume the cause of the crack. The bowing appears to be
limited to the upper part of the wall.

Not sure how to proceed now. Just bought the place so I'm reluctant to
get the insurers involved as they may well decide it started with the
previous occupants and start a battle with previous insurers. Also, it's
a party wall so that could make things complicated.

What could cause this, and how would it be treated? I imagine what will
need to be done is one of those big metal X things on the outside wall
to hold it all together. Is that an expensive job, or even a DIY job?
I'm slightly tempted to plaster it up and keep an eye on it for 6
months, but that's obviously a bit risky.

Any ideas?

John

"JK" wrote
| ...no, it's not J-Lo. I've discovered a worrying crack in the party wall
| on the top floor of my new house. ...
| Not sure how to proceed now. Just bought the place so I'm reluctant to
| get the insurers involved as they may well decide it started with the
| previous occupants and start a battle with previous insurers.

Was there such a thing as a survey?

| Also, it's a party wall so that could make things complicated.
| What could cause this, and how would it be treated? I imagine what will
| need to be done is one of those big metal X things on the outside wall
| to hold it all together. Is that an expensive job, or even a DIY job?

You really need a structural engineer to report on the crack and the bowing
and monitor it. There's no point putting a bit metal X thing on the wall if
the wall isn't held together sufficiently to not fall apart, or if there
isn't anything inside to tie the outside X to. An engineer will be required
to satisfy Building Control and insurance companies.

| I'm slightly tempted to plaster it up and keep an eye on it for 6
| months, but that's obviously a bit risky

You could get some tell-tales / crack monitors from York Survey, stick them
across the gap, and photograph them every couple of weeks for six months.
The other thing you should do is to look at the wall from the neighbour's
side, and preferably put tell-tales on that side too. If the crack goes
right through the wall and is moving, that is a Bad Sign.

Owain

On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:34:46 +0100, JK wrote:

...no, it's not J-Lo. I've discovered a worrying crack in the party wall
on the top floor of my new house. It's near to the outside wall, about
3ft long and 1-2mm wide. Goes at a steep diagonal starting about 6" from
the outside wall up to about 2' from the outside wall. Looking along the
outside wall, I can see that it appears to have bowed out slightly,
which is I presume the cause of the crack. The bowing appears to be
limited to the upper part of the wall.

Not sure how to proceed now. Just bought the place so I'm reluctant to
get the insurers involved as they may well decide it started with the
previous occupants and start a battle with previous insurers. Also, it's
a party wall so that could make things complicated.

What did your surveyor say, when he reported on the house?

What could cause this, and how would it be treated? I imagine what will
need to be done is one of those big metal X things on the outside wall
to hold it all together. Is that an expensive job, or even a DIY job?

Those big metal "X" things went out in Victorian times as I understand
it.

iirc, "X" things were placed back and front of a property. A long
metal rod was passed through the entire house and a nut placed either
end. The rod was then heated ro red hot along its entire length by a
number of workmen with blowtorches, while nuts were tightened either
end. When the rod cooled it contracted, thus pulling the outer walls
inwards.

sPoniX

sPoNiX wrote:
On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:34:46 +0100, JK wrote:


...no, it's not J-Lo. I've discovered a worrying crack in the party wall
on the top floor of my new house. It's near to the outside wall, about
3ft long and 1-2mm wide. Goes at a steep diagonal starting about 6" from
the outside wall up to about 2' from the outside wall. Looking along the
outside wall, I can see that it appears to have bowed out slightly,
which is I presume the cause of the crack. The bowing appears to be
limited to the upper part of the wall.

Not sure how to proceed now. Just bought the place so I'm reluctant to
get the insurers involved as they may well decide it started with the
previous occupants and start a battle with previous insurers. Also, it's
a party wall so that could make things complicated.


What did your surveyor say, when he reported on the house?



He appears not to have noticed it. To be fair on him, I did not have a
full structural done, and the crack was well concealed behind a wardrobe.

"JK" wrote in message

sPoNiX wrote:

What did your surveyor say, when he reported on the house?

He appears not to have noticed it. To be fair on him, I did not have a
full structural done, and the crack was well concealed behind a wardrobe.

It beats me why people tie themselves up to the most outrageously
expensive time consuming status symbol they can imagine without getting
a full survey done for a few hundred quid.

Start taking evening classes in bricklaying and pin the word fool to the
bottom of your mirror.


--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

sPoNiX wrote:

Those big metal "X" things went out in Victorian times as I understand
it.

Not true - they are still the preferred method for stabilising bowing
walls. Not always X shaped, usually circles these days. We fitted a pair
earlier this year.

--
Grunff

Michael Mcneil wrote:
"JK" wrote in message


sPoNiX wrote:


What did your surveyor say, when he reported on the house?



He appears not to have noticed it. To be fair on him, I did not have a
full structural done, and the crack was well concealed behind a wardrobe.


It beats me why people tie themselves up to the most outrageously
expensive time consuming status symbol they can imagine without getting
a full survey done for a few hundred quid.

Start taking evening classes in bricklaying and pin the word fool to the
bottom of your mirror.



Remarkably helpful. Hope you feel better for that. I do feel a bit
foolish as it happens, but at the same time I do not believe a surveyor
would have seen it; my experience of them in the past has been "We were
not able to inspect blah blah due to the presence of a heavy carpet" and
so on.

Owain wrote:

"JK" wrote
| ...no, it's not J-Lo. I've discovered a worrying crack in the party wall
| on the top floor of my new house. ...
| Not sure how to proceed now. Just bought the place so I'm reluctant to
| get the insurers involved as they may well decide it started with the
| previous occupants and start a battle with previous insurers.

Was there such a thing as a survey?

Not a full one, no.


You could get some tell-tales / crack monitors from York Survey, stick them
across the gap, and photograph them every couple of weeks for six months.
The other thing you should do is to look at the wall from the neighbour's
side, and preferably put tell-tales on that side too. If the crack goes
right through the wall and is moving, that is a Bad Sign

That sounds like a good idea. Presumably one sets up a standard position
for the camera?

From what you say though, it sounds like I'm going to have to call in
the insurance company and let them deal with it.

John

In message lgate.org,
Michael Mcneil writes
It beats me why people tie themselves up to the most outrageously
expensive time consuming status symbol they can imagine without getting
a full survey done for a few hundred quid.

Or why people buy properties abroad without having any kind of survey
done and without proper independent legal advice - incredible!!

--
Richard Faulkner

In article ,
JK writes:
Michael Mcneil wrote:
"JK" wrote in message
What did your surveyor say, when he reported on the house?

He appears not to have noticed it. To be fair on him, I did not have a
full structural done, and the crack was well concealed behind a wardrobe.

It beats me why people tie themselves up to the most outrageously
expensive time consuming status symbol they can imagine without getting
a full survey done for a few hundred quid.

Start taking evening classes in bricklaying and pin the word fool to the
bottom of your mirror.

Remarkably helpful. Hope you feel better for that. I do feel a bit
foolish as it happens, but at the same time I do not believe a surveyor
would have seen it; my experience of them in the past has been "We were
not able to inspect blah blah due to the presence of a heavy carpet" and
so on.

Surveyors are useless. Even if a full-structural had been done, the survey
would just have said `we recommend you call in [insert a specialist of the
appropriate type] to investigate this further'. If, every time you look at a
house you have a full-structural done and walk away from the house as a result,
that's a bloody good way to end up homeless and poor, having paid out every
last penny to useless surveyors.

I had a full-structural survey done on the house I live in now (built in 1827,
renovated from a ruin in 1999). The surveyor (recommended by the solicitor)
got the direction in which the house faces wrong by almost 180deg, and
stated in writing that the loft insulation was 200mm deep when actually it
was entirely absent. Neither of those were actionable---it cost me less than
half the cost of the survey to insulate the loft, and it's blatantly obvious
to anyone looking at it that the house faces SSW, not NNE---but it does make
you wonder what else on the survey isn't worth the paper it's written on.
--
SAm.

On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 15:08:35 +0000 (UTC), Sam Nelson wrote:
I had a full-structural survey done on the house I live in now (built in 1827,
renovated from a ruin in 1999). The surveyor (recommended by the solicitor)
got the direction in which the house faces wrong by almost 180deg, and
stated in writing that the loft insulation was 200mm deep when actually it
was entirely absent. Neither of those were actionable---it cost me less than
half the cost of the survey to insulate the loft, and it's blatantly obvious
to anyone looking at it that the house faces SSW, not NNE---but it does make
you wonder what else on the survey isn't worth the paper it's written on.

Maybe they surveyed the well insulated house over the road :-)

Grunff wrote:
sPoNiX wrote:

Those big metal "X" things went out in Victorian times as I understand
it.


Not true - they are still the preferred method for stabilising bowing
walls. Not always X shaped, usually circles these days. We fitted a pair
earlier this year.


I've just finished reading a rather lengthy thread you started last year
about this. Your 30mm cracks make my 2mm seem a bit feeble!

I'm trying to work out, as you did, why the bowing has happened. It's
between the roof and the level of the top floor, with no signs of
movement in the two storeys below this, so I doubt subsidence. I suspect
it could be something to do with the roof, as the surveyor did spot that
the roof had a slight sag as a result of someone removing one of the
diagonal bracing timbers in the past. We were planning to get that done
as part of a loft conversion, but perhaps it has had the effect of the
roof pushing outwards on the top of the wall leading to our problem.

Anyway, general question: what would be the most sensible sequence of
getting the following people involved:

Engineer
Insurance
Neighbour (remember, its a party wall that has cracked and the bowing is
on his side too)

(Bearing in mind that we only moved in a few weeks ago, and perhaps
don't want to get the insurers involved at all).

It beats me why people tie themselves up to the most outrageously
expensive time consuming status symbol they can imagine without getting
a full survey done for a few hundred quid.

I think you mean a few thousand quid. A few hundred quid only barely gets
you a valuation.

Christian.

In message , JK writes
Anyway, general question: what would be the most sensible sequence of
getting the following people involved:

Engineer

Engineer 1st, then if it is an insurance issue, insurance, then
neighbour if necessary.

--
Richard Faulkner

On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:34:46 +0100, JK wrote:

...no, it's not J-Lo. I've discovered a worrying crack in the party wall
on the top floor of my new house. It's near to the outside wall, about
3ft long and 1-2mm wide. Goes at a steep diagonal starting about 6" from
the outside wall up to about 2' from the outside wall. Looking along the
outside wall, I can see that it appears to have bowed out slightly,
which is I presume the cause of the crack. The bowing appears to be
limited to the upper part of the wall.

Not sure how to proceed now. Just bought the place so I'm reluctant to
get the insurers involved as they may well decide it started with the
previous occupants and start a battle with previous insurers. Also, it's
a party wall so that could make things complicated.

What could cause this, and how would it be treated? I imagine what will
need to be done is one of those big metal X things on the outside wall
to hold it all together. Is that an expensive job, or even a DIY job?
I'm slightly tempted to plaster it up and keep an eye on it for 6
months, but that's obviously a bit risky.

Any ideas?


A full structural survey will not stop the building cracking.
It might have stopped you buying a normal home with small cracks in it
which is what you have.

Most buildings settle, if ground conditions are unchanged it takes about
400 years for the building to stop moving, that's the theory anyway.

If the cracks have appeared over night then it is time to start monitoring
them. If/when it gets to the point where you can put a pencil in it then
you will need some professional help.

Until then or if the crack is old, fill it, decorate and forget it.

HTH

If you had said:
In the last month a 6mm crack has opened up in this wall.
What do I do? Then you will have to contact you building insurers who will
tell you to get a foundation/soil engineers' report. They may even have
their own pet engineers to send out.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

"JK" wrote
| ... the crack was well concealed behind a wardrobe.

A cynical person like me might wonder if that concealment was intentional by
the vendor :-)

Owain

"JK" wrote
| I suspect it could be something to do with the roof, as the surveyor
| did spot that the roof had a slight sag as a result of someone
| removing one of the diagonal bracing timbers in the past.

A-ha! and Oh dear!

| We were planning to get that done as part of a loft conversion,

So you'll probably need a structural engineer to do your roof calcs anyway.

| Anyway, general question: what would be the most sensible sequence of
| getting the following people involved:
| Engineer
| Insurance
| Neighbour (remember, its a party wall that has cracked and the bowing is
| on his side too)

Neighbour then engineer (engineer will need to look at both sides of wall,
so amenable neighbour helpful).

| ... perhaps don't want to get the insurers involved at all).

Exactly. Especially not before you know what's what.

Owain

JK wrote:

I've just finished reading a rather lengthy thread you started last year
about this. Your 30mm cracks make my 2mm seem a bit feeble!

Quite.


I'm trying to work out, as you did, why the bowing has happened. It's
between the roof and the level of the top floor, with no signs of
movement in the two storeys below this, so I doubt subsidence. I suspect
it could be something to do with the roof, as the surveyor did spot that
the roof had a slight sag as a result of someone removing one of the
diagonal bracing timbers in the past. We were planning to get that done
as part of a loft conversion, but perhaps it has had the effect of the
roof pushing outwards on the top of the wall leading to our problem.

Yes, this can happen, and was one of the things my struct. engineer
checked first.


Anyway, general question: what would be the most sensible sequence of
getting the following people involved:

Engineer
Insurance
Neighbour (remember, its a party wall that has cracked and the bowing is
on his side too)

(Bearing in mind that we only moved in a few weeks ago, and perhaps
don't want to get the insurers involved at all).

Really depends. If you want an answer, get a structural engineer,
preferably a local one familiar with local house problems.


--
Grunff

I'd just ignore it if I were you. All the houses I've ever owned have
had alarming cracks, bulges etc. thats why they were so cheap. They
still have them and I made a big profit in the process. The last one
had cockroaches but I did get rid of them.
Last but one had a half collapsed roof with sagging ridge like a
saddle. Its still there just the same and uncollapsed nearly 20 years
later.
Just check at 6 month intervals to start with, then 1 year, 5 years
etc.
Start panicking if there is rapid change - sound of rumbling masonry
in the night for instance.

heers

jacob

JK wrote:
Michael Mcneil wrote:

"JK" wrote in message


sPoNiX wrote:



What did your surveyor say, when he reported on the house?




He appears not to have noticed it. To be fair on him, I did not have
a full structural done, and the crack was well concealed behind a
wardrobe.



It beats me why people tie themselves up to the most outrageously
expensive time consuming status symbol they can imagine without getting
a full survey done for a few hundred quid.

Start taking evening classes in bricklaying and pin the word fool to the
bottom of your mirror.



Remarkably helpful. Hope you feel better for that. I do feel a bit
foolish as it happens, but at the same time I do not believe a surveyor
would have seen it; my experience of them in the past has been "We were
not able to inspect blah blah due to the presence of a heavy carpet" and
so on.

Same.

I had a full structural done on my place when we bought it. The damn
thing was full of things like Didn't check roof because it was out of
reach of their ladder. Didn't chekc loft space, ladder was too short.
Didn't check floorboards because of carpet. Didn't check built-in gas
heaters because they don't do that... Didn't check plumbing... geta
plumber. Didn't check electrics. get an electrician.

Actually not sure what they did check in the end...

Grunff wrote:
JK wrote:

I've just finished reading a rather lengthy thread you started last
year about this. Your 30mm cracks make my 2mm seem a bit feeble!


Quite.


I'm trying to work out, as you did, why the bowing has happened. It's
between the roof and the level of the top floor, with no signs of
movement in the two storeys below this, so I doubt subsidence. I
suspect it could be something to do with the roof, as the surveyor did
spot that the roof had a slight sag as a result of someone removing
one of the diagonal bracing timbers in the past. We were planning to
get that done as part of a loft conversion, but perhaps it has had the
effect of the roof pushing outwards on the top of the wall leading to
our problem.


Yes, this can happen, and was one of the things my struct. engineer
checked first.


Though I'm still a bit confused; the bowing is between the rafters and
the top floor joists. Surely if it were the roof memberss pushing
outward the bowing would be from the very top of the wall, not further down.

Owain wrote:


| ... perhaps don't want to get the insurers involved at all).

Exactly. Especially not before you know what's what.


Says a lot about the insurance business that we'd rather not claim on
our insurance because the consequences will be worse than the cost of
paying ourselves.

Ed Sirett wrote:

A full structural survey will not stop the building cracking.
It might have stopped you buying a normal home with small cracks in it
which is what you have.


For complicated reasons I won't go into, it would have taken a lot to
stop us buying this place.

Most buildings settle, if ground conditions are unchanged it takes about
400 years for the building to stop moving, that's the theory anyway.

If the cracks have appeared over night then it is time to start monitoring
them. If/when it gets to the point where you can put a pencil in it then
you will need some professional help.

Until then or if the crack is old, fill it, decorate and forget it.

Wisdom here I think. The crack is not old, but it appears the bowing of
the wall is; there is a built-in wardrobe in the chimney breast alcove
where the wall is cracked. The side of this wardrobe, now I come to
look at it, is noticably thicker by about 3cm in the middle, ie it
follows the line of the wall and nicely illustrates the degree of bulge.
The built in wardrobes look about 10 years old and I suspect the bulge
is older than that. The crack though, does look recent; it is clean and
the wallpaper that has been ripped looks freshly ripped.

I think what I should do is pay for an engineer's report and ask him to
consider it in relation to the roof problem and how to sort it all out
as part of a loft conversion we will hopefully be able to afford in a
year or two.

Thanks,

John

JK typed:

You could get some tell-tales / crack monitors from York Survey,
stick them across the gap, and photograph them every couple of weeks
for six months. The other thing you should do is to look at the wall
from the neighbour's side, and preferably put tell-tales on that
side too. If the crack goes right through the wall and is moving,
that is a Bad Sign

That sounds like a good idea. Presumably one sets up a standard
position for the camera?

You can check for continuing movement by gluing a small piece of glass
(microscope glass slide is ideal), across the crack, use a large blob of
tile adhesive on the ends of the glass only.
If it breaks within a week start to worry, and call everybody
worry less as time goes by without it breaking. !

I have a crack in my loft near the chimney that's about 1ins wide.
Its got a piece of glass across it that I attached when I first bought the
house.
30 years ago still not broke.

"Sam Nelson" wrote in message
...

Surveyors are useless. Even if a full-structural had been done, the
survey
would just have said `we recommend you call in [insert a specialist of the
appropriate type] to investigate this further'. If, every time you look
at a
house you have a full-structural done and walk away from the house as a
result,
that's a bloody good way to end up homeless and poor, having paid out
every
last penny to useless surveyors.

Seems to me that a much better way forward is to get the minimum building
society valuation done by the surveyor, and then commission a separate
proper structural survey by an engineer. I did this recently; it only cost
me 211 quid on a 60K house - much cheaper than the surveyor's version - and
saved me a very expensive mistake. Doesn't catch timber/damp problems
admittedly, but the most expensive problems (subsidence etc) tend to be
structural anyway

I had a full-structural survey done on the house I live in now (built in
1827,
renovated from a ruin in 1999). The surveyor (recommended by the
solicitor)
got the direction in which the house faces wrong by almost 180deg, and
stated in writing that the loft insulation was 200mm deep when actually it
was entirely absent. Neither of those were actionable

Why on earth not? especially the insulation? I once had a valuation done
years ago (which is perhaps the key to this!) where the valuation was based
on the property being double glazed - it wasn't. A couple of letters to the
surveyor (nobody legal involved) brought forth a compensatory cheque.

David

Mark wrote:
JK typed:


You could get some tell-tales / crack monitors from York Survey,
stick them across the gap, and photograph them every couple of weeks
for six months. The other thing you should do is to look at the wall
from the neighbour's side, and preferably put tell-tales on that
side too. If the crack goes right through the wall and is moving,
that is a Bad Sign

That sounds like a good idea. Presumably one sets up a standard
position for the camera?


You can check for continuing movement by gluing a small piece of glass
(microscope glass slide is ideal), across the crack, use a large blob of
tile adhesive on the ends of the glass only.
If it breaks within a week start to worry, and call everybody
worry less as time goes by without it breaking. !

I have a crack in my loft near the chimney that's about 1ins wide.
Its got a piece of glass across it that I attached when I first bought the
house.
30 years ago still not broke.




York Survey charge 4 quid for a crack monitor with a nice graticule, but
over 8 quid for postage! Still worth it though I reckon as it would
allow detailed monitoring over time.

Owain wrote:

"JK" wrote
| ... the crack was well concealed behind a wardrobe.

A cynical person like me might wonder if that concealment was intentional by
the vendor :-)

Owain



I think anyone would! Actually though, the party wall *is* the back of
the wardrobe, so it's hidden only by hanging clothes. If one wished to
hide it, a skim of plaster and some paint would do the job, and the
bowing outside is slight enough that I doubt many surveyors would notice
it. Of course, I would never be so deceitfull.

John

"JK" wrote
| | ... the crack was well concealed behind a wardrobe.
| A cynical person like me might wonder if that concealment
| was intentional by the vendor :-)
| If one wished to hide it, a skim of plaster and some paint
| would do the job, and the bowing outside is slight enough
| that I doubt many surveyors would notice it.

Specially with a nice bit of wisteria or pelargonum (?) growing up it.

| Of course, I would never be so deceitfull.

Of course not.

Selling the property in the spring or autumn when the days are shorter, and
only being able to accommodate visiting surveyors in the twilight hours,
would help too.

Owain

Richard Faulkner wrote in message ...
In message lgate.org,
Michael Mcneil writes
It beats me why people tie themselves up to the most outrageously
expensive time consuming status symbol they can imagine without getting
a full survey done for a few hundred quid.

Or why people buy properties abroad without having any kind of survey
done and without proper independent legal advice - incredible!!

....even more so, without setting foot in said properties...

In article ,
Owain wrote:
| If one wished to hide it, a skim of plaster and some paint
| would do the job, and the bowing outside is slight enough
| that I doubt many surveyors would notice it.

Specially with a nice bit of wisteria or pelargonum (?) growing up it.

On an inside wall? Wonder what the buyer's surveyor would make of that...

--
*I'd kill for a Nobel Peace Prize *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

JK wrote in message ...
Ed Sirett wrote:

I think what I should do is pay for an engineer's report and ask him to
consider it in relation to the roof problem and how to sort it all out
as part of a loft conversion we will hopefully be able to afford in a
year or two.


If you buy a house with a fault like that and report to your insurers:

1. its pre-existing, so is uninsured
2. you now have a house with a history of struc probs, so knock a few
arms and legs off resale value
3. I dont know but insurers might possibly insist on surveying plus
repairs if they are to cover further movement
4. your insurance premiums will quadruple.
5. most insur cos wont touch you with a bargepole


NT