[John Rumm]

A tale of woe for your entertainment:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...e_rubbing_pipe



--
Cheers,

John.

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[Bill]

In message , John
Rumm writes

A tale of woe for your entertainment:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...e_rubbing_pipe



Back in about 1968 my father had central heating fitted.
It was an old house with wired fuses and lead covered wiring.
A day or so after the heating was finished the lights in the lounge
started to flicker quite alarmingly.
We all sat there and wondered why?
Eventually the fuse on the single, whole house, lighting circuit blew.
Father replaced the wire link with what ever was to hand, I recall it
was probably 30A Well it was all he had, he was a chemist, not an
electrician :-)
The lights flickered for a while and then the fuse blew again.

Ah well too much excitement for one evening so we went to bed, by candle
light.

Next morning a large damp patch on the lounge ceiling.

Ah ha, water in the lights?? Blowing a 30A bit of fuse wire??

Well yes, sort of. Plumber had slid some 1/2" copper under the upstairs
floor boards, over a length of rather old lead covered cable.

I really wish we had taken photos of the evidence, as it was the plumber
replaced the holey pipe and a friendly sparky replaced the length of
cable.

House was rewired in about 1980 and all was well until father decided to
position a picture on a wall in the hall, directly above a 3 gang light
switch. A while later he complained that he was getting a tingle off
the plaster near the switch, it was a rather damp house, even with the
central heating!
A volt stick would light any where within about 18" of the nail!!!!!!

--
Bill
( A different one )

[Brian Gaff]

Yes well, lots of stories like that about. One I know of was a caravan, long
retired had been placed into service as a workshop in a garden, and mains
electricity fitted. However constant rubbing on the underside metal frame of
the ordinary pvc insulated wire used from the house had managed to make the
live occasionally touch the metal frame of the caravan and intermittently
people were getting significant shocks from metal bits of the innards.
Eventually the fuse blew in the house and not only was this fault traced
buyt some creature had managed to nibble through the insulation in about
four places on the cable run as well. An accident waiting to happen. When I
had my sheds wired I opted for armoured cable!

Brian

--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active
"Bill" wrote in message
...
In message , John Rumm
writes

A tale of woe for your entertainment:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...e_rubbing_pipe



Back in about 1968 my father had central heating fitted.
It was an old house with wired fuses and lead covered wiring.
A day or so after the heating was finished the lights in the lounge
started to flicker quite alarmingly.
We all sat there and wondered why?
Eventually the fuse on the single, whole house, lighting circuit blew.
Father replaced the wire link with what ever was to hand, I recall it was
probably 30A Well it was all he had, he was a chemist, not an
electrician :-)
The lights flickered for a while and then the fuse blew again.

Ah well too much excitement for one evening so we went to bed, by candle
light.

Next morning a large damp patch on the lounge ceiling.

Ah ha, water in the lights?? Blowing a 30A bit of fuse wire??

Well yes, sort of. Plumber had slid some 1/2" copper under the upstairs
floor boards, over a length of rather old lead covered cable.

I really wish we had taken photos of the evidence, as it was the plumber
replaced the holey pipe and a friendly sparky replaced the length of
cable.

House was rewired in about 1980 and all was well until father decided to
position a picture on a wall in the hall, directly above a 3 gang light
switch. A while later he complained that he was getting a tingle off the
plaster near the switch, it was a rather damp house, even with the central
heating!
A volt stick would light any where within about 18" of the nail!!!!!!

--
Bill
( A different one )

[Newshound]

On 01/04/2013 23:30, John Rumm wrote:

A tale of woe for your entertainment:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...e_rubbing_pipe



Could have been thermal movements, could also have been fretting from
small amplitude vibration in the system.

Nice photos!

[Nick Odell[_2_]]

On Tue, 2 Apr 2013 00:23:07 +0100, Bill
wrote:

In message , John
Rumm writes

A tale of woe for your entertainment:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...e_rubbing_pipe



Back in about 1968 my father had central heating fitted.
It was an old house with wired fuses and lead covered wiring.
A day or so after the heating was finished the lights in the lounge
started to flicker quite alarmingly.
We all sat there and wondered why?
Eventually the fuse on the single, whole house, lighting circuit blew.
Father replaced the wire link with what ever was to hand, I recall it
was probably 30A Well it was all he had, he was a chemist, not an
electrician :-)
The lights flickered for a while and then the fuse blew again.

Ah well too much excitement for one evening so we went to bed, by candle
light.

Next morning a large damp patch on the lounge ceiling.

Ah ha, water in the lights?? Blowing a 30A bit of fuse wire??

Well yes, sort of. Plumber had slid some 1/2" copper under the upstairs
floor boards, over a length of rather old lead covered cable.

I really wish we had taken photos of the evidence, as it was the plumber
replaced the holey pipe and a friendly sparky replaced the length of
cable.

House was rewired in about 1980 and all was well until father decided to
position a picture on a wall in the hall, directly above a 3 gang light
switch. A while later he complained that he was getting a tingle off
the plaster near the switch, it was a rather damp house, even with the
central heating!
A volt stick would light any where within about 18" of the nail!!!!!!

The first house we bought needed everything doing to it. Including
replacing the wiring which looked as if it dated from before the dawn
of electricity. We were living in the house so I decided to keep using
the old circuits whilst installing the new. It was easy enough to
avoid the old circuit - especially since there was only one or fewer
sockets per room, one ceiling light, etc.

Or at least it should have been. Chasing out a channel for a wall
light with hammer and cold chisel (this was the '70s) I suddenly
revealed a black, then a red bit of rubber - thankfully no more than
that. The original installer had simply buried the single conductors
diagonally under the plaster. This -erme- slowed my installation down
a tad since I'd now only chisel in daylight with the mains turned off.

Nick

[John Rumm]

On 02/04/2013 09:45, newshound wrote:
On 01/04/2013 23:30, John Rumm wrote:

A tale of woe for your entertainment:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...e_rubbing_pipe



Could have been thermal movements, could also have been fretting from
small amplitude vibration in the system.

Pretty sure it was thermal - there is no vibration that you can feel or
hear in the system and it is a very long straight run of 22mm that is
fixed at the far end. Some form of galvanic action was also a possibility.

Looking at the scale deposit on the pipe, suggests that it had been
leaking for a while - but possibly at a rate where it evaporated before
causing any problems. It also occurred to me, that having relatively
recently fitted a scale inhibitor (phosphate doser) to house hot water
supply, that may have prevented scale from resealing the hole quite as
effectively.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

[robgraham]

On Apr 2, 4:19*pm, John Rumm wrote:
On 02/04/2013 09:45, newshound wrote:

On 01/04/2013 23:30, John Rumm wrote:

A tale of woe for your entertainment:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...e_rubbing_pipe

Could have been thermal movements, could also have been fretting from
small amplitude vibration in the system.

Pretty sure it was thermal - there is no vibration that you can feel or
hear in the system and it is a very long straight run of 22mm that is
fixed at the far end. Some form of galvanic action was also a possibility..

Looking at the scale deposit on the pipe, suggests that it had been
leaking for a while - but possibly at a rate where it evaporated before
causing any problems. It also occurred to me, that having relatively
recently fitted a scale inhibitor (phosphate doser) to house hot water
supply, that may have prevented scale from resealing the hole quite as
effectively.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| * * * * *Internode Ltd - *http://www.internode.co.uk* * * * * *|
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| * * * *John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk * * * * * * *|
\================================================= ================/

Well written story, John; I'm not sure I would have had the presence
of mind, or the will, to photo it all.. I have a very similar eaves
area in our extension section - I'm now passed the three score and
ten, and it is probably 15 years since I last crawled along it.

Your tale of woe had me trying to remember if there were any possibly
similar disaster sources along there, as equally the pipe runs are
long. I don't think there are - and am b****y well hoping my memory is
up to scratch !!

Rob

[John Rumm]

On 02/04/2013 21:54, robgraham wrote:
On Apr 2, 4:19 pm, John Rumm wrote:
On 02/04/2013 09:45, newshound wrote:

On 01/04/2013 23:30, John Rumm wrote:

A tale of woe for your entertainment:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...e_rubbing_pipe

Could have been thermal movements, could also have been fretting from
small amplitude vibration in the system.

Pretty sure it was thermal - there is no vibration that you can feel or
hear in the system and it is a very long straight run of 22mm that is
fixed at the far end. Some form of galvanic action was also a possibility.

Looking at the scale deposit on the pipe, suggests that it had been
leaking for a while - but possibly at a rate where it evaporated before
causing any problems. It also occurred to me, that having relatively
recently fitted a scale inhibitor (phosphate doser) to house hot water
supply, that may have prevented scale from resealing the hole quite as
effectively.

Well written story, John; I'm not sure I would have had the presence
of mind, or the will, to photo it all.. I have a very similar eaves

The driver for the need to photograph, was that I knew I had no other
easy way of looking at the underside of the 22mm pipe given its position
(and my phone was easier to find than a small mirror)

area in our extension section - I'm now passed the three score and
ten, and it is probably 15 years since I last crawled along it.

Your tale of woe had me trying to remember if there were any possibly
similar disaster sources along there, as equally the pipe runs are
long. I don't think there are - and am b****y well hoping my memory is
up to scratch !!

One reason for writing it up (other than "venting" on a rather less than
entertaining weekend) - prior to then I had never really given the
possibility that one pipe might saw its way through another much thought.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

[Bob Eager[_2_]]

On Wed, 03 Apr 2013 06:25:16 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

On 02/04/2013 21:54, robgraham wrote:
On Apr 2, 4:19 pm, John Rumm wrote:
On 02/04/2013 09:45, newshound wrote:

On 01/04/2013 23:30, John Rumm wrote:

A tale of woe for your entertainment:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?
title=The_tale_of_the_rubbing_pipe

Could have been thermal movements, could also have been fretting from
small amplitude vibration in the system.

Pretty sure it was thermal - there is no vibration that you can feel
or hear in the system and it is a very long straight run of 22mm that
is fixed at the far end. Some form of galvanic action was also a
possibility.

Looking at the scale deposit on the pipe, suggests that it had been
leaking for a while - but possibly at a rate where it evaporated
before causing any problems. It also occurred to me, that having
relatively recently fitted a scale inhibitor (phosphate doser) to
house hot water supply, that may have prevented scale from resealing
the hole quite as effectively.

Well written story, John; I'm not sure I would have had the presence of
mind, or the will, to photo it all.. I have a very similar eaves

The driver for the need to photograph, was that I knew I had no other
easy way of looking at the underside of the 22mm pipe given its position
(and my phone was easier to find than a small mirror)

area in our extension section - I'm now passed the three score and ten,
and it is probably 15 years since I last crawled along it.

Your tale of woe had me trying to remember if there were any possibly
similar disaster sources along there, as equally the pipe runs are
long. I don't think there are - and am b****y well hoping my memory is
up to scratch !!

One reason for writing it up (other than "venting" on a rather less than
entertaining weekend) - prior to then I had never really given the
possibility that one pipe might saw its way through another much
thought.

It happened to us, although rather less catastrophically. The CH pipes
were fitted a few years before we moved in, and there were two packed
closely together in a notched joist under the landing. Nothing in between
them. Minute movements as people walked down the landing eventually
caused a pinhole - it must have taken 15 years.

We noticed the water dripping out of the celing fitting in the hall.



--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
My posts (including this one) are my copyright and if @diy_forums on
Twitter wish to tweet them they can pay me £30 a post
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

[ARW]

robgraham wrote:
On Apr 2, 4:19 pm, John Rumm wrote:
On 02/04/2013 09:45, newshound wrote:

On 01/04/2013 23:30, John Rumm wrote:

A tale of woe for your entertainment:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...e_rubbing_pipe

Could have been thermal movements, could also have been fretting
from small amplitude vibration in the system.

Pretty sure it was thermal - there is no vibration that you can
feel or hear in the system and it is a very long straight run of
22mm that is fixed at the far end. Some form of galvanic action was
also a possibility.

Looking at the scale deposit on the pipe, suggests that it had been
leaking for a while - but possibly at a rate where it evaporated
before causing any problems. It also occurred to me, that having
relatively recently fitted a scale inhibitor (phosphate doser) to
house hot water supply, that may have prevented scale from
resealing the hole quite as effectively.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
-----------------------------------------------------------------|
John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Well written story, John; I'm not sure I would have had the presence
of mind, or the will, to photo it all..

A photo of John fixing it is missing:-)

--
Adam

[John Rumm]

On 05/04/2013 19:55, ARW wrote:
robgraham wrote:

Well written story, John; I'm not sure I would have had the presence
of mind, or the will, to photo it all..

A photo of John fixing it is missing:-)

Always safest behind the camera ;-)



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

[Lobster]

On 03/04/2013 06:25, John Rumm wrote:
On 02/04/2013 21:54, robgraham wrote:
On Apr 2, 4:19 pm, John Rumm wrote:
On 02/04/2013 09:45, newshound wrote:

On 01/04/2013 23:30, John Rumm wrote:

A tale of woe for your entertainment:

I feel your pain.

One reason for writing it up (other than "venting" on a rather less than
entertaining weekend) - prior to then I had never really given the
possibility that one pipe might saw its way through another much thought.

Could it have been down to different grades of not 100% copper in the
pipes - ie the harder one cutting through the softer?

--
David

[John Rumm]

On 06/04/2013 09:53, Lobster wrote:
On 03/04/2013 06:25, John Rumm wrote:
On 02/04/2013 21:54, robgraham wrote:
On Apr 2, 4:19 pm, John Rumm wrote:
On 02/04/2013 09:45, newshound wrote:

On 01/04/2013 23:30, John Rumm wrote:

A tale of woe for your entertainment:

I feel your pain.

One reason for writing it up (other than "venting" on a rather less than
entertaining weekend) - prior to then I had never really given the
possibility that one pipe might saw its way through another much thought.

Could it have been down to different grades of not 100% copper in the
pipes - ie the harder one cutting through the softer?

That is also possible... the 15mm pipe is probably older and seems to
have a thick wall, so it might be fully annealed rather than half hard.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

[Andrew Gabriel]

In article ,
John Rumm writes:
One reason for writing it up (other than "venting" on a rather less than
entertaining weekend) - prior to then I had never really given the
possibility that one pipe might saw its way through another much thought.

Very common with refrigeration systems.
Vibration from the compressor is the source of the movement.

Doesn't need to be pipe-to-pipe - pipe rubbing against anything hard
can do it, even a bit of loose grit over time.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

[Onetap]

On Monday, April 1, 2013 11:30:37 PM UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
A tale of woe for your entertainment:

Interesting story, thanks for posting it.

Have you replaced the worn section of the 22mm pipe? ;-)

[John Rumm]

On 06/04/2013 17:33, Onetap wrote:
On Monday, April 1, 2013 11:30:37 PM UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
A tale of woe for your entertainment:

Interesting story, thanks for posting it.

Have you replaced the worn section of the 22mm pipe? ;-)

No, I photographed and felt the underside of it, and also could not feel
any deformation or indentation (the smaller pipe you can seen and
clearly feel a dished section in it). The 22mm pipe is also part of a
sealed heating system, so it is limited in how much it could leak!


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/