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Attaching 2x4 to cinder block wall



 
 
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  #1  
Old August 23rd 11, 04:29 PM posted to alt.home.repair
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Posts: 223
Default Attaching 2x4 to cinder block wall

I am looking for suggestions on how to attach a 2x4 to a cinder block wall.

Here is the scenario. The 2x4 will be running horizontally on the interior
of a basement wall below the ground level. It will be attached flat to the
wall similar to a ledger board. The wall is made of cinder block (not
cement block I assume because the property was built in 1948). The basement
was completely gutted down to the exterior walls and all new walls were
framed out with 2x4's for a complete remodel of a basement level apartment.
All of the exterior walls were framed out with 2x4's with the studs about
1/4-inch away from the wall and secured at the top and bottom with top
plates and bottom plates.

However, about 15 feet of one exterior wall has a 4-inch PVC sewer line
running along the bottom of the wall about 6 inches above the floor level.
So, the wall above that sewer line cannot be attached to a bottom plate
along the floor because the sewer line is in the way.

What I want to do is run that wall down to a wood "bottom plate" that is
actually attached to the wall instead of to the floor. To do that, I want
to attach a horizontal 2x4 flat to the cinder block wall with anchor bolts
of some sort. Then nail a second 2x4 on top of that to create the new
"bottom plate" for the wall above the sewer line.

Since the 2x4 will be attached to the wall below the outside ground level, I
was thinking of using some type of rubber or similar strip to try to isolate
the wood from making direct contact with the cinder block to avoid moisture
and termite problems. And, maybe I would use pressure treated wood for that
one 2x4 -- but I'm not sure about that idea.

So, one question I have is what to use between the wood and the wall --
rubber, tar paper, or what?

And, the second question is how to attach the first horizontal 2x4 to the
wall. I know there are different types of anchors that could be used. One
possibility would be anchors that go through the cinder block where the
hollow part is and anchor from the back. Another possibility would be
anchors that just get drilled into the cinder block but make sure that they
go in where the block is solid all the way through.

Any suggestions or ideas would be appreciated -- especially regarding what
type of anchors to buy and use to secure the 2x4 to the wall.

Thanks.


Ads
  #2  
Old August 23rd 11, 05:16 PM posted to alt.home.repair
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Posts: 3,154
Default Attaching 2x4 to cinder block wall

RogerT wrote:
I am looking for suggestions on how to attach a 2x4 to a cinder block
wall.
Here is the scenario. The 2x4 will be running horizontally on the
interior of a basement wall below the ground level. It will be
attached flat to the wall similar to a ledger board. The wall is
made of cinder block (not cement block I assume because the property
was built in 1948). The basement was completely gutted down to the
exterior walls and all new walls were framed out with 2x4's for a
complete remodel of a basement level apartment. All of the exterior
walls were framed out with 2x4's with the studs about 1/4-inch away
from the wall and secured at the top and bottom with top plates and
bottom plates.
However, about 15 feet of one exterior wall has a 4-inch PVC sewer
line running along the bottom of the wall about 6 inches above the
floor level. So, the wall above that sewer line cannot be attached to
a bottom plate along the floor because the sewer line is in the way.

What I want to do is run that wall down to a wood "bottom plate" that
is actually attached to the wall instead of to the floor. To do
that, I want to attach a horizontal 2x4 flat to the cinder block wall
with anchor bolts of some sort. Then nail a second 2x4 on top of
that to create the new "bottom plate" for the wall above the sewer
line.
Since the 2x4 will be attached to the wall below the outside ground
level, I was thinking of using some type of rubber or similar strip
to try to isolate the wood from making direct contact with the cinder
block to avoid moisture and termite problems. And, maybe I would use
pressure treated wood for that one 2x4 -- but I'm not sure about that
idea.
So, one question I have is what to use between the wood and the wall
-- rubber, tar paper, or what?


I'd use pressure treated and tar paper.
_______________________

And, the second question is how to attach the first horizontal 2x4 to
the wall.


Tapcon screws
Any of the various proprietary ,expanding types; eg, Hilti
Lead anchors
Toggle bolts (in core area, not web)

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&cp=14&g...iw=936&bih=573

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico



  #3  
Old August 23rd 11, 05:17 PM posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 290
Default Attaching 2x4 to cinder block wall

In article , "RogerT" wrote:
I am looking for suggestions on how to attach a 2x4 to a cinder block wall.


Use Tapcons.

[...]

Since the 2x4 will be attached to the wall below the outside ground level, I
was thinking of using some type of rubber or similar strip to try to isolate
the wood from making direct contact with the cinder block to avoid moisture
and termite problems. And, maybe I would use pressure treated wood for that
one 2x4 -- but I'm not sure about that idea.


Why not? This seems like an ideal application for treated wood.

So, one question I have is what to use between the wood and the wall --
rubber, tar paper, or what?


Nothing. If the basement is dry, you don't need anything like that. If it's
not dry, then you should fix your moisture problems first.

And, the second question is how to attach the first horizontal 2x4 to the
wall.


Tapcons, as noted above.
  #4  
Old August 23rd 11, 07:11 PM posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,117
Default Attaching 2x4 to cinder block wall

On Aug 23, 10:29*am, "RogerT" wrote:
I am looking for suggestions on how to attach a 2x4 to a cinder block wall.

Here is the scenario. *The 2x4 will be running horizontally on the interior
of a basement wall below the ground level. *It will be attached flat to the
wall similar to a ledger board. *The wall is made of cinder block (not
cement block I assume because the property was built in 1948). *The basement
was completely gutted down to the exterior walls and all new walls were
framed out with 2x4's for a complete remodel of *a basement level apartment.
All of the exterior walls were framed out with 2x4's with the studs about
1/4-inch away from the wall and secured at the top and bottom with top
plates and bottom plates.

However, about 15 feet of one exterior wall has a 4-inch PVC sewer line
running along the bottom of the wall about 6 inches above the floor level..
So, the wall above that sewer line cannot be attached to a bottom plate
along the floor because the sewer line is in the way.

What I want to do is run that wall down to a wood "bottom plate" that is
actually attached to the wall instead of to the floor. *To do that, I want
to attach a horizontal 2x4 flat to the cinder block wall with anchor bolts
of some sort. *Then nail a second 2x4 on top of that to create the new
"bottom plate" for the wall above the sewer line.

Since the 2x4 will be attached to the wall below the outside ground level, I
was thinking of using some type of rubber or similar strip to try to isolate
the wood from making direct contact with the cinder block to avoid moisture
and termite problems. *And, maybe I would use pressure treated wood for that
one 2x4 -- but I'm not sure about that idea.

So, one question I have is what to use between the wood and the wall -- *
rubber, tar paper, or what?

And, the second question is how to attach the first horizontal 2x4 to the
wall. *I know there are different types of anchors that could be used. *One
possibility would be anchors that go through the cinder block where the
hollow part is and anchor from the back. *Another possibility would be
anchors that just get drilled into the cinder block but make sure that they
go in where the block is solid all the way through.

Any suggestions or ideas would be appreciated -- especially regarding what
type of anchors to buy and use to secure the 2x4 to the wall.

Thanks.


Why are you needlessly making building this wall more complicated than
it
needs to be ?

Box in the sewer pipe by constructing the wall where it can run from
floor to
ceiling unobstructed... The tenants in this basement unit are not
going to
like having an exposed pipe with a wall built cantilevered out above
it...

All sorts of lovely stuff will accumulate behind such a pipe,
spiderwebs,
dust bunnies, clumps of hair that build up, the errant sock that gets
lost, etc...
Not to mention that the sound of water isn't so relaxing when you know
it
is sewage in the pipe...

Just build an unbroken wall that has access panels located wherever
there are clean outs in the sewer line or a fitting that turns a
corner
where the pipe changes directions... You don't need access to the
entire pipe all of the time, if you have a repair that needs to happen
in the future then you would cut the sheet rock away to access
the pipe... By building a proper unbroken wall, you will be able to
properly insulate the entire wall both against the chill of the
outside
wall as well as the sound of the water flowing in the sewage pipe...

Any other solution is just a folly...

~~ Evan
  #5  
Old August 23rd 11, 07:39 PM posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 627
Default Attaching 2x4 to cinder block wall

On Aug 23, 1:11*pm, Evan wrote:
Why are you needlessly making building this wall more complicated than
it needs to be ?


That seems to be a recurring theme on this usenet group... I
understand that not everyone knows how to do everything, but when
someone doesn't know how to approach a project, why do they always
devise the most cockamaime plans?

If you don't know how to do something ASK HOW TO DO IT. Don't present
your 50-step plan that involves hanging a wall from another wall by
cantilevering it off the edge of a 2x4. You're fixing a house, not
building a replacement for the space shuttle.

When things get that complicated, that's a HUGE RED FLAG telling you
to STOP, and seek professional help. Home improvements are NEVER that
complicated.

Cantilevering the wall just isn't going to work. It's going to sag
over time as the nails pull out. Plus as you said, the sewer pipe is
left exposed.

The bottom plate needs to be fully supported, and the sewer pipe needs
to be covered.

Simple solutions are best: As you said, bring the wall 6" into the
room and build it properly, floor-to-ceiling. You lose 6" of room, but
the job is done properly, and it will last. Get creative and build
alcoves into the wall to make use of the "wasted" space... Book
shelves, or an entertainment center.

The next-best solution is to build a platform around the sewer pipe,
then build your wall in the original location off that platform. Still
a lot simpler than trying to engineer a cantilevered wall that nobody
has ever done before.
  #6  
Old August 24th 11, 12:07 AM posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,579
Default Attaching 2x4 to cinder block wall

wrote:
On Aug 23, 1:11 pm, Evan wrote:
Why are you needlessly making building this wall more complicated
than it needs to be ?


That seems to be a recurring theme on this usenet group... I
understand that not everyone knows how to do everything, but when
someone doesn't know how to approach a project, why do they always
devise the most cockamaime plans?

If you don't know how to do something ASK HOW TO DO IT. Don't present
your 50-step plan that involves hanging a wall from another wall by
cantilevering it off the edge of a 2x4. You're fixing a house, not
building a replacement for the space shuttle.

When things get that complicated, that's a HUGE RED FLAG telling you
to STOP, and seek professional help. Home improvements are NEVER that
complicated.

Cantilevering the wall just isn't going to work. It's going to sag
over time as the nails pull out. Plus as you said, the sewer pipe is
left exposed.

The bottom plate needs to be fully supported, and the sewer pipe needs
to be covered.

Simple solutions are best: As you said, bring the wall 6" into the
room and build it properly, floor-to-ceiling. You lose 6" of room, but
the job is done properly, and it will last. Get creative and build
alcoves into the wall to make use of the "wasted" space... Book
shelves, or an entertainment center.

The next-best solution is to build a platform around the sewer pipe,
then build your wall in the original location off that platform. Still
a lot simpler than trying to engineer a cantilevered wall that nobody
has ever done before.


Exactly. I think it was Ronald Reagan who said: "Those who think there are
not simple solutions to complex problems just haven't tried hard enough."

Or maybe it was Dom Deluise. I forget.


  #7  
Old August 24th 11, 12:44 AM posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,869
Default Attaching 2x4 to cinder block wall

"RogerT" wrote:
I am looking for suggestions on how to attach a 2x4 to a cinder block wall.

Here is the scenario. The 2x4 will be running horizontally on the interior
of a basement wall below the ground level. It will be attached flat to the
wall similar to a ledger board. The wall is made of cinder block (not
cement block I assume because the property was built in 1948). The basement
was completely gutted down to the exterior walls and all new walls were
framed out with 2x4's for a complete remodel of a basement level apartment.
All of the exterior walls were framed out with 2x4's with the studs about
1/4-inch away from the wall and secured at the top and bottom with top
plates and bottom plates.

However, about 15 feet of one exterior wall has a 4-inch PVC sewer line
running along the bottom of the wall about 6 inches above the floor level.
So, the wall above that sewer line cannot be attached to a bottom plate
along the floor because the sewer line is in the way.

What I want to do is run that wall down to a wood "bottom plate" that is
actually attached to the wall instead of to the floor. To do that, I want
to attach a horizontal 2x4 flat to the cinder block wall with anchor bolts
of some sort. Then nail a second 2x4 on top of that to create the new
"bottom plate" for the wall above the sewer line.

Since the 2x4 will be attached to the wall below the outside ground level, I
was thinking of using some type of rubber or similar strip to try to isolate
the wood from making direct contact with the cinder block to avoid moisture
and termite problems. And, maybe I would use pressure treated wood for that
one 2x4 -- but I'm not sure about that idea.

So, one question I have is what to use between the wood and the wall --
rubber, tar paper, or what?

And, the second question is how to attach the first horizontal 2x4 to the
wall. I know there are different types of anchors that could be used. One
possibility would be anchors that go through the cinder block where the
hollow part is and anchor from the back. Another possibility would be
anchors that just get drilled into the cinder block but make sure that they
go in where the block is solid all the way through.

Any suggestions or ideas would be appreciated -- especially regarding what
type of anchors to buy and use to secure the 2x4 to the wall.

Thanks.


The same foam they use on top of the cement or cinder block. It's usually
pink. It's also good to put it under the wood attached to floor. It's code
here to use pressure treated, but only on Holmes on homes, do they always
use a polyethylene foam moisture break.

That's prevents using polyurethane glue as extra strength against the wall,
but unless the wood is thoroughly dried, it's not going to stick anyway. I
thick your stuck with either toggle bolts, which can rust, or some epoxy
based holding devices.

Greg
  #8  
Old August 24th 11, 02:05 AM posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,158
Default Attaching 2x4 to cinder block wall

On 8/23/2011 10:29 AM, RogerT wrote:
I am looking for suggestions on how to attach a 2x4 to a cinder block wall.

Here is the scenario. The 2x4 will be running horizontally on the interior
of a basement wall below the ground level. It will be attached flat to the
wall similar to a ledger board. The wall is made of cinder block (not
cement block I assume because the property was built in 1948). The basement
was completely gutted down to the exterior walls and all new walls were
framed out with 2x4's for a complete remodel of a basement level apartment.
All of the exterior walls were framed out with 2x4's with the studs about
1/4-inch away from the wall and secured at the top and bottom with top
plates and bottom plates.

However, about 15 feet of one exterior wall has a 4-inch PVC sewer line
running along the bottom of the wall about 6 inches above the floor level.
So, the wall above that sewer line cannot be attached to a bottom plate
along the floor because the sewer line is in the way.

What I want to do is run that wall down to a wood "bottom plate" that is
actually attached to the wall instead of to the floor. To do that, I want
to attach a horizontal 2x4 flat to the cinder block wall with anchor bolts
of some sort. Then nail a second 2x4 on top of that to create the new
"bottom plate" for the wall above the sewer line.

Since the 2x4 will be attached to the wall below the outside ground level, I
was thinking of using some type of rubber or similar strip to try to isolate
the wood from making direct contact with the cinder block to avoid moisture
and termite problems. And, maybe I would use pressure treated wood for that
one 2x4 -- but I'm not sure about that idea.

So, one question I have is what to use between the wood and the wall --
rubber, tar paper, or what?

And, the second question is how to attach the first horizontal 2x4 to the
wall. I know there are different types of anchors that could be used. One
possibility would be anchors that go through the cinder block where the
hollow part is and anchor from the back. Another possibility would be
anchors that just get drilled into the cinder block but make sure that they
go in where the block is solid all the way through.

Any suggestions or ideas would be appreciated -- especially regarding what
type of anchors to buy and use to secure the 2x4 to the wall.

Thanks.



I'd give up the 6-8 inches of room space, and move the wall in. You can
always do flush bookcases into the dead space if you want to jazz up the
apartment. I'd also band the bottom of the wall with a wide trim plate
that can be removed to get to the pipe when needed, without major demo
work. Old cinderblock or concrete block walls are risky to mess with-
the mortar between them loves to let go without warning, when any
strange forces (like a hammer drill) are applied.

--
aem sends...
  #9  
Old August 24th 11, 04:39 AM posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,053
Default Attaching 2x4 to cinder block wall

On Aug 23, 8:17*am, (Doug Miller)
wrote:
In article , "RogerT" wrote:
I am looking for suggestions on how to attach a 2x4 to a cinder block wall.


Use Tapcons.

[...]



Since the 2x4 will be attached to the wall below the outside ground level, I
was thinking of using some type of rubber or similar strip to try to isolate
the wood from making direct contact with the cinder block to avoid moisture
and termite problems. *And, maybe I would use pressure treated wood for that
one 2x4 -- but I'm not sure about that idea.


Why not? This seems like an ideal application for treated wood.



So, one question I have is what to use between the wood and the wall -- *
rubber, tar paper, or what?


Nothing. If the basement is dry, you don't need anything like that. If it's
not dry, then you should fix your moisture problems first.



And, the second question is how to attach the first horizontal 2x4 to the
wall.


Tapcons, as noted above.


Treated wood is not 'rot proof' it _will_ rot, just takes longer. Do
something to keep the moistur away from the wood.

Harry K
  #10  
Old August 24th 11, 04:45 AM posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,053
Default Attaching 2x4 to cinder block wall

On Aug 23, 10:39*am, wrote:
On Aug 23, 1:11*pm, Evan wrote:

Why are you needlessly making building this wall more complicated than
it needs to be ?


That seems to be a recurring theme on this usenet group... I
understand that not everyone knows how to do everything, but when
someone doesn't know how to approach a project, why do they always
devise the most cockamaime plans?

If you don't know how to do something ASK HOW TO DO IT. Don't present
your 50-step plan that involves hanging a wall from another wall by
cantilevering it off the edge of a 2x4. You're fixing a house, not
building a replacement for the space shuttle.

When things get that complicated, that's a HUGE RED FLAG telling you
to STOP, and seek professional help. Home improvements are NEVER that
complicated.

Cantilevering the wall just isn't going to work. It's going to sag
over time as the nails pull out. Plus as you said, the sewer pipe is
left exposed.

The bottom plate needs to be fully supported, and the sewer pipe needs
to be covered.

Simple solutions are best: As you said, bring the wall 6" into the
room and build it properly, floor-to-ceiling. You lose 6" of room, but
the job is done properly, and it will last. Get creative and build
alcoves into the wall to make use of the "wasted" space... Book
shelves, or an entertainment center.

The next-best solution is to build a platform around the sewer pipe,
then build your wall in the original location off that platform. Still
a lot simpler than trying to engineer a cantilevered wall that nobody
has ever done before.


Errm...unless the wall was built with 2x4 on the "flat" it will take
8" or more (depends on the actual outsid diameter of the pipe) of room
space. Shouldn't be a deal breaker though. It will only be 4" more
than what he is planning anyhow.

Harry K
 




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