Oh great and all-knowing men among men, wordy, worldly and wise. Please
bestow upon me your deep knowledge, your passing proficiency, sense of
the common and not so much common. I humbly ask for guidance...

A friend, really my wife's manager, has a cabin, in the woods, near St.
Helens. No electricity and runs the cabin off a Honda generator hooked
up to 4 auto-style batteries, on a plywood shelf, connected in series.
The generator, below the plywood shelf, is run through an inverter to
charge the batteries - when they're full, the generator is turned off,
switches are switched and the needed electric comes from the batteries.

Problem is that the batteries, on the plywood shelf, don't seem to hold
a charge as they did a couple years ago when he bought the cabin, in the
woods. His father-in-law, uncle, neighbor, or grocery checkout clerk
told him that one battery might be dead and sucking the juice from the
others.

Last summer when he loaned us the cabin, in the woods near St. Helens, I
checked and filled the cells with distilled water, and cleaned and
tightened all cable connections. Seemed as though we were still running
the generator, under the plywood shelf, a lot - considering that
practically all of the house is run off propane except for a TV/VCR and
a few lights which are religiously turned off when not needed.

We're headed up there for a week and the friend asked my wife if I might
know how to check the batteries on the plywood shelf. Bless her heart,
she said that I would indeed, probably, know how to test the batteries
on the plywood shelf. Having a digital multi-tester at the ready, I am
turning to you for guidance and awaiting further instruction.

How to test for a faulty battery?
What type of replacement battery would be best for this use?
What winterizing steps to help ensure long battery life?

Thank you, oh wordy, worldly and wise ones.

--
Owen Lowe
The Fly-by-Night Copper Company
____

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the
Corporate States of America and to the
Republicans for which it stands, one nation,
under debt, easily divisible, with liberty
and justice for oil."
- Wiley Miller, Non Sequitur, 1/24/05

"David D" crumbl @ gmail.com wrote in message
...
"Fly-by-Night CC" wrote in message
news
Oh great and all-knowing men among men, wordy, worldly and wise

Well, that lets me out, but ...

How to test for a faulty battery?
What type of replacement battery would be best for this use?
What winterizing steps to help ensure long battery life?


Owen, are you sure this isn't a troll????? However . . .

Buy a battery hydrometer, check the cells for specific gravity. This is the
best way, other than having a "resistor pile" to load test each battery. You
say series connection, so you're using 48VDC to power the cabin, right?
Possible to have a bad cell or two hindering things. Are you sure you don't
mean they charge the batteries with generator, then the batteries run
through an inverter to supply 110VAC for the cabin?

With your digital meter, you can come close by putting one lead on a post,
then put a piece of wire on the other lead, remove the caps and dip the wire
in the acid in the cell. Just far enough in to get the voltage, don't touch
the plates! Voltage should progressively increase 2VDC with each progressive
cell. Find one that doesn't, it's a bad cell.

Replacement? I would suggest a marine style "deep cycle", as they can take
being drained very low & recharged better than a regular auto type.

Winterizing, make sure they are fully charged and cover them any time the
cabin won't be in use for a while.

--
Nahmie
Those on the cutting edge bleed a lot.

Yep, the Harbor Freight battery tester is a good thiing to have anyway. It
contains a big resistor to apply a test load. It doesn't tell the whole
story, but is a good start to find the bad ones.

Making the voltage readings, even across each battery, after they are half
or so run down will tell you more about which is the weakest.

My guess is that they are all in fairly bad shape and you'll end up buying a
new set. Considering the cost of a vacation home, $250-300 probably isn't a
big deal. Maybe some of the guests could pitch in on them.

I'd probably just buy the best marine battery WalMart has. Otherwise you
are into special stuff and doing some research.

Care is important. It's a good idea to run them down pretty far
occasionally...keeps them in more uniform condition. Also leave them fully
charged when not in use.

Wally gives a good guarantee, especially on their best batteries, so keep
the paperwork.
I've actually received free replacements during the initial guarantee
period. They didn't even check the old ones!

Wilson
"Norman D. Crow" wrote in message
...




"David D" crumbl @ gmail.com wrote in message
...
"Fly-by-Night CC" wrote in message
news
Oh great and all-knowing men among men, wordy, worldly and wise

Well, that lets me out, but ...

How to test for a faulty battery?
What type of replacement battery would be best for this use?
What winterizing steps to help ensure long battery life?


Owen, are you sure this isn't a troll????? However . . .

Buy a battery hydrometer, check the cells for specific gravity. This is
the
best way, other than having a "resistor pile" to load test each battery.
You
say series connection, so you're using 48VDC to power the cabin, right?
Possible to have a bad cell or two hindering things. Are you sure you
don't
mean they charge the batteries with generator, then the batteries run
through an inverter to supply 110VAC for the cabin?

With your digital meter, you can come close by putting one lead on a post,
then put a piece of wire on the other lead, remove the caps and dip the
wire
in the acid in the cell. Just far enough in to get the voltage, don't
touch
the plates! Voltage should progressively increase 2VDC with each
progressive
cell. Find one that doesn't, it's a bad cell.

Replacement? I would suggest a marine style "deep cycle", as they can take
being drained very low & recharged better than a regular auto type.

Winterizing, make sure they are fully charged and cover them any time the
cabin won't be in use for a while.

--
Nahmie
Those on the cutting edge bleed a lot.

"Fly-by-Night CC" wrote in message
news
Snip


Problem is that the batteries, on the plywood shelf, don't seem to hold
a charge as they did a couple years ago when he bought the cabin, in the
woods. His father-in-law, uncle, neighbor, or grocery checkout clerk
told him that one battery might be dead and sucking the juice from the
others.

1. It does not matter if a modern battery sits on plywood or concrete.
Modern batteries have plastic cases and this works much better than the wood
and tar batteries of years ago that would discharge on a concrete surface.
2. If a battery does have a shorted out cell it can discharge itself and
those connected to it rather quickly.


We're headed up there for a week and the friend asked my wife if I might
know how to check the batteries on the plywood shelf. Bless her heart,
she said that I would indeed, probably, know how to test the batteries
on the plywood shelf. Having a digital multi-tester at the ready, I am
turning to you for guidance and awaiting further instruction.

If you can check the cells individually, use a battery hydeoneter to look
for consistancy in each cell. A reading that is far higher or lower will
indicate a bad battery. Low readings on all cells ususlly only indicate a
discharged battery. If you have a volt meter you should have 2.2 bolts per
cell when the battery is fully charged and has a surface charge from not
being used at immediatley after full recharge. After putting a load on the
batteries for 10 minutes or so this surface charge should be gone and the
battery voltage reading should be that of the battery spec. If the battery
shows below 11 volts you probably have a shorted out cell. Be sure to check
batteries individually and disconected from the others. Also, these
batteries should be of the marine/motor home variety. If you are using
regular automotive batteries they will fail in a short period of time.
Automotive batteries are designed to give out lots of energy in short bursts
and not be run down to a dead state. OTOH marine/motor home batteries are
designed to provide a consistant LOW demand and can be safely run down to
total didcharge with out harm to the battery. Typically these batteries
have caps for maintence on each cell although this is not a guarantee that
it is a marine/hotor home style battery.


How to test for a faulty battery?
What type of replacement battery would be best for this use?

Marine/motor home style. Do not mix with automotive style batteries.

What winterizing steps to help ensure long battery life?

Do not let them freeze and keep them DRY and charged with a trickle charger.

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 23:18:41 -0800, the inscrutable Fly-by-Night CC
spake:

Oh great and all-knowing men among men, wordy, worldly and wise. Please
bestow upon me your deep knowledge, your passing proficiency, sense of
the common and not so much common. I humbly ask for guidance...

A friend, really my wife's manager, has a cabin, in the woods, near St.
Helens. No electricity and runs the cabin off a Honda generator hooked
up to 4 auto-style batteries, on a plywood shelf, connected in series.
The generator, below the plywood shelf, is run through an inverter to
charge the batteries - when they're full, the generator is turned off,
switches are switched and the needed electric comes from the batteries.

Problem is that the batteries, on the plywood shelf, don't seem to hold
a charge as they did a couple years ago when he bought the cabin, in the
woods. His father-in-law, uncle, neighbor, or grocery checkout clerk
told him that one battery might be dead and sucking the juice from the
others.

Batteries wear out. Chances are very high that they all need
replacement. Check the solar electric stores for tips.


Last summer when he loaned us the cabin, in the woods near St. Helens, I
checked and filled the cells with distilled water, and cleaned and
tightened all cable connections. Seemed as though we were still running
the generator, under the plywood shelf, a lot - considering that
practically all of the house is run off propane except for a TV/VCR and
a few lights which are religiously turned off when not needed.

We're headed up there for a week and the friend asked my wife if I might
know how to check the batteries on the plywood shelf. Bless her heart,
she said that I would indeed, probably, know how to test the batteries
on the plywood shelf. Having a digital multi-tester at the ready, I am
turning to you for guidance and awaiting further instruction.

Ain't gonna cut it. Take a hydrometer to check the individual cells
after charging. That might show you a bad cell, ruling out a battery
right away.


How to test for a faulty battery?

Carefully. (Sorry, couldn't resist.)

You'll need to charge the batteries with the generator then test them
with a load tester, Owie. Got a friend at a gas station (or slight
chance: rental yard) where you can borrow one? If the batteries are
more than 4 years old, don't worry about going to all that trouble
Just have them replace them. When I was researching solar a few years
ago (just after moving up here; off-grid folks go through batteries
like terlit papah), I read up a bit on batteries. Newer styles last
anywhere from 4 to 10 years, max, depending upon the percentage of
discharge each time. The higher the discharge rate and lower the
discharge level before recharging, the quicker they die. I'm betting
that those batteries are worn out in that environment.

David's William Darden link has good info. Here are mo

http://www.affordable-solar.com/howtokeyobaf.html
http://www.homepower.com/ magazine articles, check your lib
(Wow, half my bookmarks are dead already!)


What type of replacement battery would be best for this use?

Marine/solar deep-cycle @ $100-200 a pop.


What winterizing steps to help ensure long battery life?

House them in a warmer environment, like a basement. Keep them
charged even when the owners are not there. (solar trickle)


Thank you, oh wordy, worldly and wise ones.

Thanks are unnecessary. Send mass quantities of cash instead.


--
EAT SOYLENT McD!
----------------------
http://diversify.com People-free Websites

Here's another good source of info, Owie.

http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Bat...of%20Batteries


--
EAT SOYLENT McD!
----------------------
http://diversify.com People-free Websites

What winterizing steps to help ensure long battery life?

Do not let them freeze and keep them DRY and charged with a trickle charger.

Oops, I was tempted to suggest a trickle charger as well. The only way
that will work is to remove these batteries from the cabin and take
them to a location where full-time power is available. If the
generator isn't running, there's no power in the cabin.

Try to find a friend in the area of the cabin who will keep these
units warm, dry and charged so hauling them back and forth to your
home is not required.

"Fly-by-Night CC" wrote in message
news
Oh great and all-knowing men among men, wordy, worldly and wise. Please
bestow upon me your deep knowledge, your passing proficiency, sense of
the common and not so much common. I humbly ask for guidance...

snip
How to test for a faulty battery?
What type of replacement battery would be best for this use?
What winterizing steps to help ensure long battery life?

Thank you, oh wordy, worldly and wise ones.

You might post this to alt.energy.homepower or google for it. I remember
lots of battery maintenance posts, just not the specifics.

Enjoy

Andrew V

On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 13:14:33 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:

[snip]

2. If a battery does have a shorted out cell it can discharge itself and
those connected to it rather quickly.

Really? How?


We're headed up there for a week and the friend asked my wife if I might
know how to check the batteries on the plywood shelf. Bless her heart,
she said that I would indeed, probably, know how to test the batteries
on the plywood shelf. Having a digital multi-tester at the ready, I am
turning to you for guidance and awaiting further instruction.

If you can check the cells individually, use a battery hydeoneter to look
for consistancy in each cell. A reading that is far higher or lower will
indicate a bad battery. Low readings on all cells ususlly only indicate a
discharged battery. If you have a volt meter you should have 2.2 bolts per
cell when the battery is fully charged and has a surface charge from not
being used at immediatley after full recharge. After putting a load on the
batteries for 10 minutes or so this surface charge should be gone and the
battery voltage reading should be that of the battery spec.

Actually to acertain charge condition, the battery should remain
unloaded for 24 hours before measuring the voltage.

This is a topic that's been beaten to death in rec.outdoors.rv-travel.

Recommended reading:

http://amplepower.com/primer/index.html

Some of this is self-serving but it is probably the most comprehensive
site around that deals with the subject.

If I were confronted with the task, I go to the local car parts house any
purchase a battery hydrometer.

Don Dando


"Fly-by-Night CC" wrote in message
news
Oh great and all-knowing men among men, wordy, worldly and wise. Please
bestow upon me your deep knowledge, your passing proficiency, sense of
the common and not so much common. I humbly ask for guidance...

A friend, really my wife's manager, has a cabin, in the woods, near St.
Helens. No electricity and runs the cabin off a Honda generator hooked
up to 4 auto-style batteries, on a plywood shelf, connected in series.
The generator, below the plywood shelf, is run through an inverter to
charge the batteries - when they're full, the generator is turned off,
switches are switched and the needed electric comes from the batteries.

Problem is that the batteries, on the plywood shelf, don't seem to hold
a charge as they did a couple years ago when he bought the cabin, in the
woods. His father-in-law, uncle, neighbor, or grocery checkout clerk
told him that one battery might be dead and sucking the juice from the
others.

Last summer when he loaned us the cabin, in the woods near St. Helens, I
checked and filled the cells with distilled water, and cleaned and
tightened all cable connections. Seemed as though we were still running
the generator, under the plywood shelf, a lot - considering that
practically all of the house is run off propane except for a TV/VCR and
a few lights which are religiously turned off when not needed.

We're headed up there for a week and the friend asked my wife if I might
know how to check the batteries on the plywood shelf. Bless her heart,
she said that I would indeed, probably, know how to test the batteries
on the plywood shelf. Having a digital multi-tester at the ready, I am
turning to you for guidance and awaiting further instruction.

How to test for a faulty battery?
What type of replacement battery would be best for this use?
What winterizing steps to help ensure long battery life?

Thank you, oh wordy, worldly and wise ones.

--
Owen Lowe
The Fly-by-Night Copper Company
____

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the
Corporate States of America and to the
Republicans for which it stands, one nation,
under debt, easily divisible, with liberty
and justice for oil."
- Wiley Miller, Non Sequitur, 1/24/05

If it were me, I'd take the batteries home, charge them each up on the
AC charger, and bring them to Autozone. They have equipment for
checking batteries that beats a simple home battery tester.

You can test a battery's remaining capacity by charging it with an AC
charger and them hooking it up to a light bulb (like an old
headlight). If you know the watts of the light, you can calculate the
watt-hours the battery is capable of storing.

Batteries should always be tested separately.

Replace these batteries with deep cycle batteries, not regular car
batteries.

"Fly-by-Night CC" wrote in message
news
A friend, really my wife's manager, has a cabin, in the woods, near St.
Helens. No electricity and runs the cabin off a Honda generator hooked
up to 4 auto-style batteries, on a plywood shelf, connected in
series.

First off, for this kind of use, you don't want "auto-style
batteries", you want deep-cycle batteries. You will find these in a
store that sells to the marine or RV markets.

A regular car battery is designed to produce large bursts of current
to crank the starter motor, and then immediately get recharged and be
kept topped off. This kind of battery has many thin plates to give
lots of surface area, so it can generate the high current burst. The
problem is that if you repeatedly run it all the way down then charge
it back up (like you're doing), you will quickly ruin the plates.

A "deep cycle" battery looks similar on the outside, but inside has a
fewer number of thicker plates. It cannot produce the same
high-current surge a car starting battery can, but it is designed to
handle many cycles of being deeply discharged and then recharged. If
your friend really is using regular car batteries, that could be part
of the problem.

How to test for a faulty battery?

If it's not holding a charge, it's faulty :-). Somebody else
suggested a hygrometer, which will measure charge level indirectly by
measuring the density of the electrolyte (water-acid mixture) in the
battery.

If the 4 batteries are in series, I'd go armed with 4 voltmeters (you
can get them plenty cheap at Radio Shack). Hook one up to each
battery, charge up the whole bank to full charge, and watch the
voltages as you use power. If one is dropping significantly faster
than the others, that's your problem. You could just use a single
meeter, but 4 is simplier (and increases the geek factor).

What type of replacement battery would be best for this use?

Deep cycle (see above).

What winterizing steps to help ensure long battery life?

Make sure the battery is fully charged and kept topped off. A dead
battery will freeze, which will probably destroy it. Make sure the
outside of the battery is clean; crud accumulating on the outside of
the case can form a conductive path between the terminals leading to
discharge. A battery will self-discharge slowly anyway, hence the
need to keep it topped off. Sounds like a good application for some
solar cells; they won't provide enough power to run the whole place,
but will do fine to keep things topped off over the winter with no
load.

Fly-by-Night CC wrote:

snip
No electricity and runs the cabin off a Honda generator hooked
up to 4 auto-style batteries, on a plywood shelf, connected in series.
The generator, below the plywood shelf, is run through an inverter to
charge the batteries - when they're full, the generator is turned off,
switches are switched and the needed electric comes from the batteries.
snip

Could ramble on for hours about "house banks" of batteries, it is a
major topic of discussion among cruising sailors, but will try to be brief.

Chances are pretty good the existing automotive batteries are at end of
life and need replacement.

A hydrometer is needed to do basic battery health investigation.

Use T-105, 6V, golf cart batteries as replacements, basically a 200 AH
unit designed specifically for this purpose, wired in series and
parallel as req'd.

When it comes to batteries in a house bank, they are like clamps to a
wood worker, you can't have too many.

In this application, I'd probably use at least 8, T-105 units.

SFWIW, I will be putting 16 of them on my boat to provide a 12 VDC house
bank.

Your description of the system is confusing.

1) Is the cabin electrical system being operated at 120 VAC, being fed
by the batteries and an inverter?

2) Are the batteries being charged at 12 VDC from the Honda generator?

BTW, to extend the life of the batteries, recharge more frequently.

Maximum discharge of a bank is 50%, but if you do that, you sacrifice life.

HTH

Lew

"Fly-by-Night CC"
Snip
No electricity and runs the cabin off a Honda generator hooked
up to 4 auto-style batteries, on a plywood shelf, connected in series.
The generator, below the plywood shelf, is run through an inverter to
charge the batteries
Snip
cosidering that
practically all of the house is run off propane except for a TV/VCR and
a few lights which are religiously turned off when not needed.

Snip
How to test for a faulty battery?
What type of replacement battery would be best for this use?
What winterizing steps to help ensure long battery life?
Snip

Assumptions:
The batteries power an inverter to provide AC to the lights and TV/VCR.
The batteries are old - +2 years.
Small Honda generator 2000 watts or less.

Recommendations:
The use of an inverter to provide AC is a poor use of battery resources.
Suggest the owner get a new, larger generator. The new generators are more
efficient and significantly quieter.
Or
Replace the lamps in the cabin with RV style fluorescent 12V lamps.
Replace the TV/VCR with 12V style as well.
Replace the batteries with RV/Boat batteries (deep cycle).
Keep from freezing. / Disconnect all cables when not in use for long
periods.
Most important - Keep then clean and dry!

Many of the other suggestions for testing are good. Forget the hydrometer
however, a load test is the best method. If they are a newer, car type
batteries you won't be able to access the individual cells anyway

Dave

..





Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.usenet.com

"Wes Stewart" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 13:14:33 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:

[snip]

2. If a battery does have a shorted out cell it can discharge itself and
those connected to it rather quickly.

Really? How?

Yeah, A battery is simply a serieries of cells and adding another battery
simply adds another series of cells. A fully charged 12 volt battery will
have a voltage of 13.2 volts. With a slight load for a few minutes the
voltage goes down to 12 volts. A shorted cell works the same on the battery
as leaving the head lights on with the motor not running. Basically a
battery with a shorted cell will run itself down. Other batteries connected
in the series will also run down through that short. With automotive type
batteries there are some times 2 batteries under the hood when the car has a
diesel engine. Late 70's and early 80's Oldsmobiles with diesel engines had
2 batteries. Almost with out fail if one battery went bad the other battery
would go bad as a result of being run down to a dead state. Automotive
batteries do not hold up long when fully discharged repeatedly.


Actually to acertain charge condition, the battery should remain
unloaded for 24 hours before measuring the voltage.

This is true if you do not have the right type of testing equipment. A
fresh charged battery will have that surface charge that I mentioned earlier
and will reflect 2.2 volts per cell totaling 13.2 volts. Better HD battery
testers can draw a load on the fresh charged battery for a few seconds to
remove that surface charge and the voltage on the battery will drop to just
at or just over 12 volts. The condition of the battery can then be checked
successfully.

On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 13:14:33 GMT, "Leon"
SNIP
What winterizing steps to help ensure long battery life?

Do not let them freeze and keep them DRY and charged with a trickle charger.

In the described environment which does not have electricity to run a
trickle charger you may want to check around for a solar based
"battery tender". Assuming the cabin is not too deeply in the woods
and gets sun at least to the roof you could probably set one up rather
inexpensively that would be sufficient to keep the batteries topped
off as long as you give them a good charge with the generator before
leaving between visits. Of course a good snow on an unheated
roof................

Dave Hall

"Wes Stewart" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 13:14:33 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:

[snip]

2. If a battery does have a shorted out cell it can discharge itself and
those connected to it rather quickly.

Really? How?

Oh, to go a bit farther as to how a cell shorts out, If you have ever seen
in side the battery you have lead plates separated by insulators. The
insulators can crack or break from excess cold or heat and eventually allow
the plates to come in contact with each other. That causes the short.

Best way is to put a load on each battery in turn (sperated from each
other) and monitor time vs voltage. I would put at least a
200-300watt load on (12 v light bulbs work great for loads when
testing batteries)

Lead Acid batteries typically have about a 100x charge/discharge to
500x charge/discharge lifespan, depending on how deeply they are
discharged before recharging. Might be a better idea to double or
tripple the # of batteries so that the same usage will NOT drain them
as much as now, and keep an eye on the voltage and base the recharges
based on those measured voltages

Also, lead acid batteries do best if they are left on a maintenance
float charge when not in use, and a solar panel to help trickle/float
the batteries when the residence is not occupied would be a good idea

John
On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 04:25:59 -0500, "David D" crumbl @ gmail.com
wrote:

"Fly-by-Night CC" wrote in message
news
Oh great and all-knowing men among men, wordy, worldly and wise

Well, that lets me out, but ...

How to test for a faulty battery?
What type of replacement battery would be best for this use?
What winterizing steps to help ensure long battery life?


Here's one link that might be useful:

http://www.uuhome.de/william.darden/

On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 18:34:58 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:


"Wes Stewart" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 13:14:33 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:

[snip]

2. If a battery does have a shorted out cell it can discharge itself and
those connected to it rather quickly.

Really? How?

Yeah, A battery is simply a serieries of cells and adding another battery
simply adds another series of cells. A fully charged 12 volt battery will
have a voltage of 13.2 volts. With a slight load for a few minutes the
voltage goes down to 12 volts. A shorted cell works the same on the battery
as leaving the head lights on with the motor not running. Basically a
battery with a shorted cell will run itself down.

Baloney. Look at a 12V (nominal) battery in isolation. It is
comprised of 6 cells connected in series (aiding). If one cell shorts
(i.e. provides zero volts) the series connection yields ~10 V. There
is no mechanism resulting from this that affects the remaining 5 cells
in the slightest. Period. End of story. There is no additional
discharge path. Unloaded, the battery sits there providing 10V.

Other batteries connected
in the series will also run down through that short.

One or more of them with shorted cells *will not* affect the others.


With automotive type
batteries there are some times 2 batteries under the hood when the car has a
diesel engine. Late 70's and early 80's Oldsmobiles with diesel engines had
2 batteries. Almost with out fail if one battery went bad the other battery
would go bad as a result of being run down to a dead state. Automotive
batteries do not hold up long when fully discharged repeatedly.

This situation had the two batteries in parallel. A shorted cell in
one will cause the second to discharge to the 10V (nominal) level.

"Wes Stewart" wrote in message
...


Baloney. Look at a 12V (nominal) battery in isolation. It is
comprised of 6 cells connected in series (aiding). If one cell shorts
(i.e. provides zero volts) the series connection yields ~10 V. There
is no mechanism resulting from this that affects the remaining 5 cells
in the slightest. Period. End of story. There is no additional
discharge path. Unloaded, the battery sits there providing 10V.



That depends on which cell is shorted as to what voltage will be remaining.
Not always will a battery with 1 shorted cell show 10 volts. I'll admit
that it has probably been 20 years since I have done any battery testing.
Given that, When I tested for a short, I would connect a lead to 1 battery
terminal, I do not recall which, and another lead/probe would go down into
the water in the cell. If the first cell was good the volt meter would
indicate about 2 volts. With the probe in the next good cell the voltage
would be about 4 volts. If the third cell was bad/ shorted out, the voltage
would remain at about four bolts for the remaining cells and or if another
lead was connected to the other terminal.



Other batteries connected
in the series will also run down through that short.

One or more of them with shorted cells *will not* affect the others.


With automotive type
batteries there are some times 2 batteries under the hood when the car has
a
diesel engine. Late 70's and early 80's Oldsmobiles with diesel engines
had
2 batteries. Almost with out fail if one battery went bad the other
battery
would go bad as a result of being run down to a dead state. Automotive
batteries do not hold up long when fully discharged repeatedly.

This situation had the two batteries in parallel. A shorted cell in
one will cause the second to discharge to the 10V (nominal) level.

And I need to correct a statement that I made earlier. The second battery
connected up parallel will also be run down by the bad battery. Having
retired from the automotive industry and worked for Oldsmobile for 10 years
I saw this often. One day the engins starte fine, the next morning, only a
click from the starter solenoid. Oldsmobile always recomended replacing
both batteries if one battery was bad as the second battery could often be
recharged but would seldom hold up after having been discharged so
sompletely. Oldsmobile/ Delco ate many batteries under warranty on cars
equiped with dielel engines.

Leon wrote:
That depends on which cell is shorted as to what voltage will be
remaining.

How is that possible? A car battery is just 6 lead-acid cells in
series, that happen to share a common case. Each cell has a potential
of a little over 2 volts. The schematic looks like this (assuming I
haven't gotten the anode and cathode symbols bass ackwards):

+ | | | | | | -
------||-----||-----||-----||-----||-----||------
| | | | | |

Since each cell produces 2 volts, the end-to-end potential is 12
volts. If you short out a single cell:

+ | | | | | | -
------||--*---||--*--||-----||-----||-----||------
| | | | | | | |
| |
+-------+

You're left with 5 2-volt cells in series, giving you 10 volts. It
doesn't matter which cell shorted, you're still left with 5 2-volt
cells in series. 2+0+2+2+2+2 is the same as 2+2+0+2+2+2.

And I need to correct a statement that I made earlier. The second battery
connected up parallel will also be run down by the bad battery.
[...]
Oldsmobile/ Delco ate many batteries under warranty on cars
equiped with dielel engines.

Anybody who designs a system with two voltage sources in parallel or
two current sources in series deserves what they get.

Fly-by-Night CC wrote:

snip

How to test for a faulty battery?
What type of replacement battery would be best for this use?
What winterizing steps to help ensure long battery life?

Thank you, oh wordy, worldly and wise ones.


One of the things you have to watch out for in a set up like the one
your friend is using is if the batteries are deep discharged you stand a
chance of "cell reversal". With lead-acid batteries no cell should be
allowed to discharge below 1.75 volts. See:

http://www.batteryuniversity.com/partone-16.htm

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA

(Remove -SPAM- to send email)

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...
Leon wrote:
That depends on which cell is shorted as to what voltage will be
remaining.

How is that possible? A car battery is just 6 lead-acid cells in
series, that happen to share a common case. Each cell has a potential
of a little over 2 volts. The schematic looks like this (assuming I
haven't gotten the anode and cathode symbols bass ackwards):

+ | | | | | | -
------||-----||-----||-----||-----||-----||------
| | | | | |

Since each cell produces 2 volts, the end-to-end potential is 12
volts. If you short out a single cell:

+ | | | | | | -
------||--*---||--*--||-----||-----||-----||------
| | | | | | | |
| |
+-------+

You're left with 5 2-volt cells in series, giving you 10 volts. It
doesn't matter which cell shorted, you're still left with 5 2-volt
cells in series. 2+0+2+2+2+2 is the same as 2+2+0+2+2+2.

Many years have passed,, ;~( and I undoubatably have use the wrong
termonology. Seeing was believing with the old style battery tester and my
memory of the end result is probably inaccurate. That said however since a
battery by definieion is more than one, and or several of any one thing, a
battery of cells make up a higher voltage storage unit commonly called a
battery. A D cell is technically not a battery but 2 D cells are a battery.
I guess to help understand what I am trying to convey, cells in a series
contribute to a higher voltage. If one of the cells in a series no longer
allows current to pass through the voltage stops increasing at that point.
I think similarly with cheap Christmas tree lights wired in a series if a
bulb does not work the whole string quits working. If you terminate the
strings of lights before the bulb that does not work and close the circuit
the lights before the non working light will again light up. A bad cell
will have a detremental effect on the remaining cells.


And I need to correct a statement that I made earlier. The second
battery
connected up parallel will also be run down by the bad battery.
[...]
Oldsmobile/ Delco ate many batteries under warranty on cars
equiped with dielel engines.

Anybody who designs a system with two voltage sources in parallel or
two current sources in series deserves what they get.

I totally agree but I suspect at that time a battery with enough cranking
amps would have been too large to fit in one spot under a crowded hood. 2
smaller batteries could be more easily located. IIRC the combined CCA's
were around 1500. The smaller V6 260 ci diesel used in the front wheel
drive vehicles used a single larger battery rated at over 1200 CCA. The
whole Olds diesel scenario had many weak points.
Further, RV's use multiple batteries set up parallel for lighting and water
pumps. When one went bad they all seemed to go bad. I was able to make
some of them last a little longer by disconnecting them from each other
during storage. Then only 1 would usually go bad at a time. I would check
the voltage of each one before reconnecting.

In article ,
Thomas Kendrick wrote:

What winterizing steps to help ensure long battery life?

Do not let them freeze and keep them DRY and charged with a trickle charger.

Oops, I was tempted to suggest a trickle charger as well. The only way
that will work is to remove these batteries from the cabin and take
them to a location where full-time power is available. If the
generator isn't running, there's no power in the cabin.

Try to find a friend in the area of the cabin who will keep these
units warm, dry and charged so hauling them back and forth to your
home is not required.

Solar cells. Something like http://tinyurl.com/3vtl7, for example. $115
gets you 0.3A, which is enough to make up for self-discharge. Well, OK,
you've got 4 batteries, so you'll need 4 of these.

Yeah, I meant to mention golf cart batteries.
But paralleling is bad, as mentioned, because of dragging each other down.
Series is better also because the higher voltage means less current is
needed to the appliances and to an inverter. Less current means less
voltage drop and smaller connectors and wire.

I'd bet that a good inverter on 48, 72, or 96 volts input and 120VAC output
will give superior performance, long term, UNLESS it is way oversize. At
near full load, they can be in the 90% efficiency range. Ideally, one could
use multiple inverters, so that each runs something that puts it at near
full load.

Obviously there are lots of tradeoffs, but the 12V appliances/electronics
are great. Having multiple 12V batteries that can be switched in as needed
would be a good way too handle the TV load.

Then again, there's a lot to be said for peace and quiet! Buy some books!
Wilson


"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
link.net...
Fly-by-Night CC wrote:

snip
No electricity and runs the cabin off a Honda generator hooked up to 4
auto-style batteries, on a plywood shelf, connected in series. The
generator, below the plywood shelf, is run through an inverter to charge
the batteries - when they're full, the generator is turned off, switches
are switched and the needed electric comes from the batteries.
snip

Could ramble on for hours about "house banks" of batteries, it is a major
topic of discussion among cruising sailors, but will try to be brief.

Chances are pretty good the existing automotive batteries are at end of
life and need replacement.

A hydrometer is needed to do basic battery health investigation.

Use T-105, 6V, golf cart batteries as replacements, basically a 200 AH
unit designed specifically for this purpose, wired in series and parallel
as req'd.

When it comes to batteries in a house bank, they are like clamps to a wood
worker, you can't have too many.

In this application, I'd probably use at least 8, T-105 units.

SFWIW, I will be putting 16 of them on my boat to provide a 12 VDC house
bank.

Your description of the system is confusing.

1) Is the cabin electrical system being operated at 120 VAC, being fed by
the batteries and an inverter?

2) Are the batteries being charged at 12 VDC from the Honda generator?

BTW, to extend the life of the batteries, recharge more frequently.

Maximum discharge of a bank is 50%, but if you do that, you sacrifice
life.

HTH

Lew

How to test for a faulty battery?


Digital voltmeter AND a hydrometer. I have yet to have a hydrometer fail me
for testing lead acid batteries, unless the battery is sealed!
Greg

They make inexpensive solar chargers for autos. You can get a few and hook
them up.
max

What winterizing steps to help ensure long battery life?

Do not let them freeze and keep them DRY and charged with a trickle charger.

Oops, I was tempted to suggest a trickle charger as well. The only way
that will work is to remove these batteries from the cabin and take
them to a location where full-time power is available. If the
generator isn't running, there's no power in the cabin.

Try to find a friend in the area of the cabin who will keep these
units warm, dry and charged so hauling them back and forth to your
home is not required.

Very interesting thread

Does anyone have links as to what and where to buy 12v appliances?

I am new to the world of camping and will be setting up a cabin off
grid later this year.

Any suggestions are appreciated.

Thanks

TMT

Too_Many_Tools wrote:
Very interesting thread

Does anyone have links as to what and where to buy 12v appliances?



http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...oogle+Sear ch

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA

(Remove -SPAM- to send email)

The most abundant places would probably be RV dealers. But, they are going
to come with a premium price tag.


"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
ups.com...
Very interesting thread

Does anyone have links as to what and where to buy 12v appliances?

I am new to the world of camping and will be setting up a cabin off
grid later this year.

Any suggestions are appreciated.

Thanks

TMT

More efficiency talk:

For something that isn't on long, like a blender or microwave, efficiency
isn't all that big a deal, so an inverter for that stuff is fine. The same
inverter will carry small tools, like drills and sanders.

For radio, a car radio and some good speakers is a fine choice.

For TV, if it has to be big, then an inverter just big enough to carry it
will be best.

2KW is a big generator. You should be taking a few hours for a full charge.
Say you run 50V at 15A, that's only 750W. There are some small water
heaters at about 1-1.5KW, so you could heat enough water for a shower or two
at the same time. Larger generators are gas hogs, especially when not
heavily loaded.

WL
"Wilson Lamb" wrote in message
nk.net...
Yeah, I meant to mention golf cart batteries.
But paralleling is bad, as mentioned, because of dragging each other down.
Series is better also because the higher voltage means less current is
needed to the appliances and to an inverter. Less current means less
voltage drop and smaller connectors and wire.

I'd bet that a good inverter on 48, 72, or 96 volts input and 120VAC
output will give superior performance, long term, UNLESS it is way
oversize. At near full load, they can be in the 90% efficiency range.
Ideally, one could use multiple inverters, so that each runs something
that puts it at near full load.

Obviously there are lots of tradeoffs, but the 12V appliances/electronics
are great. Having multiple 12V batteries that can be switched in as
needed would be a good way too handle the TV load.

Then again, there's a lot to be said for peace and quiet! Buy some books!
Wilson


"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
link.net...
Fly-by-Night CC wrote:

snip
No electricity and runs the cabin off a Honda generator hooked up to 4
auto-style batteries, on a plywood shelf, connected in series. The
generator, below the plywood shelf, is run through an inverter to charge
the batteries - when they're full, the generator is turned off, switches
are switched and the needed electric comes from the batteries.
snip

Could ramble on for hours about "house banks" of batteries, it is a major
topic of discussion among cruising sailors, but will try to be brief.

Chances are pretty good the existing automotive batteries are at end of
life and need replacement.

A hydrometer is needed to do basic battery health investigation.

Use T-105, 6V, golf cart batteries as replacements, basically a 200 AH
unit designed specifically for this purpose, wired in series and parallel
as req'd.

When it comes to batteries in a house bank, they are like clamps to a
wood worker, you can't have too many.

In this application, I'd probably use at least 8, T-105 units.

SFWIW, I will be putting 16 of them on my boat to provide a 12 VDC house
bank.

Your description of the system is confusing.

1) Is the cabin electrical system being operated at 120 VAC, being fed by
the batteries and an inverter?

2) Are the batteries being charged at 12 VDC from the Honda generator?

BTW, to extend the life of the batteries, recharge more frequently.

Maximum discharge of a bank is 50%, but if you do that, you sacrifice
life.

HTH

Lew

"Wilson Lamb" wrote in
news
2KW is a big generator. You should be taking a few hours for a full
charge. Say you run 50V at 15A, that's only 750W. There are some
small water heaters at about 1-1.5KW, so you could heat enough water
for a shower or two at the same time. Larger generators are gas hogs,
especially when not heavily loaded.

I'm not disagreeing with all of this, as my limited real-world experience
is several decades old.

I'm curious, however, about why one would consider an electric water
heater, off-grid? It seems that burning a fossil fuel to make electricity
to make resistance heat for water HAS to be less efficient than applying
that burning fossil fuel directly to the water tank. Or so I would think.

In a vacation home, one could consider a wood fired water heater, no?

Patriarch,
who loves these electrical, educational threads, generally from a distance.

"Wilson Lamb"
Snip
2KW is a big generator. You should be taking a few hours for a full
charge. Say you run 50V at 15A, that's only 750W. There are some small
water heaters at about 1-1.5KW, so you could heat enough water for a
shower or two at the same time. Larger generators are gas hogs,
especially when not heavily loaded.
Snip

A 2KW generator is not a very big generator at all. One of my Honda's is a
2000W
http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/M...elName=eu2000i

It is small, quiet and efficient.

My other one is 5500W, water cooled, quiet and will run my entire house with
kids for 10 hours on 3 gals of fuel.
http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/M...delName=ex5500

The OP said the cabin had most appliances on propane so I don't think an
electric water heater is much of an option.

Dave



Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.usenet.com

Yep, I was just letting that thought run. A propane water heater is fine,
if it's not too hard to carry the tanks in, ot if they are delivered. I'd
love a wood water heater, if there's good wood available, but most of the
ones I've seen take only tiny wood.
WL
"Patriarch" wrote in message
. 97.136...
"Wilson Lamb" wrote in
news
2KW is a big generator. You should be taking a few hours for a full
charge. Say you run 50V at 15A, that's only 750W. There are some
small water heaters at about 1-1.5KW, so you could heat enough water
for a shower or two at the same time. Larger generators are gas hogs,
especially when not heavily loaded.

I'm not disagreeing with all of this, as my limited real-world experience
is several decades old.

I'm curious, however, about why one would consider an electric water
heater, off-grid? It seems that burning a fossil fuel to make electricity
to make resistance heat for water HAS to be less efficient than applying
that burning fossil fuel directly to the water tank. Or so I would think.

In a vacation home, one could consider a wood fired water heater, no?

Patriarch,
who loves these electrical, educational threads, generally from a
distance.

On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 12:32:56 -0700, Wes Stewart wrote:
Baloney? Nah! Tis rec.woodworking.electrical.theory. After all, Wes, we've had
dust collectors throw bolts of lightning and explode with their fury. We've
moved from 110v to 220v and cut our electric bill in half. We've just done so
many things with this electrical stuff.

What are series and parallel circuits? What is a short? We don't need to know
this stuff here.

One of these days I've gotta go over to sci.physics and see if they have big
threads on ripping wood with a RAS...

Have patience, Wes; this too will pass.
GerryG

On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 18:34:58 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:


"Wes Stewart" wrote in message
. ..
On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 13:14:33 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:

[snip]

2. If a battery does have a shorted out cell it can discharge itself and
those connected to it rather quickly.

Really? How?

Yeah, A battery is simply a serieries of cells and adding another battery
simply adds another series of cells. A fully charged 12 volt battery will
have a voltage of 13.2 volts. With a slight load for a few minutes the
voltage goes down to 12 volts. A shorted cell works the same on the battery
as leaving the head lights on with the motor not running. Basically a
battery with a shorted cell will run itself down.

Baloney. Look at a 12V (nominal) battery in isolation. It is
comprised of 6 cells connected in series (aiding). If one cell shorts
(i.e. provides zero volts) the series connection yields ~10 V. There
is no mechanism resulting from this that affects the remaining 5 cells
in the slightest. Period. End of story. There is no additional
discharge path. Unloaded, the battery sits there providing 10V.

snip

On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 05:17:46 GMT, GerryG wrote:
On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 12:32:56 -0700, Wes Stewart wrote:
Baloney? Nah! Tis rec.woodworking.electrical.theory. After all, Wes, we've had
dust collectors throw bolts of lightning and explode with their fury. We've
moved from 110v to 220v and cut our electric bill in half. We've just done so
many things with this electrical stuff.

What are series and parallel circuits? What is a short? We don't need to know
this stuff here.

One of these days I've gotta go over to sci.physics and see if they have big
threads on ripping wood with a RAS...



Nah. They'd use a laser or a plasma torch powered by their cold fusion
reactor.

Charles Krug wrote in
:

snip

Nah. They'd use a laser or a plasma torch powered by their cold
fusion reactor.


Got any free plans?

On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 11:08:57 -0600, Patriarch
wrote:
Charles Krug wrote in
:

snip

Nah. They'd use a laser or a plasma torch powered by their cold
fusion reactor.


Got any free plans?


Nope. But I bet Joat does.

Charles Krug wrote in news:qZZZd.142445$Th1.83863
@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:

On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 11:08:57 -0600, Patriarch
wrote:
Charles Krug wrote in
:

snip

Nah. They'd use a laser or a plasma torch powered by their cold
fusion reactor.


Got any free plans?


Nope. But I bet Joat does.



YOU send him the email. ;-)

In article ,
Fly-by-Night CC wrote:

Oh great and all-knowing men among men, wordy, worldly and wise. Please
bestow upon me your deep knowledge, your passing proficiency, sense of
the common and not so much common. I humbly ask for guidance...

Wow, 40 messages and even some divergance to plasma torches... Did I
mention that you guys are not only worldly and wise but WORDY?

Thank you all for the hydrometer suggestion. Given the "maintenance
free" batteries of the last decade or more, I'd pretty much forgotten
about hydrometer testing.

I've passed along the replies that I thought the cabin owner could use.
I'm going to recommend that I bring back the batteries after our stay
and he can then have them load tested - and likely replaced. I'll also
recommend that he replace the 4 with 6 or 8 deep-cycle batts. Plus hook
up some sort of solar trickle charger for the periods between visits.
(Not sure how effective they may be as the cabin is well surrounded by
tall trees - plus the often cloudy/rainy October to April up here.)

Thanks again - I knew I'd get good feedback from you old farts. Age wise
over youthful beauty, no?

--
Owen Lowe
The Fly-by-Night Copper Company
____

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the
Corporate States of America and to the
Republicans for which it stands, one nation,
under debt, easily divisible, with liberty
and justice for oil."
- Wiley Miller, Non Sequitur, 1/24/05