As I was thinking about backup power the other day the following train
of thought occurred to me:-

1. Generators are available powered by diesel or petrol

2. Petrol car engines are easily converted to run on LPG

3. My gas hob is easily switched between natural gas and LPG

So I was wondering whether or not it is possible to get a petrol
generator running off LPG, and if so, could it be further converted to
run off mains gas?

No plans to actually implement this but I'd be interested if it's
technically possible/prohibitively expensive/specifically precluded by
regulation etc.

Thanks

Neil

On Fri, 2 Apr 2004 12:11:36 +0100, "Neil Jones" wrote:

So I was wondering whether or not it is possible to get a petrol
generator running off LPG, and if so, could it be further converted to
run off mains gas?

http://www.lpg-business.co.uk/portab...generators.htm

Is an LPG powered generator off-the-shelf. Don't forget that the exhaust is every bit as
poisonous as petrol and diesel exhaust, so you must vent it properly.

No plans to actually implement this but I'd be interested if it's
technically possible/prohibitively expensive/specifically precluded by
regulation etc.

CHP (Combined Heat and Power) has been around for quite a while, but the economics of it
are really only favourable for industrial use. Mains gas (typically) is used to drive a
modified car/truck engine which drives a generator for electric power and the waste heat
from the water jacket is used to heat the building. It isn't quite that simple, because
there is normally an agreement with an electricity supplier, that you can draw extra power
as you need, and if the establishment closes at night + weekends, it can put into the grid
for credit. The problem is synchronising with the grid, if you get this wrong, the local
distribution system will probably go *BOP*.

John Schmitt

Neil Jones wrote:
As I was thinking about backup power the other day the following train
of thought occurred to me:-

1. Generators are available powered by diesel or petrol

2. Petrol car engines are easily converted to run on LPG

3. My gas hob is easily switched between natural gas and LPG

So I was wondering whether or not it is possible to get a petrol
generator running off LPG, and if so, could it be further converted to
run off mains gas?


Machine Mart do a kit to convert their Honda petrol sets to run on LPG.
How easy it would be to run on natural gas I don't know - suspect with a
bit of carb tweaking would be very easy.

--
Grunff

"Grunff" wrote in message
...
Neil Jones wrote:
As I was thinking about backup power the other day the following
train
of thought occurred to me:-

1. Generators are available powered by diesel or petrol

2. Petrol car engines are easily converted to run on LPG

3. My gas hob is easily switched between natural gas and LPG

So I was wondering whether or not it is possible to get a petrol
generator running off LPG, and if so, could it be further converted
to
run off mains gas?


Machine Mart do a kit to convert their Honda petrol sets to run on
LPG.
How easy it would be to run on natural gas I don't know - suspect with
a
bit of carb tweaking would be very easy.

--
Grunff

Thanks - from these 2 replies I'm clearly not being as stupid as I first
thought :-)

Neil

On Fri, 2 Apr 2004 12:11:36 +0100, "Neil Jones"
wrote:

As I was thinking about backup power the other day the following train
of thought occurred to me:-

1. Generators are available powered by diesel or petrol

2. Petrol car engines are easily converted to run on LPG

3. My gas hob is easily switched between natural gas and LPG

So I was wondering whether or not it is possible to get a petrol
generator running off LPG, and if so, could it be further converted to
run off mains gas?

No plans to actually implement this but I'd be interested if it's
technically possible/prohibitively expensive/specifically precluded by
regulation etc.

I'd also wondered about building a generator that runs off mains water
pressure...granted it wouldn't be enough to power the whole house but
it *should* power the lighting.

sPoNiX

On Fri, 2 Apr 2004 12:11:36 +0100, "Neil Jones"
wrote:

As I was thinking about backup power the other day the following train
of thought occurred to me:-

1. Generators are available powered by diesel or petrol

2. Petrol car engines are easily converted to run on LPG

3. My gas hob is easily switched between natural gas and LPG

So I was wondering whether or not it is possible to get a petrol
generator running off LPG, and if so, could it be further converted to
run off mains gas?

No plans to actually implement this but I'd be interested if it's
technically possible/prohibitively expensive/specifically precluded by
regulation etc.

These people do it on a slightly larger scale:

http://www.bowmanpower.co.uk/

"sPoNiX" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 2 Apr 2004 12:11:36 +0100, "Neil Jones"
wrote:
snip
I'd also wondered about building a generator that runs off mains water
pressure...granted it wouldn't be enough to power the whole house but
it *should* power the lighting.

sPoNiX

A turbine in the soil pipe could also recover some of that expended energy
:-)

As with the 'mains water' generator you would need to store the electricity
(unless you are not on a water meter and plan to run the tap 24/7).

Cheers
Dave R

"sPoNiX" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 2 Apr 2004 12:11:36 +0100, "Neil Jones"
wrote:

As I was thinking about backup power the other day the following train
of thought occurred to me:-

1. Generators are available powered by diesel or petrol

2. Petrol car engines are easily converted to run on LPG

3. My gas hob is easily switched between natural gas and LPG

So I was wondering whether or not it is possible to get a petrol
generator running off LPG, and if so, could it be further converted to
run off mains gas?

No plans to actually implement this but I'd be interested if it's
technically possible/prohibitively expensive/specifically precluded by
regulation etc.

I'd also wondered about building a generator that runs off mains water
pressure...granted it wouldn't be enough to power the whole house but
it *should* power the lighting.

Firstly, it will reduce your mains pressure. You could have it heat an
immersion in a cylinder, so every time the tap is on it turns and the
immersion will dump some heat in the cylinder water. It is getting a unit
that is efficient enough to do it. It would have to a DIY effort.

"John Schmitt" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 2 Apr 2004 12:11:36 +0100, "Neil Jones"
wrote:

So I was wondering whether or not it is possible to get a petrol
generator running off LPG, and if so, could it be further converted to
run off mains gas?

http://www.lpg-business.co.uk/portab...generators.htm

Is an LPG powered generator off-the-shelf. Don't forget that the exhaust
is every bit as
poisonous as petrol and diesel exhaust, so you must vent it properly.

No plans to actually implement this but I'd be interested if it's
technically possible/prohibitively expensive/specifically precluded by
regulation etc.

CHP (Combined Heat and Power) has been around for quite a while, but the
economics of it
are really only favourable for industrial use. Mains gas (typically) is
used to drive a
modified car/truck engine which drives a generator for electric power and
the waste heat
from the water jacket is used to heat the building. It isn't quite that
simple, because
there is normally an agreement with an electricity supplier, that you can
draw extra power
as you need, and if the establishment closes at night + weekends, it can
put into the grid
for credit. The problem is synchronising with the grid, if you get this
wrong, the local
distribution system will probably go *BOP*.

The best CHP method using an IC engine, is to have the genny power up a set
of batteries. this is an auto arrangement that charges them when they are
down. When charged the genny is off. Then an inverter takes the DC and
converts it into a.c for the house to use. Also the hot water created can
be store in a thermal store.

Running an IC genny 24/7 is highly uneconomical, umnless al the power and
heat is being used or stored.

On Fri, 2 Apr 2004 14:34:10 +0100, "David W.E. Roberts"
wrote:


As with the 'mains water' generator you would need to store the electricity
(unless you are not on a water meter and plan to run the tap 24/7).

No water meter

It was just an idle thought that you could devise some system that
operated a turbine whenever the water supply wasn't being used. The
energy could be stored in a series of batteries for use when needed.

Whenever the water pressure is needed somewhere else the water supply
could be diverted and the gererator allowed to spin down.

sPoNiX

On Fri, 2 Apr 2004 15:05:01 +0100, "IMM" wrote:

Running an IC genny 24/7 is highly uneconomical, umnless al the power and
heat is being used or stored.

Wrong. Even without the generous government grants, for large installations (which is where
I said they were viable) there are consistent savings to be made.

www.est.org.uk/communityenergy/images/ uploaded/documents/ACFPLBwLaq7D.doc

The HE sector is moving into CHP in a relatively big way. Not surprising really, as some
of the bigger players in the sector have student populations comparable to that of Gibraltar.

http://www.clarke-energy.co.uk/dundee.htm

Is but one example. It is far better to keep the engine running, with scheduled downtime.
Think about automotive engines and the most common reasons cars fail to do what they are
supposed to. Correct: B*gg*r wont start! Also the lubrication is constant, and the load is
stable so that wear is minimised. At least one sewage works I know of goes one stage farther
and obtains all their hot water and one third of their electricity from methane derived from
their sludge digesters. This also has the advantage of giving them skeleton power to keep the
plant going until the rest of their gensets come on stream if the mains goes.

John Schmitt

"sPoNiX" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 2 Apr 2004 14:34:10 +0100, "David W.E. Roberts"
wrote:

As with the 'mains water' generator you would need to store the
electricity
(unless you are not on a water meter and plan to run the tap 24/7).

No water meter

It was just an idle thought that you could devise some system that
operated a turbine whenever the water supply wasn't being used. The
energy could be stored in a series of batteries for use when needed.

Whenever the water pressure is needed somewhere else the water supply
could be diverted and the gererator allowed to spin down.

You could have a large tank at high level and one at low level. The mains
water turns the genny to produce power to heat a thermal store of water.
The genny turbine would have another pump on the same shaft. This pump,
pumps water from the low tank to the high level tank. When the high tank is
full the water from the high tank is released to turn the genny and flows
into the lower tank. Start all over again. You are getting the power to
raise the water free ( the water companies pumps in fact).

"John Schmitt" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 2 Apr 2004 15:05:01 +0100, "IMM" wrote:

Running an IC genny 24/7 is highly uneconomical, umnless al the power
and
heat is being used or stored.

Wrong. Even without the generous government grants, for large
installations (which is where
I said they were viable) there are consistent savings to be made.

www.est.org.uk/communityenergy/images/ uploaded/documents/ACFPLBwLaq7D.doc

The HE sector is moving into CHP in a relatively big way. Not surprising
really, as some
of the bigger players in the sector have student populations comparable to
that of Gibraltar.

http://www.clarke-energy.co.uk/dundee.htm

Is but one example. It is far better to keep the
engine running, with scheduled downtime.
Think about automotive engines and the most
common reasons cars fail to do what they are
supposed to. Correct: B*gg*r wont start! Also the
lubrication is constant,

There are retrofitted oil storage vessels under pressure. When the engine
turns the oil is released super fast into the bearings. It prolongs the
life of an engine.

and the load is
stable so that wear is minimised. At least one sewage works I know of goes
one stage farther
and obtains all their hot water and one third of their electricity from
methane derived from
their sludge digesters. This also has the advantage of giving them
skeleton power to keep the
plant going until the rest of their gensets come on stream if the mains
goes.

John Schmitt

It all depends on usage. Light usage, which is most domestic if you heat,
cook and DHW on gas, it is best to use the battery method topping up when
required. You are right in that the best usage is from large users. But
the inefficiencies of the IC engines is still there.

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
sPoNiX wrote:


I'd also wondered about building a generator that runs off mains water
pressure...granted it wouldn't be enough to power the whole house but
it *should* power the lighting.

sPoNiX

Problem is that there's no energy in mains *pressure* unless it is
accompanied by flow (in the same that there's no energy in voltage without
an associated current).

So you could only generate electricity whilst actually *using* water. If you
use it just to generate electricity, you waste an awful lot of water - which
the Water Board might just notice, even if you're not on a meter.
--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is Black Hole!

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Neil Jones wrote:

As I was thinking about backup power the other day the following train
of thought occurred to me:-

1. Generators are available powered by diesel or petrol

2. Petrol car engines are easily converted to run on LPG

3. My gas hob is easily switched between natural gas and LPG

So I was wondering whether or not it is possible to get a petrol
generator running off LPG, and if so, could it be further converted to
run off mains gas?

No plans to actually implement this but I'd be interested if it's
technically possible/prohibitively expensive/specifically precluded by
regulation etc.

Thanks

Neil

I have a Honda petrol generator which can apparently be converted to run on
bottled LPG. However, according to Brown Power of Rugby (who supplied the
generator) it doesn't work with mains gas. [I asked the question because I
bought it mainly to keep the electrical bits of my gas central heating going
in the event of a prolonged power cut - and it would have been convenient to
run the genny on gas at the same time].
--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is Black Hole!

"Neil Jones" wrote in message
...
As I was thinking about backup power the other day the following train
of thought occurred to me:-

1. Generators are available powered by diesel or petrol

2. Petrol car engines are easily converted to run on LPG

3. My gas hob is easily switched between natural gas and LPG

So I was wondering whether or not it is possible to get a petrol
generator running off LPG, and if so, could it be further converted to
run off mains gas?

No plans to actually implement this but I'd be interested if it's
technically possible/prohibitively expensive/specifically precluded by
regulation etc.

Thanks

Neil

What you want is a steam turbine.
Heat the water with a gas jet.

"Set Square" wrote in message
...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Neil Jones wrote:

As I was thinking about backup power the other day the following
train
of thought occurred to me:-

1. Generators are available powered by diesel or petrol

2. Petrol car engines are easily converted to run on LPG

3. My gas hob is easily switched between natural gas and LPG

So I was wondering whether or not it is possible to get a petrol
generator running off LPG, and if so, could it be further converted
to
run off mains gas?

No plans to actually implement this but I'd be interested if it's
technically possible/prohibitively expensive/specifically precluded
by
regulation etc.

Thanks

Neil

I have a Honda petrol generator which can apparently be converted to
run on
bottled LPG. However, according to Brown Power of Rugby (who supplied
the
generator) it doesn't work with mains gas. [I asked the question
because I
bought it mainly to keep the electrical bits of my gas central heating
going
in the event of a prolonged power cut - and it would have been
convenient to
run the genny on gas at the same time].
--

Yes, this is the sort of application I was thinking about - it would be
more convenient to let it run off the mains gas than keep having to
change bottles or fill jerry cans at the petrol station.

Neil

"David W.E. Roberts" wrote in message
...

"Neil Jones" wrote in message
...
As I was thinking about backup power the other day the following
train
of thought occurred to me:-

1. Generators are available powered by diesel or petrol

2. Petrol car engines are easily converted to run on LPG

3. My gas hob is easily switched between natural gas and LPG

So I was wondering whether or not it is possible to get a petrol
generator running off LPG, and if so, could it be further converted
to
run off mains gas?

No plans to actually implement this but I'd be interested if it's
technically possible/prohibitively expensive/specifically precluded
by
regulation etc.

Thanks

Neil

What you want is a steam turbine.
Heat the water with a gas jet.



Sort of miniature power station in my garden shed? What's involved and
is this really a practical consideration?

"Neil Jones" wrote in message
...

snip

What you want is a steam turbine.
Heat the water with a gas jet.



Sort of miniature power station in my garden shed? What's involved and
is this really a practical consideration?

The thought was prompted by memories of a country show where there were
loads of old small stationary steam engines.

They did all sorts of things including generating electricity.

AFAICS it wouldn't be difficult to convert a coal fired steam engine to run
on gas.

Steam turbine was one step further (too far?).

A steam engine with a rotating flywheel could drive a generator no problem -
a lot of older rural houses had diesel gennies which AFAIR were in two
parts - engine and generator.

Not as whizzo efficient as a modern petrol generator, I presume, but a
quaint and interesting power source none the less :-)

"David W.E. Roberts" wrote in message
...

"Neil Jones" wrote in message
...

snip

What you want is a steam turbine.
Heat the water with a gas jet.



Sort of miniature power station in my garden shed? What's involved
and
is this really a practical consideration?

The thought was prompted by memories of a country show where there
were
loads of old small stationary steam engines.

They did all sorts of things including generating electricity.

AFAICS it wouldn't be difficult to convert a coal fired steam engine
to run
on gas.

Steam turbine was one step further (too far?).

A steam engine with a rotating flywheel could drive a generator no
problem -
a lot of older rural houses had diesel gennies which AFAIR were in two
parts - engine and generator.

Not as whizzo efficient as a modern petrol generator, I presume, but a
quaint and interesting power source none the less :-)


Certainly would be a talking-point!

"Neil Jones" wrote in message
...
snip
Certainly would be a talking-point!


See http://www.bioenergy.org/chandp.html for steam turbines powered by
natural gas.

Started to Google, but as usual p*ssed off by the number of referral engines
cluttering the place up.

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Neil Jones wrote:

"David W.E. Roberts" wrote in message
...

"Neil Jones" wrote in message
...

snip

What you want is a steam turbine.
Heat the water with a gas jet.



Sort of miniature power station in my garden shed? What's involved
and is this really a practical consideration?

The thought was prompted by memories of a country show where there
were loads of old small stationary steam engines.

They did all sorts of things including generating electricity.

AFAICS it wouldn't be difficult to convert a coal fired steam engine
to run on gas.

Steam turbine was one step further (too far?).

A steam engine with a rotating flywheel could drive a generator no
problem - a lot of older rural houses had diesel gennies which AFAIR
were in two parts - engine and generator.

Not as whizzo efficient as a modern petrol generator, I presume, but
a quaint and interesting power source none the less :-)


Certainly would be a talking-point!


Actually, I'd like to be able to generate *all* my electricity from gas -
not just in an emergency. Bearing in mind that the marginal cost per kWHr of
(on peak) electricity is 3.6 times that of gas, I would save on fuel costs
as long as the overall conversion efficiency was more than about 27.5%
--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is Black Hole!

"Set Square" wrote in message
...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Neil Jones wrote:

"David W.E. Roberts" wrote in message
...

"Neil Jones" wrote in message
...

snip

What you want is a steam turbine.
Heat the water with a gas jet.



Sort of miniature power station in my garden shed? What's involved
and is this really a practical consideration?

The thought was prompted by memories of a country show where there
were loads of old small stationary steam engines.

They did all sorts of things including generating electricity.

AFAICS it wouldn't be difficult to convert a coal fired steam engine
to run on gas.

Steam turbine was one step further (too far?).

A steam engine with a rotating flywheel could drive a generator no
problem - a lot of older rural houses had diesel gennies which AFAIR
were in two parts - engine and generator.

Not as whizzo efficient as a modern petrol generator, I presume, but
a quaint and interesting power source none the less :-)


Certainly would be a talking-point!


Actually, I'd like to be able to generate *all* my electricity from gas -
not just in an emergency. Bearing in mind that the marginal cost per kWHr
of
(on peak) electricity is 3.6 times that of gas, I would save on fuel costs
as long as the overall conversion efficiency was more than about 27.5%

External combustion Stirling engines are the best for power generation. Do
a web search and tons of stuff comes up.

"Set Square" wrote in message
...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
snip
Actually, I'd like to be able to generate *all* my electricity from gas -
not just in an emergency. Bearing in mind that the marginal cost per kWHr
of
(on peak) electricity is 3.6 times that of gas, I would save on fuel costs
as long as the overall conversion efficiency was more than about 27.5%
--
Cheers,
Set Square

Not as simple as it sounds :-)

You have to add in the cost of the equipment.

Much the same kind of sums as:

(a) converting a vehicle to LPG
(b) trading in a huge gas guzzler for a super efficient micro car

For (a) the payback is generally at least 20,000 miles. Given that, the
payback for (b) will probably be even further away, assuming you spend more
than £1200 on changing the car.

So our VW camper is still petrol and we still have the Volvo Turbo Estate
:-)

However I would be interested to see a costed example :-))

Cheers
Dave R

"Set Square" wrote in message
...

Actually, I'd like to be able to generate *all* my electricity from gas -
not just in an emergency. Bearing in mind that the marginal cost per kWHr of
(on peak) electricity is 3.6 times that of gas, I would save on fuel costs
as long as the overall conversion efficiency was more than about 27.5%

Which it isn't; and you'd want batteries to handle the peak loads.
Once you've got the batteries, you can store off-peak electricity.

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
David W.E. Roberts wrote:

"Set Square" wrote in message
...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
snip
Actually, I'd like to be able to generate *all* my electricity from
gas - not just in an emergency. Bearing in mind that the marginal
cost per kWHr of (on peak) electricity is 3.6 times that of gas, I
would save on fuel costs as long as the overall conversion
efficiency was more than about 27.5% --
Cheers,
Set Square

Not as simple as it sounds :-)

You have to add in the cost of the equipment.

Much the same kind of sums as:

(a) converting a vehicle to LPG
(b) trading in a huge gas guzzler for a super efficient micro car

For (a) the payback is generally at least 20,000 miles. Given that,
the payback for (b) will probably be even further away, assuming you
spend more than £1200 on changing the car.

So our VW camper is still petrol and we still have the Volvo Turbo
Estate :-)

However I would be interested to see a costed example :-))

Cheers
Dave R

Yes, I know that the overall economics probably wouldn't be favourable. It
just irks me that I spend more on electricity than gas, despite only using a
third as much of the stuff!

--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is Black Hole!

David W.E. Roberts wrote:
"sPoNiX" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 2 Apr 2004 12:11:36 +0100, "Neil Jones"
wrote:
snip
I'd also wondered about building a generator that runs off mains
water pressure...granted it wouldn't be enough to power the whole
house but it *should* power the lighting.

sPoNiX

A turbine in the soil pipe could also recover some of that expended
energy :-)

Would make an interesting talking point with guests when the lights suddenly
increase in brightness for a few secs.

--
James...
www.jameshart.co.uk

Neil Jones typed:



What you want is a steam turbine.
Heat the water with a gas jet.



Sort of miniature power station in my garden shed? What's involved and
is this really a practical consideration?

I keep a steam powered generator on my farm, we were 4 weeks without elec
back in 89 so some sort of back-up was essential its also a wood burner so
doesn't cost anything to run, just lots of Kw/mh keeping it fed. ;-(

Neil Jones wrote:

As I was thinking about backup power the other day the following train
of thought occurred to me:-

1. Generators are available powered by diesel or petrol

2. Petrol car engines are easily converted to run on LPG

3. My gas hob is easily switched between natural gas and LPG

So I was wondering whether or not it is possible to get a petrol
generator running off LPG, and if so, could it be further converted to
run off mains gas?

No plans to actually implement this but I'd be interested if it's
technically possible/prohibitively expensive/specifically precluded by
regulation etc.



You can run almost any IC engine of almost anything really. It just
takes some fooling with the fuel system.

However running a system designed to inject liquid fuel, on

e.g. piped gas at low pessure, would not be trivial.



Thanks

Neil

John Schmitt wrote:

On Fri, 2 Apr 2004 15:05:01 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


Running an IC genny 24/7 is highly uneconomical, umnless al the power and
heat is being used or stored.


Wrong. Even without the generous government grants, for large installations (which is where
I said they were viable) there are consistent savings to be made.

www.est.org.uk/communityenergy/images/ uploaded/documents/ACFPLBwLaq7D.doc

The HE sector is moving into CHP in a relatively big way. Not surprising really, as some
of the bigger players in the sector have student populations comparable to that of Gibraltar.

http://www.clarke-energy.co.uk/dundee.htm

Is but one example. It is far better to keep the engine running, with scheduled downtime.
Think about automotive engines and the most common reasons cars fail to do what they are
supposed to. Correct: B*gg*r wont start! Also the lubrication is constant, and the load is
stable so that wear is minimised. At least one sewage works I know of goes one stage farther
and obtains all their hot water and one third of their electricity from methane derived from
their sludge digesters. This also has the advantage of giving them skeleton power to keep the
plant going until the rest of their gensets come on stream if the mains goes.

John Schmitt




CHP may actually be a hugely green source of power. In Addenbrookes
hospital, Cambridge thay have an incinerator alreeady for presumably
used dressings etc. Or possible illegal immigrants. Who knows?
Hooking up some water heating and and electricity generation to such is
not beyond the wit of man.

IMM wrote:


It all depends on usage. Light usage, which is most domestic if you heat,
cook and DHW on gas, it is best to use the battery method topping up when
required. You are right in that the best usage is from large users. But
the inefficiencies of the IC engines is still there.





Not with CHP, because the waste heat isn't wasted.
Also an IC engine at constant load cand be rin far more efficiently than
one that is starting and stopping all the time.

David W.E. Roberts wrote:

"Neil Jones" wrote in message
...

As I was thinking about backup power the other day the following train
of thought occurred to me:-

1. Generators are available powered by diesel or petrol

2. Petrol car engines are easily converted to run on LPG

3. My gas hob is easily switched between natural gas and LPG

So I was wondering whether or not it is possible to get a petrol
generator running off LPG, and if so, could it be further converted to
run off mains gas?

No plans to actually implement this but I'd be interested if it's
technically possible/prohibitively expensive/specifically precluded by
regulation etc.

Thanks

Neil


What you want is a steam turbine.
Heat the water with a gas jet.



Or a model jet turbine. These run typically off propane to start anyway.

This way of burning natural gas (gas turbine) is I think already in use
in some CHP power stations.

Set Square wrote:

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Neil Jones wrote:


"David W.E. Roberts" wrote in message
...

"Neil Jones" wrote in message
...

snip

What you want is a steam turbine.
Heat the water with a gas jet.



Sort of miniature power station in my garden shed? What's involved
and is this really a practical consideration?

The thought was prompted by memories of a country show where there
were loads of old small stationary steam engines.

They did all sorts of things including generating electricity.

AFAICS it wouldn't be difficult to convert a coal fired steam engine
to run on gas.

Steam turbine was one step further (too far?).

A steam engine with a rotating flywheel could drive a generator no
problem - a lot of older rural houses had diesel gennies which AFAIR
were in two parts - engine and generator.

Not as whizzo efficient as a modern petrol generator, I presume, but
a quaint and interesting power source none the less :-)


Certainly would be a talking-point!



Actually, I'd like to be able to generate *all* my electricity from gas -
not just in an emergency. Bearing in mind that the marginal cost per kWHr of
(on peak) electricity is 3.6 times that of gas, I would save on fuel costs
as long as the overall conversion efficiency was more than about 27.5%


Definitely possible with 50 grands worth of gas turbine and generator

Do a google on 'natural gas turbine CHP'

Lots of stuff out there.

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
IMM wrote:


It all depends on usage. Light usage, which is most domestic if you
heat,
cook and DHW on gas, it is best to use the battery method topping up
when
required. You are right in that the best usage is from large users.
But
the inefficiencies of the IC engines is still there.

Not with CHP, because the waste heat isn't wasted.

You also have the inferior combustion process of the IC engine. An external
combustion unit: steam, Stirling are far better in this respect.

Also an IC engine at constant load cand be rin far more efficiently than
one that is starting and stopping all the time.

It depends on how often it starts and stops. A well designed system will
prevent unnecessary cycling. Lubrication can be taken care of by the oil
store under pressure which instantly give oil to all the bearings.

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
John Schmitt wrote:

On Fri, 2 Apr 2004 15:05:01 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


Running an IC genny 24/7 is highly uneconomical, umnless al the power
and
heat is being used or stored.


Wrong. Even without the generous government grants, for large
installations (which is where
I said they were viable) there are consistent savings to be made.

www.est.org.uk/communityenergy/images/
uploaded/documents/ACFPLBwLaq7D.doc

The HE sector is moving into CHP in a relatively big way. Not surprising
really, as some
of the bigger players in the sector have student populations comparable
to that of Gibraltar.

http://www.clarke-energy.co.uk/dundee.htm

Is but one example. It is far better to keep the engine running, with
scheduled downtime.
Think about automotive engines and the most common reasons cars fail to
do what they are
supposed to. Correct: B*gg*r wont start! Also the lubrication is
constant, and the load is
stable so that wear is minimised. At least one sewage works I know of
goes one stage farther
and obtains all their hot water and one third of their electricity from
methane derived from
their sludge digesters. This also has the advantage of giving them
skeleton power to keep the
plant going until the rest of their gensets come on stream if the mains
goes.

John Schmitt

CHP may actually be a hugely green source of power. In Addenbrookes
hospital, Cambridge thay have an incinerator alreeady for presumably
used dressings etc. Or possible illegal immigrants. Who knows?
Hooking up some water heating and and electricity generation to such is
not beyond the wit of man.

Last week a North London borough said it will fine people who do not
re-cycle. On TV an expert was arguing the point that re-cycling as a waste
of time and uneconomical. He said that burning the waste is the best option
all around: landfill, reduces fossil fuel usage, local heating of houses,
etc, and that emissions are well within the regs pointing to the defra web
site. His argument was well reasoned. He said re-cycling came about through
the German Green parties who mistakenly thought it a good thing. The Greens
became powerful forcing it through in Germany, who then forced it through
the EU. No one has seriously question the re-cycling claims.

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Set Square wrote:

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Neil Jones wrote:


"David W.E. Roberts" wrote in message
...

"Neil Jones" wrote in message
...

snip

What you want is a steam turbine.
Heat the water with a gas jet.



Sort of miniature power station in my garden shed? What's involved
and is this really a practical consideration?

The thought was prompted by memories of a country show where there
were loads of old small stationary steam engines.

They did all sorts of things including generating electricity.

AFAICS it wouldn't be difficult to convert a coal fired steam engine
to run on gas.

Steam turbine was one step further (too far?).

A steam engine with a rotating flywheel could drive a generator no
problem - a lot of older rural houses had diesel gennies which AFAIR
were in two parts - engine and generator.

Not as whizzo efficient as a modern petrol generator, I presume, but
a quaint and interesting power source none the less :-)


Certainly would be a talking-point!



Actually, I'd like to be able to generate *all* my electricity from
gas -
not just in an emergency. Bearing in mind that the marginal cost per
kWHr of
(on peak) electricity is 3.6 times that of gas, I would save on fuel
costs
as long as the overall conversion efficiency was more than about 27.5%


Definitely possible with 50 grands worth of gas turbine and generator

Do a google on 'natural gas turbine CHP'

Lots of stuff out there.

Ludicrous. Off the shelf piston and Stirling engines/gennys are run off
natural gas.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
David W.E. Roberts wrote:

"Neil Jones" wrote in message
...

As I was thinking about backup power the other day the following
train of thought occurred to me:-

1. Generators are available powered by diesel or petrol

2. Petrol car engines are easily converted to run on LPG

3. My gas hob is easily switched between natural gas and LPG

So I was wondering whether or not it is possible to get a petrol
generator running off LPG, and if so, could it be further converted
to run off mains gas?

No plans to actually implement this but I'd be interested if it's
technically possible/prohibitively expensive/specifically precluded
by regulation etc.

Thanks

Neil


What you want is a steam turbine.
Heat the water with a gas jet.



Or a model jet turbine. These run typically off propane to start
anyway.

This way of burning natural gas (gas turbine) is I think already in
use in some CHP power stations.

Can be used for cooling as well, http://www.asciimation.co.nz/beer/

--
James...
www.jameshart.co.uk

On Fri, 2 Apr 2004 17:16:56 +0100, "David W.E. Roberts"
wrote:


"Neil Jones" wrote in message
...
snip
Certainly would be a talking-point!


See http://www.bioenergy.org/chandp.html for steam turbines powered by
natural gas.

Started to Google, but as usual p*ssed off by the number of referral engines
cluttering the place up.

Try adding -kelkoo -dealtime etc to your search.

cheers,
Pete.

On Sat, 3 Apr 2004 09:50:47 +0100, "IMM" wrote:

Last week a North London borough said it will fine people who do not
re-cycle.

Any references to this?

On TV an expert was arguing the point that re-cycling as a waste
of time and uneconomical. He said that burning the waste is the best option
all around: landfill, reduces fossil fuel usage, local heating of houses,
etc, and that emissions are well within the regs pointing to the defra web
site. His argument was well reasoned.

I would have thought recycling glass bottles and aluminium cans saves
more energy than created by incinerating them, even recycling paper is
likely to give a net energy saving. Also it's hard to see how
incinerating something can create less landfill than recycling it,
which creates no landfill at all. Did the 'experts' well reasoned
argument cover all this....?

cheers,
Pete.

On 3 Apr 2004 17:53:56 GMT, (Huge) wrote:

Pete C writes:
On Sat, 3 Apr 2004 09:50:47 +0100, "IMM" wrote:

Last week a North London borough said it will fine people who do not
re-cycle.

Any references to this?

It's the London Borough of Barnet.

Pointless waste of time & money, IMNHO.

Classical example of political correctness having precedence over
common sense.

The photos of the trucks emptying the recycling into the landfill
would be worth a bob or two though.....


..andy

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