I bought three new_old_stock Buck Bros. bench chisels ('60's) just to have
a few in the largest sizes, from http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/, these are
hardened to RC 59.

The blade was sharpened and back-lapped from 220-320-600-1200 papers
for both sides, strictly by hand because my basic honing guide does not hold
thick blades, I know I did it accurately though.

I cleaned up tenon cheeks (meaning not the tenons themselves), the end-flats
around the tenons that is, the wood is doug fir. I used the 2" Buck and a
26mm Stubai bench chisel.

But when in use, the Buck took on some nick-burs to the point where it needs
a complete new honing after only [one_session_of_many_strokes] with a
mallet!!! These burs are sharp enought to feel.

The Stubai chisel was used on the same job for a bit more time than the Buck
with some equally hard slamming and it took on no nick-burs in the cutting
edge, these are hardened to RC 60. Superior steel from Austria?

I can tell the Buck steel is decent, as it leaves a non gummy medium grey
powder on the paper, the Stubai leaves a non gummy, very light colored grey
powder (On yellow 220 AO from Norton).

Does anyone suspect I should get a refund on these Bucks? Pictures are on
ABPW with the title " Buck Bros. Chisels " (for searching through the illegal
mess). Thanks much for any advise but please take all factors of mine into
account...?

--
Alex
cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/

"AAvK" wrote in message
news:6pPXd.89$KK5.46@fed1read03...


Does anyone suspect I should get a refund on these Bucks? Pictures are on
ABPW with the title " Buck Bros. Chisels " (for searching through the
illegal
mess). Thanks much for any advise but please take all factors of mine into
account...?


This is precisely the type of question that one should ask of the
manufacturer themselves and not a usenet newsgroup Alex. Bet you'll get a
faster, more accurate answer there.
--

-Mike-

This is precisely the type of question that one should ask of the
manufacturer themselves and not a usenet newsgroup Alex. Bet you'll get a
faster, more accurate answer there.
-Mike-



Oh yeah?... you think I should call the Riverlin Works and ask all about it and
whether or not I should get a refund???

--
Alex
cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/

"AAvK" wrote in message
news:mymYd.6875$KK5.316@fed1read03...

This is precisely the type of question that one should ask of the
manufacturer themselves and not a usenet newsgroup Alex. Bet you'll get
a
faster, more accurate answer there.
-Mike-



Oh yeah?... you think I should call the Riverlin Works and ask all about
it and
whether or not I should get a refund???


Well, I suspect either they or the retailer would be able to better advise
you on refunds than a newsgroup can.
--

-Mike-

"AAvK" wrote in message
news:6pPXd.89$KK5.46@fed1read03...

I bought three new_old_stock Buck Bros. bench chisels ('60's) just to have
a few in the largest sizes, from http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/, these
are
hardened to RC 59.

The blade was sharpened and back-lapped from 220-320-600-1200 papers
for both sides, strictly by hand because my basic honing guide does not
hold
thick blades, I know I did it accurately though.

I cleaned up tenon cheeks (meaning not the tenons themselves), the
end-flats
around the tenons that is, the wood is doug fir. I used the 2" Buck and a
26mm Stubai bench chisel.

But when in use, the Buck took on some nick-burs to the point where it
needs
a complete new honing after only [one_session_of_many_strokes] with a
mallet!!! These burs are sharp enought to feel.

The Stubai chisel was used on the same job for a bit more time than the
Buck
with some equally hard slamming and it took on no nick-burs in the cutting
edge, these are hardened to RC 60. Superior steel from Austria?

I can tell the Buck steel is decent, as it leaves a non gummy medium grey
powder on the paper, the Stubai leaves a non gummy, very light colored
grey
powder (On yellow 220 AO from Norton).

Does anyone suspect I should get a refund on these Bucks? Pictures are on
ABPW with the title " Buck Bros. Chisels " (for searching through the
illegal
mess). Thanks much for any advise but please take all factors of mine into
account...?

--
Alex
cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/
I have to ask. What kind of slamming did you do to the chisels. I keep
reading similar posts in the news group. I conclude that the wood is very
hard or . . .

I'm not an expert, but I have built two rocking chairs with over 40 m&t
joints each, using blue handled marples bench chisels and never had that
kind of problem. One chair was walnut and the other was mesquite.

I'm curious if technique might have some bearing on all these bad chisels we
keep hearing about. (Not you, but many other wood workers)

Having written the nonsense above, FWW has a video by Jim Cummings, "Small
Shop. Tips and Techniques". It deals with many things, one of which is
sharpening chisels and includes a very good session on removing the temper
from the steel, shaping the steel as required and then setting the proper
temper.

Also as I re-read my post, I'll add the following.

I keep a leather strop, charged with a sharpening compound close at hand.
When an edge develops a burr, a couple of passes on the strop normally takes
care of it. I don't use scary sharp techniques. I prefer diamond EZ-lap
hones. I suppose I expect chisels to turn under with use.
I think the burring issue is why many wood workers use micro bevels.
I typically do not use them, but on one of my hand planes I do use it.

:-)

Lowell Holmes wrote:
"AAvK" wrote in message
news:6pPXd.89$KK5.46@fed1read03...

I bought three new_old_stock Buck Bros. bench chisels ('60's) just
to have
a few in the largest sizes, from http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/,
these
are
hardened to RC 59.

...
But when in use, the Buck took on some nick-burs to the point where
it
needs
a complete new honing after only [one_session_of_many_strokes] with
a
mallet!!! These burs are sharp enought to feel.



I'm not an expert, but I have built two rocking chairs with over 40
m&t
joints each, using blue handled marples bench chisels and never had
that
kind of problem. One chair was walnut and the other was mesquite.


The typical complaint about Marples is the opposite of his complaint
about the vintage Bucks. Marples tend not to hold an edge implying
that they are too soft, hence the frequent honing you reccommend.

Perhpas the Buck should be ground to a steeper angle. Unless they
paring chisels in which case you shouldn't pound on them in the
first place.

--

FF

wrote in message
oups.com...


The typical complaint about Marples is the opposite of his complaint
about the vintage Bucks. Marples tend not to hold an edge implying
that they are too soft, hence the frequent honing you reccommend.

Perhpas the Buck should be ground to a steeper angle. Unless they
paring chisels in which case you shouldn't pound on them in the
first place.

--

FF


That was my point. If the chisels are adequately sharp, you don't need to
"pound" on them. I use a wooden mallet when making mortises. I never have
to pound on them to chop the mortises. It doesn't require that kind of
force. I have old wooden handled Stanleys, more modern plastic handled
Stanleys, wooden handled Soligan steel, Robert Sorby, Marples, and some
others. None of them require heavy handling.

If the chisel is burring when it is used, I'd think the steel tends to be
more ductile, if it chips, more brittle.

However, having said all that dumb stuff G, I keep reading posts about
people destroying their chisels. I just wonder what they are doing to cause
that, Tag Frid didn't pound his and in the videos I've watched, Frank Klausz
gives them a sharp rap, but nothing destructive. Rob Cosman doesn't beat his
either. It is a re-occurring complaint though.

I think I remember someone complained about Two Cherry's, and you can find
detractors for all those I mentioned.

That was my point. If the chisels are adequately sharp, you don't need to
"pound" on them. I use a wooden mallet when making mortises. I never have to pound on them to chop the mortises. It doesn't
require that kind of force. I have old wooden handled Stanleys, more modern plastic handled Stanleys, wooden handled Soligan
steel, Robert Sorby, Marples, and some others. None of them require heavy handling.

If the chisel is burring when it is used, I'd think the steel tends to be more ductile, if it chips, more brittle.

However, having said all that dumb stuff G, I keep reading posts about people destroying their chisels. I just wonder what they
are doing to cause that, Tag Frid didn't pound his and in the videos I've watched, Frank Klausz gives them a sharp rap, but
nothing destructive. Rob Cosman doesn't beat his either. It is a re-occurring complaint though.

I think I remember someone complained about Two Cherry's, and you can find detractors for all those I mentioned.


Try a Stubai chisel, superlative. But, have you ever chopped into douglas fir?
It has grain that is seriously thick with a rubber-like hardness. You'd wind up
doing a bit of slamming.

The Stubai, as I said, did not take burs. I think when I used the 2" Buck chisel it
was the wideness of the blade causing too much resistance, the Stubai being only
1" (26mm). Same reasoning behind making a proper low angle block plane's
blade 1-3/8" wide rather than 1-5/8" wide, less resistance on end grain.

As with chopping into the DF wood, these were the "cheeks" that are around the
tenons, which is end grain. Very tough stuff.

--
Alex
cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/

"AAvK" wrote in message
news:USmYd.6878$KK5.3120@fed1read03...


Try a Stubai chisel, superlative. But, have you ever chopped into douglas
fir?
It has grain that is seriously thick with a rubber-like hardness. You'd
wind up
doing a bit of slamming.

The Stubai, as I said, did not take burs. I think when I used the 2" Buck
chisel it
was the wideness of the blade causing too much resistance, the Stubai
being only
1" (26mm). Same reasoning behind making a proper low angle block plane's
blade 1-3/8" wide rather than 1-5/8" wide, less resistance on end grain.

As with chopping into the DF wood, these were the "cheeks" that are around
the
tenons, which is end grain. Very tough stuff.

--
Alex
cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/

I'm not sure what DF wood is. I have a scrap of fir in the shop. I'll have
to chop a large mortise in it to see how it goes.

When I build wooden fence gates, I put a header across the gate posts at 90"
above grade. I make the connections in the 4"treated pine M&T joints. I was
using a 2" carpenter's slick but some previous owner has lost the wooden
handle and generations have struck the steel socket with a steel hammer. I
decided this both dangerous and sacrilegious. I went to the local hardware
man and purchased a 2" plastic handled Stanley no. 60 (recent manufacture)
After giving it the treatment, the chisel performed reasonably well chopping
mortises in the treated pine (with it's wet stringy fibers).

My strop is a piece of rawhide glued to a flat board. I have a "brick" of
wax impregnated with aluminum oxide. The strop is charged with this
compound. This waxy surface will almost polish the edge to a mirror sheen. I
wouldn't want to use a nice horsehide strop in that manner either. Each of
us use the sharpening technique we like and I certainly was not impugning
those that scary sharpen their tools. :-)

I think obviously you are not satisfied with the Buck Brothers chisels. With
you having examined the conditions surrounding their use, I think
conversation with the people that sold them to you would be appropriate, to
determine if they thought your set is defective. I would be inclined to take
some of the hardness out of your chisels and see if it made an acceptable
difference. See the Jim Cummings tape to learn the technique.

I hope you get it worked out. :-)

The typical complaint about Marples is the opposite of his complaint
about the vintage Bucks. Marples tend not to hold an edge implying
that they are too soft, hence the frequent honing you reccommend.

Perhpas the Buck should be ground to a steeper angle. Unless they
paring chisels in which case you shouldn't pound on them in the
first place.


I definitely got the micro bevel steep enough... these chisels are the bench
chisels,made by Buck Bros. in the 60's sold as new old stock, RC 59.

--
Alex
cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/

AAvK wrote:
The typical complaint about Marples is the opposite of his complaint
about the vintage Bucks. Marples tend not to hold an edge implying
that they are too soft, hence the frequent honing you reccommend.

Perhpas the Buck should be ground to a steeper angle. Unless they
paring chisels in which case you shouldn't pound on them in the
first place.



I definitely got the micro bevel steep enough... these chisels are the bench
chisels,made by Buck Bros. in the 60's sold as new old stock, RC 59.

How do you know how hard they are? Your photos of the edges over in the
binaries group show all the signs of too-soft steel. If they were really
RC 59 I'd think they'd be more likely to chip the edge than curl it.
That would be true even if they were sharpened too acutely to use with a
mallet, like paring chisels.

If you're relying on what Buck Bros told you about the hardness, well. .

--RC

How do you know how hard they are? Your photos of the edges over in the
binaries group show all the signs of too-soft steel. If they were really RC 59 I'd think they'd be more likely to chip the edge
than curl it. That would be true even if they were sharpened too acutely to use with a mallet, like paring chisels.

If you're relying on what Buck Bros told you about the hardness, well. .

--RC

I only know by what http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/ says about them.
RC 59. But thanks for the tip... neither Buck Bros. nor the Riverlin works
has a website. You are saying stuff without reading the rest of the thread
brudda...

--
Alex
cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/

I have to ask. What kind of slamming did you do to the chisels. I keep
reading similar posts in the news group. I conclude that the wood is very hard or . . .

"Slamming" as in a manner of speaking, using the chisel with a mallet.

I'm not an expert, but I have built two rocking chairs with over 40 m&t joints each, using blue handled marples bench chisels and
never had that kind of problem. One chair was walnut and the other was mesquite.

Those are tauted to be made with decent steel anyway.

I'm curious if technique might have some bearing on all these bad chisels we keep hearing about. (Not you, but many other wood
workers)

Any use of a chisel has bearing on it.

Having written the nonsense above, FWW has a video by Jim Cummings, "Small Shop. Tips and Techniques". It deals with many things,
one of which is sharpening chisels and includes a very good session on removing the temper from the steel, shaping the steel as
required and then setting the proper temper.

Also as I re-read my post, I'll add the following.

I keep a leather strop, charged with a sharpening compound close at hand. When an edge develops a burr, a couple of passes on the
strop normally takes care of it. I don't use scary sharp techniques. I prefer diamond EZ-lap hones. I suppose I expect chisels to
turn under with use.
I think the burring issue is why many wood workers use micro bevels.
I typically do not use them, but on one of my hand planes I do use it.

I am doing the "Scary Sharp" method, works fantastic, and I know how to
do it quite well. I wouldn't want to scratch up my expensive strop leather
(I have horse butt hide) with those burs.

My original question really meant: "Is it normal and acceptable that these
chisels are doing this...???" ...kind of thing.

On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 19:45:10 -0800, "AAvK" wrote:


I bought three new_old_stock Buck Bros. bench chisels ('60's) just to have
a few in the largest sizes, from http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/, these are
hardened to RC 59.

The blade was sharpened and back-lapped from 220-320-600-1200 papers
for both sides, strictly by hand because my basic honing guide does not hold
thick blades, I know I did it accurately though.

I cleaned up tenon cheeks (meaning not the tenons themselves), the end-flats
around the tenons that is, the wood is doug fir. I used the 2" Buck and a
26mm Stubai bench chisel.

But when in use, the Buck took on some nick-burs to the point where it needs
a complete new honing after only [one_session_of_many_strokes] with a
mallet!!! These burs are sharp enought to feel.

The Stubai chisel was used on the same job for a bit more time than the Buck
with some equally hard slamming and it took on no nick-burs in the cutting
edge, these are hardened to RC 60. Superior steel from Austria?

I can tell the Buck steel is decent, as it leaves a non gummy medium grey
powder on the paper, the Stubai leaves a non gummy, very light colored grey
powder (On yellow 220 AO from Norton).

Does anyone suspect I should get a refund on these Bucks? Pictures are on
ABPW with the title " Buck Bros. Chisels " (for searching through the illegal
mess). Thanks much for any advise but please take all factors of mine into
account...?


once, in the distant past, buck made nice edge tools. that time is
long gone.

you might try giving them a few more honings- if the factory grind
burned the steel you will need to hone past it.

at best you'll end up with a decent utility set.

once, in the distant past, buck made nice edge tools. that time is
long gone.

you might try giving them a few more honings- if the factory grind
burned the steel you will need to hone past it.

at best you'll end up with a decent utility set.

No... these are new_old_stock Buck Bros. bench chisels. If you go to
http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/ you'll read the story there. Quite a
nice find really. These blades were made in the 60's and were found
in factory storage at The Riverlin Works. I use the "Scary Sharp"
method.

--
Alex
cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/

On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 12:13:05 -0800, "AAvK" wrote:


once, in the distant past, buck made nice edge tools. that time is
long gone.

you might try giving them a few more honings- if the factory grind
burned the steel you will need to hone past it.

at best you'll end up with a decent utility set.

No... these are new_old_stock Buck Bros. bench chisels. If you go to
http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/ you'll read the story there. Quite a
nice find really. These blades were made in the 60's and were found
in factory storage at The Riverlin Works. I use the "Scary Sharp"
method.


ayup. sorry about that, brain fart.

I'd still not give up on them based on the first honing.

ayup. sorry about that, brain fart.
I'd still not give up on them based on the first honing.


Thanks but nothing was based on the first honing, I did just fine.

--
Alex
cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/

AAvK wrote:
once, in the distant past, buck made nice edge tools. that time is
long gone.

you might try giving them a few more honings- if the factory grind
burned the steel you will need to hone past it.

at best you'll end up with a decent utility set.


No... these are new_old_stock Buck Bros. bench chisels. If you go to
http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/ you'll read the story there. Quite a
nice find really. These blades were made in the 60's and were found
in factory storage at The Riverlin Works. I use the "Scary Sharp"
method.


From the web site: "Today, 140 years later, quality chisels are still
produced at the Riverlin Works."

Danger! Danger Will Robinson!

I don't think I'd trust these people.

--RC

From the web site: "Today, 140 years later, quality chisels are still
produced at the Riverlin Works."
Danger! Danger Will Robinson!
I don't think I'd trust these people. --RC

Oh why oh why pray tell? What do you know that everyone else doesn't?
Is that Riverlin works long gone?

Take a look at the Deifenbacher website, he sells chisels that are his own
brand, and are as well identical to these Bucks. They are still being produced
(Bill Kohr could be fibbing in which case...who knows), site:
http://www.diefenbacher.com/Chiselink.htm

This concerning craftsmanstudio.com for what he says about his Bucks is
something to think about.

AAvK wrote:
From the web site: "Today, 140 years later, quality chisels are still
produced at the Riverlin Works."
Danger! Danger Will Robinson!
I don't think I'd trust these people. --RC


Oh why oh why pray tell? What do you know that everyone else doesn't?
Is that Riverlin works long gone?

Because Buck Brothers has been making absolute crap for years. Any
merchant who would praise the quality of their current tools is, shall
we say, suspect.

--RC

I have several Buck Brothers chisels. They work great when framing
projects present the need. I use other brands in the woodshop.
Mark

"AAvK" wrote in message
news:6pPXd.89$KK5.46@fed1read03...

I bought three new_old_stock Buck Bros. bench chisels ('60's) just to have
a few in the largest sizes, from http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/, these
are
hardened to RC 59.

The blade was sharpened and back-lapped from 220-320-600-1200 papers
for both sides, strictly by hand because my basic honing guide does not
hold
thick blades, I know I did it accurately though.

I cleaned up tenon cheeks (meaning not the tenons themselves), the
end-flats
around the tenons that is, the wood is doug fir. I used the 2" Buck and a
26mm Stubai bench chisel.

But when in use, the Buck took on some nick-burs to the point where it
needs
a complete new honing after only [one_session_of_many_strokes] with a
mallet!!! These burs are sharp enought to feel.

The Stubai chisel was used on the same job for a bit more time than the
Buck
with some equally hard slamming and it took on no nick-burs in the cutting
edge, these are hardened to RC 60. Superior steel from Austria?

I can tell the Buck steel is decent, as it leaves a non gummy medium grey
powder on the paper, the Stubai leaves a non gummy, very light colored
grey
powder (On yellow 220 AO from Norton).

Does anyone suspect I should get a refund on these Bucks? Pictures are on
ABPW with the title " Buck Bros. Chisels " (for searching through the
illegal
mess). Thanks much for any advise but please take all factors of mine into
account...?

--
Alex
cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/