I used a spray gun attached to my air compressor (who knew? I thought
all that thing was good for was to blow sawdust out the garage door) to
put 10 coats of 1# (approximately--Zinsser store-bought, you see) cut
on a blanket chest I bought for my wife. I somehow or other managed to
load up the finish in a couple of spots, and I'm feeling some
apprehension about a few things.

1. Did I put on _too_much_ shellac? I passed the point at which the
wood grain of the cedar was, um, still visible. What I mean to say is
that viewed from a very oblique angle, the finish looks like poly, or
epoxy, or whatever. Except, that is, for the orange peel.

2. If I can fix it, how do I do it? I realize that I can just rub it
out with denatured alcohol until all of the shellac is off the wood,
then start over. However, I would rather not do that.

2a. If I wet sand (presumably with 400 grit and mineral spirits) right
through the finish, how hard is it to match the finish? There's no
stain on the chest, it was raw cedar, so I don't have to worry about
that.

3. Can I spray a coat or several of maybe 1/4# cut with the hope that
all the alcohol will somehow flatten out the finish?

4. Will a few coats of wax fill in the small voids in the orange
peeled finish?

5. Am I just screwed?

What I was looking for, originally, was a dead flat, shiny finish for
this blanket chest. I would hope that that's what I can still get from
what I have. Is that a reasonable expectation for shellac? I'm sort
of flying blind here, as I'm new to the whole shellac thing.

-Phil Crow

P.S. The damnable thing about polyurinestain is that it ain't very
pretty, but at least it's predictable (to me, at least).

In article .com,
wrote:

2. If I can fix it, how do I do it? I realize that I can just rub it
out with denatured alcohol until all of the shellac is off the wood,

Why don't you just try rubbing it with a pad dampened with DNA until
it's smooth? Swat Eydoo.

It's crazy enough that it could work...

And then stop spraying the stuff. It's SO easy to pad it on.

--
"The thing about saying the wrong words is that A, I don't notice it, and B,
sometimes orange water gibbon bucket and plastic." -- Mr. Burrows

wrote in message
oups.com...
I used a spray gun attached to my air compressor (who knew? I thought
all that thing was good for was to blow sawdust out the garage door) to
put 10 coats of 1# (approximately--Zinsser store-bought, you see) cut
on a blanket chest I bought for my wife. I somehow or other managed to
load up the finish in a couple of spots, and I'm feeling some
apprehension about a few things.

1. Did I put on _too_much_ shellac? I passed the point at which the
wood grain of the cedar was, um, still visible. What I mean to say is
that viewed from a very oblique angle, the finish looks like poly, or
epoxy, or whatever. Except, that is, for the orange peel.

First off - orange peel only happens one way. Your first coat or two were
too dry. It may be because of poor atomization of your gun, or it may be
from poor technique. Bottom line - too dry. You end up with little bumps
of material on the wood with lots of spaces between them. Next thing you do
is put more coats on and it starts to fill in the spaces, but it also builds
up on the bumps. As you build up coats, it flows together a bit and you end
up with those gorgeous orange peel finishes. To prevent this, practice with
your gun (read the directions that came with it and set it up properly).
Learn to spread on a layer of finish rather than fog on coats. The delicate
balance is in laying down a nice wet coat without getting runs. Practice
makes perfect, but wet coats finish smoothly, dry coats don't.


2. If I can fix it, how do I do it? I realize that I can just rub it
out with denatured alcohol until all of the shellac is off the wood,
then start over. However, I would rather not do that.

2a. If I wet sand (presumably with 400 grit and mineral spirits) right
through the finish, how hard is it to match the finish? There's no
stain on the chest, it was raw cedar, so I don't have to worry about
that.

400 is too coarse. Start with 1000 and moderate elbow grease. See how it
goes. Don't rush it, keep sanding and use a sanding block to keep the
sandpaper nice and flat to the surface. Try wrapping your sandpaper around
a paint stirrer and use it. You should be able to knock down a lot of
orange peel with 1000, but if it's not going down, then move down to maybe
800 or so. Be careful in how fast you move down in grit though or you'll
burn through your finish. No need to do that. Sand it down until it's as
flat as you want. You can get it all the way down to the low points (the
craters) of the orange peel with no risk, but once you hit the bottom of the
craters, you shouldn't push any further. Wet sanding helps keep the paper
from clogging up so bad and makes the cutting more consistent.


3. Can I spray a coat or several of maybe 1/4# cut with the hope that
all the alcohol will somehow flatten out the finish?

Maybe - I really don't know how shellac reacts. Try it with one wet coat
and see what it does. The worst that can happen is that you go the route of
sanding it.


4. Will a few coats of wax fill in the small voids in the orange
peeled finish?

Bad approach. Get your finish where you want it and then add wax.


5. Am I just screwed?

Nope. You're just not done yet.


What I was looking for, originally, was a dead flat, shiny finish for
this blanket chest. I would hope that that's what I can still get from
what I have. Is that a reasonable expectation for shellac? I'm sort
of flying blind here, as I'm new to the whole shellac thing.


Dead flat huh? Well, then wrap that sandpaper around a paint stick and grab
a small bucket of water and get sanding. Flatten it out nice and then rub
it out with a rubbing compound to get it back to the level of shine you
want.


--

-Mike-

My understanding is sand to level then spray for final coat OR start
rubbing the dull level sanded finish if the build is adequate.
Shellac is like lacquer in new coats meld with previous into one
contiguous finish.

On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 23:40:40 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

3. Can I spray a coat or several of maybe 1/4# cut with the hope that
all the alcohol will somehow flatten out the finish?

Maybe - I really don't know how shellac reacts. Try it with one wet coat
and see what it does. The worst that can happen is that you go the route of
sanding it.

"nospambob" wrote in message
...
My understanding is sand to level then spray for final coat OR start
rubbing the dull level sanded finish if the build is adequate.
Shellac is like lacquer in new coats meld with previous into one
contiguous finish.

That's basically what I said in the other part of my comments that you
snipped. I realize I made it a bit confusing by posting the comment below
and then elaborating more later on, about how to deal with orange peel. My
bad.

--

-Mike-





On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 23:40:40 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

3. Can I spray a coat or several of maybe 1/4# cut with the hope that
all the alcohol will somehow flatten out the finish?

Maybe - I really don't know how shellac reacts. Try it with one wet coat
and see what it does. The worst that can happen is that you go the route
of
sanding it.

On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 22:28:55 -0600, Dave Balderstone
wrote:

In article .com,
wrote:

2. If I can fix it, how do I do it? I realize that I can just rub it
out with denatured alcohol until all of the shellac is off the wood,

Why don't you just try rubbing it with a pad dampened with DNA until
it's smooth? Swat Eydoo.

It's crazy enough that it could work...

And then stop spraying the stuff. It's SO easy to pad it on.

Welllll..... I'm still trying to get it to pad on without ridges and
streaks. I know I'm doing *something* wrong, but I haven't figured it
out yet.

Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com

Wasn't chucking spears but trying to use different words for same end
result.

On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:31:02 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:


"nospambob" wrote in message
.. .
My understanding is sand to level then spray for final coat OR start
rubbing the dull level sanded finish if the build is adequate.
Shellac is like lacquer in new coats meld with previous into one
contiguous finish.

That's basically what I said in the other part of my comments that you
snipped. I realize I made it a bit confusing by posting the comment below
and then elaborating more later on, about how to deal with orange peel. My
bad.

In article , Tim Douglass
wrote:

Welllll..... I'm still trying to get it to pad on without ridges and
streaks. I know I'm doing *something* wrong, but I haven't figured it
out yet.

How heavy a cut are you using?

--
"The thing about saying the wrong words is that A, I don't notice it, and B,
sometimes orange water gibbon bucket and plastic." -- Mr. Burrows

On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 17:35:56 -0600, Dave Balderstone
wrote:

In article , Tim Douglass
wrote:

Welllll..... I'm still trying to get it to pad on without ridges and
streaks. I know I'm doing *something* wrong, but I haven't figured it
out yet.

How heavy a cut are you using?

About 1 1/2, it is Zinser (sp?) 3 lb cut about 50%. I try to wipe a
very thin coat, but I get too much drag unless the pad is wet, rather
than damp. At that point it is laying down a layer that is thick
enough to show the marks of the pad. I'm going to try thinning it to
less than 1lb tonight to try to get this thing finished.

If I want to sand to get a smooth surface before this (hopefully) last
coat, some have suggested wet sanding with mineral oil, others with
water(?), others let it dry thoroughly and dry sand. Any thoughts?

Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com

In article , Tim Douglass
wrote:

About 1 1/2, it is Zinser (sp?) 3 lb cut about 50%. I try to wipe a
very thin coat, but I get too much drag unless the pad is wet, rather
than damp. At that point it is laying down a layer that is thick
enough to show the marks of the pad. I'm going to try thinning it to
less than 1lb tonight to try to get this thing finished.

If I want to sand to get a smooth surface before this (hopefully) last
coat, some have suggested wet sanding with mineral oil, others with
water(?), others let it dry thoroughly and dry sand. Any thoughts?

I'm no expert... I've just finished my first padding a few weeks ago.

I used about a 1.5 lb cut of the Lee Valley orange flakes mixed with
denatured ethanol, and kept the pad wet rather than damp. Wet, wet,
wet.

For sanding, I used a 3M 180 grit foam pad very, very, very lightly
after about every 3 or 4 coats had cured for several hours to
overnight.

I don't know what the Zinser is like. My mix was fairly fresh (about 4
months old, but stored in the dark in my (cool temp) basement shop.

Hopefully someone who knows more than I do will jump in about now.

djb

--
"The thing about saying the wrong words is that A, I don't notice it, and B,
sometimes orange water gibbon bucket and plastic." -- Mr. Burrows

Mike Marlow wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...
I used a spray gun attached to my air compressor (who knew? I
thought
all that thing was good for was to blow sawdust out the garage
door) to
put 10 coats of 1# (approximately--Zinsser store-bought, you see)
cut
on a blanket chest I bought for my wife. I somehow or other
managed to
load up the finish in a couple of spots, and I'm feeling some
apprehension about a few things.

1. Did I put on _too_much_ shellac? I passed the point at which
the
wood grain of the cedar was, um, still visible. What I mean to say
is
that viewed from a very oblique angle, the finish looks like poly,
or
epoxy, or whatever. Except, that is, for the orange peel.

First off - orange peel only happens one way. Your first coat or two
were
too dry. It may be because of poor atomization of your gun, or it
may be
from poor technique. Bottom line - too dry. You end up with little
bumps
of material on the wood with lots of spaces between them. Next thing
you do
is put more coats on and it starts to fill in the spaces, but it also
builds
up on the bumps. As you build up coats, it flows together a bit and
you end
up with those gorgeous orange peel finishes. To prevent this,
practice with
your gun (read the directions that came with it and set it up
properly).
Learn to spread on a layer of finish rather than fog on coats. The
delicate
balance is in laying down a nice wet coat without getting runs.
Practice
makes perfect, but wet coats finish smoothly, dry coats don't.


As a spraying newbie, how do I know how wet is too wet? My guess is to
cut the spit out of the shellac and spray it on so thick it _almost_
runs, but if I knew what I was talking about, I wouldn't be here right
now, would I?


2. If I can fix it, how do I do it? I realize that I can just rub
it
out with denatured alcohol until all of the shellac is off the
wood,
then start over. However, I would rather not do that.

2a. If I wet sand (presumably with 400 grit and mineral spirits)
right
through the finish, how hard is it to match the finish? There's no
stain on the chest, it was raw cedar, so I don't have to worry
about
that.

400 is too coarse. Start with 1000 and moderate elbow grease. See
how it
goes. Don't rush it, keep sanding and use a sanding block to keep
the
sandpaper nice and flat to the surface. Try wrapping your sandpaper
around
a paint stirrer and use it. You should be able to knock down a lot
of
orange peel with 1000, but if it's not going down, then move down to
maybe
800 or so. Be careful in how fast you move down in grit though or
you'll
burn through your finish. No need to do that. Sand it down until
it's as
flat as you want. You can get it all the way down to the low points
(the
craters) of the orange peel with no risk, but once you hit the bottom
of the
craters, you shouldn't push any further. Wet sanding helps keep the
paper
from clogging up so bad and makes the cutting more consistent.


I'm assuming water is the appropriate solvent for wet sanding, based on
your comments, or is mineral spirits a better wet sanding medium? The
reason I ask is that, from my very limited shellac knowledge, water is
like, well, water. You know, grain raising, not playing well with
other finishes, etc.


3. Can I spray a coat or several of maybe 1/4# cut with the hope
that
all the alcohol will somehow flatten out the finish?

Maybe - I really don't know how shellac reacts. Try it with one wet
coat
and see what it does. The worst that can happen is that you go the
route of
sanding it.


4. Will a few coats of wax fill in the small voids in the orange
peeled finish?

Bad approach. Get your finish where you want it and then add wax.


5. Am I just screwed?

Nope. You're just not done yet.


What I was looking for, originally, was a dead flat, shiny finish
for
this blanket chest. I would hope that that's what I can still get
from
what I have. Is that a reasonable expectation for shellac? I'm
sort
of flying blind here, as I'm new to the whole shellac thing.


Dead flat huh? Well, then wrap that sandpaper around a paint stick
and grab
a small bucket of water and get sanding. Flatten it out nice and
then rub
it out with a rubbing compound to get it back to the level of shine
you
want.


Rubbing compound? Would that be the same rubbing compound I would use
on my car? Or is there a WW compound that works better or faster or
whatever? Regarding dead flat, is that what folks are looking for
(sometimes) when they decide to use shellac? In the future, would
lacquer maybe be a better idea for a flat finish? Not knowing the
difference, and having some shellac and a spray gun (a truly dangerous
combination indeed!) I figured I'd give it a try.


--

-Mike-


Thanks, Mike, for all the help. I sure appreciate it.

-Phil Crow

wrote in message
oups.com...

Hey Phil - I'll preceed everything I have to say by saying that I don't
finish with shelac so my comments are strictly related to spray painting
techniques and practices. Others can augment what I have to say by bringing
shelac specific knowledge to the conversation. A lot of these things are
universal, so the discussion is meaningful.


As a spraying newbie, how do I know how wet is too wet? My guess is to
cut the spit out of the shellac and spray it on so thick it _almost_
runs, but if I knew what I was talking about, I wouldn't be here right
now, would I?

This would be a universal question. You are right in that a good wet coat
is on the verge of wanting to sag or run. But... it won't because you
didn't put it on that heavy. Nice and even. Think of it as spreading
plastic wrap over your workpiece. You want to envision yourself doing
exactly that with your spray gun. It will take practice to develop the
ability, but the key is to be able to watch your spray going on. You can't
do this stuff by feel until you've spray painted for a good long time. Even
then, because of an infinate number of variables like humidity, temperature,
etc. you will find that you have to always watch the spray pattern going on
the workpiece. This means good lighting. Don't take a shortcut on the
lighting. No shadows, no glare, good well lit work area. Make sure each
pass just overlaps the previous pass and it creates a growing wet surface
without overlapping too much and creating an area that is too wet and sags,
or that is too far apart and creates a dry line. The edges of your spray
pattern out of your gun are dryer than the cigar shaped center of the spray
pattern. This works to your advantage. The top of your first pass will be
a little dryer than the center of it, but when you overlap slightly on the
second pass - with a slightly dryer bottom to the pattern than it's center,
the overlapped area ends up receiving essentially the same amount of paint
as the center of the spray pattern. Am I making sense? You should be able
to watch your "plastic wrap" grow as you make your passes up the workpiece.
Nice and even in wetness and texture. No dry spots and no heavy spots.
Study your owners manual for your gun. It will give you valuable
information on tip sizes for various viscosity materials. Live by that
information until you develop spraying skills.

Practice on scraps. Lay some down flat and experiment. Your owners manual
will tell you about setting up your gun. You'll need to adjust the spray
pattern for a nice cigar shaped fan and you'll need to set your needle for
proper atomization. The later is very interactive and dependent upon the
pressure setting. Hold your gun about 6" from a vertical piece of scrap and
as quickly as possible, just pull the trigger all the way and immediately
let off. You should typically have a pattern that is about 8-10" high and
maybe 3" wide. The pattern should be a vertical eliptical shape - or cigar
shaped, nicely rounded and defined - not a blob. The edges should fade out
to nothing. You should not have an evenly wet cigar. The fade is rather
abrupt - not a gentle fade. So - you have a nice wet center that is maybe
7-9" high and 2 inches wide and it fades a half inch or so on each side.
Depending on your gun you may not be able to hit those dimensions, but you
get the jist.

Practice by pulling the trigger all the way and developing the speed that is
right for making a nice wet, shiney spray pattern across the scrap. Make a
few passes - overlapping each other to achieve an nice even coverage.
That's your first focus point. Always pull full on the trigger and use
speed to regulate your coverage as you move across the piece. There are
times when you will fog with less than a full trigger pull, but this
requires a careful eye to fog and watch build up until it hits the right
level. Not for the intial practice. Concentrate on developing a body
rhythm. After you get a feel for this - and it will take you a few scraps
of wood, move on to trying the same thing on a vertical piece of wood.
You'll find - as you probably assume, that you have to speed up a bit
because the vertical piece will sag quickly with the same amount of material
as the horizontal piece accepted. Just keep thinking about stretching
plastic wrap and watch the material go on the workpiece.

It may not seem worth it all and in fact for some pieces, it probably is not
worth spraying. There's cleanup and all that stuff to contend with when you
spray. But... for other pieces, you just cannot beat a sprayed finish.
When you want it, you need to know how to do it.


I'm assuming water is the appropriate solvent for wet sanding, based on
your comments, or is mineral spirits a better wet sanding medium? The
reason I ask is that, from my very limited shellac knowledge, water is
like, well, water. You know, grain raising, not playing well with
other finishes, etc.

I tend to use the term water when referring to wet sanding out of habit.
Others like to use mineral spirits and for woodworking I'm sure it's fine.
I would not worry about raising grain, as that becomes less of an issue as
buildup happens. Once you seal the wood well you should not have a problem
with raised grain. If you prefer mineral spirits though, it should work
just as well. Forget the stuff about mineral spirits lubricating better
than water, as I've read here. There's not a lubrication issue in wet
sanding. The liquid does help cutting as it keeps the paper from clogging,
but water will do this every bit as good as anything else. Most wet sanding
is done by hand and there just isn't going to be a friction issue in that
case, and even wet sanding with a DA or a ROS (not sure what a fan I would
be of that), if done properly - slowly, will not create friction issues if
done with just water. So - pick your poison. Either one will work.
Again - with respect to shelac, others may have some input relative to it
that I would have to defer to.


Rubbing compound? Would that be the same rubbing compound I would use
on my car? Or is there a WW compound that works better or faster or
whatever? Regarding dead flat, is that what folks are looking for
(sometimes) when they decide to use shellac? In the future, would
lacquer maybe be a better idea for a flat finish? Not knowing the
difference, and having some shellac and a spray gun (a truly dangerous
combination indeed!) I figured I'd give it a try.


Yes - you can use the same rubbing compound that one would use on a car. I
have lots of it around here, so that's what I use. Others use compounds and
materials that I'm not familiar with and they seem to like the results.
They'd have to offer their comments on this practice - I'm just not familiar
with anything besides good old 3M rubbing compound.

Shellac and lacquer give two different finishes. Again - I'm not well
versed in the use of shellac so the other guys can chime in, but as I
understand it, shellac does not really seal - it more fills. As I
understand it you typically overcoat shellac with a sealer of some sort.
Lacquer is a sealer. It fills by build up in a way similar to what shellac
does, but it also seals. For dead flat I would probably go with just
lacquer as long as the look of lacquer is what I was after. I wouldn't
bother using anything else to fill the grain since the lacquer is fully
capable of doing that and subsequent coats will provide the buildup. I'd
lay it on as smoothly as I could and then I'd either wet sand it with 1000
or 1500 and buff it out, or if I sprayed a nice smooth coat I'd skip the wet
sanding. All that said - that's only to answer your specific question about
shellac vs. lacquer. Then there's oils, etc. We won't go there for now...

I just got done spraying a '52 Dodge over the weekend. Some of the panels
came out like glass and I'm just going to bolt them back on the car. Some
panels orange peeled a bit due to some problems I had with my gun. I'll
knock those down a bit with 1000 and then buff them out. There's just no
absolute rules. Sometimes it all just comes together and the dust gods
aren't paying attention to you and you end up with a really nice, ready to
go finish. Sometimes it just don't work that way. Other times you want the
protection of a particular finish - for example, lacquer, but you really
don't want a high gloss plastic look. So - you knock it down with steel
wool to flatten it back. There's just a ton of options.

Hope this helped.

--

-Mike-

Have seen suggested lightly sand off ridges using a flat block backing
for sandpaper and when build is adequate lightly sand for uniform
dullnes with no glossy spots then apply a thin coat that will level
well, let cure then start rubbing for sheen wanted. Menzerna
polishing compounds available from www.homesteadfinishing.com are
awsome.

On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 11:42:49 -0800, Tim Douglass
wrote:

On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 22:28:55 -0600, Dave Balderstone
wrote:

In article .com,
wrote:

2. If I can fix it, how do I do it? I realize that I can just rub it
out with denatured alcohol until all of the shellac is off the wood,

Why don't you just try rubbing it with a pad dampened with DNA until
it's smooth? Swat Eydoo.

It's crazy enough that it could work...

And then stop spraying the stuff. It's SO easy to pad it on.

Welllll..... I'm still trying to get it to pad on without ridges and
streaks. I know I'm doing *something* wrong, but I haven't figured it
out yet.

Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com

On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 19:40:35 -0600, Dave Balderstone
wrote:

In article , Tim Douglass
wrote:

About 1 1/2, it is Zinser (sp?) 3 lb cut about 50%. I try to wipe a
very thin coat, but I get too much drag unless the pad is wet, rather
than damp.
[...snip...]

Hopefully someone who knows more than I do will jump in about now.

djb

I'm not an expert, but I can do a search on Google Groups. Here are
directions from "Paddy Odeen" about how to do this. He posts on
rec.woodworking about shellac issues now and again:

===

Cut your shellac to #1.5. This should be plenty thin for wiping, which
is what I always recommend for beginners. Heck, it's what I recommend
for everyone. Yes, you can brush shellac. Yes, beginners can brush
shellac. Yes, beginners almost always have a spazz when attempting to
brush shellac, especially thick cuts. Don't ask me how I know this.
Take
an old sock; wool or cotton will work. Get a piece of an old pillow
case
or table cloth and wad it around the sock, pulling it tight so there
are
no wrinkles on one side. Dip it in a bowl of your
#1.5 cut of spiffy shellac. Squeeze it out until it's just damp.
You're
wearing vinyl gloves, aren't you? Good. Now wipe the pad on the scrap.
Take s short break. Count some nose hairs in the back of a finely
polished chisel blade. Then wipe some more. Repeat.

When the pad begins to streak, do the dip-and-squeeze trick in your
bowl
of shellac. When the pad begins to stick to the workpiece, use a
couple
drops of mineral or raw linseed oil on the outside of the pad to lube
it. When the shellac is dry, the oil will clean off with mineral
spirits.

Let the shellac dry a couple days, come back, and mebbe one of these
geniuses will tell ya how to rub it out to a glassy or satiny sheen...
whichever is yer fancy. If we can't locate a polishing genius, we'll
then I'll be back. Best of luck.
Hope this helped.
Paddy

In article , Jim Weisgram
wrote:

I'm not an expert, but I can do a search on Google Groups.

ROFL!

Paddy posted a link to a short vid demonstrating his technique a cupla
weeks back.

--
"The thing about saying the wrong words is that A, I don't notice it, and B,
sometimes orange water gibbon bucket and plastic." -- Mr. Burrows

On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 17:22:00 GMT, Jim Weisgram
wrote:

On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 19:40:35 -0600, Dave Balderstone
wrote:

In article , Tim Douglass
wrote:

About 1 1/2, it is Zinser (sp?) 3 lb cut about 50%. I try to wipe a
very thin coat, but I get too much drag unless the pad is wet, rather
than damp.
[...snip...]

Hopefully someone who knows more than I do will jump in about now.

djb

I'm not an expert, but I can do a search on Google Groups. Here are
directions from "Paddy Odeen" about how to do this. He posts on
rec.woodworking about shellac issues now and again:

Yep. That's exactly the instructions I am trying to follow and it
isn't working out too well. I've been messing around with shellac on
a couple of projects now and really love the color and such, but I
simply *cannot* seem to get anything approaching a smooth surface.
I'm about to give up and just slap on some poly to get this project
finished. I've been trying to get a decent finish on it for 3 weeks
now and it still looks lousy.

Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com

On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 12:01:55 -0600, Dave Balderstone
wrote:

In article , Jim Weisgram
wrote:

I'm not an expert, but I can do a search on Google Groups.

ROFL!

Paddy posted a link to a short vid demonstrating his technique a cupla
weeks back.

Hmm. I missed that. I'll have to try and find it to see if I can
figure out what is going on.

Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com

On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 12:01:55 -0600, Dave Balderstone
wrote:

In article , Jim Weisgram
wrote:

I'm not an expert, but I can do a search on Google Groups.

ROFL!

Paddy posted a link to a short vid demonstrating his technique a cupla
weeks back.

Is this the one:

http://www.klownhammer.org/movies/wiping.mov

That looks exactly like what I'm doing, but I end up with all this
little ridges in the finish so it doesn't have that smooth, level,
shiny look. I just set about wet sanding it all back down flat and
will try one more time.

This is starting to **** me off...

Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com

In article , Tim Douglass
wrote:

Is this the one:

http://www.klownhammer.org/movies/wiping.mov

That looks exactly like what I'm doing, but I end up with all this
little ridges in the finish so it doesn't have that smooth, level,
shiny look. I just set about wet sanding it all back down flat and
will try one more time.

This is starting to **** me off...

That's the one.

I can appreciate how frustrated you must be, but if you do what Paddy
does you shouldn't have any problems.

I'm a total newbie when it comes to fine finishing of anything, but
when I padded shellac on my most recent project is was a dream come
true.

I folded the pad, wet it with ethyl, then squirted the shellac from a
(for lac g of a better word) mustard squirt bottle and wiped away.

After a number of coats I let it sit for 24 hours, barely touched it
with a 180 grit 3M pad, then padded again.

That simple.

I'll take some pix of the current project and post them to abpw, and I
can set the camera up and film it if it would help...

--
"The thing about saying the wrong words is that A, I don't notice it, and B,
sometimes orange water gibbon bucket and plastic." -- Mr. Burrows

Tim Douglass wrote:

simply *cannot* seem to get anything approaching a smooth surface.
I'm about to give up and just slap on some poly to get this project
finished. I've been trying to get a decent finish on it for 3 weeks
now and it still looks lousy.

Could always just use a brush. Works for me. Brush and sand, repeat about
10 times and enjoy. The results are fantastic, and I can't see how a
French polish could be any more luxurious to behold. Faster way to get
there, arguably that could well be true, but I'll go head to head against
anybody on the final results. Shellac is very forgiving, and you can take
as long as you need to get it where you want to be.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/

On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 17:49:00 -0600, Dave Balderstone
wrote:

In article , Tim Douglass
wrote:

Is this the one:

http://www.klownhammer.org/movies/wiping.mov

That looks exactly like what I'm doing, but I end up with all this
little ridges in the finish so it doesn't have that smooth, level,
shiny look. I just set about wet sanding it all back down flat and
will try one more time.

This is starting to **** me off...

That's the one.

I can appreciate how frustrated you must be, but if you do what Paddy
does you shouldn't have any problems.

I sanded the bad parts down and it is actually looking better. I can't
seem to get it perfectly smooth, but it is probably good enough for
what I'm doing. I think I may be using too much pressure, because the
parts I wiped real lightly seem to look pretty good, but the parts
that I was rubbing it on sort of hard are where the problems are.

I'm a total newbie when it comes to fine finishing of anything, but
when I padded shellac on my most recent project is was a dream come
true.

I folded the pad, wet it with ethyl, then squirted the shellac from a
(for lac g of a better word) mustard squirt bottle and wiped away.

After a number of coats I let it sit for 24 hours, barely touched it
with a 180 grit 3M pad, then padded again.

That simple.

I'll take some pix of the current project and post them to abpw, and I
can set the camera up and film it if it would help...

I think it is going to work this time, but I appreciate the offer. A
bit more oil seems to be a part of the solution as well. Either way
I'm going to finish this thing up start of the week.

Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com

On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 20:44:24 -0500, Silvan
wrote:

Tim Douglass wrote:

simply *cannot* seem to get anything approaching a smooth surface.
I'm about to give up and just slap on some poly to get this project
finished. I've been trying to get a decent finish on it for 3 weeks
now and it still looks lousy.

Could always just use a brush. Works for me. Brush and sand, repeat about
10 times and enjoy. The results are fantastic, and I can't see how a
French polish could be any more luxurious to behold. Faster way to get
there, arguably that could well be true, but I'll go head to head against
anybody on the final results. Shellac is very forgiving, and you can take
as long as you need to get it where you want to be.

My last attempt with shellac was with a brush - that disaster made
this one look pretty good. It still hasn't really been fixed, but it
looks fine from a couple feet away and anyone who looks closer is
going to deserve to see what they see. The whole plan with padding was
that it was supposed to eliminate the brush marks so I wouldn't have
to sand all the time. No brush marks, but I have a lot of pad marks,
which are shallower and easier to sand out...

Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com

looks fine from a couple feet away and anyone who looks closer is
going to deserve to see what they see. The whole plan with padding was
that it was supposed to eliminate the brush marks so I wouldn't have
to sand all the time. No brush marks, but I have a lot of pad marks,
which are shallower and easier to sand out...


I'm a novice with shellac, but the few times I have tried it I've used a
cheap brush with some Zinser #3 orange right out of the can. Never had a
problem with brush marks. The only uneven-ness I've seen was on an antique
oak top desk where the grain of the wood stood out.

This leads me to wonder if maybe you have some shellac that has gone bad?

-sam

Tim Douglass wrote:

My last attempt with shellac was with a brush - that disaster made
this one look pretty good. It still hasn't really been fixed, but it
looks fine from a couple feet away and anyone who looks closer is
going to deserve to see what they see. The whole plan with padding was
that it was supposed to eliminate the brush marks so I wouldn't have
to sand all the time. No brush marks, but I have a lot of pad marks,
which are shallower and easier to sand out...

When applying shellac I apply 3-5 coats and then lightly block sand to level the
surface using either 220 or 400 grit (depending on how bad I screwed up). I'll
then apply additional coats leveling the surface by block sanding at approx.
every third coat. After applying the final coat I use a felt block to rub out
the finish with "FF" pumice and mineral oil followed by "FFFF" pumice. If a
higher sheen is desired I'll continue using rubbing the finish out rottenstone.

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
(Remove "SPAM" from email address to reply)

Tim Douglass wrote in
:

On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 17:49:00 -0600, Dave Balderstone
wrote:

In article , Tim Douglass
wrote:

Is this the one:

http://www.klownhammer.org/movies/wiping.mov

That looks exactly like what I'm doing, but I end up with all this
little ridges in the finish so it doesn't have that smooth, level,
shiny look. I just set about wet sanding it all back down flat and
will try one more time.

This is starting to **** me off...

That's the one.

I can appreciate how frustrated you must be, but if you do what Paddy
does you shouldn't have any problems.

I sanded the bad parts down and it is actually looking better. I can't
seem to get it perfectly smooth, but it is probably good enough for
what I'm doing. I think I may be using too much pressure, because the
parts I wiped real lightly seem to look pretty good, but the parts
that I was rubbing it on sort of hard are where the problems are.

I'm a total newbie when it comes to fine finishing of anything, but
when I padded shellac on my most recent project is was a dream come
true.

I folded the pad, wet it with ethyl, then squirted the shellac from a
(for lac g of a better word) mustard squirt bottle and wiped away.

After a number of coats I let it sit for 24 hours, barely touched it
with a 180 grit 3M pad, then padded again.

That simple.

I'll take some pix of the current project and post them to abpw, and I
can set the camera up and film it if it would help...

I think it is going to work this time, but I appreciate the offer. A
bit more oil seems to be a part of the solution as well. Either way
I'm going to finish this thing up start of the week.

Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com


I'm getting here late, Tim, but I've been where you seem to be, with the
shellac thing.

Things I've found:

* About a 1.5 to 2 lb cut seems to work best for me. Heavier = bad.
Lighter, I haven't learned to control it well, except for early coats.

* I make sure _not_ to drip anything on the surface, if I can help it.

* Fiddling with the surface, or 'brushing back', such as I would do to
get an even surface with an enamel paint, is a bad thing.

* Once the surface starts to 'tack', I have to leave it alone, no matter
what my inner child is screaming. Patience is not hereditary in my gene
pool, evidently.

* this last bit is more important with objects which are small, and, by
their nature, invite handling and close inspection. The inside surfaces
of a shop cabinet are a different story. As is a workbench which will
actually see work.

* Most importantly, 'sanding' should be most properly described as
'leveling', at least in my lexicon. 400-600 grit works best for me, the
goal being to identify where the problems might be.

Good luck. Take and post pictures.

Patriarch

Once the build is thick enough sand level with a smooth backing board.
Then pad a thin coat. Let cure then start rubbing out for sheen
wanted. Careful at edges where shellac has pulled away leaving a
thinner coat.

On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 11:37:21 -0800, Tim Douglass
wrote:

On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 17:22:00 GMT, Jim Weisgram
wrote:

On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 19:40:35 -0600, Dave Balderstone
wrote:

In article , Tim Douglass
wrote:

About 1 1/2, it is Zinser (sp?) 3 lb cut about 50%. I try to wipe a
very thin coat, but I get too much drag unless the pad is wet, rather
than damp.
[...snip...]

Hopefully someone who knows more than I do will jump in about now.

djb

I'm not an expert, but I can do a search on Google Groups. Here are
directions from "Paddy Odeen" about how to do this. He posts on
rec.woodworking about shellac issues now and again:

Yep. That's exactly the instructions I am trying to follow and it
isn't working out too well. I've been messing around with shellac on
a couple of projects now and really love the color and such, but I
simply *cannot* seem to get anything approaching a smooth surface.
I'm about to give up and just slap on some poly to get this project
finished. I've been trying to get a decent finish on it for 3 weeks
now and it still looks lousy.

Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com

On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 10:39:28 -0600, Patriarch
wrote:


I'm getting here late, Tim, but I've been where you seem to be, with the
shellac thing.

Things I've found:

* About a 1.5 to 2 lb cut seems to work best for me. Heavier = bad.
Lighter, I haven't learned to control it well, except for early coats.

I'm OK there. By my figuring I'm using a 1 1/2 lb cut.

* I make sure _not_ to drip anything on the surface, if I can help it.

I learned that finally.

* Fiddling with the surface, or 'brushing back', such as I would do to
get an even surface with an enamel paint, is a bad thing.

This seems to be a big thing. It seems like I pretty much get one
whack at it and then need to leave it alone.

* Once the surface starts to 'tack', I have to leave it alone, no matter
what my inner child is screaming. Patience is not hereditary in my gene
pool, evidently.

I have that patience problem myself.

* this last bit is more important with objects which are small, and, by
their nature, invite handling and close inspection. The inside surfaces
of a shop cabinet are a different story. As is a workbench which will
actually see work.

* Most importantly, 'sanding' should be most properly described as
'leveling', at least in my lexicon. 400-600 grit works best for me, the
goal being to identify where the problems might be.

Leveling seems to be what is needed. I have gathered from people in
here that you pretty much can expect to have to sand/polish to get
that perfectly flat surface. I am more conditioned to varnishes where
you can brush them on and they will level while they dry. Shellac
definitely doesn't do that.

Good luck. Take and post pictures.

Depending on how it comes out the pictures may be from close or far
away.

Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com

On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 10:31:11 -0500, Nova
wrote:

Tim Douglass wrote:

My last attempt with shellac was with a brush - that disaster made
this one look pretty good. It still hasn't really been fixed, but it
looks fine from a couple feet away and anyone who looks closer is
going to deserve to see what they see. The whole plan with padding was
that it was supposed to eliminate the brush marks so I wouldn't have
to sand all the time. No brush marks, but I have a lot of pad marks,
which are shallower and easier to sand out...

When applying shellac I apply 3-5 coats and then lightly block sand to level the
surface using either 220 or 400 grit (depending on how bad I screwed up). I'll
then apply additional coats leveling the surface by block sanding at approx.
every third coat. After applying the final coat I use a felt block to rub out
the finish with "FF" pumice and mineral oil followed by "FFFF" pumice. If a
higher sheen is desired I'll continue using rubbing the finish out rottenstone.

I think this is my problem. I'm expecting the wiped surface to be
smooth and shiny when you actually have to sand and polish to get that
look.

Where do you find felt blocks for rubbing out. I'm sure they're
available, but I don't consciously recall seeing them for sale either
in a store or catalog.

Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com

Tim Douglass wrote:

Where do you find felt blocks for rubbing out. I'm sure they're
available, but I don't consciously recall seeing them for sale either
in a store or catalog.

The last one was purchase at Rockler:

http://www.rockler.com/ecom7/product...erings_id=2184

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
(Remove "SPAM" from email address to reply)

Tim Douglass wrote in
:

snip

The shellac I bought most recently included a quart of Jeff Jewitt's liquid
5 lb cut, extra pale, German refined product. Not only is it excellent bug
spit, it goes from shipped product to ready-to-pad in about as long as it
takes to measure the two liquids and shake. Highly recommended.

I'm going to try some dipping for a toys-for-kids project the woodworking
club is getting ready to run. There are some neat designs for early years
projects that can be done in short production run processes. The sort of
batch processes that a woodworker can do between dinner and the late news.
If the simple finishing process can be dye stain by dipping, dry, and
shellac coating by dipping and drying, that would keep it simple and 'food
safe'. Otherwise, Critter-spraying.

Love these projects!

Patriarch

Do yourself a favor and try the Menzerna polishing stuff. I got some
from www.homesteadfinishing.com and now the pumice and rottenstone sit
on the shelf waiting to be tossed.

On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 17:24:19 -0800, Tim Douglass
wrote:

On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 10:31:11 -0500, Nova
wrote:

Tim Douglass wrote:

My last attempt with shellac was with a brush - that disaster made
this one look pretty good. It still hasn't really been fixed, but it
looks fine from a couple feet away and anyone who looks closer is
going to deserve to see what they see. The whole plan with padding was
that it was supposed to eliminate the brush marks so I wouldn't have
to sand all the time. No brush marks, but I have a lot of pad marks,
which are shallower and easier to sand out...

When applying shellac I apply 3-5 coats and then lightly block sand to level the
surface using either 220 or 400 grit (depending on how bad I screwed up). I'll
then apply additional coats leveling the surface by block sanding at approx.
every third coat. After applying the final coat I use a felt block to rub out
the finish with "FF" pumice and mineral oil followed by "FFFF" pumice. If a
higher sheen is desired I'll continue using rubbing the finish out rottenstone.

I think this is my problem. I'm expecting the wiped surface to be
smooth and shiny when you actually have to sand and polish to get that
look.

Where do you find felt blocks for rubbing out. I'm sure they're
available, but I don't consciously recall seeing them for sale either
in a store or catalog.

Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com

Mike Marlow wrote:

Snippage of GOOD HELP

Hope this helped.

--

-Mike-


It sure did. I had an emergency side job to do, so I didn't even touch
the blanket chest until last night. Just like you said, wet sand with
1k grit, rather vigorous rub-down with burlap (I didn't have any
compound) and 2 coats of wax. The top looks like a freakin mirror.
Admittedly, it looks a little plastic, but I'm so proud of being able
to make it look that way, I think I'll leave it.

Armed with my new spraygun knowledge, I plan to do some sprayin' on
some scrap soon to improve my technique. To quote the old adage, "How
do you get to your own show on PBS?"

"Practice."

Anyhow, thanks a blanket chest full, Mike.

-Phil Crow

wrote in message
oups.com...

Mike Marlow wrote:

Snippage of GOOD HELP

Hope this helped.

--

-Mike-


It sure did. I had an emergency side job to do, so I didn't even touch
the blanket chest until last night. Just like you said, wet sand with
1k grit, rather vigorous rub-down with burlap (I didn't have any
compound) and 2 coats of wax. The top looks like a freakin mirror.
Admittedly, it looks a little plastic, but I'm so proud of being able
to make it look that way, I think I'll leave it.

Armed with my new spraygun knowledge, I plan to do some sprayin' on
some scrap soon to improve my technique. To quote the old adage, "How
do you get to your own show on PBS?"

"Practice."

Anyhow, thanks a blanket chest full, Mike.

I love it when a plan comes together. Great job Phil.
--

-Mike-