I read in my Building Kitchen Cabinets book that the face frame should
be aligned so that it's flush with the inside bottom of the case.
However looking around Home Expo all their cabinets have about a 1/4"
lip between the face frame and the cabinet bottom (and it's like that
in our current cabinets). Thoughts ?

Shoot for close to flush; say less than 1/32" higher than the bottom of
the cabinet. Perfectly flush is a mark of attention to detail and some
cabinetmakers make the FF flush with the bottom as a matter of course.
Others leave it a bit higher.

David

damian penney wrote:

I read in my Building Kitchen Cabinets book that the face frame should
be aligned so that it's flush with the inside bottom of the case.
However looking around Home Expo all their cabinets have about a 1/4"
lip between the face frame and the cabinet bottom (and it's like that
in our current cabinets). Thoughts ?

It's a production thing. If you are building fine furniture you design
the edges to be exactly together and hand plane them to an exact smooth
finish, gently creating razor thin curls of wood as classiscal music
wafts slowly through the shop.

In the real world, you design them with a 1/4 overlap so as long as you
get withing 3/16 it's all good baby and you bang it on with your nail
gun as Howard Stern blasts out of the raspy stereo speakers in the
corner.

In article .com,
says...
I read in my Building Kitchen Cabinets book that the face frame should
be aligned so that it's flush with the inside bottom of the case.
However looking around Home Expo all their cabinets have about a 1/4"
lip between the face frame and the cabinet bottom (and it's like that
in our current cabinets). Thoughts ?


I make mine flush because I like them that way and I'd like to think I
turn out a far better cabinet then what you'll find at Home Expo but,
when you come right down to it, it really doesn't make a hell of a lot
of difference in the functionality of the cabinet.


--
Mike G.
Heirloom Woods

www.heirloom-woods.net

"Mike G" wrote in message
ews.com...

I make mine flush because I like them that way and I'd like to think I
turn out a far better cabinet then what you'll find at Home Expo but,
when you come right down to it, it really doesn't make a hell of a lot
of difference in the functionality of the cabinet.


Be kind to SWMBO, if the frame is not flush it leaves a little place for
crud to catch. If flush, it is much easier to wipe clean.

--

Roger Shoaf

About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then
they come up with this striped stuff.

I read in my Building Kitchen Cabinets book that the face frame
should
be aligned so that it's flush with the inside bottom of the case.
However looking around Home Expo all their cabinets have about a
1/4"
lip between the face frame and the cabinet bottom (and it's like
that
in our current cabinets). Thoughts ?


I make mine flush because I like them that way and I'd like to think
I
turn out a far better cabinet then what you'll find at Home Expo but,

when you come right down to it, it really doesn't make a hell of a
lot
of difference in the functionality of the cabinet.

I guess I'm not getting this. To make it flush would mean the width of
the face frame at the bottom would be no more than 3/4" (the thickness
of the wood it is covering). Isn't that right?

In article .com, " wrote:

I guess I'm not getting this. To make it flush would mean the width of
the face frame at the bottom would be no more than 3/4" (the thickness
of the wood it is covering). Isn't that right?

Flush just on the inner edge of the face frame. The frame can be as wide as
you like.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter
by sending email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com
You must use your REAL email address to get a response.

Doug Miller wrote:
In article .com,
" wrote:

I guess I'm not getting this. To make it flush would mean the width
of
the face frame at the bottom would be no more than 3/4" (the
thickness
of the wood it is covering). Isn't that right?

Flush just on the inner edge of the face frame. The frame can be as
wide as
you like.

Ok, but you'd have a big edge of the face frame hanging over the edge
of the cabinet, right?
Any pics to demonstrate what this might look like?

In article .com, " wrote:

Doug Miller wrote:
In article .com,
" wrote:

I guess I'm not getting this. To make it flush would mean the width
of
the face frame at the bottom would be no more than 3/4" (the
thickness
of the wood it is covering). Isn't that right?

Flush just on the inner edge of the face frame. The frame can be as
wide as
you like.

Ok, but you'd have a big edge of the face frame hanging over the edge
of the cabinet, right?

Yes. So what? That's the way the bottom rail of most cabinets is attached
anyway.

Any pics to demonstrate what this might look like?

Looks like a normal cabinet.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter
by sending email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com
You must use your REAL email address to get a response.

wrote in message
oups.com...


Ok, but you'd have a big edge of the face frame hanging over the edge
of the cabinet, right?
Any pics to demonstrate what this might look like?


=========||

In the above, assume the == line is the bottom of the cabinet and the ||
line is the face frame. The face frame is usually about 1 1/2 inches and
the bottom of the cabinet is usually 3/4 inch. In a base cabinet there is
no problem since the lower part of the face frame stands clear of the floor,
and on a wall cabinet the overhang is no problem either as the face frame
just hangs down a little.

Note I could not figure out how to get the top of the || to be flush with
the top of the == so use your imagination here. Also if you look at the
cabinets in your kitchen or bathroom you can probably see it in real life.

--

Roger Shoaf

About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then
they come up with this striped stuff.

wrote in message

Any pics to demonstrate what this might look like?

OK ... Here's a cabinet with the 1/8th" lip.

Sorry about the focus (new camera, and all that) and the white in the
cabinet corners are artifacts/reflection from the camera flash, but it will
give you an idea of the subject.

http://www.e-woodshop.net/files/cablip.jpg

The bottom rail is coming toward you ... the "lip" between the top of the
FF rail and the floor of the cabinet is, in this case, subtle, but present.

As far as the much mentioned "cleaning" aspect of a subtle lip like this, it
has never been a problem IME, and I'd bet that anyone with actual experience
with this "design element" will verify that is rarely the case.

As in all cases, ymmv

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/04

wrote in message
oups.com...
I guess I'm not getting this. To make it flush would mean the width of
the face frame at the bottom would be no more than 3/4" (the thickness
of the wood it is covering). Isn't that right?


There is nothing stopping you from and wrong with the face frame extending
past the bottom of the cabinet floor into the toe kick area. Typically the
bottom of my Face Frames are 1"- 1 1/4" wide, extending past the bottom of
the cabinet floor about 1/4" - 3/4".

"damian penney" wrote in message
I read in my Building Kitchen Cabinets book that the face frame should
be aligned so that it's flush with the inside bottom of the case.
However looking around Home Expo all their cabinets have about a 1/4"
lip between the face frame and the cabinet bottom (and it's like that
in our current cabinets). Thoughts ?

Anybody can do flush. I leave an elegant 1/8th" lip ... it is a "mark of
distinction" to me, and I defy you to find a better built cabinet.

IOW ... go with what you like and don't worry what others say. ;)

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/04

Okay, thanks guys, personally I like them flush so I'll shoot for that,
knowing my luck they will end 1/8" lower than the bottom though...

"damian penney" wrote in message
Okay, thanks guys, personally I like them flush so I'll shoot for that,
knowing my luck they will end 1/8" lower than the bottom though...


Just keep in mind that you will then have to "edge band" your shelf paper.


--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/04

Do you use biscuits to maintain flush? I find it works great.

That is how I was planning on getting it flush, yes.

In article , says...
Do you use biscuits to maintain flush? I find it works great.




Lately I've taken to an entirely different way to get perfect fitting
face frames.

I cut and dry fit the rails and stiles making one stile is slightly over
sized in width. I cut biscuits for the joints in the face frame then I
glue and clamp one of the stiles in place on the carcass. That one I
flush too the side of the carcass. When the glue has set up I apply glue
and insert the biscuits and fit the rails glue and clamp them down to
the carcass. Since each is hand laid they are easily placed flush with
the shelves. When that glue is set up I apply the second over sized
stile in the same manner and when the glue has dried I use a flush cut
bit to trim it flush to the carcass.

Due to clamp time it takes a couple of hours longer to do it that way
but the result is a perfectly fitting face frame every time with no rush
to fix things if I find I happened to maybe cut a rail a tad shy or
proud or something thing isn't exactly square, it happens to all of us.

Note, I use the second stile with clamps but without glue to close the
joints between the first stile and the rails.

--
Mike G.
Heirloom Woods

www.heirloom-woods.net

On Fri, 7 Jan 2005 09:22:27 -0500, Mike G wrote:

Lately I've taken to an entirely different way to get perfect fitting
face frames.

I cut and dry fit the rails and stiles making one stile is slightly over
sized in width. I cut biscuits for the joints in the face frame then I
glue and clamp one of the stiles in place on the carcass. That one I
flush too the side of the carcass. When the glue has set up I apply glue
and insert the biscuits and fit the rails glue and clamp them down to
the carcass. Since each is hand laid they are easily placed flush with
the shelves. When that glue is set up I apply the second over sized
stile in the same manner and when the glue has dried I use a flush cut
bit to trim it flush to the carcass.

Due to clamp time it takes a couple of hours longer to do it that way
but the result is a perfectly fitting face frame every time with no rush
to fix things if I find I happened to maybe cut a rail a tad shy or
proud or something thing isn't exactly square, it happens to all of us.

Note, I use the second stile with clamps but without glue to close the
joints between the first stile and the rails.

What connects the rails to the stiles? Glue? Glue and biscuits? It
_seems_ that in your process there is no force applied to the stiles into
the rails. I'm not saying that this is necessarily a problem. TIA. --
Igor

"Mike G" wrote in message
ews.com...
In article , says...
Lately I've taken to an entirely different way to get perfect fitting
face frames.

I cut and dry fit the rails and stiles making one stile is slightly over
sized in width. I cut biscuits for the joints in the face frame then I
glue and clamp one of the stiles in place on the carcass. That one I
flush too the side of the carcass. When the glue has set up I apply glue
and insert the biscuits and fit the rails glue and clamp them down to
the carcass. Since each is hand laid they are easily placed flush with
the shelves. When that glue is set up I apply the second over sized
stile in the same manner and when the glue has dried I use a flush cut
bit to trim it flush to the carcass.

Due to clamp time it takes a couple of hours longer to do it that way
but the result is a perfectly fitting face frame every time with no rush
to fix things if I find I happened to maybe cut a rail a tad shy or
proud or something thing isn't exactly square, it happens to all of us.

Note, I use the second stile with clamps but without glue to close the
joints between the first stile and the rails.

Wow, so are your face frames not a rigid assembly? Will they hold the
cabinet square?

****, I *wish* mine would come out flushG!

damian penney wrote:

Okay, thanks guys, personally I like them flush so I'll shoot for that,
knowing my luck they will end 1/8" lower than the bottom though...

In article .com,
"damian penney" wrote:

I read in my Building Kitchen Cabinets book that the face frame should
be aligned so that it's flush with the inside bottom of the case.
However looking around Home Expo all their cabinets have about a 1/4"
lip between the face frame and the cabinet bottom (and it's like that
in our current cabinets). Thoughts ?


A flush FF at the bottom makes it one helluva lot easer to sweep out.

Okay.. leave 1/32 if you must.

Rob

Don't sweat the petty things or pet the sweaty things.

"damian penney" wrote in message
oups.com...
I read in my Building Kitchen Cabinets book that the face frame should
be aligned so that it's flush with the inside bottom of the case.
However looking around Home Expo all their cabinets have about a 1/4"
lip between the face frame and the cabinet bottom (and it's like that
in our current cabinets). Thoughts ?


Think about it this way.

1. If you spill something in the cabinet, would it not be easier to wipe or
sweep it out over a flush edge than a raised edge?
2. Does it seem that a flush fit would be harder and require greater
expertise than having a lip?

Expo does have some decent stuff but it will never compare to well thought
out and well built cabinets.

Leon wrote:
2. Does it seem that a flush fit would be harder and require greater
expertise than having a lip?


The very reason I commented with the comment I commented
with, the added cost of labor to sand the two surfaces flush
with each other and not sand through the veneer on the
cabinet bottom, i.e., experienced workman.

UA100, who doesn't have a problem with the lip, just that
"better made" casework doesn't have a lip...

"Unisaw A100" wrote in message
...
Leon wrote:
2. Does it seem that a flush fit would be harder and require greater
expertise than having a lip?


The very reason I commented with the comment I commented
with, the added cost of labor to sand the two surfaces flush
with each other and not sand through the veneer on the
cabinet bottom, i.e., experienced workman.

UA100, who doesn't have a problem with the lip, just that
"better made" casework doesn't have a lip...

Ahh.. I am not saying the absence of a lip represents better made, just less
fuss to produce the lip. I sometimes purposely design in a lip to cut down
on labor time. A flush fit would be an exact fit where as with a lip any
height within reason is acceptable.

"Unisaw A100" wrote in message
...
Leon wrote:
2. Does it seem that a flush fit would be harder and require greater
expertise than having a lip?


The very reason I commented with the comment I commented
with, the added cost of labor to sand the two surfaces flush
with each other and not sand through the veneer on the
cabinet bottom, i.e., experienced workman.


HOW? You clamp a piece of ply to the base on the inside, then snug your FF
up against it. Nothing could be simpler. Certainly easier than trying to
get a consistent lip without another reference.

"George" george@least wrote in message
...
"Unisaw A100" wrote in message
...


HOW? You clamp a piece of ply to the base on the inside, then snug your
FF
up against it. Nothing could be simpler. Certainly easier than trying to
get a consistent lip without another reference.


Actually, and I have done this to get a consistent lip, using the same
method you mentioned to make the FF flush, cut a 1" rabbet across the end of
the plywood that you clamp to the inside base and let the depth of the
rabbet index your consistent lip.

George wrote:
HOW? You clamp a piece of ply to the base on the inside, then snug your FF
up against it. Nothing could be simpler.


Absolutely, until you go out and find minimum wage labor to
do it.

UA100

"Unisaw A100" wrote in message
George wrote:
HOW? You clamp a piece of ply to the base on the inside, then snug your
FF
up against it. Nothing could be simpler.


Absolutely, until you go out and find minimum wage labor to
do it.

After having a subcontractor fail three separate times to put kitchen
cabinet blocking in a stud wall in the right place, that is a good point.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/04

"Unisaw A100" wrote in message
...
George wrote:
HOW? You clamp a piece of ply to the base on the inside, then snug your
FF
up against it. Nothing could be simpler.


Absolutely, until you go out and find minimum wage labor to
do it.


Sounds like something they taught us in NCO school (also Officer school)
would apply. You can delegate authority, but never responsibility.

Contractor gets minimum wage?

It's easier/cheaper to have it not align. In other words,
less skilled labor can be used.

UA100

"Unisaw A100" wrote in message
It's easier/cheaper to have it not align. In other words,
less skilled labor can be used.

The subject "lip" has always apperared to be a "traditional" design element
of sorts to me. The question is whether its genesis is based on "skill" or
some other factor?

Many custom cabinetmakers attach the FF to the carcass with a groove.
Whether the top of the bottom FF rail is flush with the top of the floor of
the cabinet is just a matter of cutting either a rabbet or a groove in said
rail. The "skill" is the same to cut either with a power tool, and a lot
more skill to cut the groove which insures the "traditional" lip, by hand.

IOW, if there was indeed a "skill" factor involved in the days of yore, it
seems that the lip could have taken a tad more skill to produce.

I've rarely seen a face frame cabinet without this "lip" ... even the
Mexican 'cabinetmakers' around here who "build-in" monolithic units use it
when doing the traditional face frame cabinet.

In short, if you see a face frame cabinet with the subject lip, don't
automatically assume that it is somehow inferior and made with "less
skilled" labor.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/04

damian penney wrote:

I read in my Building Kitchen Cabinets book that the face frame should
be aligned so that it's flush with the inside bottom of the case.
However looking around Home Expo all their cabinets have about a 1/4"
lip between the face frame and the cabinet bottom (and it's like that
in our current cabinets). Thoughts ?

Having the frame and the bottom flush sure makes thing easier to clean any
spills on the inside of the cabinet.

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
(Remove "SPAM" from email address to reply)

If "the lip" is a sign of craftsmanship/attention-to-detail, but you
want to maintain "cleanability," then "just" chamfer the bottom rail's
inside-top edge in advance of the FF assembly ;^)

Right? ;^)

"TheNewGuy" wrote in message
If "the lip" is a sign of craftsmanship/attention-to-detail,

I think the "lip" is a matter of preference, which can be made into anything
you wish it to be ... and, in many cases, justification for the label "less
skilled" labor involved ... but not always.

but you
want to maintain "cleanability," then "just" chamfer the bottom rail's
inside-top edge in advance of the FF assembly ;^)

Right? ;^)

Actually, with a subtle lip, like the kind I prefer, a bit of 220 grit to
"break/ease the edges" (as DJM is fond of saying) before assembly is
generally all it takes.

AND, for all the naysayers, there is at least one benefit to the "lip" in
the cleaning controversy:

Anything spilled in the cabinet stays in the cabinet ... instead of dripping
all over Mom's apple pie, or that roast that just came out of the oven, and
sitting on the countertop.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/04

Swingman wrote:

I think the "lip" is a matter of preference, which can be made into
anything you wish it to be ... and, in many cases, justification
for the label "less skilled" labor involved ... but not always.

Oh, I agree. Was being a bit flip. I should have just said that if
one WANTS the lip for whatever reason, then it could be chamfered to
aid sweeping out crumbs/spills/messes/whatever. Of course it adds to
production time, and more special handling of specific pieces.

I read in my Building Kitchen Cabinets book that the face frame should
be aligned so that it's flush with the inside bottom of the case.
However looking around Home Expo all their cabinets have about a 1/4"
lip between the face frame and the cabinet bottom (and it's like that
in our current cabinets). Thoughts ?

I recently built a whole house full of cabinets, using 3/4" birch ply and
common #2 pine lumber. They aren't "fine craftsman" quality, but they're
certainly nicer than anything we saw at the home centers (and a lot less
expensive).

I made the face frames by ripping 1x6 and 1x8 pine boards into 2" strips. I
then cut selectively between the knots to end up with mostly clear lumber
for the face frames. I cut the frames to size and assembled them with
pocket screws.

I made my face frames the same height as the cabinet sides, and the cabinet
bottom is flush with the top of the lower rail of the face frame. Despite
my best efforts, I didn't always achieve "perfectly" flush joints between
the cabinet and face frame. But, a few minutes with a palm sander resulted
in perfectly smooth joints. Much easier to clean the shelves than if the
face frame stuck up a bit.

One advantage to having the face frame hang below the cabinet bottom is the
ability to mount undercabinet lights on the bottom of the cabinet.

I didn't do any fancy joinery with my cabinets. The carcass is simply glued
and nailed together with an air nailer. I also glued and nailed the face
frames on. The glue provides the strength, the nails just hold everything
together till the glue drys. Yes, we had nail holes to set, fill, and sand,
but that was a minor issue and just adds to the character of our cabinets.

The carcasses were made of the 3/4" birch plywood, except where the sides
of the cabinet shows. For those I glued up pine boards into panels that
would match the cabinet doors and fronts.

I finished the cabinets with Minwax "preconditioner", followed by a coat of
Minwax "Windsor Oak" stain, and two coats of Olympic Oil Based Satin
Polyurethane.

We were aiming for a "rustic" look and are very pleased with the results. I
tried to leave a select number of tight knots in the pine panels and
whatnot which further enhanced the rustic appearance.

The only item I wished I had done differently was to stain the door panels
before assembling the doors. We built the doors first, then sanded,
stained, and finished them. However, a few weeks after moving into our
house, the heat and dryness from our woodstove allowed the door panels to
shrink away from the door frames. So, there are small unfinished lines
running along the insides of the door frames. No biggy, but it wreaks of
inexperience... Live and learn...

By the way, my favorite book on cabinet building is "Building Kitchen
Cabinets" by Udo Schmidt. It's part of Taunton's "Build Like A Pro" book
series. I learned a lot from that book...

Take care,

Anthony