Breadboard ends, another question....

OK, I am building a piano bench from Mahogany. I looked at one on t-day to
get some ideas. Breadboard ends.

It looks as though the original had a sliding dovetail holding the
breadboard on. The top was about 16" across the grain. It looks as though
the end of the breadboard had a mitered corner before the DT slot was cut.
Sort of a breadboard end for the breadboard! No end grain anywhere.

From my initial Google searches it seems there are two purposes of
breadboard ends.

1) Aesthetics
2) To help with warping

The downside of breadboard ends is that they will move differently than the
piece they are attached to.

In the antique I was looking at; the finish was intact along the edge of the
breadboard. I saw no evidence of any dowels or pins or any other attachment
other than the dovetail. The corner, where the dovetail was visible, was
completely smooth, no evidence of any movement.

So, my questions....

1) Do I need the breadboard end for any other reason beside aesthetics on
such a small project?
2) Do I need to be concerned with wood movement on such a small project?
3) If #2 is No, could the breadboard be biscuit, splined, M&T in place with
glue along end?
4) If #4 is Yes, and I do not want any dowels showing, and I do not want to
risk it breaking off when someone sits on it, how else, besides a sliding
DT, could it be attached?

And a final somewhat related question....
Should I do my final edge profile before or after attaching the breadboard
ends? I'm thinking after.

And, start to finish on this project before Christmas! The wood is in my
truck, starting tonight.

THANKS ALL!!!

"Brikp" wrote in
:

Breadboard ends, another question....

OK, I am building a piano bench from Mahogany. I looked at one on
t-day to get some ideas. Breadboard ends.

It looks as though the original had a sliding dovetail holding the
breadboard on. The top was about 16" across the grain. It looks as
though the end of the breadboard had a mitered corner before the DT
slot was cut. Sort of a breadboard end for the breadboard! No end
grain anywhere.

From my initial Google searches it seems there are two purposes of
breadboard ends.

1) Aesthetics
2) To help with warping

The downside of breadboard ends is that they will move differently
than the piece they are attached to.

In the antique I was looking at; the finish was intact along the edge
of the breadboard. I saw no evidence of any dowels or pins or any
other attachment other than the dovetail. The corner, where the
dovetail was visible, was completely smooth, no evidence of any
movement.

So, my questions....

1) Do I need the breadboard end for any other reason beside aesthetics
on such a small project?
2) Do I need to be concerned with wood movement on such a small
project? 3) If #2 is No, could the breadboard be biscuit, splined, M&T
in place with glue along end?
4) If #4 is Yes, and I do not want any dowels showing, and I do not
want to risk it breaking off when someone sits on it, how else,
besides a sliding DT, could it be attached?

And a final somewhat related question....
Should I do my final edge profile before or after attaching the
breadboard ends? I'm thinking after.

And, start to finish on this project before Christmas! The wood is in
my truck, starting tonight.

THANKS ALL!!!




Better bring the wood into the shop and let it start aclimatizing for a
few weeks first.

I built a child's work table (~32"x20") with breadboard ends. I love the
look. It is now 2 years old. I did everything against the rules. I
glued tongue to groove and used small (~1/8") dowels to pin it. So far
there is no sign of failure and the top has no cupping. (Material used
was pine - climate has extreme temperatures between summer and winter).

Do edge profile after breadboard attached.

I like the idea of the sliding dovetail connection with glue at one point
such as the middle few inches. Problem is, the dovetail will push the
glue along the joint so I guess you would have to place glue towards the
far end where dovetail joint will close with table (bench) top edge.

(Will post to APBW under this title).

Brian

"Brian in Vancouver, BC" wrote in message
...
"Brikp" wrote in
:

Breadboard ends, another question....

OK, I am building a piano bench from Mahogany. I looked at one on
t-day to get some ideas. Breadboard ends.

It looks as though the original had a sliding dovetail holding the
breadboard on. The top was about 16" across the grain. It looks as
though the end of the breadboard had a mitered corner before the DT
slot was cut. Sort of a breadboard end for the breadboard! No end
grain anywhere.

From my initial Google searches it seems there are two purposes of
breadboard ends.

1) Aesthetics
2) To help with warping

The downside of breadboard ends is that they will move differently
than the piece they are attached to.

In the antique I was looking at; the finish was intact along the edge
of the breadboard. I saw no evidence of any dowels or pins or any
other attachment other than the dovetail. The corner, where the
dovetail was visible, was completely smooth, no evidence of any
movement.

So, my questions....

1) Do I need the breadboard end for any other reason beside aesthetics
on such a small project?
2) Do I need to be concerned with wood movement on such a small
project? 3) If #2 is No, could the breadboard be biscuit, splined, M&T
in place with glue along end?
4) If #4 is Yes, and I do not want any dowels showing, and I do not
want to risk it breaking off when someone sits on it, how else,
besides a sliding DT, could it be attached?

And a final somewhat related question....
Should I do my final edge profile before or after attaching the
breadboard ends? I'm thinking after.

And, start to finish on this project before Christmas! The wood is in
my truck, starting tonight.

THANKS ALL!!!




Better bring the wood into the shop and let it start aclimatizing for a
few weeks first.

I built a child's work table (~32"x20") with breadboard ends. I love the
look. It is now 2 years old. I did everything against the rules. I
glued tongue to groove and used small (~1/8") dowels to pin it. So far
there is no sign of failure and the top has no cupping. (Material used
was pine - climate has extreme temperatures between summer and winter).

Do edge profile after breadboard attached.

I like the idea of the sliding dovetail connection with glue at one point
such as the middle few inches. Problem is, the dovetail will push the
glue along the joint so I guess you would have to place glue towards the
far end where dovetail joint will close with table (bench) top edge.

(Will post to APBW under this title).

Brian

Thanks for the reply. Wood has been in an air-conditioned / heated retail
environment for an unknown length of time. I do not have a moisture meter.
It is now in my unheated SUV and will be moved later into an unheated
garagshop. Work will begin towards end of this week. Not too much
acclimation time if I am to finish this piece by Christmas. The wood does
seem pretty dry. Do you think it would be better to store it in the house
till the end of the week?

As far as the breadboard ends, I don't think much movement would happen with
decent dry wood. Last year I found an old (civil war era) White sewing
machine and cabinet alongside the road. The thing had been sitting in a
barn with a leaky roof for MANY years, and was covered with white rot, hay
and feathers. To make a long story short, i disassembled the wood (walnut)
pieces, shoved them through the planer, (except the burl walnut)
reassembled them, routed a new edge, and put on a few coats of shellac.
That was over a year ago. Today, the bread board ends are just ever so
slightly proud of the rest of the top. Hard to see, but I can feel it.
This was a pretty extreme case, considering how damp the wood was when i
started, and i fully expected to have to trim and re-route the breadboards,
but it's still fine. If you like the breadboard ends, go for it. Hope
this helps! --dave


"Brian in Vancouver, BC"



wrote in message
...
"Brikp" wrote in
:

Breadboard ends, another question....

OK, I am building a piano bench from Mahogany. I looked at one on
t-day to get some ideas. Breadboard ends.

It looks as though the original had a sliding dovetail holding the
breadboard on. The top was about 16" across the grain. It looks as
though the end of the breadboard had a mitered corner before the DT
slot was cut. Sort of a breadboard end for the breadboard! No end
grain anywhere.

From my initial Google searches it seems there are two purposes of
breadboard ends.

1) Aesthetics
2) To help with warping

The downside of breadboard ends is that they will move differently
than the piece they are attached to.

In the antique I was looking at; the finish was intact along the edge
of the breadboard. I saw no evidence of any dowels or pins or any
other attachment other than the dovetail. The corner, where the
dovetail was visible, was completely smooth, no evidence of any
movement.

So, my questions....

1) Do I need the breadboard end for any other reason beside aesthetics
on such a small project?
2) Do I need to be concerned with wood movement on such a small
project? 3) If #2 is No, could the breadboard be biscuit, splined, M&T
in place with glue along end?
4) If #4 is Yes, and I do not want any dowels showing, and I do not
want to risk it breaking off when someone sits on it, how else,
besides a sliding DT, could it be attached?

And a final somewhat related question....
Should I do my final edge profile before or after attaching the
breadboard ends? I'm thinking after.

And, start to finish on this project before Christmas! The wood is in
my truck, starting tonight.

THANKS ALL!!!




Better bring the wood into the shop and let it start aclimatizing for a
few weeks first.

I built a child's work table (~32"x20") with breadboard ends. I love the
look. It is now 2 years old. I did everything against the rules. I
glued tongue to groove and used small (~1/8") dowels to pin it. So far
there is no sign of failure and the top has no cupping. (Material used
was pine - climate has extreme temperatures between summer and winter).

Do edge profile after breadboard attached.

I like the idea of the sliding dovetail connection with glue at one point
such as the middle few inches. Problem is, the dovetail will push the
glue along the joint so I guess you would have to place glue towards the
far end where dovetail joint will close with table (bench) top edge.

(Will post to APBW under this title).

Brian

The Maghog I've worked with hasn't given me much problem in glue ups.
If the board widths are such that you need at least 3 pieces for the
16" you are good. I wouldn't do it with just two wide pieces.

I wouldn't bread board this or think you need to. If you do, follow
the rules and don't do continuous glue, just at the ends and at the
center, also, pin/dowel it and use slots in the tounge/mortise at the
center dowels.

I'd suggest doing some good edge prep and glue up the panel (with no
biscuits). Not too much pressure on the clamps, just enough for even
squeeze and use some lateral pieces to keep it flat if you can.
Unclamp it after 12 or more hours. Stand the panel on end, nearly
vertical leaning on a wall where it can get air on both sides. Wait a
day or two. If it pulls, cups or twists badly, (since you have no
bsicuits) rip it at the glue joints shuffle the boards and try it
again.

I always glue up panels first, so they can season a bit and tell their
story while I build the case, table, rals, etc. So it won't really
effect your schedule if you have to rip it and give it a second
chance.

Finally, depending on how it is mounted and the framing, you can count
on the connection to the apron to pull it in or help keep it flat. Use
table irons/buttons or other floatable attachments and you're golden.

"Brikp" wrote in message ...
Breadboard ends, another question....

OK, I am building a piano bench from Mahogany. I looked at one on t-day to
get some ideas. Breadboard ends.

It looks as though the original had a sliding dovetail holding the
breadboard on. The top was about 16" across the grain. It looks as though
the end of the breadboard had a mitered corner before the DT slot was cut.
Sort of a breadboard end for the breadboard! No end grain anywhere.

From my initial Google searches it seems there are two purposes of
breadboard ends.

1) Aesthetics
2) To help with warping

The downside of breadboard ends is that they will move differently than the
piece they are attached to.

In the antique I was looking at; the finish was intact along the edge of the
breadboard. I saw no evidence of any dowels or pins or any other attachment
other than the dovetail. The corner, where the dovetail was visible, was
completely smooth, no evidence of any movement.

So, my questions....

1) Do I need the breadboard end for any other reason beside aesthetics on
such a small project?
2) Do I need to be concerned with wood movement on such a small project?
3) If #2 is No, could the breadboard be biscuit, splined, M&T in place with
glue along end?
4) If #4 is Yes, and I do not want any dowels showing, and I do not want to
risk it breaking off when someone sits on it, how else, besides a sliding
DT, could it be attached?

And a final somewhat related question....
Should I do my final edge profile before or after attaching the breadboard
ends? I'm thinking after.

And, start to finish on this project before Christmas! The wood is in my
truck, starting tonight.

THANKS ALL!!!

I put breadboard ends on a heavy topped (8/4) Oak coffee table two years ago
using what I thought was an unconventional method and it has worked fine -
so far. I put three clusters of four biscuits, one in the center and the
others about 2" from the edges with a screw in the center of each cluster.
The center 5"-6" was glued and the rest floated. The outer biscuit slots
were cut about 1" wider than normal and the corresponding screw holes were
slotted to allow movement. Since then I have heard of others doing similar
attachments

The table has been in a NW Arkansas home (humid atmosphere) that uses a fair
amount of wood heat and lower than normal air conditioning. I saw it a few
weeks ago and it is obvious that things have moved a bit since new, but it
looked great.

RonB

Thanks for the reply. Wood has been in an air-conditioned / heated
retail environment for an unknown length of time. I do not have a
moisture meter. It is now in my unheated SUV and will be moved later
into an unheated garagshop. Work will begin towards end of this week.
Not too much acclimation time if I am to finish this piece by
Christmas. The wood does seem pretty dry. Do you think it would be
better to store it in the house till the end of the week?



Yes!