I been watching for awhile and he never uses one? I find on my TS the
splitter can be more of a hassle then benefit. It's just too time consuming
to keep it set up and straight... but I still use it. For how much longer I
don't know. Who uses it, and who doesn't, and why?

"Woodchuck" wrote in message
...
I been watching for awhile and he never uses one? I find on my TS the
splitter can be more of a hassle then benefit. It's just too time
consuming
to keep it set up and straight... but I still use it. For how much longer
I
don't know. Who uses it, and who doesn't, and why?

going without some form of splitter is insane. I use the Mesa Vista
splitter with homemade zero tolerance throat plate - small cheap and
effective and unobtrusive.

http://www.grip-tite.com/splitter.html

Bob

"Bob" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Woodchuck" wrote in message
...
I been watching for awhile and he never uses one? I find on my TS the
splitter can be more of a hassle then benefit. It's just too time
consuming
to keep it set up and straight... but I still use it. For how much
longer
I
don't know. Who uses it, and who doesn't, and why?

going without some form of splitter is insane. I use the Mesa Vista
splitter with homemade zero tolerance throat plate - small cheap and
effective and unobtrusive.

http://www.grip-tite.com/splitter.html

Bob

None of the table saws in my shop have splitters, I've never seen them used
in any cabinet shop.
In all my 37 years of cabinet making I've never found a use for splitters.
b

"Battleax" wrote in message
...

None of the table saws in my shop have splitters, I've never seen them
used
in any cabinet shop.
In all my 37 years of cabinet making I've never found a use for splitters.


I kinda find that hard to believe.
Well it did take me about 25 years to realize the value of a splitter.

"Leon" wrote in message
om...

"Battleax" wrote in message
...

None of the table saws in my shop have splitters, I've never seen them
used
in any cabinet shop.
In all my 37 years of cabinet making I've never found a use for
splitters.


I kinda find that hard to believe.
Well it did take me about 25 years to realize the value of a splitter.



If a board I'm ripping starts to close up after the blade I lift it straight
up and toss it into my kindling pile.
It will warp again regardless of how straight you get it with sawing.
b

"Battleax" wrote in message ...
"Leon" wrote in message
om...

"Battleax" wrote in message
...

None of the table saws in my shop have splitters, I've never seen them
used
in any cabinet shop.
In all my 37 years of cabinet making I've never found a use for
splitters.


I kinda find that hard to believe.
Well it did take me about 25 years to realize the value of a splitter.



If a board I'm ripping starts to close up after the blade I lift it straight
up and toss it into my kindling pile.
It will warp again regardless of how straight you get it with sawing.

That's not exactly the point. When it closes up it could kick back.
The goal of the splitter isn't to save the board, it's to save your
body.

"Battleax" wrote in message
...

None of the table saws in my shop have splitters, I've never seen them
used
in any cabinet shop.
In all my 37 years of cabinet making I've never found a use for splitters.
b

Are you saying that doing it 37 years makes it right? My brother-in-law who
has been woodworking for 40 years nearly took off three fingers last year
because of a stupid action.

I'm old enough to have stories like yours but never use that as
justification.

Bob

Bull.

"Bob" wrote in message
nk.net...

going without some form of splitter is insane.

"Woodchuck" wrote in message
...
I been watching for awhile and he never uses one? I find on my TS the
splitter can be more of a hassle then benefit. It's just too time consuming
to keep it set up and straight... but I still use it. For how much longer I
don't know. Who uses it, and who doesn't, and why?

I use this.

http://www.rockler.com/ecom7/product...8 9&sid=AF989

On Sun 21 Nov 2004 07:42:26a, "Woodchuck"
wrote in :

I been watching for awhile and he never uses one? I find on my TS the
splitter can be more of a hassle then benefit. It's just too time
consuming to keep it set up and straight... but I still use it. For
how much longer I don't know. Who uses it, and who doesn't, and why?


I use a piece of ruler from an old combination square, slighty sharpened at
the infeed side, and a slot cut in the bottom so I can loosen the bolt and
take it out quick when I want to run a dado.

I don't think I've ripcut anything but plywood where I haven't been
thankful that thing is there. I've watched boards come out of a cut and
BEFORE the splitter there's a nice 1/8 kerf, and AFTER the splitter the two
pieces are against each other so tightly you'd think they were clamped.

Dan

On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 08:42:26 -0500, "Woodchuck"
wrote:

I been watching for awhile and he never uses one? I find on my TS the
splitter can be more of a hassle then benefit. It's just too time consuming
to keep it set up and straight... but I still use it. For how much longer I
don't know. Who uses it, and who doesn't, and why?



If you want a good deal on an unused splitter, stop by one of the pro
shops in your area.

They are likely to have a number of them sitting around gathering
dust.

Quite true. And the blade guards generally go on just before the OSHA guys
show up and off after they leave.

"Tom Watson" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 08:42:26 -0500, "Woodchuck"
wrote:

I been watching for awhile and he never uses one? I find on my TS the
splitter can be more of a hassle then benefit. It's just too time
consuming
to keep it set up and straight... but I still use it. For how much longer
I
don't know. Who uses it, and who doesn't, and why?



If you want a good deal on an unused splitter, stop by one of the pro
shops in your area.

They are likely to have a number of them sitting around gathering
dust.

"Woodchuck" wrote in message
...
I been watching for awhile and he never uses one? I find on my TS the
splitter can be more of a hassle then benefit. It's just too time
consuming
to keep it set up and straight... but I still use it. For how much longer
I
don't know. Who uses it, and who doesn't, and why?



I've never used a splitter in 30 some years. I have at times, had to keep
pieces from pinching back together and a splitter would have done that
without my efforts, but those have been relatively few. Some wood can have
a mind of its own and try to close back up after the cut, but it's
manageable in other ways besides a splitter. More often the need for a
splitter is disguising the need for a proper table saw setup, or proper use
of a tablesaw. I don't really have anything against splitters but my saws
have never had one on them and I never installed one. I don't recall there
ever being such a focus on splitters in the past, as there is now. It's
common to hear that you must use a splitter and a guard today, but for
decades people made sawdust without them and those folks are still making it
today. My thoughts are use it if it makes you comfortable, don't use it if
it doesn't. Just don't fall into believing that it's a must or that you are
now safe just because you have the gear installed on your saw. It's still
all about technique and setup. Mask one problem and eventually you'll
discover another one as a result. Usually in a surprising way.
--

-Mike-

You do, however, have to be willing to stand aside and let the wood go (or
have a knee-kick ON/OFF) if you go without. No piece of wood is worth a
reach. Been my philosophy on all machines.

Can probably count on my ten fingers the number of times I've had to do that
in over thirty years, and most of them were with true poplar or elm, stuff
that just doesn't behave. I bandsaw that stuff now.

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
nk.net...
I've never used a splitter in 30 some years. I have at times, had to keep
pieces from pinching back together and a splitter would have done that
without my efforts, but those have been relatively few. Some wood can
have
a mind of its own and try to close back up after the cut, but it's
manageable in other ways besides a splitter.

On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 10:26:39 -0500, "George" george@least wrote:

most of them were with true poplar or elm, stuff
that just doesn't behave. I bandsaw that stuff now.

Elm doesn't behave ? I've not much experience with it (thanks to
Dutch elm disease), but our UK elms seem fairly benign.

Do you ever work larch ? Now big rips in larch are where I find the
stuff hotmelt-gluing itself onto the splitter. I'm just glad it's not
the blade.

Our elms are known for their interlocked grain. They shimmer with
transparent finishes, but they're almost impossible to split (wheel hubs),
and unpredictable on rips through quartered figure.

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 10:26:39 -0500, "George" george@least wrote:

most of them were with true poplar or elm, stuff
that just doesn't behave. I bandsaw that stuff now.

Elm doesn't behave ? I've not much experience with it (thanks to
Dutch elm disease), but our UK elms seem fairly benign.

Do you ever work larch ? Now big rips in larch are where I find the
stuff hotmelt-gluing itself onto the splitter. I'm just glad it's not
the blade.

On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 14:53:36 GMT, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:


"Woodchuck" wrote in message
...
I been watching for awhile and he never uses one? I find on my TS the
splitter can be more of a hassle then benefit. It's just too time
consuming
to keep it set up and straight... but I still use it. For how much longer
I
don't know. Who uses it, and who doesn't, and why?

I have to admit, I took mine off, because it was signifigantly more
dangerous having the cheap one that came with the saw on then it was
running the sucker without it. The problem was that no matter how
much time I spent setting it up carefully, and wrenching the sucker
down, it would invariably move on me, and cause the splitter to jam up
against the end of the stock instead of sliding into the kerf. As far
as I could see, this was not only making extra work for me, but
actually increasing my risk of kickback by shifting the workpiece a
little when it jammed. Perhaps I'll install a different one, or a
riving knife if I can find one for my odd sized table (with it's odd
sized blade insert- thanks, Delta) but it's more likely that I'm just
going to have to continue to use the tool carefully.


I've never used a splitter in 30 some years. I have at times, had to keep
pieces from pinching back together and a splitter would have done that
without my efforts, but those have been relatively few. Some wood can have
a mind of its own and try to close back up after the cut, but it's
manageable in other ways besides a splitter. More often the need for a
splitter is disguising the need for a proper table saw setup, or proper use
of a tablesaw. I don't really have anything against splitters but my saws
have never had one on them and I never installed one. I don't recall there
ever being such a focus on splitters in the past, as there is now. It's
common to hear that you must use a splitter and a guard today, but for
decades people made sawdust without them and those folks are still making it
today. My thoughts are use it if it makes you comfortable, don't use it if
it doesn't. Just don't fall into believing that it's a must or that you are
now safe just because you have the gear installed on your saw. It's still
all about technique and setup. Mask one problem and eventually you'll
discover another one as a result. Usually in a surprising way.

Aut inveniam viam aut faciam

"Woodchuck" wrote in message
...


I been watching for awhile and he never uses one? I find on my TS the
splitter can be more of a hassle then benefit.

There are pop-in/pop-out ones to minimize the hassle.

don't know. Who uses it, and who doesn't, and why?

You'll get some who say "I do" and some who say "Pro's don't.".
Well, I'm not a pro. I don't have daily experience with the tools or a slew
of board feet under my belt. Seems to me a splitter's a little bit like a
safety belt. Some wear 'em, some don't. Some folks have accidents with out
them and walk away fine.

But there just might come the day, where you're thankful it was there.
Personally, I need most of my appendages to earn a living.

How about this line of thought: The "cheapening" of power tools has been
hashed to death here. In an age where bean counters hold court on par with
the lawyers, dontcha think the manufacturers would drop them if they felt
they were worthless?

"patrick conroy" wrote in message
...

You'll get some who say "I do" and some who say "Pro's don't.".

I'm a pro and use it. Saves me sanding time. The edges of the wood that
likes to move after being cut come out smoother.

"patrick conroy" wrote in message
...

"Woodchuck" wrote in message
...


I been watching for awhile and he never uses one? I find on my TS the
splitter can be more of a hassle then benefit.

There are pop-in/pop-out ones to minimize the hassle.

don't know. Who uses it, and who doesn't, and why?

You'll get some who say "I do" and some who say "Pro's don't.".
Well, I'm not a pro. I don't have daily experience with the tools or a
slew
of board feet under my belt. Seems to me a splitter's a little bit like a
safety belt. Some wear 'em, some don't. Some folks have accidents with
out
them and walk away fine.

I'm not trying to persuade for or against the use of them - like I said in
my previous posts, use 'em if you like 'em... but as a side conversation,
these kinds of things seem to take on a life of their own. Certainly, they
come about only because there really is an underlying issue (kickback), and
at some point the solution (splitters) gets introduced. Generally, if the
solution works more than it inhibits, it gains a foothold. After a while it
seems there develops a certain urban legend nature about them. Not that
they don't add value, but the degree of value tends to get exagerated and a
whole generation comes to honestly believe that work can't practically or
safely be done without them. It really does not present such a big problem
for that misunderstanding to exist, so it's not such a big deal, but that
belief is bigger than the reality of the matter. What tends to be forgotten
is that the accident rate associated with these things is not dramatically
different before and after the acceptance of them. But... since they look
like such a good idea what quickly follows is the belief that before the
things came about, everyone was killing and maiming themselves in large
numbers. It does do something of a disservice though if that belief is
perpetuated. It creates a false security in the safety device and can
(note... *can*) result in not learning the more important cause and effect
issues associated with using the tool.


But there just might come the day, where you're thankful it was there.
Personally, I need most of my appendages to earn a living.

How about this line of thought: The "cheapening" of power tools has been
hashed to death here. In an age where bean counters hold court on par with
the lawyers, dontcha think the manufacturers would drop them if they felt
they were worthless?



Not completely. Lots of things are out there today only because of the
public's perceived value. Remember that a big part of manufacturing a
consumer product is producing what the consumer wants. Not that there is
always any good reason for it.
--

-Mike-

I never use guards on my tablesaw but I always use a splitter. The one I use
I made myself and does not have anti kick back teeth. The only thing I care
about is that the wood on the backside of the blade does not move over and
touch the blade. So my splitter is made from 1/8 inch brass stock 3/4 inch
wide and two inches high. It attaches to the single stud behind the blade. I
do have to use a wrench to get it out for dado cuts but I have never had a
kick back with this splitter.
max

I been watching for awhile and he never uses one? I find on my TS the
splitter can be more of a hassle then benefit. It's just too time consuming
to keep it set up and straight... but I still use it. For how much longer I
don't know. Who uses it, and who doesn't, and why?

"Woodchuck" wrote in message
I been watching for awhile and he never uses one? I find on my TS the
splitter can be more of a hassle then benefit. It's just too time
consuming
to keep it set up and straight... but I still use it. For how much longer
I
don't know. Who uses it, and who doesn't, and why?

It is apparently a well known fact that "pro shops" don't use splitters, and
culturally speaking, we are convinced that all pro's have big pricks and
large cojones, therefore yours will somehow gain "pro" stature if you also
refrain.

What's missing is the fact that most "pro's" learn early the necessity to
physically control the wood throughout the cut, something a weekend
woodworker may not learn, except the hard way.

(it's also amazing how fast your heretofore manly parts shrivel with blood
pouring out of a far removed appendage)

Enter the "well designed" splitter, usually aftermarket, and not the POS
that came with the TS.

It is inarguably a good thing for a weekend wooddorker to use one ... it
may well protect your appendages (as well as those of a "pro" in the throes
of a brain fart) that _one_ time in 40 years of woodworking that it was
needed.

Just get/make one that encourages use by being easy to install and remove,
that stays.in good working order, and that is not so flimsy as to be an
actual danger and therefore better than none.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/04

"Swingman" wrote in message
...

It is inarguably a good thing for a weekend wooddorker to use one ... it
may well protect your appendages (as well as those of a "pro" in the
throes
of a brain fart) that _one_ time in 40 years of woodworking that it was
needed.

Just get/make one that encourages use by being easy to install and remove,
that stays.in good working order, and that is not so flimsy as to be an
actual danger and therefore better than none.

You gave one of the most rational, calm explanations I've seen. I'd guess
that there are a goodly number of "non-pro" workers in this conference and
your advice applies well to them (and me!). Some guys who are pros seem to
think they have a god-like status in what's right for everyone. The can
take a leap off their pedestal anytime they feel like, as far as I'm
concerned.

Bob

On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 10:35:06 -0600, "Swingman" wrote:

"Woodchuck" wrote in message
I been watching for awhile and he never uses one? I find on my TS the
splitter can be more of a hassle then benefit. It's just too time
consuming
to keep it set up and straight... but I still use it. For how much longer
I
don't know. Who uses it, and who doesn't, and why?

It is apparently a well known fact that "pro shops" don't use splitters, and
culturally speaking, we are convinced that all pro's have big pricks and
large cojones, therefore yours will somehow gain "pro" stature if you also
refrain.

What's missing is the fact that most "pro's" learn early the necessity to
physically control the wood throughout the cut, something a weekend
woodworker may not learn, except the hard way.


I've probably been in a couple of dozen shops over the last thirty
five plus years that would be considered pro shops and used a ten inch
tablesaw somewhere in their operations. In some cases, like mine, it
was the primary sawing tool in the shop and in the others it was a
much used secondary tool because those shops used sliders as the
primary.

I honestly can't recall any instances where the guard and splitter
that came with the saw were in use. In those cases where a guard was
used, it was usually the type that provided dust extraction,
particularly in shops where a lot of MDF was cut; and it was
positioned so that the blade could be clearly seen during the cut. In
other words, it was not acting as a guard.

I can't speak to the size of their pricks and this is surely a topic
for another thread - if not another newsgroup.

They were/are, without exception, deca-digital wooddorkers.

The reasoning behind throwing away the OEM splitter/guard is almost
always the same:

1. The OEM splitter/guards are poorly designed rubbish.
2. The operator wants to see the blade and the area immediately
before and after the cut, so that he can react to what happens during
the cutting operation.
3. The operator wants to deal with the wood, the blade and the
fence - without other variables being introduced by the alleged safety
devices.

That said, there are a number of caveats that must be explored in
order to account for these pros continued ability to count to ten
without recourse to their pedestrial appendages.



Stock Preparation:

When I worked as a carpenter I would often see a future organ donor
try to feed a twisted, bowed, crooked, waney-edged piece of material
into the angry part of a poorly set up, underpowered, dull-bladed
widow maker of a machine that could only be called a tablesaw by
analogy.

These were the sorts who eventually wound up trying, ineffectively,
to clear nasal blockages with a phantom limblet.

The pro would avail himself of those tools which would render the
stock into a condition where it is fit to be fed into the saw, ie:
with a flat face produced on the jointer or careful use of the
thicknesser; with the faces planed parallel, the edges trued straight
on the jointer, and the twist eliminated or ameliorated via jointer or
cross cutting of the stock to eliminate the worst of the twist.

Anything less than this is Sawicide.



Artful Dodging And The Careful Management Of Fear:

"Fear is the mindkiller. Fear is the little death that brings total
obliteration." Frank Herbert.

The pro who seeks to protect his continued ability to disseminate
inseminating solutions never stands in a direct line with a potential
projectile. He stands to the side and addresses his saw with respect,
but without fear. Standing in the possible path of a piece of ash
that might be propelled towards the famous Italian Airline
(Gen-Italia) at a speed governed by a c. 3450 rpm, 3hp motor is an
exercise in Darwinism.

Fear and Foolish Inattention are what gets most infrequent users of
the tablesaw injured. Let us now explore Fear - Foolish Inattention
comes later.

I've seen them push the wood into the sawblade without sufficient
downward pressure on the table or sideward pressure on the fence -
this is the greatest cause of kickback. They proceed in a tentative
fashion and their fear is the cause of the feared result. It is as
though they do not want to commit the aligned force of their hand and
body pressure towards the spinning amputator - and this is good - to a
degree.

The solution is to be a student of the Bee Sting Theory.

The Bee Sting Theory states that: "One should never push on a piece
of material in such a way that - if a bee stung them on the ass - any
body part would naturally move towards the amputator."

The downward force is applied well prior to the intersection of the
blade and the material, as is the side pressure; and this pressure is
always applied in such a way and at such an angle to the amputator as
to make the body parts unavailable to the amputator under conditions
of surprisingly stressful events, ie: bee stings, earthquakes, naked
women springing quickly and unexpectedly into the field of vision,
etc.

Ahem...

Although the pro may adjust the height of the blade to project above
the material to various heights, in order to gain the advantages of
blade/tooth geometry - I would not recommend that an inexperienced
user do this. This user should only allow the teeth to barely stand
proud of the material - and he should do all of his cutting this way
until he is used to how the saw and the wood react.

When he gets used to cutting, his fear will leave him - but his
respect should remain.



Useful Appliances And Their Result In Use:

Although most small shop pros may eschew the use of the OEM alleged
safety devices, this is not to say that they use no safety devices at
all.

To whit:

They often make use of hold downs and feather boards. It is always
the case when I am attempting a glue line rip and is most often the
case in repetitive rips that pros use hold downs and featherboards.

These devices provide safety in the regard of appropriate pressure in
the appropriate direction, as well as providing a superior cut. They
also do this for you without occluding your line of sight to the blade
- a great benefit.

Deca-digital professionals also make constant use of push sticks. My
personal favorite is a 1/2" thk simulacrum of a female leg (magic
markered in replication of mesh stockings is optional in most shops,
but required in mine), with a spiked heel at the end to encompass the
woody material - ymmv on this.

On stock of such width as to make use of the GamStick (tm TW)
impractical, I resort to the use of an icepick. This is an old
patternmaker's trick but provides enhanced enjoyment to Kubrick fans.



Foolish Inattention:

This category begins with sawblades. Not to put too fine a point on
it, but - combo blades suck.

If you are going to do much ripping on the tablesaw you need to get a
ripping blade. Some ripping blades will give a rough cut but a good
glue line ripping blade will provide a wonderfully smooth surface,
suitable for glue ups without further treatment on the jointer.

Using the wrong blade for ripping results in a kerf that is too small
to assist in the prevention of kickback.

You must also be attentive to your saw setup. The blade must be
parallel to the fence. The blade should not toe in or out.

The blade must be parallel to the fence.
The blade must be parallel to the fence.
The blade must be parallel to the fence.
The blade must be parallel to the fence.
The blade must be parallel to the fence.

Can I get an Amen!

Properly prepared stock in a saw that is properly set up, with a blade
of the proper type, operated by someone who respects the saw without
fearing it, will result in safe cuts - with the following provisos:

Understand Your Stock:

During the process of stock preparation you should have discovered a
good deal about the properties of your material. You should be able
to determine the grain direction along the proposed cut line and you
should be able to see if you are dealing with reaction wood, rather
than mild stock.

I like to feed wood into the ripping blade with the same attention to
grain direction and slope as I would use with when feeding the
thicknesser or the jointer.

By being mindful of this you can eliminate the production of pointy-
sticks-headed-towards-your-nether-regions to a great degree, as well
as keeping at bay the explosive surprises contained within some highly
figured and interlocked-grained woods.


Don't Be Stupid:

If a piece breaks off between the blade and the fence - shut the saw
down.

If the blade starts to bind on your material, even though you have
taken all of the above precautions - shut the saw down.

If someone walks into your shop while you are ripping, because you
foolishly neglected to lock the doors - shut the saw down.

If the song on the 400hp shop music device is sounding so good to you
that you start to get Happy Feet - shut the saw down.

If you decide that you would like to have the first Pina Colada of the
day in the middle of a rip - shut the saw down.


Remember - Be Like The Pros

Because Pro-made

Is Better Than

Ho-made

and much safer.









Regards,

Tom.

Thomas J. Watson - Cabinetmaker, ret.
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

"Tom Watson" wrote in message

"Swingman" wrote:

It is apparently a well known fact that "pro shops" don't use splitters,
and
culturally speaking, we are convinced that all pro's have big pricks and
large cojones, therefore yours will somehow gain "pro" stature if you
also
refrain.

What's missing is the fact that most "pro's" learn early the necessity to
physically control the wood throughout the cut, something a weekend
woodworker may not learn, except the hard way.

The reasoning behind throwing away the OEM splitter/guard is almost
always the same:

1. The OEM splitter/guards are poorly designed rubbish.
2. The operator wants to see the blade and the area immediately
before and after the cut, so that he can react to what happens during
the cutting operation.
3. The operator wants to deal with the wood, the blade and the
fence - without other variables being introduced by the alleged safety
devices.

Yabbut, you left out the pertinent part of my post:

Enter the "well designed" splitter, usually aftermarket, and not the POS
that came with the TS.

It is inarguably a good thing for a weekend wooddorker to use one ... it
may well protect your appendages (as well as those of a "pro" in the
throes
of a brain fart) that _one_ time in 40 years of woodworking that it was
needed.

Just get/make one that encourages use by being easy to install and remove,
that stays.in good working order, and that is not so flimsy as to be an
actual danger and therefore better than none.

Got a kid just old enough to be in the shop?

If so, there's a damn good way to dipstick your level of commitment to NOT
using safety devices like splitters and guards. Put your non "pro" loved one
_alone_ in the shop with 100 bf of lumber to cut, then think real hard
beforehand whether to use splitters and blade guards, or not.

You will then know, at gut level, the strength of your commitment.

Most of us, while not foolish all the time, will do a foolish thing now and
again ... and that's when we, and even the "pro's", need all the help we can
get to remain unscathed.

Besides, why not?

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/04

On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 15:31:58 -0600, "Swingman" wrote:



"Swingman" wrote:


Got a kid just old enough to be in the shop?

If so, there's a damn good way to dipstick your level of commitment to NOT
using safety devices like splitters and guards. Put your non "pro" loved one
_alone_ in the shop with 100 bf of lumber to cut, then think real hard
beforehand whether to use splitters and blade guards, or not.

You will then know, at gut level, the strength of your commitment.



You started out with turning it into a dick measuring contest and now
you've moved on to child abuse.

Congratulations.

The point, which you have so deftly ignored, is that it is your brain
that must be your primary safety device.



Regards,

Tom.

Thomas J. Watson - Cabinetmaker, ret.
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

"Tom Watson" wrote in message
On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 15:31:58 -0600, "Swingman" wrote:

"Swingman" wrote:


Got a kid just old enough to be in the shop?

If so, there's a damn good way to dipstick your level of commitment to
NOT
using safety devices like splitters and guards. Put your non "pro" loved
one
_alone_ in the shop with 100 bf of lumber to cut, then think real hard
beforehand whether to use splitters and blade guards, or not.

You will then know, at gut level, the strength of your commitment.

You started out with turning it into a dick measuring contest and now
you've moved on to child abuse.

Congratulations.

LOL!

So, answer the question. Would you insist that your own kid use a splitter
and blade guard until they were old enough to make up their own mind?

The point, which you have so deftly ignored, is that it is your brain
that must be your primary safety device.

Quite the contrary ... considering some using tools these days, ignoring any
safety devices is arguably the product of a disengaged brain. You forget
what century you're in? ... there ain't no more shop classes in junior high
school.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/04

"Tom Watson" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 15:31:58 -0600, "Swingman" wrote:



"Swingman" wrote:


Got a kid just old enough to be in the shop?

If so, there's a damn good way to dipstick your level of commitment to
NOT
using safety devices like splitters and guards. Put your non "pro" loved
one
_alone_ in the shop with 100 bf of lumber to cut, then think real hard
beforehand whether to use splitters and blade guards, or not.

You will then know, at gut level, the strength of your commitment.



You started out with turning it into a dick measuring contest and now
you've moved on to child abuse.

Congratulations.

The point, which you have so deftly ignored, is that it is your brain
that must be your primary safety device.


I never saw Swingman's original response, so I'll tag on Tom's to address
Swingman. That's just an absolutely foolish position and one that speaks to
open mouth before engaging brain. It is in fact the blind reliance on what
is purported to be a safety device rather than relying on proper safety.
Your implied logic Swingman is likely what causes the near accidents that
you credit the "safety" devices for having prevented becoming full fledged
disasters. A little practical thought and you can completely avoid most of
what you spread as fear-uncertainty-and doubt when it comes to proper and
safe use of tools.

In short - when I allowed my kids to use the power tools it was only after
they had worked for a long time with me in the shop. In the beginning they
were just helping hold things or were just sort of around the shop. They
began their indoctrination process by seeing the way things are safely done,
coupled with a bit of explanation. As they showed interest in using tools
they received a lot more instruction. They also received a lot of
demonstrations, and a lot of help. Lo and behold in no time at all they
were pretty well qualified to use my tools on their own at early ages. It
didn't take a lot of time and effort to get them to this point and they
actually understand the tools. That makes for a far more educated and
qualified operator than one who relies on scare tactics.

Know your tools, not just marketing and newsgroup claims.
--

-Mike-

On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 17:00:10 -0500, Tom Watson
wrote:


You started out with turning it into a dick measuring contest

Dicks and tablesaws in the same post make me shudder.

Barry

Tom Watson wrote in
:

snip

The point is that it is your brain
that must be your primary safety device.

I'll give you a hearty AMEN on that one, Tawm.

And on most of the previous, as well.

Patriarch

On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 15:31:58 -0600, "Swingman" wrote:

Got a kid just old enough to be in the shop?

Only if they've finished sweeping the chimneys from the insides.
And Daisy the cow probably needs reaming again too. No playing with
the hazardous tools until they've done their chores.

We're too soft on our kids. Prince Charles is right. Teach 'em some
respect for the machinery.

Tom,

Another wonderful work of art. You do have a way with words.

It's funny, how often I find myself forgetting the little simple facts of
life when in the shop ... such as:

Just HOW fast could a piece of wood kick back on me? ( Given your 10" /3450
RPM saw ... about 102 MPH)

Will it hurt? (Yes, anything and everything in its path)


Thanks for passing along some wonderful wisdom obtained by calculation and
observation.


Regards,


Rick


"Tom Watson" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 10:35:06 -0600, "Swingman" wrote:

"Woodchuck" wrote in message
I been watching for awhile and he never uses one? I find on my TS the
splitter can be more of a hassle then benefit. It's just too time
consuming
to keep it set up and straight... but I still use it. For how much
longer
I
don't know. Who uses it, and who doesn't, and why?

It is apparently a well known fact that "pro shops" don't use splitters,
and
culturally speaking, we are convinced that all pro's have big pricks and
large cojones, therefore yours will somehow gain "pro" stature if you
also
refrain.

What's missing is the fact that most "pro's" learn early the necessity to
physically control the wood throughout the cut, something a weekend
woodworker may not learn, except the hard way.


I've probably been in a couple of dozen shops over the last thirty
five plus years that would be considered pro shops and used a ten inch
tablesaw somewhere in their operations. In some cases, like mine, it
was the primary sawing tool in the shop and in the others it was a
much used secondary tool because those shops used sliders as the
primary.

I honestly can't recall any instances where the guard and splitter
that came with the saw were in use. In those cases where a guard was
used, it was usually the type that provided dust extraction,
particularly in shops where a lot of MDF was cut; and it was
positioned so that the blade could be clearly seen during the cut. In
other words, it was not acting as a guard.

I can't speak to the size of their pricks and this is surely a topic
for another thread - if not another newsgroup.

They were/are, without exception, deca-digital wooddorkers.

The reasoning behind throwing away the OEM splitter/guard is almost
always the same:

1. The OEM splitter/guards are poorly designed rubbish.
2. The operator wants to see the blade and the area immediately
before and after the cut, so that he can react to what happens during
the cutting operation.
3. The operator wants to deal with the wood, the blade and the
fence - without other variables being introduced by the alleged safety
devices.

That said, there are a number of caveats that must be explored in
order to account for these pros continued ability to count to ten
without recourse to their pedestrial appendages.



Stock Preparation:

When I worked as a carpenter I would often see a future organ donor
try to feed a twisted, bowed, crooked, waney-edged piece of material
into the angry part of a poorly set up, underpowered, dull-bladed
widow maker of a machine that could only be called a tablesaw by
analogy.

These were the sorts who eventually wound up trying, ineffectively,
to clear nasal blockages with a phantom limblet.

The pro would avail himself of those tools which would render the
stock into a condition where it is fit to be fed into the saw, ie:
with a flat face produced on the jointer or careful use of the
thicknesser; with the faces planed parallel, the edges trued straight
on the jointer, and the twist eliminated or ameliorated via jointer or
cross cutting of the stock to eliminate the worst of the twist.

Anything less than this is Sawicide.



Artful Dodging And The Careful Management Of Fear:

"Fear is the mindkiller. Fear is the little death that brings total
obliteration." Frank Herbert.

The pro who seeks to protect his continued ability to disseminate
inseminating solutions never stands in a direct line with a potential
projectile. He stands to the side and addresses his saw with respect,
but without fear. Standing in the possible path of a piece of ash
that might be propelled towards the famous Italian Airline
(Gen-Italia) at a speed governed by a c. 3450 rpm, 3hp motor is an
exercise in Darwinism.

Fear and Foolish Inattention are what gets most infrequent users of
the tablesaw injured. Let us now explore Fear - Foolish Inattention
comes later.

I've seen them push the wood into the sawblade without sufficient
downward pressure on the table or sideward pressure on the fence -
this is the greatest cause of kickback. They proceed in a tentative
fashion and their fear is the cause of the feared result. It is as
though they do not want to commit the aligned force of their hand and
body pressure towards the spinning amputator - and this is good - to a
degree.

The solution is to be a student of the Bee Sting Theory.

The Bee Sting Theory states that: "One should never push on a piece
of material in such a way that - if a bee stung them on the ass - any
body part would naturally move towards the amputator."

The downward force is applied well prior to the intersection of the
blade and the material, as is the side pressure; and this pressure is
always applied in such a way and at such an angle to the amputator as
to make the body parts unavailable to the amputator under conditions
of surprisingly stressful events, ie: bee stings, earthquakes, naked
women springing quickly and unexpectedly into the field of vision,
etc.

Ahem...

Although the pro may adjust the height of the blade to project above
the material to various heights, in order to gain the advantages of
blade/tooth geometry - I would not recommend that an inexperienced
user do this. This user should only allow the teeth to barely stand
proud of the material - and he should do all of his cutting this way
until he is used to how the saw and the wood react.

When he gets used to cutting, his fear will leave him - but his
respect should remain.



Useful Appliances And Their Result In Use:

Although most small shop pros may eschew the use of the OEM alleged
safety devices, this is not to say that they use no safety devices at
all.

To whit:

They often make use of hold downs and feather boards. It is always
the case when I am attempting a glue line rip and is most often the
case in repetitive rips that pros use hold downs and featherboards.

These devices provide safety in the regard of appropriate pressure in
the appropriate direction, as well as providing a superior cut. They
also do this for you without occluding your line of sight to the blade
- a great benefit.

Deca-digital professionals also make constant use of push sticks. My
personal favorite is a 1/2" thk simulacrum of a female leg (magic
markered in replication of mesh stockings is optional in most shops,
but required in mine), with a spiked heel at the end to encompass the
woody material - ymmv on this.

On stock of such width as to make use of the GamStick (tm TW)
impractical, I resort to the use of an icepick. This is an old
patternmaker's trick but provides enhanced enjoyment to Kubrick fans.



Foolish Inattention:

This category begins with sawblades. Not to put too fine a point on
it, but - combo blades suck.

If you are going to do much ripping on the tablesaw you need to get a
ripping blade. Some ripping blades will give a rough cut but a good
glue line ripping blade will provide a wonderfully smooth surface,
suitable for glue ups without further treatment on the jointer.

Using the wrong blade for ripping results in a kerf that is too small
to assist in the prevention of kickback.

You must also be attentive to your saw setup. The blade must be
parallel to the fence. The blade should not toe in or out.

The blade must be parallel to the fence.
The blade must be parallel to the fence.
The blade must be parallel to the fence.
The blade must be parallel to the fence.
The blade must be parallel to the fence.

Can I get an Amen!

Properly prepared stock in a saw that is properly set up, with a blade
of the proper type, operated by someone who respects the saw without
fearing it, will result in safe cuts - with the following provisos:

Understand Your Stock:

During the process of stock preparation you should have discovered a
good deal about the properties of your material. You should be able
to determine the grain direction along the proposed cut line and you
should be able to see if you are dealing with reaction wood, rather
than mild stock.

I like to feed wood into the ripping blade with the same attention to
grain direction and slope as I would use with when feeding the
thicknesser or the jointer.

By being mindful of this you can eliminate the production of pointy-
sticks-headed-towards-your-nether-regions to a great degree, as well
as keeping at bay the explosive surprises contained within some highly
figured and interlocked-grained woods.


Don't Be Stupid:

If a piece breaks off between the blade and the fence - shut the saw
down.

If the blade starts to bind on your material, even though you have
taken all of the above precautions - shut the saw down.

If someone walks into your shop while you are ripping, because you
foolishly neglected to lock the doors - shut the saw down.

If the song on the 400hp shop music device is sounding so good to you
that you start to get Happy Feet - shut the saw down.

If you decide that you would like to have the first Pina Colada of the
day in the middle of a rip - shut the saw down.


Remember - Be Like The Pros

Because Pro-made

Is Better Than

Ho-made

and much safer.









Regards,

Tom.

Thomas J. Watson - Cabinetmaker, ret.
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

"Rick" wrote in
m:

Tom,

Another wonderful work of art. You do have a way with words.

It's funny, how often I find myself forgetting the little simple facts
of life when in the shop ... such as:

Just HOW fast could a piece of wood kick back on me? ( Given your 10"
/3450 RPM saw ... about 102 MPH)

Will it hurt? (Yes, anything and everything in its path)


Thanks for passing along some wonderful wisdom obtained by calculation
and observation.


Well, Rick, some of us can add to that base of knowledge through direct
experience, without the math. Not that that's what I had in mind...

Some folks are visual learners. ;-)

Patriarch

On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 07:42:09 GMT, patriarch
wrote:


Well, Rick, some of us can add to that base of knowledge through direct
experience, without the math. Not that that's what I had in mind...

Some folks are visual learners. ;-)

... in some cases more visceral than (just) visual :-)

Tom,
great post! The point about keeping the wood ON the saw and AGAINST
the fence is one of the main reasons I remove the splitter most of the
time. I get much more leverage by having the blade just above the
workpiece so I can have a push block that rides over the blade if
necessary for narrow cuts rather than struggling with how to push
through that last little bit of projectile that got hung up between
the blade and the fence. For wider cuts I use roller hold downs that
are anti-kickback devices and these work well if the blade isn't
lifting the workpiece and twisting it out of the grip of the roller,
again, the long push block helps this situation. Both of these
situations are worsened by the commercial splitter/blade guard.

If wood is going to close down it will start closing down immediately
after it leaves the blade and is going to pinch the blade anyway even
with a splitter. The worse case scenario is if the wood closes down
enough to hit the leading edge of the splitter that is several inches
behind the blade. It seems to me that a splitter, to be useful on the
gnarly wood that tends to close down quickly, is only useful if the
splitter is slightly less than the thickness of the cut AND is
positioned immediately behind the blade. A splitter that meets this
requirement would need to be repositioned based on the blade height -
a very complicated mechanism and one that is either unreliable or very
expensive.

I do use the splitter/guard for some cuts. When I am cutting wood
that is splintery (like plywood) or lots of dust, like MDF, then I use
the guard to keep the little 'bits' from flying all over the place. I
also use it when I am ripping long boards (where I am positioned
relatively far from the saw) simply because I am not comfortable to
have the blade running 'free' when I am not near enough to prevent
something from striking it - I'll admit that this might be less
logical but it reduces my fear, which, as you aptly point out, is
debilitating. But, again, I am using it as a guard, not a splitter in
this case.

For me, the best safety devices, besides the brain, are the
anti-kickback rollers, the push block, and featherboard.

No matter how you slice it (no excuse for the pun) a TS is a dangerous
piece of equipment that requires careful and knowledgeable practices
to use it safely. Reliance on safety devices that don't improve
safety but provide over confidence is more risky IMO.

TWS

Tom Watson wrote:

... he should do all of his cutting this way
until he is used to how the saw and the wood react.

When he gets used to cutting, his fear will leave him - but his
respect should remain.

Also, it's a good idea to learn to use the tablesaw drunk. That way,
when you're sober, it feels no more dangerous than watching
television.

Ken Muldrew

(remove all letters after y in the alphabet)

"Woodchuck" wrote in
:

I been watching for awhile and he never uses one? I find on my TS the
splitter can be more of a hassle then benefit. It's just too time
consuming to keep it set up and straight... but I still use it. For
how much longer I don't know. Who uses it, and who doesn't, and why?


I use the Delta Removeable splitter that comes with the Overarm Guard,
orderable as a service part for less than $30. I've had several
experiences that remind me to put it in, whenever I'm done with the
crosscut sleds. I also seem to get better results on the materials I use.

However...

One evening last week, while watching an older NYW on the TiVo, my eldest
son was giving me unmitigated crap for 'instructing Norm on technique',
while he built some project or another.

Do things the way that makes you comfortable. Be willing to learn from
others. Smile as you enter, and leave, your workspace.

Patriarch

On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 08:42:26 -0500, "Woodchuck"
wrote:

I been watching for awhile and he never uses one?

My impression was that hardly anyone in the USA used them. Here in
Europe we're beyond splitters and into riving knives.

My own saw just has several inserts. Some have splitters, some are
short ones, some are penetrating splitters with a guard on top.

--
Smert' spamionam

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message

My impression was that hardly anyone in the USA used them.

I don't think that's true ... I know a number of "pro" woodworkers/cabinet
makers of many years experience and it may surprise you to find that a good
many of them use splitters on their cabinet saws in the shop. And just about
everyone I know with a cabinet saw in their garage/ship uses one.

Where I rarely see a splitter is on a contractor's saws on a job site.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/04

"Woodchuck" wrote in message ...

It's just too time consuming
to keep it set up and straight

If you're really having trouble keeping your splitter "straight", a damn
good argument can be made that it may well be doing its job.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/04