I googled and read what was available, but have some questions...

1) Everyone says to sticker, but no one defines it. Is that separating the
boards with 1x2s?
2) The ends must be painted. With what? If I don't paint, will I ruin the
board, or just a few inchs on the end?
3) Is there anything worth reading about this on the web?

I have a lead on some really cheap hard maple and a nearly empty barn.
Might as well put it to use.

Yes, "stickers" are basically strips of wood placed between rows of lumber
for drying. The ends of freshly cut logs usually are "painted" with a
product called anchor seal. It's basically a waxy covering to seal moisture
from escaping the endgrain, thereby preventing cracking/splitting. Latex
paint can be used for this in a pinch. If the wood is already cut and has
been air drying for a while, sealing the ends is not necessary. Here is a
site I have a link to:
http://ianrpubs.unl.edu/forestry/g60.htm
Although this site recommended using roofing cement as a sealer, I'd advise
against it as it would be way more messy than Anchor seal. --dave



"toller" wrote in message
...
I googled and read what was available, but have some questions...

1) Everyone says to sticker, but no one defines it. Is that separating
the boards with 1x2s?
2) The ends must be painted. With what? If I don't paint, will I ruin
the board, or just a few inchs on the end?
3) Is there anything worth reading about this on the web?

I have a lead on some really cheap hard maple and a nearly empty barn.
Might as well put it to use.

"Dave jackson" wrote in
ink.net:

Yes, "stickers" are basically strips of wood placed between rows of
lumber for drying. The ends of freshly cut logs usually are "painted"
with a product called anchor seal. It's basically a waxy covering to
seal moisture from escaping the endgrain, thereby preventing
cracking/splitting. Latex paint can be used for this in a pinch. If
the wood is already cut and has been air drying for a while, sealing
the ends is not necessary. snip

And often not possible. Depending on the wood, and the conditions, it may
have checked (split) quite a ways in from the end. How much you lose from
the end is difficult to predict, without more information. The sooner you
seal, the better.

Woodturners, who often use very green wood, like to get there before the
chain saws cool down.

The point is to try to even out the moisture migration process, to let the
stresses balance slowly.

Patriarch

You google this?
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/tmu/publications.htm

Painting the ends after the board is sawn into 4/4 or 5/4 planks is
unnecessary. The rest of the board will dry fast enough to limit end
checks. I see load after load of hardwood leaving, and none is coated.
Never bothered with the stuff for personal use, either. I think that's why
it's cut at 100" , so 96 will always be useful.

"toller" wrote in message
...
I googled and read what was available, but have some questions...

1) Everyone says to sticker, but no one defines it. Is that separating
the
boards with 1x2s?
2) The ends must be painted. With what? If I don't paint, will I ruin
the
board, or just a few inchs on the end?
3) Is there anything worth reading about this on the web?

I have a lead on some really cheap hard maple and a nearly empty barn.
Might as well put it to use.

patriarch wrote in message . 16...
"Dave jackson" wrote in
ink.net:

Yes, "stickers" are basically strips of wood placed between rows of
lumber for drying. The ends of freshly cut logs usually are "painted"
with a product called anchor seal. It's basically a waxy covering to
seal moisture from escaping the endgrain, thereby preventing
cracking/splitting. Latex paint can be used for this in a pinch. If
the wood is already cut and has been air drying for a while, sealing
the ends is not necessary. snip

And often not possible. Depending on the wood, and the conditions, it may
have checked (split) quite a ways in from the end. How much you lose from
the end is difficult to predict, without more information. The sooner you
seal, the better.

Woodturners, who often use very green wood, like to get there before the
chain saws cool down.

The point is to try to even out the moisture migration process, to let the
stresses balance slowly.

Patriarch

You guys are kind of missing the point of why we kiln dry lumber.
It's not only to dry the wood in a hurry compared to air drying. It
also "sets" the cells of the lumber making it stable. In the old days
lumber was primarily quarter sawn , right? The reason is that they
didn't have the kilns like we do today. We actually air dry a lot of
our lumber but always run it through the kiln, with the exception of a
portion of carving wood. I'm not saying it's not perfectly fine to use
air dried lumber for some projects but it's definately not for
everything.

On 19 Nov 2004 14:42:04 -0800, (Jana) wrote:

You guys are kind of missing the point of why we kiln dry lumber.
It's not only to dry the wood in a hurry compared to air drying. It
also "sets" the cells of the lumber making it stable.

********. It partially polymerises some resin on softwood, making it
vaguely stable enough to fool most of the people. It's still no
substitute for putting it through a dozen fully-equilibriated wet/dry
cycles as a stabilisation process. Now unless you have copious free
energy and a couple of months, the best way to do this is still to
air-dry, then continue seasoning for a few years.

In the old days lumber was primarily quarter sawn , right?

No.


--
Smert' spamionam

For an alleged sawmill lady you come up with the most ridiculous statements.
Compression setting of the wood in a kiln is a desired outcome? Really?
Have you never heard of honeycomb? Further, as demonstrated by data from
FPL, as graphed in Hoadley, repeated moisture cycles equalize air and kiln
dried stock in stability.

The reason the old folks used quartered stuff is they had stock big enough,
and enough of it. If you saw for a living, you probably know the difference
between sawing for yield and sawing for grade. They knew it moved less
across the face of the board, and more important, it was easier to select
pattern and color-match for glue-ups if desired. Then there are those woods
which show ray figure on the quartered face....

"Jana" wrote in message
om...

You guys are kind of missing the point of why we kiln dry lumber.
It's not only to dry the wood in a hurry compared to air drying. It
also "sets" the cells of the lumber making it stable. In the old days
lumber was primarily quarter sawn , right? The reason is that they
didn't have the kilns like we do today. We actually air dry a lot of
our lumber but always run it through the kiln, with the exception of a
portion of carving wood. I'm not saying it's not perfectly fine to use
air dried lumber for some projects but it's definately not for
everything.

"George" george@least wrote in message ...
For an alleged sawmill lady you come up with the most ridiculous statements.
Compression setting of the wood in a kiln is a desired outcome? Really?
Have you never heard of honeycomb? Further, as demonstrated by data from
FPL, as graphed in Hoadley, repeated moisture cycles equalize air and kiln
dried stock in stability.

The reason the old folks used quartered stuff is they had stock big enough,
and enough of it. If you saw for a living, you probably know the difference
between sawing for yield and sawing for grade. They knew it moved less
across the face of the board, and more important, it was easier to select
pattern and color-match for glue-ups if desired. Then there are those woods
which show ray figure on the quartered face....

"Jana" wrote in message
om...

You guys are kind of missing the point of why we kiln dry lumber.
It's not only to dry the wood in a hurry compared to air drying. It
also "sets" the cells of the lumber making it stable. In the old days
lumber was primarily quarter sawn , right? The reason is that they
didn't have the kilns like we do today. We actually air dry a lot of
our lumber but always run it through the kiln, with the exception of a
portion of carving wood. I'm not saying it's not perfectly fine to use
air dried lumber for some projects but it's definately not for
everything.

George, I'd say having over 400,000 bf of various species of dried
and air drying lumber moves me out of the alleged catagory. Of course
I know what the term "honeycomb" is. I didn't say anything about the
process of which lumber is kiln dried. Every species varies a bit as
to the method, so I'm not going into detail. I'm just pointing out
that kiln dried lumber is more stable.Why do you think it's taken down
to 6%?

"Jana" wrote in message

I'm just pointing out that kiln dried lumber is more stable.

References please.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/04

On 21 Nov 2004 08:59:31 -0800, (Jana) wrote:

I'm just pointing out
that kiln dried lumber is more stable.Why do you think it's taken down
to 6%?

You really don't have a clue, do you ? You not only tell your
customers this "Only bone-dri (tm) kilned wood is stable" rubbish, you
actually believe it yourself.


--
Smert' spamionam

The biggest bonus to the end user of KD that I read was bugs get
killed when KD. Of course there is plenty of old furniture around that
was not KD and has survived hundreds of years. May the value of KD is
in home building if you use a species of wood that has lots of bugs
waiting to bore out.

Andy Dingley wrote:

On 21 Nov 2004 08:59:31 -0800, (Jana) wrote:

I'm just pointing out
that kiln dried lumber is more stable.Why do you think it's taken down
to 6%?

You really don't have a clue, do you ? You not only tell your
customers this "Only bone-dri (tm) kilned wood is stable" rubbish, you
actually believe it yourself.

On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 21:09:04 GMT, Jim Behning
wrote:

The biggest bonus to the end user of KD that I read was bugs get
killed when KD.

So what ? Few bugs that eat green timber also eat dry timber. Bugs
that eat dry timber are generally capable of flying in and finding it
for themselves.

Now your local bug species will vary, but I know my waney edged stacks
came into the shed absolutely _full_ of longhorn beetles, and I don't
mind their company one bit. They eat oak sapwood, they rarely burrow
into the heartwood, and when they fly off to lay again they're looking
for standing timber, not my stocks.

I've had more Evil Critters (i.e. powder post beetles) come into the
workshop in old chisel handles (instant firewood) or old moulding
planes (rapid squirting with Juice-Of-Death) than I ever had in green
or air-dried timber.

--
Smert' spamionam

On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 22:10:29 +0000, Andy Dingley wrote:

On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 21:09:04 GMT, Jim Behning
wrote:

The biggest bonus to the end user of KD that I read was bugs get killed
when KD.

So what ? Few bugs that eat green timber also eat dry timber. Bugs that
eat dry timber are generally capable of flying in and finding it for
themselves.
[snip]

My old departed contractor pappy always used KD framing lumber since the
shrinking was avoided and nothing twisted or warped after the framing was
done. He was always on the boyz to keep the stacks covered 'til used and
avoided framing if possible until things could be covered before getting
rained on - in western Washington State (similar to merry old England).
He also insisted nothing be more tha 1/8" out of square, plumb and level
over the full dimensions of the project and within any major feature - not
easy to do!

-Doug

KD construction lumber? If it sat in a warehouse for a couple weeks it
was already changing. Those pieces on the outside of the pallet were at EMC
within 2-3 weeks, while the inside were less adapted. Of course, once
installed, they all equalized at EMC anyway, so what purpose was served by
the process escapes me.

Though, come to think, Seattle would be about the perfect climate for the
"S-Dry" 20% studs. They'd only pick up a little bit of extra moisture....

"Doug Winterburn" wrote in message
news
My old departed contractor pappy always used KD framing lumber since the
shrinking was avoided and nothing twisted or warped after the framing was
done. He was always on the boyz to keep the stacks covered 'til used and
avoided framing if possible until things could be covered before getting
rained on - in western Washington State (similar to merry old England).
He also insisted nothing be more tha 1/8" out of square, plumb and level
over the full dimensions of the project and within any major feature - not
easy to do!

-Doug

On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 07:31:26 -0500, George wrote:

KD construction lumber? If it sat in a warehouse for a couple weeks it
was already changing. Those pieces on the outside of the pallet were at
EMC within 2-3 weeks, while the inside were less adapted. Of course, once
installed, they all equalized at EMC anyway, so what purpose was served by
the process escapes me.

After framing many buildings with KD vs green, the results reveal the
purpose of KD - straight walls that remain straight, no cracks in finish
walls after drying, etc. IOW, quality construction that lasts.

-Doug

OK, your straw man is "green."

My point is that KD means very little once it leaves the kiln.


"Doug Winterburn" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 07:31:26 -0500, George wrote:

KD construction lumber? If it sat in a warehouse for a couple weeks
it
was already changing. Those pieces on the outside of the pallet were at
EMC within 2-3 weeks, while the inside were less adapted. Of course,
once
installed, they all equalized at EMC anyway, so what purpose was served
by
the process escapes me.

After framing many buildings with KD vs green, the results reveal the
purpose of KD - straight walls that remain straight, no cracks in finish
walls after drying, etc. IOW, quality construction that lasts.

-Doug

On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 12:13:54 -0500, George wrote:

OK, your straw man is "green."

My point is that KD means very little once it leaves the kiln.

Probably not if you float it down the river to the construction site, but
KD is normally wrapped for some protection from the weather. Are you
suggesting there is no difference in construction quality using KD and non
KD lumber both having been kept in a reasonable environment?

-Doug

On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 07:48:00 -0700, Doug Winterburn
wrote:

After framing many buildings with KD vs green, the results reveal the
purpose of KD - straight walls that remain straight,

So who is talking about green timber ? We're talking kilned vs.
air-dried.

My toolchest drawers (air-dried) are still working in this weather. My
friend's (kilned) are jammed shut. I often work with larch - kilning
that it is fit only for the pretzel factory.

There are two drawbacks to kilned timber, neither of which is really a
drawback, just a "non advantage" that is falsely claimed for it. One
is the low moisture content - sure it's that dry when it leaves the
kiln, but nothing is going to keep it at that level, once it
equilibriates. Secondly the stability - kilned timber is no more
stable than air-dried, and _considerably_ less stable than good
air-dried timber that has been seasoned several seasons, longer than
is minimally necessary to get the MC down. Older wood does become
less sensitive to moisture changes, and this (crudely speaking) is
tied to its age in slow cycles. A "fast bake" is no substitute.

--
Smert' spamionam

On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 18:13:15 +0000, Andy Dingley
wrote:

On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 07:48:00 -0700, Doug Winterburn
wrote:

After framing many buildings with KD vs green, the results reveal the
purpose of KD - straight walls that remain straight,

So who is talking about green timber ? We're talking kilned vs.
air-dried.

My toolchest drawers (air-dried) are still working in this weather. My
friend's (kilned) are jammed shut. I often work with larch - kilning
that it is fit only for the pretzel factory.

There are two drawbacks to kilned timber, neither of which is really a
drawback, just a "non advantage" that is falsely claimed for it. One
is the low moisture content - sure it's that dry when it leaves the
kiln, but nothing is going to keep it at that level, once it
equilibriates. Secondly the stability - kilned timber is no more
stable than air-dried, and _considerably_ less stable than good
air-dried timber that has been seasoned several seasons, longer than
is minimally necessary to get the MC down. Older wood does become
less sensitive to moisture changes, and this (crudely speaking) is
tied to its age in slow cycles. A "fast bake" is no substitute.


skillfully kiln dried lumber is generally fine to work with.
'specially if you give it a few months in the rack before you start
cutting.... : ^ )

poorly kiln dried lumber is flat out ruined. case hardened stuff goes
wild as soon as the blade hits it...

On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 18:13:15 +0000, Andy Dingley wrote:


So who is talking about green timber ? We're talking kilned vs.
air-dried.

My toolchest drawers (air-dried) are still working in this weather. My
friend's (kilned) are jammed shut. I often work with larch - kilning that
it is fit only for the pretzel factory.

There are two drawbacks to kilned timber, neither of which is really a
drawback, just a "non advantage" that is falsely claimed for it. One is
the low moisture content - sure it's that dry when it leaves the kiln, but
nothing is going to keep it at that level, once it equilibriates.
Secondly the stability - kilned timber is no more stable than air-dried,
and _considerably_ less stable than good air-dried timber that has been
seasoned several seasons, longer than is minimally necessary to get the MC
down. Older wood does become less sensitive to moisture changes, and this
(crudely speaking) is tied to its age in slow cycles. A "fast bake" is no
substitute.

Fine. You frame your house with non KD lumber. I'll go for KD doug fir.
Good luck.

-Doug

Nope, As I mentioned in the original post, 20% as is the standard in US is a
good all-purpose MC for wood used in construction. In Seattle, might be a
touch low. Here, a touch high.

Makes no difference with rain. Casual water is gone in a day, unless you
stand the board in it.

But hey, it was a minor point, though instructive, that the MC of wood
leaving the kiln is meaningless a week later - period.

"Doug Winterburn" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 12:13:54 -0500, George wrote:

OK, your straw man is "green."

My point is that KD means very little once it leaves the kiln.

Probably not if you float it down the river to the construction site, but
KD is normally wrapped for some protection from the weather. Are you
suggesting there is no difference in construction quality using KD and non
KD lumber both having been kept in a reasonable environment?

-Doug

On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 11:02:09 -0700, Doug Winterburn
wrote:

Are you
suggesting there is no difference in construction quality using KD and non
KD lumber both having been kept in a reasonable environment?

I would. With the emphasis on "reasonable" environment. In my
climate outside the peak of Summer I couldn't keep kilned timber
remotely near the MC it was originally delivered with. Maybe for
interior shopfitting work in a completed building I could do it, but
certainly not for "construction".

OTOH, the only "construction grade" timber I'm likely to see is
kilned, not air-dried, so this question is rather academic. And the
building work that I do myself is more likely to be green timber
trad-framing anyway.

On the third hand, I'm not doing construction work anyway, I'm a
furniture maker and working mainly with temperate local hardwoods.
There's an attitude of superiority amongst kiln operators that their
timber is superior, even their boil-in-the-bag beech. yet for
long-term stability it's not a patch on air-dried. I don't work to
1/8" accuracy, that's my idea of an aesthetic size increment between
two adjacent rails. I think of "accurate" and "stable" as being when I
can't feel any step when I run a finger over the surface, or that a
joint won't start to telegraph through a veneer layer in decades to
come.

--
Smert' spamionam

On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 13:07:31 -0700, Doug Winterburn
wrote:

Fine. You frame your house with non KD lumber. I'll go for KD doug fir.

Well if I could get it, I might do. I can get air-dried douglas fir,
but it's premium stuff at premium prices, not construction. The real
reason for construction timber being kilned is that it's cheaper that
way - nothing wrong with that.

Besides which, I'm in the UK. We don't frame our houses - we're smart
little piggies and build them out of bricks. 8-)

--
Smert' spamionam

On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 21:29:45 +0000, Andy Dingley wrote:

On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 13:07:31 -0700, Doug Winterburn
wrote:

Fine. You frame your house with non KD lumber. I'll go for KD doug fir.

Well if I could get it, I might do. I can get air-dried douglas fir, but
it's premium stuff at premium prices, not construction. The real reason
for construction timber being kilned is that it's cheaper that way -
nothing wrong with that.

KD doug fir certainly isn't cheaper than non KD doug fir over here!


Besides which, I'm in the UK. We don't frame our houses - we're smart
little piggies and build them out of bricks. 8-)

Watching a fellow and his wife building a concrete house formed up with
styrofoam to be left on as insulation. From the amount of rebar, it
should be around a while.

-Doug

On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 15:47:28 -0700, Doug Winterburn
wrote:

KD doug fir certainly isn't cheaper than non KD doug fir over here!

I still don't think you appreciate what George and I are both saying -
there are three sorts of timber, not two; kilned, air-dried and green
or semi-green. We're not claiming that this _undried_ timber is
better / drier / more stable than kilned, just that properly air-dried
and long-seasoned timber is. Air-dried is the primo stuff, and
expensive, because it's such a slow process.

I don't know a source for non-kilned, non-premium Douglas fir around
here. OK, so the sawyers will have the odd tree, but that's
negligible. If I had a timber-framing project that was using it, I'd
buy it as standing trees. There's a tiny amount as decorative timber
that's air-dried, but that's a rarity too. The bulk construction
warehouse trade stuff is _all_ kilned. If there was any around that
was cheaper because it was less than dry (which seems to be the stuff
you're talking about), then it's just not visible. Almost all is
imported - it's dried before they ship it.

--
Smert' spamionam

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 00:02:44 +0000, Andy Dingley wrote:

On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 15:47:28 -0700, Doug Winterburn
wrote:

KD doug fir certainly isn't cheaper than non KD doug fir over here!

I still don't think you appreciate what George and I are both saying -
there are three sorts of timber, not two; kilned, air-dried and green or
semi-green. We're not claiming that this _undried_ timber is better /
drier / more stable than kilned, just that properly air-dried and
long-seasoned timber is. Air-dried is the primo stuff, and expensive,
because it's such a slow process.

No argument, but this is not as common in the US with framing lumber as it
is with hardwoods.


I don't know a source for non-kilned, non-premium Douglas fir around
here.
OK, so the sawyers will have the odd tree, but that's negligible. If I
had a timber-framing project that was using it, I'd buy it as standing
trees. There's a tiny amount as decorative timber that's air-dried, but
that's a rarity too. The bulk construction warehouse trade stuff is
_all_ kilned. If there was any around that was cheaper because it was
less than dry (which seems to be the stuff you're talking about), then
it's just not visible. Almost all is imported - it's dried before they
ship it.

In the US Borgs, you won't find KD lumber. You will see doug fir labeled
as green as well as hemlock fir. That's why it turns to boat lumber asa
soon as you get it out of the stack and home and why it squirts water as
you drive a nail into it. To get KD, you need to go to a non Borg
commercial yard.

-Doug

You need to check your labels. S-Dry is the standard for construction
lumber. Has more to do with durability than stability. If you don't get
wood below about 25% MC you get mold. Thus the 20% standard. If you can
find a green (other than color in PT) 2x4, take a picture of the grade stamp
and post it for all of us.

http://www.alliancelumber.com/faqs.html

Doug might be confusing grade with degree of dryness. Appearance grades are
dried to a lower initial MC than construction grades.


"Doug Winterburn" wrote in message
news
In the US Borgs, you won't find KD lumber. You will see doug fir labeled
as green as well as hemlock fir. That's why it turns to boat lumber asa
soon as you get it out of the stack and home and why it squirts water as
you drive a nail into it. To get KD, you need to go to a non Borg
commercial yard.

-Doug

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 08:05:23 -0500, George wrote:

You need to check your labels. S-Dry is the standard for construction
lumber. Has more to do with durability than stability. If you don't get
wood below about 25% MC you get mold. Thus the 20% standard. If you can
find a green (other than color in PT) 2x4, take a picture of the grade
stamp and post it for all of us.

http://www.winterburn.net/temp/green_doug_fir.jpg


http://www.alliancelumber.com/faqs.html

Doug might be confusing grade with degree of dryness. Appearance grades
are dried to a lower initial MC than construction grades.

I'll be dipped in sh*t. Now, other than landscape timber, what for?

Can't build with green under any code.

"Doug Winterburn" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 08:05:23 -0500, George wrote:

You need to check your labels. S-Dry is the standard for construction
lumber. Has more to do with durability than stability. If you don't
get
wood below about 25% MC you get mold. Thus the 20% standard. If you
can
find a green (other than color in PT) 2x4, take a picture of the grade
stamp and post it for all of us.

http://www.winterburn.net/temp/green_doug_fir.jpg


http://www.alliancelumber.com/faqs.html

Doug might be confusing grade with degree of dryness. Appearance grades
are dried to a lower initial MC than construction grades.

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 17:16:44 -0500, George wrote:

I'll be dipped in sh*t. Now, other than landscape timber, what for?

Can't build with green under any code.

You go down the dimensional framing lumber aisle, and other than cedar and
redwood, it's all "green doug fir". And they do build with it and get it
approved. As I said at the beginning of this thread, I wouldn't use it.

-Doug

"Doug Winterburn" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 08:05:23 -0500, George wrote:

You need to check your labels. S-Dry is the standard for construction
lumber. Has more to do with durability than stability. If you don't
get
wood below about 25% MC you get mold. Thus the 20% standard. If you
can
find a green (other than color in PT) 2x4, take a picture of the grade
stamp and post it for all of us.

http://www.winterburn.net/temp/green_doug_fir.jpg

Looks like green pressure treated...

http://www.alliancelumber.com/faqs.html

Doug might be confusing grade with degree of dryness. Appearance grades
are dried to a lower initial MC than construction grades.

Here's the answer. http://www.wwpa.org/dfir.htm

Go to "Moisture content and seasoning. I imagine they're trying to avoid
what we've all come up against at one time or another, the ability of fully
dry DF to reject a nail. One of the reasons why eastern Hemlock wasn't used
much.

"Doug Winterburn" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 17:16:44 -0500, George wrote:

I'll be dipped in sh*t. Now, other than landscape timber, what for?

Can't build with green under any code.

You go down the dimensional framing lumber aisle, and other than cedar and
redwood, it's all "green doug fir". And they do build with it and get it
approved. As I said at the beginning of this thread, I wouldn't use it.

-Doug

On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 04:16:20 -0500, John Keeney wrote:


"Doug Winterburn" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 08:05:23 -0500, George wrote:

You need to check your labels. S-Dry is the standard for construction
lumber. Has more to do with durability than stability. If you don't
get
wood below about 25% MC you get mold. Thus the 20% standard. If you
can
find a green (other than color in PT) 2x4, take a picture of the grade
stamp and post it for all of us.

http://www.winterburn.net/temp/green_doug_fir.jpg

Looks like green pressure treated...

Nope, just green as in green vs dry. The color is light tan. The PT is
definitely green (and sometimes brown) in color and marked as pressure
treated.

-Doug

On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 07:29:20 -0500, George wrote:

Here's the answer. http://www.wwpa.org/dfir.htm

Go to "Moisture content and seasoning. I imagine they're trying to avoid
what we've all come up against at one time or another, the ability of
fully dry DF to reject a nail. One of the reasons why eastern Hemlock
wasn't used much.

Never had that problem with fresh KD DF, but my mothers 100+ year old
house has full 2" rough cut DF framing and driving a nail into this stuff
is almost impossible.

-Doug

This appears to be a hornets nest but I'll wade in. Kiln dried lumber
has some advantages.It has been held straight while going thriugh
cycles and there fore has less tendeny to warp.(Air Dried can have the
same.) The sap has been set( If you saw yellow pine and air dry you
might have a expierance of the rings coming apart.)The last portion of
kiln drying is a heat cycle that makes the sap solid. The water held in
wood is in two different parts of the board. Air drying does not
release the celler water kiln drying does. The celleur water does not
cause the major warpage but is a dimensional problem.
Now talkiing about older furniture. The masters built there works
understanding what they had and built it for that mediam. Air dryed
lumber has its advaaantages and that is being dried to the area that it
is going to be used. It has a better musical resonates. Its cheaper.
The problem is that any wood that isn't kiln dried is considered air
dried, this is totally wrong. Air dried is when it has been dried
sticked and dried appropiately.

I believe the question was about sticker. Sticker for your purpose should
be 3/4 x 3/4 to 1 x 1, no bigger than necessary. Many people will use the
narrow boards to stick their lumber but this encourage sticker stain, the
wood will not dry properly under the stickers. Also do not use stickers
that are stained if they are the same species as you are drying.

Why do we kiln dry? The big mills started kiln drying to keep their
inventory to a minimal. Can you just imagine a mill sawing 1 million bd ft
per day and holding all that lumber till it is dry. The market then started
demanding kiln dry wood. It does minimize warpage in house building. Now
hardwood used for furniture is not to be compared to structural lumber.
Many building supplies have their kiln dry lumber outside in the rain and a
lot of the time they are just as wet as green lumber.

Another thing that we should remember that most lumber whether air dry or
kiln dry is ruin by leaving it in the sun. I have seen 2 inch oak
completely ruin in 2 days in the sun. Lumber waiting to get into the kiln
should be protected. Somebody mentioned larch in the dry kiln, now there is
one species that really hate sun, best done slowly and out of the sun.

Have fun guys with your woodworking not by insulting one another.

Eric