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| Woodworking (rec.woodworking) Discussion forum covering all aspects of working with wood. All levels of expertise are encouraged to particiapte. |
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#1
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I got Shilled on Ebay
So I think I got caught a Ebay seller in the act of Shilling! There
was a drill press for sale in the town I live in that I went on-site to inspect. While there the seller mentioned he put on bid in for $25. I quietly took note of this. Now today, with seconds to go the same user account that made the inital bid of 25 places a much higher bid. I ended up winning the item due to a high proxy bid, but it looks like he did not want to let that drill press go for the $37.00 my bid would have won it for. Instead he drove the price up to $73. I've sent him an email asking for his insight onto this and will report it to ebay. I'd like to see if he reply's and comes clean on his own. Any thoughts? |
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#2
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On 11 Nov 2004 10:49:25 -0800, slindars wrote:
So I think I got caught a Ebay seller in the act of Shilling! (snip) I'd like to see if he reply's and comes clean on his own. Any thoughts? He probably won't, and in any case, you owe it to the rest of eBay's community to report him to SafeHarbor. At a very minimum, if you are sure of what you say, comment on same in the feedback for this auction. SafeHarbor will, if presented what you've said here, most likely look at this and his other auctions to see if there is a pattern, and will proceed accordingly. Dave Hinz |
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#4
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This is so cool. Talk about being caught red handed. Send him a copy of
the recent press about what the AG in NY did to shillers -- then tell him to deliver the thing to you for $20. On 11 Nov 2004 10:49:25 -0800, (slindars) wrote: So I think I got caught a Ebay seller in the act of Shilling! There was a drill press for sale in the town I live in that I went on-site to inspect. While there the seller mentioned he put on bid in for $25. I quietly took note of this. Now today, with seconds to go the same user account that made the inital bid of 25 places a much higher bid. I ended up winning the item due to a high proxy bid, but it looks like he did not want to let that drill press go for the $37.00 my bid would have won it for. Instead he drove the price up to $73. I've sent him an email asking for his insight onto this and will report it to ebay. I'd like to see if he reply's and comes clean on his own. Any thoughts? |
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#5
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On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 19:50:56 GMT, Doug Miller wrote:
In article , (slindars) wrote: So I think I got caught a Ebay seller in the act of Shilling! My first thought is astonishment that eBay's software would permit one to bid on one's own auctions. It doesn't. But, if he has more than one account (also a SafeHarbor violation), then it's trivial to do. That's one thing they'll look at, to see if the losing bidder (or winning bidder) for that same person's auctions is frequently the suspected shill account. That could be a legit pattern (two collectors of similar objects), or it could be fraud. In this case, the latter seems to be the case. Dave Hinz |
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#7
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#9
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#10
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(Doug Miller) wrote in message . com...
In article , (slindars) wrote: So I think I got caught a Ebay seller in the act of Shilling! There was a drill press for sale in the town I live in that I went on-site to inspect. While there the seller mentioned he put on bid in for $25. I quietly took note of this. ... he drove the price up to $73. I've sent him an email asking for his insight onto this and will report it to ebay. I'd like to see if he reply's and comes clean on his own. Any thoughts? My first thought is astonishment that eBay's software would permit one to bid on one's own auctions. It may be contrary to eBay policy but as a practical matter one can have more than one eBay account. However, eBay has a 'reserve bid' system. The seller may set a reserve price which will be minimum acceptable winning bid. I daresay that a bidder who shill bids on his own merchandize probably does not understand that feature. A seller who bids on and wins his own auction owes eBay more than one whose auction fails to meet the reserve bid, right? -- FF |
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#11
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#12
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#13
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Sounds to me like typical sniping (not against the rules), not the seller
shilling(definite no-no). The first bidder bids $25, you come along a and place a higher bid, the first bidder decides to use a sniping site to place a bid seconds before the auction ends. You win because your bid via Ebay was simply higher than the bid he placed via the sniping site. You can report it, but unless there's a connection between the two accounts, you are likely SOL. From what you have said, I can see why you are peeved, you had to pay $73 vs. the $37 it was at until the last second bid was placed. I also can't see how you can conclude that the seller shilled you unless you have some other information. "slindars" wrote in message om... So I think I got caught a Ebay seller in the act of Shilling! There was a drill press for sale in the town I live in that I went on-site to inspect. While there the seller mentioned he put on bid in for $25. I quietly took note of this. Now today, with seconds to go the same user account that made the inital bid of 25 places a much higher bid. I ended up winning the item due to a high proxy bid, but it looks like he did not want to let that drill press go for the $37.00 my bid would have won it for. Instead he drove the price up to $73. I've sent him an email asking for his insight onto this and will report it to ebay. I'd like to see if he reply's and comes clean on his own. Any thoughts? |
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#14
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"slindars" wrote in message om... So I think I got caught a Ebay seller in the act of Shilling! There was a drill press for sale in the town I live in that I went on-site to inspect. While there the seller mentioned he put on bid in for $25. The seller told you he bid on his own auction? That doesn't make sense. |
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#16
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"slindars" wrote in message om... So I think I got caught a Ebay seller in the act of Shilling! There was a drill press for sale in the town I live in that I went on-site to inspect. While there the seller mentioned he put on bid in for $25. I quietly took note of this. Now today, with seconds to go the same user account that made the inital bid of 25 places a much higher bid. I ended up winning the item due to a high proxy bid, but it looks like he did not want to let that drill press go for the $37.00 my bid would have won it for. Instead he drove the price up to $73. I've sent him an email asking for his insight onto this and will report it to ebay. I'd like to see if he reply's and comes clean on his own. Any thoughts? Was the person showing you the drill press handling the sell/display for someone else per chance? Say, a business he worked for? I don't doult it happens, but most people are a little brighter than admit it to strangers. |
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#17
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slindars wrote:
So I think I got caught a Ebay seller in the act of Shilling! There was a drill press for sale in the town I live in that I went on-site to inspect. While there the seller mentioned he put on bid in for $25. I quietly took note of this. Now today, with seconds to go the same user account that made the inital bid of 25 places a much higher bid. I ended up winning the item due to a high proxy bid, but it looks like he did not want to let that drill press go for the $37.00 my bid would have won it for. Instead he drove the price up to $73. I've sent him an email asking for his insight onto this and will report it to ebay. I'd like to see if he reply's and comes clean on his own. Any thoughts? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...0769 536&rd=1 I didn't see any pattern between the seller and alledged shiller, but who knows. FWIW, $73 still seems like a decent price. I understand that shilling is illegal, immoral, wrong, etc...but keep things in perspective. |
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#18
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In article ,
Tim Douglass wrote: On 11 Nov 2004 18:55:19 GMT, DY (Tom) wrote: Scott wrote: So I think I got caught a Ebay seller in the act of Shilling! There was a drill press for sale in the town I live in that I went on-site to inspect. While there the seller mentioned he put on bid in for $25. I quietly took note of this. Now today, with seconds to go the same user account that made the inital bid of 25 places a much higher bid. I ended up winning the item due to a high proxy bid, but it looks like he did not want to let that drill press go for the $37.00 my bid would have won it for. Instead he drove the price up to $73. I've sent him an email asking for his insight onto this and will report it to ebay. I'd like to see if he reply's and comes clean on his own. Any thoughts? The seller put in a bid?? Caveat emptor. What size drill press? Tom Work at your leisure! A seller bidding on their own auction is, in the U.S. at least, a crime and you can do time for it. Got a _cite_ for that statute? Sellers who do that are thieves and should be pointed out as such. |
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#19
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On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 16:19:31 +0000, (Robert
Bonomi) wrote: A seller bidding on their own auction is, in the U.S. at least, a crime and you can do time for it. Got a _cite_ for that statute? Actually, it is a matter of state law/regulation. (Some states regulate auctions in some detail by code, others by general law and then by regulation, I vaguely recall.) I can't say it is this in every state, but in most IME. Don't have time now to look one up, but you can try findlaw.com or many state websites -- e.g., www.ca.gov -- for actual code language. -- Igor |
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#20
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"Robert Bonomi" wrote in message
news:7dabb$4194e293 Tim Douglass wrote: A seller bidding on their own auction is, in the U.S. at least, a crime and you can do time for it. Got a _cite_ for that statute? How's this? http://www.usdoj.gov/criminal/cyberc...man_indict.htm They were indicted on and plead guilty to both wire and mail fraud for the shill bidding. Each fraud count carries up to 5 years in the slammer. I'm not a lawyer, but I'm guessing they were prosecuted under Title 18, Part 1, Chapter 47, Section 1030.4 of the US Criminal Code, which states "Whoever ... knowingly and with intent to defraud, accesses a protected computer without authorization, or exceeds authorized access, and by means of such conduct furthers the intended fraud and obtains anything of value, unless the object of the fraud and the thing obtained consists only of the use of the computer and the value of such use is not more than $5,000 in any 1-year period ... shall be punished as provided in subsection (c) of this section." http://www.usdoj.gov/criminal/cybercrime/1030NEW.htm todd |
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#21
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On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 10:44:21 -0600, "Todd Fatheree"
wrote: "Robert Bonomi" wrote in message news:7dabb$4194e293 Tim Douglass wrote: A seller bidding on their own auction is, in the U.S. at least, a crime and you can do time for it. Got a _cite_ for that statute? How's this? http://www.usdoj.gov/criminal/cyberc...man_indict.htm Todd -- BTW, my post above is not meant to contradict what you provided -- general wire fraud. My mention of state law refers to specific anti-shill provisions. -- Igor |
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#22
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"igor" wrote in message
... On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 10:44:21 -0600, "Todd Fatheree" wrote: "Robert Bonomi" wrote in message news:7dabb$4194e293 Tim Douglass wrote: A seller bidding on their own auction is, in the U.S. at least, a crime and you can do time for it. Got a _cite_ for that statute? How's this? http://www.usdoj.gov/criminal/cyberc...man_indict.htm Todd -- BTW, my post above is not meant to contradict what you provided -- general wire fraud. My mention of state law refers to specific anti-shill provisions. -- Igor Not at all. I suspect there is more than one way to skin this cat. todd |
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#23
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On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 16:19:31 +0000,
(Robert Bonomi) wrote: In article , Tim Douglass wrote: On 11 Nov 2004 18:55:19 GMT, DY (Tom) wrote: Scott wrote: So I think I got caught a Ebay seller in the act of Shilling! There was a drill press for sale in the town I live in that I went on-site to inspect. While there the seller mentioned he put on bid in for $25. I quietly took note of this. Now today, with seconds to go the same user account that made the inital bid of 25 places a much higher bid. I ended up winning the item due to a high proxy bid, but it looks like he did not want to let that drill press go for the $37.00 my bid would have won it for. Instead he drove the price up to $73. I've sent him an email asking for his insight onto this and will report it to ebay. I'd like to see if he reply's and comes clean on his own. Any thoughts? The seller put in a bid?? Caveat emptor. What size drill press? Tom Work at your leisure! A seller bidding on their own auction is, in the U.S. at least, a crime and you can do time for it. Got a _cite_ for that statute? Nope, but several years ago I sat on a Federal grand jury and we brought indictments in two bid-rigging cases. One was collusion to not bid to keep the price low, one was shill bidding at an open auction (think estate auction). In both cases we brought bills to indict, but I don't know the ultimate resolution of the cases. I can't speak for all states, but under federal statues there is (or at least was then) a law that specifically banned shill bidding. Think about it - if either the seller or the auctioneer (who is paid based on the selling bid) can place bids they can run the price up fast and artificially inflate the selling price. It is fraud because *they are not really bidding to buy* so they cannot lose, they simply keep running the price up until they get what they want. If they happen to win the auction no money changes hands, the item simply has to be re-sold. Tim Douglass http://www.DouglassClan.com |
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#24
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"Robert Bonomi" wrote in message ervers.com... In article , Tim Douglass wrote: On 11 Nov 2004 18:55:19 GMT, DY (Tom) wrote: Scott wrote: So I think I got caught a Ebay seller in the act of Shilling! There A seller bidding on their own auction is, in the U.S. at least, a crime and you can do time for it. Got a _cite_ for that statute? How's this? http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/...ions.htm#legal AW |
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#25
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slindars wrote:
So I think I got caught a Ebay seller in the act of Shilling! There was a drill press for sale in the town I live in that I went on-site to inspect. While there the seller mentioned he put on bid in for $25. I quietly took note of this. Now today, with seconds to go the same user account that made the inital bid of 25 places a much higher bid. I ended up winning the item due to a high proxy bid, but it looks like he did not want to let that drill press go for the $37.00 my bid would have won it for. Instead he drove the price up to $73. I've sent him an email asking for his insight onto this and will report it to ebay. I'd like to see if he reply's and comes clean on his own. Any thoughts? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...9&item=3850769 536&rd=1 I didn't see any pattern between the seller and alledged shiller, but who knows. OK, I'm confused. There were no $25 bids on that auction. The starting price, which the seller sets, was $25. I see absolutely no reason to assume that the other bidder has anything to do with the seller. In fact, they each have been ebay members for 5 years or more and have several hundred feedback comments. Normally a shill has a fairly short lived fake account, not one with massive activity in both buys and sales over 5 years. Dave Hall |
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#26
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In article ,
Todd Fatheree wrote: "Robert Bonomi" wrote in message news:7dabb$4194e293 Tim Douglass wrote: A seller bidding on their own auction is, in the U.S. at least, a crime and you can do time for it. Got a _cite_ for that statute? How's this? http://www.usdoj.gov/criminal/cyberc...man_indict.htm Not very good, actually.  more below. They were indicted on and plead guilty to both wire and mail fraud for the shill bidding. Each fraud count carries up to 5 years in the slammer. I'm not a lawyer, but I'm guessing they were prosecuted under Title 18, Part 1, Chapter 47, Section 1030.4 of the US Criminal Code, which states "Whoever ... knowingly and with intent to defraud, accesses a protected computer without authorization, or exceeds authorized access, and by means of such conduct furthers the intended fraud and obtains anything of value, unless the object of the fraud and the thing obtained consists only of the use of the computer and the value of such use is not more than $5,000 in any 1-year period ... shall be punished as provided in subsection (c) of this section." definitely *not* 18 USC 1030 -- that crime is "_unauthorized_ access to a federal interest computer system". More likely 18 USC 1341 (mail fraud), and 1343 (wire fraud), since that's what it *says* they were charged with. grin These guys were engaged in fraud in the first place, and part of the implementation of that fraud was the bidding under _false_ identities, *concealing* the fact that they were bidding on their items. I do not accept that _any_ bidding by the owner of an item is automatically illegal. Almost any 'partition' legal action -- when the *joint*owners* of an item (typically real-estate, but can be _anything_) cannot agree on a course of action, nor on a buy-out price -- will result in a court-sanctioned auction of the item involved. The owners *are* free to _openly_ bid against each other and any other 'interested party'. Similarly in a 'foreclosure' auction, the 'secured party' (the seller), invariably "reserves the right to bid on it's own behalf" at the auction. |
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#27
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In article ,
Tim Douglass wrote: On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 16:19:31 +0000, (Robert Bonomi) wrote: In article , Tim Douglass wrote: On 11 Nov 2004 18:55:19 GMT, DY (Tom) wrote: Scott wrote: So I think I got caught a Ebay seller in the act of Shilling! There was a drill press for sale in the town I live in that I went on-site to inspect. While there the seller mentioned he put on bid in for $25. I quietly took note of this. Now today, with seconds to go the same user account that made the inital bid of 25 places a much higher bid. I ended up winning the item due to a high proxy bid, but it looks like he did not want to let that drill press go for the $37.00 my bid would have won it for. Instead he drove the price up to $73. I've sent him an email asking for his insight onto this and will report it to ebay. I'd like to see if he reply's and comes clean on his own. Any thoughts? The seller put in a bid?? Caveat emptor. What size drill press? Tom Work at your leisure! A seller bidding on their own auction is, in the U.S. at least, a crime and you can do time for it. Got a _cite_ for that statute? Nope, but several years ago I sat on a Federal grand jury and we brought indictments in two bid-rigging cases. One was collusion to not bid to keep the price low, one was shill bidding at an open auction (think estate auction). In both cases we brought bills to indict, but I don't know the ultimate resolution of the cases. I can't speak for all states, but under federal statues there is (or at least was then) a law that specifically banned shill bidding. I _can't_ find it. The United States Criminal Code is 'Title 18'. The word 'auction' does not appear *anywhere* in that title. The word 'shill' does not appear *anywhere* in that title. The word 'bid', or 'bidding' appears three times, once in relation to post office contracts once in relation to 'public lands' once in relation to contractor offers on public works projects. Feel free to rummage at http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/ to see if you can find what I missed. Note: *repealed* sections of the Code are _also_ present, but you have to check them individually. I _will_ believe that *some* bidding by an item owner may qualify as a form of fraud. I do *NOT* believe that _any_ bid by an item owner is automatically a crime. (more on this below.) Think about it - if either the seller or the auctioneer (who is paid based on the selling bid) can place bids they can run the price up fast and artificially inflate the selling price. Auctioneers _always_ do that, by manipulating the 'next bid' increment that they ask for. If they see lots of bid offers when they're asking for a particular price, they will increase the step they ask for, for the next bid. I've seen bidding go $100, $200, $500, $1000, $3000. I've also seen the bidding go: $5, $6, $7, (from the floor: $30), dead silence. "$31?" "$31?" Sold! Actually, I _did_ it -- as the bidder -- in that last case. 'market' value was around $90, and the rest of the room wasn't knowledgeable in that area. However, they *were* _very_ prone to fall into 'auction fever' and run the price of _anything_ up way over anything rational. So, I pre-empted, before the 'rush' got started. *grin* It is fraud because *they are not really bidding to buy* so they cannot lose, they simply keep running the price up until they get what they want. If they happen to win the auction no money changes hands, the item simply has to be re-sold. *NOT* true, if the _seller_ is the one who bids. If the seller ends up as the high-bidder, The seller owes the auctioneer his 'commission' on the auction. No commission is due if the item does not sell. With the commission ranging from 10% to 20+% of the 'selling' price, this is a _serious_ dis-incentive for the owner to bid, 'just to run the price up'. I am _entirely_ willing to believe that *under*some*circumstances*, the owner bidding on his own item may constitute a form of fraud. I *DO*NOT* accept that _any_ bidding by the owner automatically constitutes an illegal action. There are too many 'foreclosure' auctions, where the property owner (the lender) "reserves the right to bid on the property on it's own behalf", There are too many auctions resulting from 'partition' lawsuits, where the (joint) owners are, *individually*, bidding on their property -- against each other and/or any other prospective buyers. |
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#28
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In article ,
igor wrote: On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 16:19:31 +0000, (Robert Bonomi) wrote: A seller bidding on their own auction is, in the U.S. at least, a crime and you can do time for it. Got a _cite_ for that statute? Actually, it is a matter of state law/regulation. (Some states regulate auctions in some detail by code, others by general law and then by regulation, I vaguely recall.) I can't say it is this in every state, but in most IME. Don't have time now to look one up, but you can try findlaw.com or many state websites -- e.g., www.ca.gov -- for actual code language. -- Igor I've looked in a number of states. Can't find anything that resembles a blanket prohibition on the seller bidding. Foreclosure auctions usually include a notice that the seller (the lender) "reserves the right to bid, in it's own name" 'Partition' auctions -- where the joint owners can't agree on a buy-out, usually have the owners, individually, bidding against each other, and/or any other prospective purchasers. Either of those situations would indicate that there is *not* any such absolute prohibition. |
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#29
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In article ,
alexw wrote: "Robert Bonomi" wrote in message servers.com... In article , Tim Douglass wrote: On 11 Nov 2004 18:55:19 GMT, DY (Tom) wrote: Scott wrote: So I think I got caught a Ebay seller in the act of Shilling! There A seller bidding on their own auction is, in the U.S. at least, a crime and you can do time for it. Got a _cite_ for that statute? How's this? http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/...ions.htm#legal Best I've seen anybody offer so far. But it only proscribes 'shill' bidding by or on behalf of a seller. And I havn't been able to find the supporting FTC regs and/or statute, to see _exact_ language. There are numerous situations where the seller can *legitimately* be bidding on the item up for auction. e.g. a foreclosure auction. the lender almost invariably "reserves the right to bid in it's own name" for the secured item. e.g. a 'partition' lawsuit auction. Where the joint owners cannot agree on a division of the item, it is put up for auction -- and often the owners, *individually*, are bidding against each other, as well as any other possible buyers. I've no reason to doubt that _some_ types of seller bidding are proscribed. I find it hard to believe, particularly given the above examples, that *all* seller bidding is illegal. |
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#30
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On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 08:40:12 +0000,
(Robert Bonomi) wrote: I've looked in a number of states. Can't find anything that resembles a blanket prohibition on the seller bidding. Foreclosure auctions usually include a notice that the seller (the lender) "reserves the right to bid, in it's own name" 'Partition' auctions -- where the joint owners can't agree on a buy-out, usually have the owners, individually, bidding against each other, and/or any other prospective purchasers. Either of those situations would indicate that there is *not* any such absolute prohibition. Sellers can always bid - as long as they do it in their own name and publicly. It is shill bidding, where the seller has someone else bid for him or bids (on the internet) under an assumed name that is illegal. Tim Douglass http://www.DouglassClan.com |
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#31
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#32
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On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 07:59:31 +0000,
(Robert Bonomi) wrote: Actually, I _did_ it -- as the bidder -- in that last case. 'market' value was around $90, and the rest of the room wasn't knowledgeable in that area. However, they *were* _very_ prone to fall into 'auction fever' and run the price of _anything_ up way over anything rational. So, I pre-empted, before the 'rush' got started. *grin* I actually do that a lot on e-bay. It works there as well as anywhere. When people see 5 essentially identical auctions and one has a current bid that is much higher than the others they will avoid that one. Even the snipers seem to skip them. I am _entirely_ willing to believe that *under*some*circumstances*, the owner bidding on his own item may constitute a form of fraud. I *DO*NOT* accept that _any_ bidding by the owner automatically constitutes an illegal action. As I pointed out elsewhere, it is only illegal if you use a shill. Sorry I didn't make that clear the first time around. Collusion (bid rigging) and shill bidding are the two types of auction fraud that are criminal in nature as far as I know. Bid rigging is effectively impossible on e-bay, but is actually fairly common in courthouse steps property auctions. Two or three investors will get together and decide who gets what property and each one will only bid on the one they are supposed to get. In small towns where there may only be a couple of qualified bidders it seems to be most prevalent, since it will obviously only work if *all* the potential bidders are in on the fix. Shill bidding is probably more common on e-bay than most people think, since it is very easy to create multiple accounts. The danger, as you pointed out, is that you get stuck winning the auction. What most will do under those circumstances is cancel the auction and run it again, which allows them to avoid paying the e-bay fees. They may also do the "second chance" thing (or whatever it is called) where they can offer it to the second highest bidder, claiming the high bidder refused to pay. Tim Douglass http://www.DouglassClan.com |
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#33
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#34
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#35
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On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 11:37:26 -0800, Tim Douglass
wrote: Sellers can always bid - as long as they do it in their own name and publicly. I've seen this done in non-reserve live auctions. Other bidders have the option of bidding higher, or letting the seller leave with the item. Barry |
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#36
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In article ,
igor wrote: On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 08:40:12 +0000, (Robert Bonomi) wrote: I've looked in a number of states. Can't find anything that resembles a blanket prohibition on the seller bidding. Foreclosure auctions usually include a notice that the seller (the lender) "reserves the right to bid, in it's own name" 'Partition' auctions -- where the joint owners can't agree on a buy-out, usually have the owners, individually, bidding against each other, and/or any other prospective purchasers. Either of those situations would indicate that there is *not* any such absolute prohibition. For someone who seems determined to have an argument, you might want to do a little better job at research. 1. The fact that in foreclosure auctions there is the reference you found to a self-bidding exception indicates (or suggests, if you wish) that self-bidding is not otherwise allowed unless excepted. So, you got that "absolutely" wrong. Statutory construction 101. Illiterate, incompetent, and incoherent. _If_ an 'exception' exists, it proves conclusively that there is *no* 'absolute', or 'blanket' prohibition. _That_ is covered in 'Introductory Logic', which you apparently missed. I disputed a claim that is is _never_ allowable to bid on your own item. That is _not_ to say that is _always_ allowable to bid on your own item.o !(always forbidden) == sometimes acceptable Spurious arguments claiming 'always acceptable' to be a fallacious claim, while accurate, shows a lack of comprehension. Or a deliberate, premeditated attempt to erect a 'straw man'. The deal here is that an auction such as ebay's is a holding out for sale by open bid. If the owner self-bids or employs someone else to bid as a shill, then the item is not truly being held out for sale by open bid. Not enough for you? Then continue reading ... Suggest you re-read, for comprehension, the actual posting I questioned. A _blanket_ claim that *any* bidding by a seller on his own item was a criminal act, and could get the seller/bidder sent 'up the river.' I was *not* questioning that _under_some_conditions_ that it could be a proscribed act. I was questioning the claim that *any* time a seller bid on his own item, that it was _automatically_ a crime. 2. I gave you a link to the California site. And, I believe that ebay is governed by CA law because it is located there, though I may be wrong about that - and you can check their cite. Anyway, here is what I found at ca.gov: "CALIFORNIA CODE, CIVIL CODE, SECTION 1812.601 "(b) 'Auction' means a sale transaction conducted by means of oral or written exchanges between an auctioneer and the members of his or her audience, which exchanges consist of a series of invitations for offers for the purchase of goods made by the auctioneer and offers to purchase made by members of the audience and culminate in the acceptance by the auctioneer of the highest or most favorable offer made by a member of the participating audience." "audience" does not include owners or shills, even if they are "in the audience" - difference between vulgar English (look up "vulgar") and legalese. Rather, they are "owners" and "agents". Still not enough? Then say, "Please sir, may I have another?" and get ready to be spanked again. 3. Here ya go: "CALIFORNIA CODE, CIVIL CODE, SECTION 1812.608 "In addition to other requirements and prohibitions of this title, it is a violation of this title for any person to do any of the following: ... "(h) Cause or allow any person to bid at a sale for the sole purpose of increasing the bid on any item or items being sold by the auctioneer, except as authorized by Section 2328 of the Commercial Code or by this title. A violation of this subdivision includes, but is not limited to, either of the following: "(1) Stating any increased bid greater than that offered by the last highest bidder when, in fact, no person has made such a bid. "(2) Allowing the owner, consignor, or agent thereof, of any item or items to bid on the item or items, without disclosing to the audience that the owner, consignor, or agent thereof has reserved the right to so bid. "A violation of this subdivision is an infraction subject to a fine of one hundred dollars ($100)." QED 3. If you need more, let me know and I'll send you a fee schedule. -- Igor Such a vehement argument -- in which you *totally* support _my_ original assertation: A seller bidding on his own item is *not* automatically in violation of the law. A seller bidding on his own item, _may_ *under*some* *circumstances* be in violation of the law. The specific post that I questioned, stated _without_qualification_ that if a seller bid on his own item, it was a criminal act. You have provided conclusive evidence that such is _not_ the case. P.S. If your usually that snotty when you're having an "agreement" with somebody, you must be hell to be around, when somebody disagrees with you. |
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In article ,
igor wrote: On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 07:59:31 +0000, (Robert Bonomi) wrote: I am _entirely_ willing to believe that *under*some*circumstances*, the owner bidding on his own item may constitute a form of fraud. I *DO*NOT* accept that _any_ bidding by the owner automatically constitutes an illegal action. There are too many 'foreclosure' auctions, where the property owner (the lender) "reserves the right to bid on the property on it's own behalf", There are too many auctions resulting from 'partition' lawsuits, where the (joint) owners are, *individually*, bidding on their property -- against each other and/or any other prospective buyers. You are making the point you claim to be refuting: Self-bidding is allowed only within certain specific exceptions. Above, you made a reference to "absolute prohibition". There is not even an "absolute prohibition" against killing someone with a gun -- e.g., there is the self-defense exception. Also, in some states you can shoot to kill anyone who breaks into your house while you are at home. Then there is "defense of others". The exceptions themselves make rather clear that there is a "general prohibition" -- even if you have not found it. Maybe someone here said that _any_ owner-bidding is illegal, but I think that is your straw man. You demonstrate you inability to read the prior messages. I quote: "A seller bidding on their own auction is, in the U.S. at least, a crime and you can do time for it. Sellers who do that are thieves and should be pointed out as such." *That* is what I questioned. The fact is that there are laws against owner-bidding, unless excepted (and, generally, disclosed to the other bidders). Thank you, again, for confirming the accuracy of my point -- It is _not_ *always* a crime for the seller to bid on his own items. And, neither of the exceptions you found have anything to do with the auction the OP mentioned. -- Igor. The follow-up I took exception to made a statement about _any_ auction. Note: the poster of that follow-up _has_ agreed that his statement, as written was overly broad. |
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On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 19:58:25 GMT, igor wrote:
Again, your straw man. Who said "all" -- except you? And if someone did, he's wrong. If you wanted to learn something, fine. Argument for argument's sake, not fine. *I* said "all", Igor. It was just a blanket statement with the thought in mind that "all shill bidding is illegal". It didn't come out that way. Tim Douglass http://www.DouglassClan.com |
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On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 15:27:16 -0800, Tim Douglass
wrote: On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 19:58:25 GMT, igor wrote: Again, your straw man. Who said "all" -- except you? And if someone did, he's wrong. If you wanted to learn something, fine. Argument for argument's sake, not fine. *I* said "all", Igor. It was just a blanket statement with the thought in mind that "all shill bidding is illegal". It didn't come out that way. Gee, Tim, and here it is I just posted a long statement in this thread in your defense!!!. (I hate smileys, but one could well go here.) IMO and IME, what you said originally - I could not find the word "all" in your post, but am dyslexic, dog knows why - was fine. You stated the general rule. Correctly. And since we were talking about a single seller's drill press, the exceptions cited _could_ not apply. "Shilling" is not a legal term, IME. However, a dictionary meaning: "n. One who poses as a satisfied customer or an enthusiastic gambler to dupe bystanders into participating in a swindle." From that perspective, if one is acting as a shill, one is presumptively acting illegally -- even if the law uses different terms of art. If one is an owner (or his agent) and bidding openly, the exceptions may apply. But if acting as "a shill", one is _unlikely_ to be able to fit within any exception as there would necessarily be no notice. So, I would say that all shill bidding is illegal. Self-bidding is also illegal, at least in CA, subject to specific exceptions. So Tim, I'll still defend you. For if the dovetail does not fit, you must acquit -- or, at least recut it, or use a chisel, or something. Let me DAGS and get back to you on that. -- Igor |
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