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| Woodworking (rec.woodworking) Discussion forum covering all aspects of working with wood. All levels of expertise are encouraged to particiapte. |
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#1
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Wire thickness
Just built a WW shop about 50' (cable length) from my service panel.
What gauge wire should I be using? 4-4-4-6? If so, should I pull them all individually? Or buy the premade 4-4-4-6? What size conduit? 1.25"? Shop is 16X20, may consider a/c eventually too. Aside from that, I have all the other goodies, Table Saw, dust collector, Compressors, I'll need a ton of lighting, etc... Would I ever really exceed 70 amps? Could I maybe get away with 6-6-6-6? Thoughts? Experience? Thanks! Elmar |
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#2
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You need the size wire your "electrician" tells you.
While the web is handy dandy for many things, getting electrical designs from total strangers is not a reasonable thing to do. Elmar wrote: Just built a WW shop about 50' (cable length) from my service panel. What gauge wire should I be using? 4-4-4-6? If so, should I pull them all individually? Or buy the premade 4-4-4-6? What size conduit? 1.25"? Shop is 16X20, may consider a/c eventually too. Aside from that, I have all the other goodies, Table Saw, dust collector, Compressors, I'll need a ton of lighting, etc... Would I ever really exceed 70 amps? Could I maybe get away with 6-6-6-6? Thoughts? Experience? Thanks! Elmar |
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#3
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Almost any place you buy the cable at can tell you whats recommended. I
will say though that the bigger the conduit the better. Cable doesn't go around corners for diddley squat so get something with plenty of room in it. Grandpa Elmar wrote: Just built a WW shop about 50' (cable length) from my service panel. What gauge wire should I be using? 4-4-4-6? If so, should I pull them all individually? Or buy the premade 4-4-4-6? What size conduit? 1.25"? Shop is 16X20, may consider a/c eventually too. Aside from that, I have all the other goodies, Table Saw, dust collector, Compressors, I'll need a ton of lighting, etc... Would I ever really exceed 70 amps? Could I maybe get away with 6-6-6-6? Thoughts? Experience? Thanks! Elmar |
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#4
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First thing you should do is figure out your maximum current draw. Figure
out what you have now and what you are likely to have down the road. Then pick an appropriate size load center and run the feeder to it. is this an attached workshop or detached? if detached you will probably be required to install an additional ground rod. If detached its probably best to run underground feeder cable. if attached you can probably use NM cable (Romex) if this is allowed for your application, but you can't run Romex in conduit or outside at all. I would not reduce the size of your neutral or ground wire, even if it is allowed if running single wires. if you run a cable you have to take what they give you. The 50' distance probably will not result in all that much of a voltage drop however you may want to upsize your wires just to reduce any voltage drop when things are switched on. if you do this make sure you upsize your ground wire size as well. "Elmar" wrote in message om... Just built a WW shop about 50' (cable length) from my service panel. What gauge wire should I be using? 4-4-4-6? If so, should I pull them all individually? Or buy the premade 4-4-4-6? What size conduit? 1.25"? Shop is 16X20, may consider a/c eventually too. Aside from that, I have all the other goodies, Table Saw, dust collector, Compressors, I'll need a ton of lighting, etc... Would I ever really exceed 70 amps? Could I maybe get away with 6-6-6-6? Thoughts? Experience? Thanks! Elmar |
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#5
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Grandpa jsdebooATcomcast.net wrote:
Almost any place you buy the cable at can tell you whats recommended. I will say though that the bigger the conduit the better. Cable doesn't go around corners for diddley squat so get something with plenty of room in it. Then go one size bigger. I'd say 24" conduit sounds about comfortable enough.  -- Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621 http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/ http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/ |
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#6
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Wire and conduit are the things where labor exceeds the cost of the materials.
That said, I would think #4 in 1 1/4" pipe should be enough for a one man shop and A/C. The extra size pipe just makes pulling a bit easier and could be used for a bigger size if you guessed wrong. |
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#7
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That's why I asked for people's EXPERIENCE....
No offense, but I am not spending a grand for some yahoo to do the same job I can do for $200. I am VERY familiar with running electricity and how to accomplish the job. I was looking for wire size recommendations. Pat Barber wrote in message ... You need the size wire your "electrician" tells you. While the web is handy dandy for many things, getting electrical designs from total strangers is not a reasonable thing to do. |
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#8
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Pull individual wires!!!!! I did #6 with 60 amp service. Its more than
adequate for my one man shop. I figure my maximum simultaneous draw (220v) will never exceed 30 amps. (3hp table saw, 2hp dust collector, lights, small shop heater). That would leave room for an air conditioner, if I ever do that. sigh Bob "Elmar" wrote in message om... Just built a WW shop about 50' (cable length) from my service panel. What gauge wire should I be using? 4-4-4-6? If so, should I pull them all individually? Or buy the premade 4-4-4-6? What size conduit? 1.25"? Shop is 16X20, may consider a/c eventually too. Aside from that, I have all the other goodies, Table Saw, dust collector, Compressors, I'll need a ton of lighting, etc... Would I ever really exceed 70 amps? Could I maybe get away with 6-6-6-6? Thoughts? Experience? Thanks! Elmar |
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#9
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#10
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Good afternoon Elmar,
According to my "Pocket Ref" (ISBN 1-885071-00-0), the following applies for 240 VAC feeds for a 2% drop using COPPER: 60 Amps @ 240 VAC (14,400 V-A), #4 is good for 150'. 50 Amps @ 240 VAC (12,000 V-A), #6 is good for 110'. on the next page (122) they show that a 1-1/4" conduit is suitable for 5 each #4 wires or 6 each #6 when using type TW. The book recommends checking the NEC (National Electric Code) when using wire types other than TW. I'd take the time and discuss this with your electrical inspector before pulling the wire. My preference is to use the #4 to minimize the voltage drop ... but I'm not buying the wire! If you want, there's a whole page (page 120) dedicated to calculating the voltage drop for a given distance and cable size ... armed with this information, you may well be able to convince the electrical inspector you do know what you're doing. You could also ask several electricians for a quote on the job, requiring a detailed BOM as part of the quote. You can also ask for the rate where you supply the labor, they provide the materials and do the final hookups. I haven't bothered with aluminum wire, though the calculations page does include the conversion factor required. I don't like aluminum wire; the cold-flow, corrosion and resultant I2R losses make it no fun. Yes, I know NoAlox, proper CU/AL fittings and PROPER torque on the fittings prevents most of the problems, but I just don't like the additional I2R losses as well. The Pocket Ref by Thomas J. Glover, 2nd Edition, 28th Printing - January 2001 (C) 1989-2000 by Thomas J. Glover ISBN 1-885071-00-0 HTH Rick P.S. You'll find that over the years the REC has remained pretty much the same ... lots of people with highly valued opinions (well, THEY value them), some snide remarks, and a few people willing and able to point facts your way. Take it all with a grain of salt, and verify everything, and you'll be fine. Funny though, I haven't checked the REC for about a year, and nothing has changed except some of the familiar names are gone. Back to the woodwork (literally AND figuratively). "Tom Veatch" wrote in message ... On 21 Oct 2004 11:33:53 -0700, (Elmar) wrote: Just built a WW shop about 50' (cable length) from my service panel. What gauge wire should I be using? 4-4-4-6? If so, should I pull them all individually? Or buy the premade 4-4-4-6? What size conduit? 1.25"? Shop is 16X20, may consider a/c eventually too. Aside from that, I have all the other goodies, Table Saw, dust collector, Compressors, I'll need a ton of lighting, etc... Would I ever really exceed 70 amps? Could I maybe get away with 6-6-6-6? Thoughts? Experience? Thanks! Elmar My shop is about the same size, etc. I have a 60 amp drop and about 150' of cable run. The wires are individual #6 AL. Lighting is 6 4' fluorescent fixtures w/4 40w bulbs in each. There is a small window unit air conditioner on 120v. Most of the stationary tools are wired for 240. Heat is LP gas. Maximum simultaneous load is lights plus A/C (on opposite phases) plus 3hp cabinet saw. No dust collector, yet. The lights do react to saw startup, but that is the only negative I've noticed. No breaker trips, so far. However, if I had it to do over, I'd go with a larger gauge (and use CU feeders instead of AL) for a couple of reasons. One, easier to increase capacity down the road, and, second, reduced line losses today. I'm pushing the limits with the existing installation. Tom Veatch Wichita, KS USA |
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#11
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My shop is about the same size, etc. I have a 60 amp drop and about 150' of
cable run. The wires are individual #6 AL. I am not surprised at all that you are having problems. #6al is only good for 50a at it's 75c rating. The base 60c rating is 40a. Add the 150' length and you can expect the line sag. At 60a you will be dropping 14.5 volts |
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#12
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In article ,
Elmar wrote: Just built a WW shop about 50' (cable length) from my service panel. What gauge wire should I be using? 4-4-4-6? If so, should I pull them all individually? Or buy the premade 4-4-4-6? What size conduit? 1.25"? Shop is 16X20, may consider a/c eventually too. Aside from that, I have all the other goodies, Table Saw, dust collector, Compressors, I'll need a ton of lighting, etc... Would I ever really exceed 70 amps? Could I maybe get away with 6-6-6-6? Thoughts? Experience? Comment: cost of materials is relatively insignificant, compared to the labor investment. 'over-engineering' is a cheap investment in future upgradability. Now, start budgeting the top-end (less may be sufficient, but consider 'worst case' situations) energy needs: lighting 5-8A @240 A/C 20-30A @240 Compressor 15-40A @240 Dust Collector 15-20A @240 Cabinet Saw 15-20A @240 Drill Press 5-10A @240 Jointer 10-15A @240 Planer 15-30A @240 Next, what all might be running at one time, _worst_case_. obviously the lights, plus the air conditioning. The compressor can be 'trusted' to kick in at 'the worst possible time'. Add in the dust collector, and the the biggest hog power tool. Wups! what if there are _two_ people in the shop. might have two tools running. That puts the theoretical total draw into the 100A range. which looks like 3 ga wire. Obviously, one can 'get by' with less -- maybe the tools you have are lower power; maybe you don't need to plan for two tools running; maybe the compressor is run only when you actually need to use it -- you're not keeping a pressure reserve on hand; etc., etc., ad nauseum. Going 'oversize' on conduit is *not* a 'bad thing', either. makes pulling the wires easier. And gives additional flexibility down the road. There is something to be said for having the lighting on a _completely_ different run from the main panel -- hit (or overload) the main breaker in the sub-panel, and all the 'sharp stuff' powers down, *but* you can still see. Also provides a simple way to 'lock out' the tools, without clobbering the lighting. |
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#13
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#14
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Silvan wrote:
Then go one size bigger. I'd say 24" conduit sounds about comfortable enough. Funny that. There's a plumbing/electrical supply place across the street where my nice wooded vacant lot used to be, and they have a pallet of 5" conduit sitting out there. That would be big enough for one wire, probably. -- Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621 http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/ http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/ |
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#15
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Elmar said:
That's why I asked for people's EXPERIENCE.... No offense, but I am not spending a grand for some yahoo to do the same job I can do for $200. I am VERY familiar with running electricity and how to accomplish the job. I was looking for wire size recommendations. My shop is located in the garage, less than 50' from the main panel. I installed a 6 slot sub-panel in the garage and used 4-4-4-6 copper. I run 60 amp breakers in the main panel. The sub-panel feeds a 120v 15A lighting circuit, a 120v GFCI protected 20A run (with motor delay breaker), and a 20A 240 run. I could have used larger mains, but don't need the capacity. If I add a welder in the future, it is possible to easily upgrade. The 120v line uses 10G wire to reduce voltage drop that is problematic with 120v equipment. There is an existing lighting circuit in case the main trips (although unlikely). Wiring in the garage is surface mounted and contained in conduit. I used large 10G THWN wire for the 120v lines. I used 12G THWN for the 240 lines. I used 14g for the 15A fluorescent lighting lines. I wouldn't use aluminum wiring - voltage drop and connection issues. The slight cost involved in over-engineering your electricals will be paid for in future flexibility. You *must* perform an electrical consumption worksheet to discover how much extra capacity is available from your existing main service. The inspector will do this - and you will not pass if you stuff an 80 amp sub-panel feed in a 3BR house with a 100AMP main panel. You *must* perform a conductor quantity, electrical box and conduit volume calculation to adhere to code. NEC 2002 - 314.16 Here is a link to a great electrical forum, run by an Electrical Inspector in Indiana: http://www.selfhelpandmore.com/homewiringusa/index.htm FWIW, Greg G. |
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#16
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"Robert Bonomi" wrote in message ervers.com... Next, what all might be running at one time, _worst_case_. obviously the lights, plus the air conditioning. The compressor can be 'trusted' to kick in at 'the worst possible time'. Add in the dust collector, and the the biggest hog power tool. Wups! what if there are _two_ people in the shop. might have two tools running. That puts the theoretical total draw into the 100A range. which looks like 3 ga wire. Robert, I think your technical description is accurate. However, there is one very important key point to remember. The current ratings you use are full load amps. A table saw cutting 3/4" redwood doesn't draw anywhere near the current when cutting 2" hard maple. A 2hp and 5 hp motor will draw approximately the same current when subjected to the same loads. An air compressor does not draw full load when it first kicks in (excluding initial startup inrush). The current climbs as the pressure in the tank approaches maximum. A drill press is rarely used anywhere near full load, unless swinging a large forstner in hard wood. The rather dim scenario you painted is highly unlikely to occur, in my opinion. But it does point out the need to consider useage patterns and simultaneous loads. Actually this works in favor of most users. Otherwise, they would be tripping circuit breakers constantly. Bob |
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#17
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An air
compressor does not draw full load when it first kicks in (excluding initial startup inrush). The current climbs as the pressure in the tank approaches I put a Fluke clamp on to my compressor and the reality is it pulls the most from about a fourth to half way through bringing up the tank pressure. This has to do with the bite of air it gets to compress, When it is close to the max it is throttled and doesn't take in much air. That is similar to a vacuum cleaner with a plugged hose. It actually runs faster at lower current because there is less load. |
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#18
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"Greg" wrote in message ... An air compressor does not draw full load when it first kicks in (excluding initial startup inrush). The current climbs as the pressure in the tank approaches I put a Fluke clamp on to my compressor and the reality is it pulls the most from about a fourth to half way through bringing up the tank pressure. This has to do with the bite of air it gets to compress, When it is close to the max it is throttled and doesn't take in much air. That is similar to a vacuum cleaner with a plugged hose. It actually runs faster at lower current because there is less load. Ah, a man with actual facts. I do not argue with a man that has a Fluke clamp on. Interesting! Thanks for the tune up in my linear facts. I forget that compressors are non-linear beasts. Bob |
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#19
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I do not argue with a man that has a Fluke
clamp on. This is a great toy for about the price of dinner and a movie. Get a short heavy duty extension cord, the type with the "zip cord look" so you can separate out the leads and split one out for the clamp. You can then get a good eye opener about exactly what your tools really draw. When I first got mine I went around debunking things like the "1800 watt" hair dryer and "6 HP" compressors. I don't know how they come up with these numbers. |
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#20
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Sorry but you are wrong with respect to current/horsepower going DOWN at
high pressure. most air compressors are positive displacement (piston/diaphragm type) machines for which power goes up as discharge pressure goes up. There is rule of thumb in the Hydraulic Institute Standard that give the formula. Vacuum cleaners are on the other hand are centrifugal compressors where at free flow (open suction and discharge fully open) power consumption is the highest. -- Larry "Greg" wrote in message ... An air compressor does not draw full load when it first kicks in (excluding initial startup inrush). The current climbs as the pressure in the tank approaches I put a Fluke clamp on to my compressor and the reality is it pulls the most from about a fourth to half way through bringing up the tank pressure. This has to do with the bite of air it gets to compress, When it is close to the max it is throttled and doesn't take in much air. That is similar to a vacuum cleaner with a plugged hose. It actually runs faster at lower current because there is less load. |
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#21
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Sorry but you are wrong with respect to current/horsepower going DOWN at
high pressure. I only know what the meter says. There may be some kind of unloader in there but I really think it is just that it can't take in any more air. This is the C/H diaphram oilless compressor with a 6.25 sticker and a 1HP motor. In the middle of the range it actually draws more than the labelled FLA, then tapers off. That was the day I bought it. If you have the January archives of this NG, I posted the actual curve |
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#23
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In article . net,
Bob wrote: "Robert Bonomi" wrote in message servers.com... Next, what all might be running at one time, _worst_case_. obviously the lights, plus the air conditioning. The compressor can be 'trusted' to kick in at 'the worst possible time'. Add in the dust collector, and the the biggest hog power tool. Wups! what if there are _two_ people in the shop. might have two tools running. That puts the theoretical total draw into the 100A range. which looks like 3 ga wire. Robert, I think your technical description is accurate. However, there is one very important key point to remember. The current ratings you use are full load amps. A table saw cutting 3/4" redwood doesn't draw anywhere near the current when cutting 2" hard maple. A 2hp and 5 hp motor will draw approximately the same current when subjected to the same loads. An air compressor does not draw full load when it first kicks in (excluding initial startup inrush). The current climbs as the pressure in the tank approaches maximum. A drill press is rarely used anywhere near full load, unless swinging a large forstner in hard wood. The rather dim scenario you painted is highly unlikely to occur, in my opinion. But it does point out the need to consider useage patterns and simultaneous loads. Actually this works in favor of most users. Otherwise, they would be tripping circuit breakers constantly. If it is a 'dim' scenario, you didn't budget enough for lighting! grin Note, I was expressly talking about 'worst case' situations -- any rational engineering *does* _design_ to the worst-case scenario specifications. Yes, you can 'get away' with 'less' in many situations, but, eventually, it *WILL* 'bite' you, probably "at the worst possible time, in the worst possible way". There is a reason, borne of painful experience, that O'Brien's Law ("Murphy was an optimist!") exists. The _last_ thing you want is the *feeder* to a building with sharp, rapidly spinning metal thingies to shut down. You lose all the lights -- and thus can't see _where_ those sharp thingies are -- *and* they're still spinning, at least until they coast to a stop. This is a significant argument in favor of a _separately_ protected, separate feeder for the lighting circuits. And for splitting the lighting across (at least) two circuits, as well. ("Yes, I _do_ have far more experience in dealing with Messrs Murphy and O'Brien than I really care to; why do you ask?" As for the rest, lighting is a 'static' load; an air-conditioner draws quite close to 'rated' amps while the compressor is running; the air-compressor -- kicking in to 'top off' the tank -- is going to draw around 80% of rated load; a dust collector runs 'normally' at close to rated load, as well. your comment about a 2hp motor, and a 5hp one drawing similar current under similar loading; that claim _is_ true, but only as far as it goes -- static load, under static conditions. The 5hp motor will draw *considerably* more at start-up; also at other times when the motor undergoes a significant increase in load, over the short term. One final comment: For power feeder/distribution, the 'cost' associated with "over-engineering" the implementation to 'worst case' specifications is minor. Materials cost is usually swamped by labor expense. Also, the 'down side risk' of finding out _after_the_fact_ that the newly done work is 'inadequate' and requires replacement, puts the minor additional cost of the 'do it right the first time' approach in the realm of "*really* cheap insurance". |
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#24
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