I lurk here, and post now and then. I've learned a lot, but I have a
question that I haven't seen answered.

I still do my plans with a T Square and Triangles. I think I would like
to learn SketchUp. I have watched their Getting Started videos and it
seems pretty simple - at least to do simple things. Is it? What is the
learning curve like? Any thoughts or suggestions will be appreciated.
--
Jerry O.

Sketchup is nolonger truly free. They pay lip service to it, but if you
charge 1¢ for one bit of work derived from it in anyway then you are
considered a commercial user according to the TOS. Google nolonger runs
Sketchup as a collaborative build platform. They sold it out.

If you are just doing simple 2D work just about any CAD program will get you
by. Even CorelCraw can be made to perform like a real CAD program if you
tweak the settings.

FreeCAD has a following for 3D work, but the last time I played with it
there were still a lot of bugs. I've been told its better now. I don't
recall that it was built for 2D work.

For cash I like ViaCad. I use the 2d/3d Pro version that costs about $299
if I recall. There are simpler versions, and Shark is their higher end
package. Its a pretty easy to learn interface for me. I like the tools
and tool bar flyout intereface. It seems to work in 3D space the same way I
think and visualize. 2D is pretty easy too. I use both.

Fusion360 is pretty powerful for 3D work. Its free for hobbyists, startups,
and small business grossing less than a $100K. I use it occasionally for
the powerful HSM CAM capabilities, but I tend to fall back on ViaCad for CAD
work.

There is a lot more out there, but those are the ones I am most familiar
with.

On 8/30/2017 3:28 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
Sketchup is nolonger truly free.Â* They pay lip service to it, but if you
charge 1¢ for one bit of work derived from it in anyway then you are
considered a commercial user according to the TOS.Â* Google nolonger runs
Sketchup as a collaborative build platform.Â* They sold it out.

Yes it is truly free, it is called Sketchup Make. Google sold Sketchup
and all of its versions several years ago Trimble. And there is/has at
least an annual update, 4~5. And several years before that Google
bought Sketchup from another company.

If you have seen any of my work you should understand the Skecthup Make
is ideal for all woodworkers. It is the go to program for every
woodworking magazine that I know of. I have never seen as much
documentation and videos for woodworkers with any other program as I
have for Sketchup. I have probably used 15~20 different cad programs
and update versions of cad programs in the past 31 years. For
woodworking projects past making a stick, Sketchup is what you probably
want. YMMV

Right on the download page without even having to open the TOS.

"The easy, fun, and free way to draw in 3D.
SketchUp Make is not licensed for commercial work. "

I read the TOS sometime ago. Unless they have changed it you can't use it
for any commercial work or for work that has commercial derivatives. Its
only free for strictly personal use. Design a cabinet and sell the cabinet
and its a violation of the TOS.

Here is from the TOS directly:

"2.2.1. SketchUp Make
SketchUp Make Software is licensed only for non-commercial use for your
internal business purposes. Non-commercial use means that you may not sell,
rent, or lease the output of the Software. Any other use requires the
purchase of a SketchUp Pro license. For example, if you are a for-profit
organization of any kind, or an employee of a for-profit organization using
the Software in that capacity, you are engaged in commercial activity;
therefore, in order to use the Software, you must purchase a SketchUp Pro
license. Government agencies are considered to be commercial users and must
purchase a SketchUp Pro license."

There are some very tiny little grey areas maybe, but ...

I first used Sketchup back when users were still working on development in
coordination with Google project coordinators.

"Bob La Londe" wrote:

Here is from the TOS directly:

"2.2.1. SketchUp Make
SketchUp Make Software is licensed only for non-commercial use for your
internal business purposes.

"internal business" use is OK

Non-commercial use means that you may not sell,
rent, or lease the output of the Software.

The "output of the Software" is a .skp file, so if you do not "sell,
rent, or lease" your unique design efforts (your saved *.skp file)
you are compliant with Trimble's license.

Any other use requires the
purchase of a SketchUp Pro license. For example, if you are a for-profit
organization of any kind, or an employee of a for-profit organization using
the Software in that capacity, you are engaged in commercial activity;
therefore, in order to use the Software, you must purchase a SketchUp Pro
license. Government agencies are considered to be commercial users and must
purchase a SketchUp Pro license."

On 8/30/2017 2:41 PM, Jerry Osage wrote:
I lurk here, and post now and then. I've learned a lot, but I have a
question that I haven't seen answered.

I still do my plans with a T Square and Triangles. I think I would like
to learn SketchUp. I have watched their Getting Started videos and it
seems pretty simple - at least to do simple things. Is it? What is the
learning curve like? Any thoughts or suggestions will be appreciated.


I think the last time that I used a t square and triangles was in the
70's, I had a formal education in mechanical drafting and architectural
drafting.

Have you had any drafting courses? Do you know the tricks and shortcuts
to drawing manually? It will greatly help when moving on to CAD.

Anyway I began using CAD's in 1986 and up until about 8~9 years ago used
AutoCAD LT. Then I switched to Sketchup. I hope I never have to change
again. This program is is the bench mark now with woodworkers.

I am going to say that one of the most important things to learn
IMMEDIATELY is to make separate parts of a project into a component.
Highlight all parts of the object, right click, and select Make Component.

You will absolutely not progress beyond baby steps until you learn to do
this and it is very simple.

WHY?

All lines of a part or object will stick, stretch, and contort if you
try to move or modify them. Until you make all lines/pieces of an
object into a component you will not be able to add other attaching
lines/parts to the drawing with out creating havoc.

Think of taking a trip and you come to a fork in the road. One fork
goes to Components, the other fork goes nowhere.
If you take the fork to nowhere you will travel endlessly in the wrong
direction. At some point you will realize that you should have taken
the Component fork. You cannot take a short cut to get out of this
mess, you will have to go back to the fork in the road to to in the
correct, Component direction.

Look for videos that cover COMPONENTS. Don't go on until you understand
the importance of learning to use components.

Again making parts into components is STUPID SIMPLE. There is no excuse
to not learn to do this IMMEDIATELY. Otherwise yo might as well be
trying to draw blind folded.

Do you get my drift? LOL

In all honesty not using components makes using Sketch up extremely
difficult for EVERYBODY.

Past that Sketchup is pretty darn simple to learn, especially if you
have any CAD experience at all.

I will be happy to answer any questions you have, AFTER you have learned
how to makes components.

On Wed, 30 Aug 2017 15:46:59 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 8/30/2017 2:41 PM, Jerry Osage wrote:
I lurk here, and post now and then. I've learned a lot, but I have a
question that I haven't seen answered.

I still do my plans with a T Square and Triangles. I think I would like
to learn SketchUp. I have watched their Getting Started videos and it
seems pretty simple - at least to do simple things. Is it? What is the
learning curve like? Any thoughts or suggestions will be appreciated.


I think the last time that I used a t square and triangles was in the
70's, I had a formal education in mechanical drafting and architectural
drafting.

Have you had any drafting courses? Do you know the tricks and shortcuts
to drawing manually? It will greatly help when moving on to CAD.

Just a basic course in HS. Self taught after that.

Anyway I began using CAD's in 1986 and up until about 8~9 years ago used
AutoCAD LT. Then I switched to Sketchup. I hope I never have to change
again. This program is is the bench mark now with woodworkers.

I can see that, some of the things I have seen in SketchUp is amazing.
It is just that I can whip up a set of usable plans on my drafting table
and be in the shop working while I would still be futzing around with
ShetchUp. Since I have no CAD training experience, ShetchUp is harder
that it looks - at least to me.

I am going to say that one of the most important things to learn
IMMEDIATELY is to make separate parts of a project into a component.
Highlight all parts of the object, right click, and select Make Component.

Yes, after learning to do that, and make groups, things have gotten
easier.

You will absolutely not progress beyond baby steps until you learn to do
this and it is very simple.

WHY?

All lines of a part or object will stick, stretch, and contort if you
try to move or modify them. Until you make all lines/pieces of an
object into a component you will not be able to add other attaching
lines/parts to the drawing with out creating havoc.

Think of taking a trip and you come to a fork in the road. One fork
goes to Components, the other fork goes nowhere.
If you take the fork to nowhere you will travel endlessly in the wrong
direction. At some point you will realize that you should have taken
the Component fork. You cannot take a short cut to get out of this
mess, you will have to go back to the fork in the road to to in the
correct, Component direction.

Look for videos that cover COMPONENTS. Don't go on until you understand
the importance of learning to use components.

Again making parts into components is STUPID SIMPLE. There is no excuse
to not learn to do this IMMEDIATELY. Otherwise yo might as well be
trying to draw blind folded.

Do you get my drift? LOL

In all honesty not using components makes using Sketch up extremely
difficult for EVERYBODY.

Past that Sketchup is pretty darn simple to learn, especially if you
have any CAD experience at all.

That seems to be the rub - I have no CAD experience - except that
self-taught it was Hard to learn and I never progressed very far...

I guess I'm just impatient - and lack experience with using CAD. And
things like - should these components be made into a group and then
selecting the right thing if I want to modify it. There is no substitute
for experience, and I don't have much with SketchUp - yet.

I will be happy to answer any questions you have, AFTER you have learned
how to makes components.

That may be a mistake... Thanks for all the input.
--
Jerry O.

On 8/31/2017 7:16 PM, Jerry Osage wrote:
On Wed, 30 Aug 2017 15:46:59 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 8/30/2017 2:41 PM, Jerry Osage wrote:
I lurk here, and post now and then. I've learned a lot, but I have a
question that I haven't seen answered.

I still do my plans with a T Square and Triangles. I think I would like
to learn SketchUp. I have watched their Getting Started videos and it
seems pretty simple - at least to do simple things. Is it? What is the
learning curve like? Any thoughts or suggestions will be appreciated.


I think the last time that I used a t square and triangles was in the
70's, I had a formal education in mechanical drafting and architectural
drafting.

Have you had any drafting courses? Do you know the tricks and shortcuts
to drawing manually? It will greatly help when moving on to CAD.

Just a basic course in HS. Self taught after that.

Good enough, you should understand or remember the basics.




Anyway I began using CAD's in 1986 and up until about 8~9 years ago used
AutoCAD LT. Then I switched to Sketchup. I hope I never have to change
again. This program is is the bench mark now with woodworkers.

I can see that, some of the things I have seen in SketchUp is amazing.
It is just that I can whip up a set of usable plans on my drafting table
and be in the shop working while I would still be futzing around with
ShetchUp. Since I have no CAD training experience, ShetchUp is harder
that it looks - at least to me.

Certainly it is but the tutorials are very informative.
I will add this . When drawing in 2D you typically show the front, top
and side view of an object. Using triangles and a T-square you can put
our lay out lines to extend to the top and side views from the front
view. Unfortunately with paper and pencil you can make a mistake and if
you are not good at visualizing yo may leave out details.

When you draw in 3D in Sketchup you can see mistakes instantly by simply
rotating the object/part. If it does not look right it probably is not
right. It is easy to determine if the drawing is doable.










I am going to say that one of the most important things to learn
IMMEDIATELY is to make separate parts of a project into a component.
Highlight all parts of the object, right click, and select Make Component.

Yes, after learning to do that, and make groups, things have gotten
easier.

Good to know that you have learned that and realize the importance. So
many new to Sketchup, especially including myself, learn the hard way.
I have a whole model of my home with no components. I make it work,
after I finished the whole model of my home is a single component. For
my furniture pieces, that I have designed/drawn for my home, I have
inserted the pieces into the model home drawing to see how it will look
when built and completed.



You will absolutely not progress beyond baby steps until you learn to do
this and it is very simple.

WHY?

All lines of a part or object will stick, stretch, and contort if you
try to move or modify them. Until you make all lines/pieces of an
object into a component you will not be able to add other attaching
lines/parts to the drawing with out creating havoc.

Think of taking a trip and you come to a fork in the road. One fork
goes to Components, the other fork goes nowhere.
If you take the fork to nowhere you will travel endlessly in the wrong
direction. At some point you will realize that you should have taken
the Component fork. You cannot take a short cut to get out of this
mess, you will have to go back to the fork in the road to to in the
correct, Component direction.

Look for videos that cover COMPONENTS. Don't go on until you understand
the importance of learning to use components.

Again making parts into components is STUPID SIMPLE. There is no excuse
to not learn to do this IMMEDIATELY. Otherwise yo might as well be
trying to draw blind folded.

Do you get my drift? LOL

In all honesty not using components makes using Sketch up extremely
difficult for EVERYBODY.

Past that Sketchup is pretty darn simple to learn, especially if you
have any CAD experience at all.

That seems to be the rub - I have no CAD experience - except that
self-taught it was Hard to learn and I never progressed very far...

Keep after it and practice practice practice. Pick something simple you
want to draw and review videos to accomplish what you want to do.



I guess I'm just impatient - and lack experience with using CAD. And
things like - should these components be made into a group and then
selecting the right thing if I want to modify it. There is no substitute
for experience, and I don't have much with SketchUp - yet.

Be patient. For me it was, one day it clicked.

Lets say you want to draw a cabinet door. 2 rails, 2 stiles, and a
center panel. Draw the top rail and make it into a component. Draw a
stile and make it into a component. You have half the border of the
door drawn. You can draw mirror images of both components again OR you
can copy the stile and the rail component and /flip them into the
correct orientation. Drag the parts together like you are putting them
together in your shop. Draw and add your center component. right click
the component and select flip, that can be done on any of the 3 axis,
you end up with an end for end flip, a top to bottom flip, or a front to
back flip. This takes a little time to learn which flip is necessary.

Now if you select all assembled components of the door you can right
click and select make into a group. When you do this you can move the
whole door assembly as a unit. Think of grouping components as gluing
the pieces together in the shop.

The beauty to copying a component vs. drawing again is that if you copy
a component one or a hundred times you can edit any one of the
components and all copies of the component will reflect the
edit/changes. If you want to change only component, say to have a hole
for a knob of the door stile, right click and select make unique and
then edit.

You will learn which method of editing is best for you. Remember you
can make a copy of a deeply placed component and place the copy in an
easy to view and edit location somewhere else on the drawing. After
editing that copy, delete the copy and the original deeply hidden part
will reflect the changes.

To edit, select the component and tipple click. You will see an edit
box form around the component and all copies will grey out. Then do
your editing. Or select the component and right click and select edit.

You can edit a component that is inside a group but it can get
complicated. To ungroup, select the group, right click and select
explode. This will work on a component also so be careful as you may
turn a component into a bunch of lines that are difficult to edit or move.






I will be happy to answer any questions you have, AFTER you have learned
how to makes components.

That may be a mistake... Thanks for all the input.


Not a problem.

"Leon" wrote in message
...

On 8/30/2017 2:41 PM, Jerry Osage wrote:
I lurk here, and post now and then. I've learned a lot, but I have a
question that I haven't seen answered.

I still do my plans with a T Square and Triangles. I think I would like
to learn SketchUp. I have watched their Getting Started videos and it
seems pretty simple - at least to do simple things. Is it? What is the
learning curve like? Any thoughts or suggestions will be appreciated.


I think the last time that I used a t square and triangles was in the
70's, I had a formal education in mechanical drafting and architectural
drafting.

************

In my one (1) mechanical drawing class I ever took in my life I used
triangles and squares all the time in 1980/1981. In 1993-1996 I did a few
layouts for fire alarm systems on the drafting table. In 1996 I started to
computerize everything, and I finally went to electronic books in 1997.

I gave away my drafting table last year, but I still have all my tools in a
desk drawer.

Now, I do use angles and squares in the shop all the time for laying out
quick and dirty parts, and I even still scribe lines on metal parts from
time to time. Sometimes the old ways are still the fastest way to get the
job done.

Bob La Londe wrote:


"Leon" wrote in message
...

On 8/30/2017 2:41 PM, Jerry Osage wrote:
I lurk here, and post now and then. I've learned a lot, but I have a
question that I haven't seen answered.

I still do my plans with a T Square and Triangles. I think I would like
to learn SketchUp. I have watched their Getting Started videos and it
seems pretty simple - at least to do simple things. Is it? What is the
learning curve like? Any thoughts or suggestions will be appreciated.


I think the last time that I used a t square and triangles was in the
70's, I had a formal education in mechanical drafting and architectural
drafting.

************

In my one (1) mechanical drawing class I ever took in my life I used
triangles and squares all the time in 1980/1981. In 1993-1996 I did a
few layouts for fire alarm systems on the drafting table. In 1996 I
started to computerize everything, and I finally went to electronic
books in 1997.

I gave away my drafting table last year, but I still have all my tools
in a desk drawer.


I have my dad's tools right next to me in my closet. Rulers, with all
sort of units, compassi, and even a slide rule (on which he taught me to
do multiplication). Priceless though these items may be, I am willing
to entertain offers too good to refuse! ; )

On 2017-08-30, Jerry Osage Jerry wrote:

I still do my plans with a T Square and Triangles.

I learned drafting on a hard wooden stool with a T square and
triangles. also. Much later, I was trained on AutoCad. ACad has
every stinkin' whistle and bell imaginable, which is why it's No. 1
and costs yer first born to purchase a single seat.

Any thoughts or suggestions will be appreciated.

I didn't like SketchUp. Might be intuitive to those who are unused
to a "3D modeling program", which AutoCad is NOT and SketchUp IS!
But, I was lost. Plus, SketchUp never offered a version for Linux
(which I prefer).

I'm retired, now, so have no need for a CAD program. I was looking at
LibreCAD, but it does not seem to have matured much in the last 2-3
yrs. I think my pro carpenter buddy uses AutoCAD LT (light) which
costs waaaay less than the real deal. Still, it's more like a T-sqr 'n
triangles than SketchUp.

nb

Jerry Osage wrote in :

I lurk here, and post now and then. I've learned a lot, but I have a
question that I haven't seen answered.

I still do my plans with a T Square and Triangles. I think I would like
to learn SketchUp. I have watched their Getting Started videos and it
seems pretty simple - at least to do simple things. Is it? What is the
learning curve like? Any thoughts or suggestions will be appreciated.

I'd suggest downloading it an playing with it. Leon explained about
components, I'll add understanding the push-pull tool. Those two
concepts will be very useful as you learn how to use it.

Try this simple thing: A hollow box with open side. Draw a square, then
draw a square inside it. Use the push pull tool to pull the outer face
to the desired height. (You can select the tool then enter the value.)
Now use the push-pull tool to pull the inner face to the desired depth.
Viola, a hollow box with open side!

Now, let's make the box useful for woodworking: Draw the top view of the
box like you would a standard drawing. As you complete each part of the
box, select it and choose "Make component." and make sure "replace
selection with component" is checked. Once done, double click the
component to edit it and use the push pull tool as above.

If you want the sides of the box to sit on the bottom face, that takes a
little more effort but I think I can leave that exercise to the reader.

Puckdropper
--
http://www.puckdroppersplace.us/rec.woodworking
A mini archive of some of rec.woodworking's best and worst!

"Puckdropper" puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote in message
eb.com...

Try this simple thing: A hollow box with open side. Draw a square, then
draw a square inside it. Use the push pull tool to pull the outer face
to the desired height. (You can select the tool then enter the value.)
Now use the push-pull tool to pull the inner face to the desired depth.

Two comments for the OP.

1. You learn Sketchup by using it. I had it for a couple of years, played
a bit but nothing clicked. Then I watched the videos, played some more and
voila...CLICK. I seriously doubt any program comes even close to being as
useful for woodworkers (or any other "makers"), just mind Leon's admonition
about components.

2. Entering dimensions can be very useful but it can also be confusing. As
you draw, the dimension of what you are drawing appears in the little box at
the lower right; if you want to specify a dimension, just stop drawing and
type it. Don't try to click on the box and type, just type.

On Thu, 31 Aug 2017 07:34:23 -0400, "dadiOH" wrote:


"Puckdropper" puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote in message
web.com...

Try this simple thing: A hollow box with open side. Draw a square, then
draw a square inside it. Use the push pull tool to pull the outer face
to the desired height. (You can select the tool then enter the value.)
Now use the push-pull tool to pull the inner face to the desired depth.

Two comments for the OP.

1. You learn Sketchup by using it. I had it for a couple of years, played
a bit but nothing clicked. Then I watched the videos, played some more and
voila...CLICK. I seriously doubt any program comes even close to being as
useful for woodworkers (or any other "makers"), just mind Leon's admonition
about components.

2. Entering dimensions can be very useful but it can also be confusing. As
you draw, the dimension of what you are drawing appears in the little box at
the lower right; if you want to specify a dimension, just stop drawing and
type it. Don't try to click on the box and type, just type.

And to me that's counter-intuitive, but I figured it out. Well, actually
the first tutorial told me. But I played around some before getting into
the tutorials.

I guess I just need to devote more time to using it. I think I have a
basic understanding of the basic tools -- however, I'm still waiting for
that Click to happen.

What started this is that I made a quality, very well insulated, and
heated Dog House. I have been adopted by three stray hound pups and it
gets down into the low teens and sometimes single digits here.

I did a few rough sketches, jotted down the dimensions, made a materials
list, bought everything and made the house.

Then.... I thought, What the Hell, I'll draw it up in SketchUp - it
should be an easy project - I was wrong. I've spent more time than the
whole project took - and still don't have it right in SketchUp. That
has made me determined to learn it well enough that it is fun and not a
chore. At least that is the plan...

Thanks everyone for your input.
--
Jerry O.

Jerry Osage wrote:
On Thu, 31 Aug 2017 07:34:23 -0400, "dadiOH" wrote:

"Puckdropper" puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote in message
eb.com...

Try this simple thing: A hollow box with open side. Draw a square, then
draw a square inside it. Use the push pull tool to pull the outer face
to the desired height. (You can select the tool then enter the value.)
Now use the push-pull tool to pull the inner face to the desired depth.
Two comments for the OP.

1. You learn Sketchup by using it. I had it for a couple of years, played
a bit but nothing clicked. Then I watched the videos, played some more and
voila...CLICK. I seriously doubt any program comes even close to being as
useful for woodworkers (or any other "makers"), just mind Leon's admonition
about components.

2. Entering dimensions can be very useful but it can also be confusing. As
you draw, the dimension of what you are drawing appears in the little box at
the lower right; if you want to specify a dimension, just stop drawing and
type it. Don't try to click on the box and type, just type.

And to me that's counter-intuitive, but I figured it out. Well, actually
the first tutorial told me. But I played around some before getting into
the tutorials.

I guess I just need to devote more time to using it. I think I have a
basic understanding of the basic tools -- however, I'm still waiting for
that Click to happen.

What started this is that I made a quality, very well insulated, and
heated Dog House. I have been adopted by three stray hound pups and it
gets down into the low teens and sometimes single digits here.

I did a few rough sketches, jotted down the dimensions, made a materials
list, bought everything and made the house.

Then.... I thought, What the Hell, I'll draw it up in SketchUp - it
should be an easy project - I was wrong. I've spent more time than the
whole project took - and still don't have it right in SketchUp. That
has made me determined to learn it well enough that it is fun and not a
chore. At least that is the plan...

Thanks everyone for your input.

After you've played with the program a bit, I think it is easier to
learn from a book. Important details go by to fast (for me) in videos.
That said, I got to feeling pretty good about my abilities with SU, but
I know if I tried it right now I would flounder, because I didn't keep
using it. That said, it is more intuitive than the "vi" editor, and more
fun too.

On Fri, 1 Sep 2017 00:52:13 -0400, Bill
wrote:

Jerry Osage wrote:
On Thu, 31 Aug 2017 07:34:23 -0400, "dadiOH" wrote:

"Puckdropper" puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote in message
eb.com...

Try this simple thing: A hollow box with open side. Draw a square, then
draw a square inside it. Use the push pull tool to pull the outer face
to the desired height. (You can select the tool then enter the value.)
Now use the push-pull tool to pull the inner face to the desired depth.
Two comments for the OP.

1. You learn Sketchup by using it. I had it for a couple of years, played
a bit but nothing clicked. Then I watched the videos, played some more and
voila...CLICK. I seriously doubt any program comes even close to being as
useful for woodworkers (or any other "makers"), just mind Leon's admonition
about components.

2. Entering dimensions can be very useful but it can also be confusing. As
you draw, the dimension of what you are drawing appears in the little box at
the lower right; if you want to specify a dimension, just stop drawing and
type it. Don't try to click on the box and type, just type.

And to me that's counter-intuitive, but I figured it out. Well, actually
the first tutorial told me. But I played around some before getting into
the tutorials.

I guess I just need to devote more time to using it. I think I have a
basic understanding of the basic tools -- however, I'm still waiting for
that Click to happen.

What started this is that I made a quality, very well insulated, and
heated Dog House. I have been adopted by three stray hound pups and it
gets down into the low teens and sometimes single digits here.

I did a few rough sketches, jotted down the dimensions, made a materials
list, bought everything and made the house.

Then.... I thought, What the Hell, I'll draw it up in SketchUp - it
should be an easy project - I was wrong. I've spent more time than the
whole project took - and still don't have it right in SketchUp. That
has made me determined to learn it well enough that it is fun and not a
chore. At least that is the plan...

Thanks everyone for your input.

After you've played with the program a bit, I think it is easier to
learn from a book. Important details go by to fast (for me) in videos.
That said, I got to feeling pretty good about my abilities with SU, but
I know if I tried it right now I would flounder, because I didn't keep
using it. That said, it is more intuitive than the "vi" editor, and more
fun too.

I've been using it for several hours today. And I forgot several times
about making a component. And as Leon mentioned - that can be a real
pain, especially since I didn't catch my mistake until it was much too
late.

I have also learned to "save" often. That way when things fall apart -
actually, all stuck together - I can do a "Restore" and go from there.

It's been real and it's been fun, but it hasn't been real fun yet.
--
Jerry O.

On Wed, 30 Aug 2017 14:41:48 -0500, Jerry Osage wrote:

I lurk here, and post now and then. I've learned a lot, but I have a
question that I haven't seen answered.

I still do my plans with a T Square and Triangles. I think I would like
to learn SketchUp. I have watched their Getting Started videos and it
seems pretty simple - at least to do simple things. Is it? What is the
learning curve like? Any thoughts or suggestions will be appreciated.

It's easy, once you get your head straight. Don't think of it as a
CAD system. Just build shapes. Learning the basics takes maybe a
half hour. The rest can be picked up as you need it.

Jerry wrote:

I still do my plans with a T Square and Triangles. I think I would like
to learn SketchUp. I have watched their Getting Started videos and it
seems pretty simple - at least to do simple things. Is it? What is the
learning curve like? Any thoughts or suggestions will be appreciated.

I'd suggest taking a look at Ashlar Graphite. It's a 3d wireframe system
that originated on the Macintosh. I started using it sometime in the '90s
and have never found anything nearly as good.

http://www.ashlar.com/shop/2d-3d-cad-graphite.html

It's not cheap, but a temporary license is about $40 for a month.
They seem to have promotions and "special offers", it's certainly
worth inquiring about them, that's how I got it originally.

I'd be happy to answer questions, I have no affiliation apart from
being a satisfied customer.


bob prohaska

On 8/30/2017 3:41 PM, Jerry Osage wrote:
I lurk here, and post now and then. I've learned a lot, but I have a
question that I haven't seen answered.

I still do my plans with a T Square and Triangles. I think I would like
to learn SketchUp. I have watched their Getting Started videos and it
seems pretty simple - at least to do simple things. Is it? What is the
learning curve like? Any thoughts or suggestions will be appreciated.


I started to learn to use it, it's easy to get started, somewhat more
complicated to do more complicated things.

I wish I could use it, but I don't use it often enough to retain the
knowledge. If you use it regularly it is clearly the way to go. If you
use it sporadically you may find yourself learning it over and over.

--
Jeff

On 8/31/2017 10:17 PM, woodchucker wrote:

I started to learn to use it, it's easy to get started, somewhat more
complicated to do more complicated things.

I found it just the opposite, hard to get started, (extremely not
intuitive) but once you get the basics the rest is easy.

I wish I could use it, but I don't use it often enough to retain the
knowledge. If you use it regularly it is clearly the way to go. If you
use it sporadically you may find yourself learning it over and over.

This is really true, and truer the older you get. I re-learned what I
knew quite a few times because I didn't use it for long periods, but, it
does get easier each time. If you use it regularly, like anything, it
will become easier. Sketchup is one app you need to know quite a few
things before you can do anything at all. The biggest detriment to
learning it is trying to take learning shortcuts. My recommendation to
learning it is give it up, go to Youtube and use the tutorials to learn
the basics. There a a myriad of good ones.

One thing I want to add however is the versions. I *think* version 7
something was the last Google version before they sold it off. I was
always hesitant to upgrade Sketchup as my too many years of experience
with shareware/freeware was that eventually, an upgrade would screw you.
I used version 7 something for a long time, and for absolutely no good
reason (version 7 something worked perfectly fine) I stupidly upgraded
to Version 8. Well, that works about exactly as version 7 did, far as I
can tell, but, it has an annoying start-up splash screen that displays
each time you start it. Not a big deal, just an annoyance. When you
access any old sketchup file with a newer version of SU, then you can
never again access that file with the older version.

I know I will never, ever upgrade SU again if I can help it, and if I
had it to do over again, I would have stuck with GoogleSketchUpWEN7.exe.
My recommendation is look for that version (DAGS) and use that one. I
suspect that the new commercial owners will be less willing to let the
world use their product for free, and each future up grade will be
pushing freeloading customers towards the commercial product. I could
of course be wrong, but really don't see any need for everyday
woodworker to go beyond version 7, which should meet most all
woodworkers needs.

--
Jack
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.
http://jbstein.com

On 9/1/2017 10:10 AM, Jack wrote:
On 8/31/2017 10:17 PM, woodchucker wrote:

I started to learn to use it, it's easy to get started, somewhat more
complicated to do more complicated things.

I found it just the opposite, hard to get started, (extremely not
intuitive) but once you get the basics the rest is easy.

I wish I could use it, but I don't use it often enough to retain the
knowledge. If you use it regularly it is clearly the way to go. If you
use it sporadically you may find yourself learning it over and over.

This is really true, and truer the older you get.Â* I re-learned what I
knew quite a few times because I didn't use it for long periods, but, it
does get easier each time.Â* If you use it regularly, like anything, it
will become easier. Sketchup is one app you need to know quite a few
things before you can do anything at all. The biggest detriment to
learning it is trying to take learning shortcuts. My recommendation to
learning it is give it up, go to Youtube and use the tutorials to learn
the basics. There a a myriad of good ones.

One thing I want to add however is the versions.Â* I *think* version 7
something was the last Google version before they sold it off.Â* I was
always hesitant to upgrade Sketchup as my too many years of experience
with shareware/freeware was that eventually, an upgrade would screw you.
Â*I used version 7 something for a long time, and for absolutely no good
reason (version 7 something worked perfectly fine) I stupidly upgraded
to Version 8.Â* Well, that works about exactly as version 7 did, far as I
can tell, but, it has an annoying start-up splash screen that displays
each time you start it.Â* Not a big deal, just an annoyance.Â* When you
access any old sketchup file with a newer version of SU, then you can
never again access that file with the older version.

I know I will never, ever upgrade SU again if I can help it, and if I
had it to do over again, I would have stuck with GoogleSketchUpWEN7.exe.
My recommendation is look for that version (DAGS) and use that one.Â* I
suspect that the new commercial owners will be less willing to let the
world use their product for free, and each future up grade will be
pushing freeloading customers towards the commercial product.Â* I could
of course be wrong, but really don't see any need for everyday
woodworker to go beyond version 7, which should meet most all
woodworkers needs.



I hear what you are saying Jack. BUT good news. You can upgrade with
out fear of loosing the precious version. I have multiple versions of
Sketch up on my computer. I have Sketchup 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, and
2017. I had the same fears of an upgrade issue.

The only thing, since these are clean installs, is setting up your icons
and shortcuts, if you customize Sketchup to your preferences, for the
new version, that takes me an hour or two.

On 9/1/2017 11:03 AM, Leon wrote:
On 9/1/2017 10:10 AM, Jack wrote:
On 8/31/2017 10:17 PM, woodchucker wrote:

I started to learn to use it, it's easy to get started, somewhat more
complicated to do more complicated things.

I found it just the opposite, hard to get started, (extremely not
intuitive) but once you get the basics the rest is easy.

I wish I could use it, but I don't use it often enough to retain the
knowledge. If you use it regularly it is clearly the way to go. If you
use it sporadically you may find yourself learning it over and over.

This is really true, and truer the older you get.Â* I re-learned what I
knew quite a few times because I didn't use it for long periods, but,
it does get easier each time.Â* If you use it regularly, like anything,
it will become easier. Sketchup is one app you need to know quite a
few things before you can do anything at all. The biggest detriment to
learning it is trying to take learning shortcuts. My recommendation to
learning it is give it up, go to Youtube and use the tutorials to
learn the basics. There a a myriad of good ones.

One thing I want to add however is the versions.Â* I *think* version 7
something was the last Google version before they sold it off.Â* I was
always hesitant to upgrade Sketchup as my too many years of experience
with shareware/freeware was that eventually, an upgrade would screw
you. Â*Â*I used version 7 something for a long time, and for absolutely
no good reason (version 7 something worked perfectly fine) I stupidly
upgraded to Version 8.Â* Well, that works about exactly as version 7
did, far as I can tell, but, it has an annoying start-up splash screen
that displays each time you start it.Â* Not a big deal, just an
annoyance.Â* When you access any old sketchup file with a newer version
of SU, then you can never again access that file with the older version.

I know I will never, ever upgrade SU again if I can help it, and if I
had it to do over again, I would have stuck with GoogleSketchUpWEN7.exe.
My recommendation is look for that version (DAGS) and use that one.Â* I
suspect that the new commercial owners will be less willing to let the
world use their product for free, and each future up grade will be
pushing freeloading customers towards the commercial product.Â* I could
of course be wrong, but really don't see any need for everyday
woodworker to go beyond version 7, which should meet most all
woodworkers needs.



I hear what you are saying Jack.Â* BUT good news.Â* You can upgrade with
out fear of loosing the precious version.Â* I have multiple versions of
Sketch up on my computer.Â* I have Sketchup 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, and
2017.Â* I had the same fears of an upgrade issue.

The only thing, since these are clean installs, is setting up your icons
and shortcuts, if you customize Sketchup to your preferences, for the
new version, that takes me an hour or two.



Let me add to that, older versions cannot read newer version data files.
So rename and or save older drawings in a different location if you
open them in newer versions of Sketchup and want to save.

On 9/1/2017 12:03 PM, Leon wrote:
On 9/1/2017 10:10 AM, Jack wrote:

I know I will never, ever upgrade SU again if I can help it, and if I
had it to do over again, I would have stuck with GoogleSketchUpWEN7.exe.
My recommendation is look for that version (DAGS) and use that one. I
suspect that the new commercial owners will be less willing to let the
world use their product for free, and each future up grade will be
pushing freeloading customers towards the commercial product. I could
of course be wrong, but really don't see any need for everyday
woodworker to go beyond version 7, which should meet most all
woodworkers needs.

I hear what you are saying Jack. BUT good news. You can upgrade with
out fear of loosing the precious version. I have multiple versions of
Sketch up on my computer. I have Sketchup 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, and
2017. I had the same fears of an upgrade issue.

The issue with that is don't open an old .SKP file in a newer version,
or it will convert it to the new version and the old version will no
longer open it, so you are stuck using the new version even on old
files. I'm running version 8 something which seems to work exactly the
same as version 7. Could be new stuff I'm not aware of, but for my
money, 7 does everything I need and then some. The nag screen is
absolutely NOT worth the upgrade, as that seems to be all the upgrade
did for me. I could go back I guess, but too lazy to fool around with
mixed files/versions and all that rot.

The only thing, since these are clean installs, is setting up your icons
and shortcuts, if you customize Sketchup to your preferences, for the
new version, that takes me an hour or two.
That's another issue.

One thing for certain, Sketchup is a great tool for the woodworker. I
enjoy it almost as much as actually making stuff, and have designed lots
of stuff I never actually made. I do recall (faintly) in BC (Before
Computers) and I was really really into making stuff, I could draw a few
lines on a of scrap paper in a few minutes and build most anything.
Today, I can spend lots of time drawing up stuff for no really good
reason actually, but I seem to need it now... It's most useful purpose
is letting you see what a one off design will actually look like. As
far as the joinery, really, no need to draw up something you've done a
few 1000 times, or a few 100, or even just a few...
--
Jack
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.
http://jbstein.com

On 9/2/2017 8:51 AM, Jack wrote:
On 9/1/2017 12:03 PM, Leon wrote:
On 9/1/2017 10:10 AM, Jack wrote:

I know I will never, ever upgrade SU again if I can help it, and if I
had it to do over again, I would have stuck with GoogleSketchUpWEN7.exe.
My recommendation is look for that version (DAGS) and use that one.Â* I
suspect that the new commercial owners will be less willing to let the
world use their product for free, and each future up grade will be
pushing freeloading customers towards the commercial product.Â* I could
of course be wrong, but really don't see any need for everyday
woodworker to go beyond version 7, which should meet most all
woodworkers needs.

I hear what you are saying Jack.Â* BUT good news.Â* You can upgrade with
out fear of loosing the precious version.Â* I have multiple versions of
Sketch up on my computer.Â* I have Sketchup 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, and
2017.Â* I had the same fears of an upgrade issue.

The issue with that is don't open an old .SKP file in a newer version,
or it will convert it to the new version and the old version will no
longer open it, so you are stuck using the new version even on old
files.

I have no issues with new versions of Sketchup opening old versions data
files at all. You will get a warning when you open the older file that
if you save it with the new version that you will not be able to open it
in an older version.

Newer versions of Sketchup DO NOT convert older files unless you save
them. Save them with a different name and your old files will be safe
and intact.


BUT as a precaution my Sketchup 2012 drawings are saved in a root
directory that includes 2012. For each year that I upgrade I create a
new data directory which includes the version year in its name, like
2013, and copy all of the 2012 files into the 2013 directory.

Having used most every version since 5 or 6 I have not skipped a year of
upgrades yet and have had no issues other than reorganizing the icons on
the program screen.

Thinking back, I may remember the nag screen to upgrade on the old
versions. but since Sketchup came out with the MAKE, free version, there
are no nag screens that I recall.


I'm running version 8 something which seems to work exactly the
same as version 7.Â* Could be new stuff I'm not aware of, but for my
money, 7 does everything I need and then some.Â* The nag screen is
absolutely NOT worth the upgrade, as that seems to be all the upgrade
did for me.Â* I could go back I guess, but too lazy to fool around with
mixed files/versions and all that rot.

At least in the last 4~5 years of upgrades, there are no nag screens.
So far nothing you are worried about are real situations.




The only thing, since these are clean installs, is setting up your icons
and shortcuts, if you customize Sketchup to your preferences, for the
new version, that takes me an hour or two.
That's another issue.

One thing for certain, Sketchup is a great tool for the woodworker. I
enjoy it almost as much as actually making stuff, and have designed lots
of stuff I never actually made.Â* I do recall (faintly) in BC (Before
Computers) and I was really really into making stuff, I could draw a few
lines on a of scrap paper in a few minutes and build most anything.
Today, I can spend lots of time drawing up stuff for no really good
reason actually, but I seem to need it now... It's most useful purpose
is letting you see what a one off design will actually look like.Â* As
far as the joinery, really, no need to draw up something you've done a
few 1000 times, or a few 100, or even just a few...

I still draw the joints but I build most every thing I draw. It is
important to show the tenons that are normally hidden because my
optimization plug in and program takes into account the actual length of
the pieces including the hidden tenons that stick out on the ends. I
get a cut out list of how long the boards need to be before cutting away
to reveal tenons.
Also when drawing the details of the joints I have a reference should I
need to double check in the shop. After drawing the details of the
dado, groves, and joints I am pretty intimate with the details of the
project and work more quickly in the shop.

On Wednesday, August 30, 2017 at 1:42:07 PM UTC-6, wrote:
I lurk here, and post now and then. I've learned a lot, but I have a
question that I haven't seen answered.

I still do my plans with a T Square and Triangles. I think I would like
to learn SketchUp. I have watched their Getting Started videos and it
seems pretty simple - at least to do simple things. Is it? What is the
learning curve like? Any thoughts or suggestions will be appreciated.
--
Jerry O.

Jerry;
I am writing a book on learning sketchup that will be released sometime next year. So you will be my test case. Most books and you tube videos assume you know something about software and how it's written, a majority of people haven't a clue yet "use" software everyday. So

1st treat any program like a mystery novel. When someone writes a book they have a plot outlined with characters, situations, perils etc all outlined. Then they fill in the words to form the story. Same goes for software you have a lead programmer and they set the way software moves from one function to the next, they set the way the "user interface acts" etc. Bottom line to really learn a software program you need to figure out what the lead programmer was thinking. In sketchup they tell you but don't make a big deal just mention it in passing.

What they tell you is sketchup is designed for you to make 1 of each different component of your design and then make copies. By doing this you change say 1 leg of a table and they all change.

So the process is make all the rough milled components the go back and edit the component which will edit all the copies of the component.

So the process for a table is make a leg. Make the leg a component. Move the leg component to a new layer. The reason for moving to a new layer for leg is that you can turn off the other layers and work on just the leg layer.

Next make a side apron. Make the side apron a component. Move the side apron to a new layer.

Next make a front apron Make the front apron a componet. Move the front apron to a new layer. Change the layer names as needed.

Continue making components till you have all you need for your project.

Now go back to the leg layer and uncheck all of the other layers so all you see is the legs. Use the "ctrl move" function to copy and make more legs. Add you jointery by "editing the component" next rotate the remaining legs to have the joints match the apron connections.

After finishing the legs move to the aprons make a copy using "ctrl move" to make a copy then "edit the component" till your happy with the results.

Now turn on the legs and apron layers. Read up on how to use move with the mid-point marker and join aprons to legs.

WARNING WARNING WARNING if you don't make components you will suffer the ire of the software gods!!!! Sketchup has what's called a inference engine - that's why the cursor goes nuts sometimes. The inference engine "ASSUMES" if you add anything to a drawing that it belongS to that part and so it merges any new lines into your part so you cannot easily later go back and take it apart to modify it.Think of making a table leg then a apron gluing them together, then gluing another leg apron etc. And then going back and trying to taper the legs. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED

SketchUp is a good program but was created for architects to show off their designs not wood working. Just look at the menus and descriptions they are not like any other drafting programs. If you use real drafting programs like AutoCad you will recognize SketchUp trying to re-write the universally accepted names and functions of drafting programs.

Good luck

Doc