On 8/20/2015 10:28 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
"Leon" wrote:



Many Many years ago ,1979ish, I worked for a GM dealership and for
specific reasons did my best to burn out a "defective" 12 volt
window regulator motor, the motor that raises and lowers the window.

I hooded it up to two brand new 12 volt batteries and the result was
that the motor ran faster. Long story short I had the voltage up to
72 volts, 5 batteries, and the motor screamed for 1 minute and I
gave up. I was unable to burn the motor up to that point
-------------------------------------------
During the mid sixties, I worked for a company that manufacturied
electric
motors for antennas, windows, etc.

We referred to these motors as powered guiltiness.

Part of the spec from the OEM was that the battery fail before the
battery.

Fires were another part of the spec. Didn't the door panel catching on
fire
if the motor locked up.

Lew


which failed before which? ;~)

If the regulator motor locked up a fuse should have blown and or a
breaker tripped.

On 8/20/2015 10:44 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Thu, 20 Aug 2015 21:21:27 -0500, Martin Eastburn
wrote:

Smart motor controller not a dumb one. One that provides 2 or 3
voltages for the circuits and a master branch for the motor.

New designs require new batteries.

I would agree about the chargers but unless the protection circuits
are in the tool (rather than the battery pack) there is no reason a
the packs couldn't be made interchangeable. It would be a simple
matter to make the form factor enough different that people wouldn't
be tempted to use the wrong one anyway.


I really wish you people would learn something about the products you
are criticizing before you criticize.

DeWalt makea a line of 18v tools. For those tools they have NiCd packs
and LiIon packs. The packs are interchangeable in the tools and the
most recent chargers will charge either and NiMH as well.

But the packs fit tools that were not designed for lithium ion and
there's a possibility that someone will try to charge one in an older
charger that was not designed for lithium ion, so the packs have to have
the protective circuits that are necessary to keep them from blowing
somebody's ass to Hell. That adds to the cost of the packs.

The circuits are to protect the battery regardless, with out the
circuitry the correct charger will damage the battery. It adds to the
cost of "ALL" Li-Ion batteries.




The 20v tools have a differently SHAPED battery pack that is different
so that nobody can put one in a tool that was not designed for lithium
ion or in a charger that was not designed for lithium ion, and so the
packs don't need to have the protective circuits and can thus be made
and sold at significantly lower cost.


Does not matter if a Li-Ion battery is used in what ever tool. It is
all about the charging of Li-Ion.


Saying "therei's no reason the packs couldn't be made interchangeable"
just displays ignorance of the the fact that deWalt makes packe that ARE
interchangeable.

Which backs up what we are saying.

"Leon" wrote:

which failed before which?
----------------------------------------------------
The battery had to fail by definition.

No circuit protective devices were allowed.

You should have seen the test to distruction when a large
cranking motor for a large Cummins was bolted down in a
large bench vice cranking locking the roter and stator
together.

A pair of 8D batteries were connected to the cranked motor
via a 400 amp knife switch that was nailed to the the floor.

The weldinq cable was doing a St. Vitas dance while the
test was in progress.

On Thursday, August 20, 2015 at 5:01:51 AM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

The US has the ability to make a quality tool, but between Marketing
and Accounting, hitting a low price point with high volume is more
important. There was a time that Black & Decker meant quality too,
now they are cheapened for the mass market, not the skilled craftsman.
DeWalt is just a half step above that in yellow.

Well said. I remember going into the trades back in the early 70s, and it was a different world. There were NO foreign tools on the job. Porter Cable was king, and they made a fine grade of professional tools. They had some competition with the industrial line of Black and Decker (excellent tools, available only through a professional jobber), Millers Falls, the top line of Skil, and from a small company that made drills and the original Sawzall, Milwaukee. They were the kings of the job site as they cost a lot, but they lasted for years on site, and were rebuildable. I still have my Milwaukee Hole Shooter purchased in '76, and although it has had many cords, a few sets of brushes and a trigger or two, it still works! My last Milwaukee circular saw was rebuilt (bearings, brushes, triggers, cords) than I remember, and it finally had so many things wrong they couldn't get all the parts. My Porter Cable circular saw (346C) runs to this day. It is so old you have to load the grease cup every few days when you are using it.

These were fine tools, engineered for professionals that put them to work all day long. I didn't cry about spending money on them; I dutifully waited until I could afford them as I knew they were a good investment in a quality tool. My last American made tools to do that for me are my Bosch router, my Bosch circular saw, and my Sioux circular sander/polisher. All of those models are made somewhere else now, somewhere other than here.

So I know it can be done. ANYPLACE that can make a tool that will serve on the job for 30 years or more knows their stuff, and that used to be us. I just don't think there is that kind of desire for quality or the desire to make it by a manufacturer. "Good enough" is the manufacturing standard of the day, and I have adjusted my expectations accordingly.

I think it odd to see foreign names on the tools being touted so highly. Thinking back on the old tools when I was reading this thread, I remember back in the early 70s there were NO foreign tools allowed. Period. If you hauled it out on site, you were warned to put it up or it got smashed. I live in "Military City USA" where we has at one time 8 military bases.

So there were no Japanese tools. There were no German tools. There were no Italian tools. Thinking back, WWII was only about 25 - 27 years past us, and that wasn't far enough for the experienced hands on the job. Some of the guys I worked with weren't even 50, and they served in WWII, so they thought it disrespectful and disloyal to support our old enemies in any way. The local unions banished all foreign made tools from the jobs, period, no exceptions. We used American only and were damn proud of it.

I do have two DeWalt tools, a sander and miter saw. Both are
serviceable for the price, but there are better out there.

I like their 10" miter saw, and have a few other DeWalts and agree with your statement. No bad, but I quit seeing too many DeWalt products on the job for a real simple reason: they don't last well for site use. Their drills are still pretty good, and since they are now priced around the Ryobis, are probably a pretty good deal, as they now have the same warranty as the Ryobi products. I have never had a saw or drill from DeWalt last longer than 3 years, so I think their warranty reflects their product confidence. Hopefully, they would last a homeowner longer than that since I probably use saws and drills in a week more than some do in a year.

Guess we will see what happens to the new made in America line. I have buddies that will buy those tools simply because they have that sticker. When I had three DW recips saws in a row fail in one week, a drill last about 2 years (one year warranty at that time) and had to return other DW tools simply due to poor quality of fit/finish/performance, that did it for me.

Robert

" wrote:
On Thursday, August 20, 2015 at 5:01:51 AM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

The US has the ability to make a quality tool, but between Marketing
and Accounting, hitting a low price point with high volume is more
important. There was a time that Black & Decker meant quality too,
now they are cheapened for the mass market, not the skilled craftsman.
DeWalt is just a half step above that in yellow.

Well said. I remember going into the trades back in the early 70s, and
it was a different world. There were NO foreign tools on the job.
Porter Cable was king, and they made a fine grade of professional tools.
They had some competition with the industrial line of Black and Decker
(excellent tools, available only through a professional jobber), Millers
Falls, the top line of Skil, and from a small company that made drills
and the original Sawzall, Milwaukee. They were the kings of the job site
as they cost a lot, but they lasted for years on site, and were
rebuildable. I still have my Milwaukee Hole Shooter purchased in '76,
and although it has had many cords, a few sets of brushes and a trigger
or two, it still works! My last Milwaukee circular saw was rebuilt
(bearings, brushes, triggers, cords) than I remember, and it finally had
so many things wrong they couldn't get all the parts. My Porter Cable
circular saw (346C) runs to this day. It is so old you have to load the
grease cup every few days when you are using it.

These were fine tools, engineered for professionals that put them to work
all day long. I didn't cry about spending money on them; I dutifully
waited until I could afford them as I knew they were a good investment in
a quality tool. My last American made tools to do that for me are my
Bosch router, my Bosch circular saw, and my Sioux circular
sander/polisher. All of those models are made somewhere else now,
somewhere other than here.

So I know it can be done. ANYPLACE that can make a tool that will serve
on the job for 30 years or more knows their stuff, and that used to be
us. I just don't think there is that kind of desire for quality or the
desire to make it by a manufacturer. "Good enough" is the manufacturing
standard of the day, and I have adjusted my expectations accordingly.

I think it odd to see foreign names on the tools being touted so highly.
Thinking back on the old tools when I was reading this thread, I remember
back in the early 70s there were NO foreign tools allowed. Period. If
you hauled it out on site, you were warned to put it up or it got
smashed. I live in "Military City USA" where we has at one time 8 military bases.

So there were no Japanese tools. There were no German tools. There were
no Italian tools. Thinking back, WWII was only about 25 - 27 years past
us, and that wasn't far enough for the experienced hands on the job.
Some of the guys I worked with weren't even 50, and they served in WWII,
so they thought it disrespectful and disloyal to support our old enemies
in any way. The local unions banished all foreign made tools from the
jobs, period, no exceptions. We used American only and were damn proud of it.

I do have two DeWalt tools, a sander and miter saw. Both are
serviceable for the price, but there are better out there.

I like their 10" miter saw, and have a few other DeWalts and agree with
your statement. No bad, but I quit seeing too many DeWalt products on
the job for a real simple reason: they don't last well for site use.
Their drills are still pretty good, and since they are now priced around
the Ryobis, are probably a pretty good deal, as they now have the same
warranty as the Ryobi products. I have never had a saw or drill from
DeWalt last longer than 3 years, so I think their warranty reflects their
product confidence. Hopefully, they would last a homeowner longer than
that since I probably use saws and drills in a week more than some do in a year.

Guess we will see what happens to the new made in America line. I have
buddies that will buy those tools simply because they have that sticker.
When I had three DW recips saws in a row fail in one week, a drill last
about 2 years (one year warranty at that time) and had to return other DW
tools simply due to poor quality of fit/finish/performance, that did it for me.

Robert

I remember when Made in America meant a standard of quality. . Now it
simply means where it is built.

"Lew Hodgett" wrote:
"Leon" wrote:

which failed before which?
----------------------------------------------------
The battery had to fail by definition.

No circuit protective devices were allowed.

You should have seen the test to distruction when a large
cranking motor for a large Cummins was bolted down in a
large bench vice cranking locking the roter and stator
together.

A pair of 8D batteries were connected to the cranked motor
via a 400 amp knife switch that was nailed to the the floor.

The weldinq cable was doing a St. Vitas dance while the
test was in progress.

I bet that was pretty interesting. Did the motor glow red? I have seen
the old style aluminum jumper cables dance when jumping a vehicle. Funny
and scary. Copper jumping is another story.

On Thu, 20 Aug 2015 21:21:27 -0500, Martin Eastburn
wrote:

Smart motor controller not a dumb one. One that provides 2 or 3
voltages for the circuits and a master branch for the motor.

New designs require new batteries.

Bull! That is just an excuse for an incompetent engineer.

On 8/21/2015 8:16 AM, Gordon Shumway wrote:
On Thu, 20 Aug 2015 21:21:27 -0500, Martin Eastburn
wrote:

Smart motor controller not a dumb one. One that provides 2 or 3
voltages for the circuits and a master branch for the motor.

New designs require new batteries.

Bull! That is just an excuse for an incompetent engineer.



I think the engineer is probably competent but is doing what he is told.

Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:



I doubt that Li-Ion batteries will come with out protection circuitry.
This circuitry communicates with the smart charger during recharge so
that the charger does not damage the Li-Ion charger.


The problem Lithium-based batteries have is that they can overheat and then
literally burn up. They need some form of protection to keep them from
doing so and causing fire.

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

On 8/21/2015 9:58 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:



I doubt that Li-Ion batteries will come with out protection circuitry.
This circuitry communicates with the smart charger during recharge so
that the charger does not damage the Li-Ion charger.


The problem Lithium-based batteries have is that they can overheat and then
literally burn up. They need some form of protection to keep them from
doing so and causing fire.

Puckdropper


Right, and they need to be able to communicate through internal
circuitry with the charger, that can all be handled within the battery.

On Thu, 20 Aug 2015 22:23:06 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 8/20/2015 9:49 PM, krw wrote:
On Thu, 20 Aug 2015 21:21:27 -0500, Martin Eastburn
wrote:

Smart motor controller not a dumb one. One that provides 2 or 3
voltages for the circuits and a master branch for the motor.

New designs require new batteries.

I would agree about the chargers but unless the protection circuits
are in the tool (rather than the battery pack) there is no reason a
the packs couldn't be made interchangeable. It would be a simple
matter to make the form factor enough different that people wouldn't
be tempted to use the wrong one anyway.



I doubt that Li-Ion batteries will come with out protection circuitry.

Oh, they *certainly* do. Most have a small microprocessor in them, as
well. LiIon has a nasty habit of letting out the magic smoke (and
fire). A decent appliance will have a "gas gauge" chip built into the
battery to remember its charge state. It's quite difficult, to
impossible, to do this in the appliance.

This circuitry communicates with the smart charger during recharge so
that the charger does not damage the Li-Ion charger.

No, the problem is *not* just during charge. It's possible to put the
protection circuits into the tool but not advised. Each cell should
be monitored.

On Fri, 21 Aug 2015 11:07:11 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 8/21/2015 9:58 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:



I doubt that Li-Ion batteries will come with out protection circuitry.
This circuitry communicates with the smart charger during recharge so
that the charger does not damage the Li-Ion charger.


The problem Lithium-based batteries have is that they can overheat and then
literally burn up. They need some form of protection to keep them from
doing so and causing fire.

Puckdropper


Right, and they need to be able to communicate through internal
circuitry with the charger, that can all be handled within the battery.

No, the fire problem is not just during the charge cycle.

On Thu, 20 Aug 2015 23:44:08 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Thu, 20 Aug 2015 21:21:27 -0500, Martin Eastburn
wrote:

Smart motor controller not a dumb one. One that provides 2 or 3
voltages for the circuits and a master branch for the motor.

New designs require new batteries.

I would agree about the chargers but unless the protection circuits
are in the tool (rather than the battery pack) there is no reason a
the packs couldn't be made interchangeable. It would be a simple
matter to make the form factor enough different that people wouldn't
be tempted to use the wrong one anyway.


I really wish you people would learn something about the products you
are criticizing before you criticize.

I really wish "you people" would reply to the right person. I didn't
criticize anyone. Just stated a fact.

DeWalt makea a line of 18v tools. For those tools they have NiCd packs
and LiIon packs. The packs are interchangeable in the tools and the
most recent chargers will charge either and NiMH as well.

Where did I say differently?

But the packs fit tools that were not designed for lithium ion and
there's a possibility that someone will try to charge one in an older
charger that was not designed for lithium ion, so the packs have to have
the protective circuits that are necessary to keep them from blowing
somebody's ass to Hell. That adds to the cost of the packs.

OK, where did I say differently?

The 20v tools have a differently SHAPED battery pack that is different
so that nobody can put one in a tool that was not designed for lithium
ion or in a charger that was not designed for lithium ion, and so the
packs don't need to have the protective circuits and can thus be made
and sold at significantly lower cost.

That doesn't change the fact that 20V LiIon batteries are the same
damned thing as 18V LiIon batteries.

Saying "therei's no reason the packs couldn't be made interchangeable"
just displays ignorance of the the fact that deWalt makes packe that ARE
interchangeable.

See. There is no reason. Thank you for supporting my assertion.

BTW, I have several DeWalt cordless tools. They *rarely* get used.
With a few exceptions, they're junk.

On Fri, 21 Aug 2015 08:22:39 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 8/21/2015 8:16 AM, Gordon Shumway wrote:
On Thu, 20 Aug 2015 21:21:27 -0500, Martin Eastburn
wrote:

Smart motor controller not a dumb one. One that provides 2 or 3
voltages for the circuits and a master branch for the motor.

New designs require new batteries.

Bull! That is just an excuse for an incompetent engineer.



I think the engineer is probably competent but is doing what he is told.

....by a lawyer. ;-)

On Thu, 20 Aug 2015 10:17:43 -0500
"Dave in SoTex" wrote:

My partner and I quit DeWalt cordless tools years ago account
poor battery performance, primarily that they didn't seem to last
more than two or three years. After which I acquired a Makita 18v kit
whose batteries lasted seven or eight years.

hope mine last that long

More recently one of two plumbers who did some work for me
plugged his well-used DeWalt charger with battery into a nearby GFI
receptacle. Some time after they left I discovered the GFI had
tripped. Didn't surprise me.

maybe that is the answer
use gfi receptacles everywhere to protect us from this junk they
are shipping by the container full

On 8/21/2015 12:08 PM, krw wrote:
On Thu, 20 Aug 2015 22:23:06 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 8/20/2015 9:49 PM, krw wrote:
On Thu, 20 Aug 2015 21:21:27 -0500, Martin Eastburn
wrote:

Smart motor controller not a dumb one. One that provides 2 or 3
voltages for the circuits and a master branch for the motor.

New designs require new batteries.

I would agree about the chargers but unless the protection circuits
are in the tool (rather than the battery pack) there is no reason a
the packs couldn't be made interchangeable. It would be a simple
matter to make the form factor enough different that people wouldn't
be tempted to use the wrong one anyway.



I doubt that Li-Ion batteries will come with out protection circuitry.

Oh, they *certainly* do. Most have a small microprocessor in them, as
well. LiIon has a nasty habit of letting out the magic smoke (and
fire). A decent appliance will have a "gas gauge" chip built into the
battery to remember its charge state. It's quite difficult, to
impossible, to do this in the appliance.

This circuitry communicates with the smart charger during recharge so
that the charger does not damage the Li-Ion charger.

No, the problem is *not* just during charge. It's possible to put the
protection circuits into the tool but not advised. Each cell should
be monitored.



I think we are saying the same thing here. I doubt they come
"with out" protection circuitry

In article ,
says...

On Thu, 20 Aug 2015 23:44:08 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Thu, 20 Aug 2015 21:21:27 -0500, Martin Eastburn
wrote:

Smart motor controller not a dumb one. One that provides 2 or 3
voltages for the circuits and a master branch for the motor.

New designs require new batteries.

I would agree about the chargers but unless the protection circuits
are in the tool (rather than the battery pack) there is no reason a
the packs couldn't be made interchangeable. It would be a simple
matter to make the form factor enough different that people wouldn't
be tempted to use the wrong one anyway.


I really wish you people would learn something about the products you
are criticizing before you criticize.

I really wish "you people" would reply to the right person. I didn't
criticize anyone. Just stated a fact.

DeWalt makea a line of 18v tools. For those tools they have NiCd packs
and LiIon packs. The packs are interchangeable in the tools and the
most recent chargers will charge either and NiMH as well.

Where did I say differently?

But the packs fit tools that were not designed for lithium ion and
there's a possibility that someone will try to charge one in an older
charger that was not designed for lithium ion, so the packs have to have
the protective circuits that are necessary to keep them from blowing
somebody's ass to Hell. That adds to the cost of the packs.

OK, where did I say differently?

The 20v tools have a differently SHAPED battery pack that is different
so that nobody can put one in a tool that was not designed for lithium
ion or in a charger that was not designed for lithium ion, and so the
packs don't need to have the protective circuits and can thus be made
and sold at significantly lower cost.

That doesn't change the fact that 20V LiIon batteries are the same
damned thing as 18V LiIon batteries.

Saying "therei's no reason the packs couldn't be made interchangeable"
just displays ignorance of the the fact that deWalt makes packe that ARE
interchangeable.

See. There is no reason. Thank you for supporting my assertion.

BTW, I have several DeWalt cordless tools. They *rarely* get used.
With a few exceptions, they're junk.

So why do you have them?

On Fri, 21 Aug 2015 17:49:12 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Thu, 20 Aug 2015 23:44:08 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Thu, 20 Aug 2015 21:21:27 -0500, Martin Eastburn
wrote:

Smart motor controller not a dumb one. One that provides 2 or 3
voltages for the circuits and a master branch for the motor.

New designs require new batteries.

I would agree about the chargers but unless the protection circuits
are in the tool (rather than the battery pack) there is no reason a
the packs couldn't be made interchangeable. It would be a simple
matter to make the form factor enough different that people wouldn't
be tempted to use the wrong one anyway.


I really wish you people would learn something about the products you
are criticizing before you criticize.

I really wish "you people" would reply to the right person. I didn't
criticize anyone. Just stated a fact.

DeWalt makea a line of 18v tools. For those tools they have NiCd packs
and LiIon packs. The packs are interchangeable in the tools and the
most recent chargers will charge either and NiMH as well.

Where did I say differently?

But the packs fit tools that were not designed for lithium ion and
there's a possibility that someone will try to charge one in an older
charger that was not designed for lithium ion, so the packs have to have
the protective circuits that are necessary to keep them from blowing
somebody's ass to Hell. That adds to the cost of the packs.

OK, where did I say differently?

The 20v tools have a differently SHAPED battery pack that is different
so that nobody can put one in a tool that was not designed for lithium
ion or in a charger that was not designed for lithium ion, and so the
packs don't need to have the protective circuits and can thus be made
and sold at significantly lower cost.

That doesn't change the fact that 20V LiIon batteries are the same
damned thing as 18V LiIon batteries.

Saying "therei's no reason the packs couldn't be made interchangeable"
just displays ignorance of the the fact that deWalt makes packe that ARE
interchangeable.

See. There is no reason. Thank you for supporting my assertion.

BTW, I have several DeWalt cordless tools. They *rarely* get used.
With a few exceptions, they're junk.

So why do you have them?

It's pretty simple, really. I didn't know what a piece of **** they
were when I bought them. The circular saw isn't that bad but the rest
makes up for it.

Electric Comet wrote:
On Thu, 20 Aug 2015 10:17:43 -0500
"Dave in SoTex" wrote:

My partner and I quit DeWalt cordless tools years ago account
poor battery performance, primarily that they didn't seem to last
more than two or three years. After which I acquired a Makita 18v kit
whose batteries lasted seven or eight years.

hope mine last that long

More recently one of two plumbers who did some work for me
plugged his well-used DeWalt charger with battery into a nearby GFI
receptacle. Some time after they left I discovered the GFI had
tripped. Didn't surprise me.

maybe that is the answer
use gfi receptacles everywhere to protect us from this junk they
are shipping by the container full

Yeah... whatever...

--

-Mike-

"Leon" wrote:

I bet that was pretty interesting. Did the motor glow red? I
have seen
the old style aluminum jumper cables dance when jumping a vehicle.
Funny
and scary. Copper jumping is another story.

---------------------------------------------------------
You will have to define "glow red", but there was lots of smoke
and stink.

The cool down was over night as I remember.

You are talking about 4/0 CU welding cable.

Remember this is the 1960's.

Lew

On Fri, 21 Aug 2015 13:25:44 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 8/21/2015 12:08 PM, krw wrote:
On Thu, 20 Aug 2015 22:23:06 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 8/20/2015 9:49 PM, krw wrote:
On Thu, 20 Aug 2015 21:21:27 -0500, Martin Eastburn
wrote:

Smart motor controller not a dumb one. One that provides 2 or 3
voltages for the circuits and a master branch for the motor.

New designs require new batteries.

I would agree about the chargers but unless the protection circuits
are in the tool (rather than the battery pack) there is no reason a
the packs couldn't be made interchangeable. It would be a simple
matter to make the form factor enough different that people wouldn't
be tempted to use the wrong one anyway.



I doubt that Li-Ion batteries will come with out protection circuitry.

Oh, they *certainly* do. Most have a small microprocessor in them, as
well. LiIon has a nasty habit of letting out the magic smoke (and
fire). A decent appliance will have a "gas gauge" chip built into the
battery to remember its charge state. It's quite difficult, to
impossible, to do this in the appliance.

This circuitry communicates with the smart charger during recharge so
that the charger does not damage the Li-Ion charger.

No, the problem is *not* just during charge. It's possible to put the
protection circuits into the tool but not advised. Each cell should
be monitored.



I think we are saying the same thing here. I doubt they come
"with out" protection circuitry

Oopsie. Too many negatives. Nevermind!

The company I used to work for put the "gas gauge" in the "tool" but
the battery still had overload protection. You're right. The battery
supplier wouldn't have supplied the pack without at least the minimal
protection.

On Thu, 20 Aug 2015 10:17:43 -0500, "Dave in SoTex"
wrote:


"Electric Comet" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 19 Aug 2015 15:10:19 -0400
Casper wrote:

DeWALT Focuses on “Made in the USA”

they should focus on quality control because no one focuses like we used
to on where it is made


it is a good trend but
i have one dewalt tool left
i would say too little too late

their battery charging in their charger almost burned the house down
another hour and it would have succeeded
no longer have that drill

got a makita now and do not know or care where it was made
it is a good drill

My partner and I quit DeWalt cordless tools years ago account poor
battery performance, primarily that they didn't seem to last more than two
or three years. After which I acquired a Makita 18v kit whose batteries
lasted seven or eight years.
More recently one of two plumbers who did some work for me plugged his
well-used DeWalt charger with battery into a nearby GFI receptacle. Some
time after they left I discovered the GFI had tripped. Didn't surprise me.

Unless it was sitting in water, I doubt that it was a real ground
fault. Likely a bad GFCI (likely from China, too).

When I was in school, the college got some stuff from a big company.

There was a really neat spot welder in the stuff. Bunch of Solid state
stuff. But the spot welder was legend in the department.

When turned on - it was RF power dumping in the copper stranded cables
that were 1" in diameter and soft, soft copper. When the tips arc's
melting a spot - the cables would dance about the table. We saw they
were once bolted down and that is what we did. One fear was for the
cables (bare wire) to bounce into each other. Just short of doing it,
but heat expands metal. That was cool.

Martin

On 8/21/2015 7:13 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
"Leon" wrote:

I bet that was pretty interesting. Did the motor glow red? I
have seen
the old style aluminum jumper cables dance when jumping a vehicle.
Funny
and scary. Copper jumping is another story.

---------------------------------------------------------
You will have to define "glow red", but there was lots of smoke
and stink.

The cool down was over night as I remember.

You are talking about 4/0 CU welding cable.

Remember this is the 1960's.

Lew

On Fri, 21 Aug 2015 20:15:58 -0400
krw wrote:

Unless it was sitting in water, I doubt that it was a real ground
fault. Likely a bad GFCI (likely from China, too).

or more likely an overload
GFI can be tripped by a current overload not just a short to ground

In article ,
says...

On Fri, 21 Aug 2015 17:49:12 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Thu, 20 Aug 2015 23:44:08 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Thu, 20 Aug 2015 21:21:27 -0500, Martin Eastburn
wrote:

Smart motor controller not a dumb one. One that provides 2 or 3
voltages for the circuits and a master branch for the motor.

New designs require new batteries.

I would agree about the chargers but unless the protection circuits
are in the tool (rather than the battery pack) there is no reason a
the packs couldn't be made interchangeable. It would be a simple
matter to make the form factor enough different that people wouldn't
be tempted to use the wrong one anyway.


I really wish you people would learn something about the products you
are criticizing before you criticize.

I really wish "you people" would reply to the right person. I didn't
criticize anyone. Just stated a fact.

DeWalt makea a line of 18v tools. For those tools they have NiCd packs
and LiIon packs. The packs are interchangeable in the tools and the
most recent chargers will charge either and NiMH as well.

Where did I say differently?

But the packs fit tools that were not designed for lithium ion and
there's a possibility that someone will try to charge one in an older
charger that was not designed for lithium ion, so the packs have to have
the protective circuits that are necessary to keep them from blowing
somebody's ass to Hell. That adds to the cost of the packs.

OK, where did I say differently?

The 20v tools have a differently SHAPED battery pack that is different
so that nobody can put one in a tool that was not designed for lithium
ion or in a charger that was not designed for lithium ion, and so the
packs don't need to have the protective circuits and can thus be made
and sold at significantly lower cost.

That doesn't change the fact that 20V LiIon batteries are the same
damned thing as 18V LiIon batteries.

Saying "therei's no reason the packs couldn't be made interchangeable"
just displays ignorance of the the fact that deWalt makes packe that ARE
interchangeable.

See. There is no reason. Thank you for supporting my assertion.

BTW, I have several DeWalt cordless tools. They *rarely* get used.
With a few exceptions, they're junk.

So why do you have them?

It's pretty simple, really. I didn't know what a piece of **** they
were when I bought them. The circular saw isn't that bad but the rest
makes up for it.

Aww, and you were doing _such_ a good job of trolling.

Electric Comet wrote:
On Fri, 21 Aug 2015 20:15:58 -0400
krw wrote:

Unless it was sitting in water, I doubt that it was a real ground
fault. Likely a bad GFCI (likely from China, too).

or more likely an overload
GFI can be tripped by a current overload not just a short to ground

More likely you're not correct.

--

-Mike-

On Fri, 21 Aug 2015 07:49:07 -0500, Leon wrote:

" wrote:
On Thursday, August 20, 2015 at 5:01:51 AM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

The US has the ability to make a quality tool, but between Marketing
and Accounting, hitting a low price point with high volume is more
important. There was a time that Black & Decker meant quality too,
now they are cheapened for the mass market, not the skilled craftsman.
DeWalt is just a half step above that in yellow.

Well said. I remember going into the trades back in the early 70s, and
it was a different world. There were NO foreign tools on the job.
Porter Cable was king, and they made a fine grade of professional tools.
They had some competition with the industrial line of Black and Decker
(excellent tools, available only through a professional jobber), Millers
Falls, the top line of Skil, and from a small company that made drills
and the original Sawzall, Milwaukee. They were the kings of the job site
as they cost a lot, but they lasted for years on site, and were
rebuildable. I still have my Milwaukee Hole Shooter purchased in '76,
and although it has had many cords, a few sets of brushes and a trigger
or two, it still works! My last Milwaukee circular saw was rebuilt
(bearings, brushes, triggers, cords) than I remember, and it finally had
so many things wrong they couldn't get all the parts. My Porter Cable
circular saw (346C) runs to this day. It is so old you have to load the
grease cup every few days when you are using it.

These were fine tools, engineered for professionals that put them to work
all day long. I didn't cry about spending money on them; I dutifully
waited until I could afford them as I knew they were a good investment in
a quality tool. My last American made tools to do that for me are my
Bosch router, my Bosch circular saw, and my Sioux circular
sander/polisher. All of those models are made somewhere else now,
somewhere other than here.

So I know it can be done. ANYPLACE that can make a tool that will serve
on the job for 30 years or more knows their stuff, and that used to be
us. I just don't think there is that kind of desire for quality or the
desire to make it by a manufacturer. "Good enough" is the manufacturing
standard of the day, and I have adjusted my expectations accordingly.

I think it odd to see foreign names on the tools being touted so highly.
Thinking back on the old tools when I was reading this thread, I remember
back in the early 70s there were NO foreign tools allowed. Period. If
you hauled it out on site, you were warned to put it up or it got
smashed. I live in "Military City USA" where we has at one time 8 military bases.

So there were no Japanese tools. There were no German tools. There were
no Italian tools. Thinking back, WWII was only about 25 - 27 years past
us, and that wasn't far enough for the experienced hands on the job.
Some of the guys I worked with weren't even 50, and they served in WWII,
so they thought it disrespectful and disloyal to support our old enemies
in any way. The local unions banished all foreign made tools from the
jobs, period, no exceptions. We used American only and were damn proud of it.

I do have two DeWalt tools, a sander and miter saw. Both are
serviceable for the price, but there are better out there.

I like their 10" miter saw, and have a few other DeWalts and agree with
your statement. No bad, but I quit seeing too many DeWalt products on
the job for a real simple reason: they don't last well for site use.
Their drills are still pretty good, and since they are now priced around
the Ryobis, are probably a pretty good deal, as they now have the same
warranty as the Ryobi products. I have never had a saw or drill from
DeWalt last longer than 3 years, so I think their warranty reflects their
product confidence. Hopefully, they would last a homeowner longer than
that since I probably use saws and drills in a week more than some do in a year.

Guess we will see what happens to the new made in America line. I have
buddies that will buy those tools simply because they have that sticker.
When I had three DW recips saws in a row fail in one week, a drill last
about 2 years (one year warranty at that time) and had to return other DW
tools simply due to poor quality of fit/finish/performance, that did it for me.

Robert

I remember when Made in America meant a standard of quality. . Now it
simply means where it is built.

Assembled

On Fri, 21 Aug 2015 21:07:54 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Fri, 21 Aug 2015 17:49:12 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Thu, 20 Aug 2015 23:44:08 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Thu, 20 Aug 2015 21:21:27 -0500, Martin Eastburn
wrote:

Smart motor controller not a dumb one. One that provides 2 or 3
voltages for the circuits and a master branch for the motor.

New designs require new batteries.

I would agree about the chargers but unless the protection circuits
are in the tool (rather than the battery pack) there is no reason a
the packs couldn't be made interchangeable. It would be a simple
matter to make the form factor enough different that people wouldn't
be tempted to use the wrong one anyway.


I really wish you people would learn something about the products you
are criticizing before you criticize.

I really wish "you people" would reply to the right person. I didn't
criticize anyone. Just stated a fact.

DeWalt makea a line of 18v tools. For those tools they have NiCd packs
and LiIon packs. The packs are interchangeable in the tools and the
most recent chargers will charge either and NiMH as well.

Where did I say differently?

But the packs fit tools that were not designed for lithium ion and
there's a possibility that someone will try to charge one in an older
charger that was not designed for lithium ion, so the packs have to have
the protective circuits that are necessary to keep them from blowing
somebody's ass to Hell. That adds to the cost of the packs.

OK, where did I say differently?

The 20v tools have a differently SHAPED battery pack that is different
so that nobody can put one in a tool that was not designed for lithium
ion or in a charger that was not designed for lithium ion, and so the
packs don't need to have the protective circuits and can thus be made
and sold at significantly lower cost.

That doesn't change the fact that 20V LiIon batteries are the same
damned thing as 18V LiIon batteries.

Saying "therei's no reason the packs couldn't be made interchangeable"
just displays ignorance of the the fact that deWalt makes packe that ARE
interchangeable.

See. There is no reason. Thank you for supporting my assertion.

BTW, I have several DeWalt cordless tools. They *rarely* get used.
With a few exceptions, they're junk.

So why do you have them?

It's pretty simple, really. I didn't know what a piece of **** they
were when I bought them. The circular saw isn't that bad but the rest
makes up for it.

Aww, and you were doing _such_ a good job of trolling.

I was about to say the same about you. But that's your MO, recently.

On Fri, 21 Aug 2015 17:40:15 -0700, Electric Comet
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Aug 2015 20:15:58 -0400
krw wrote:

Unless it was sitting in water, I doubt that it was a real ground
fault. Likely a bad GFCI (likely from China, too).

or more likely an overload
GFI can be tripped by a current overload not just a short to ground

Then something is wrong with the GFCI. They are not circuit breakers
(well, unless they are GFCI breakers ;-). Some are sensitive to
harmonics (crappy waveforms) on the line, though. It's possible the
charger was putting crap on the line, too.