In the second labor of Hercules, he was called on to slay the Hydra, a
creature with many heads. Each time he sliced off a head, two quickly
grew in its place.

I was somehow reminded of that as I opened the latest can of worms - uh
-- stain.

I bought a can of General Finishes "Candelite" gel stain today. The
fellow in the store went as far as to test it out on a piece of red oak
(ply) for me. That's what I call customer service, so if you're ever in
the Norwalk Ct. area, make sure to stop by the Woodworker's Club (a
Woodcraft affiliate).

I took it home and applied it to some of the red oak leftovers from my
current project, which - with the steady accumulation of test pieces -
I am quickly running out of. The color going on was very much like I had
hoped it would be, but became diluted when I wiped off the "excess" with
a clean rag. Following Leon's advice, I had done so right after the
application.

Perhaps, as the test piece was so small, I had wiped it too soon. I
tried again, leaving a minute or two before wiping, and wiping a little
less vigorously. That was better, I think, although I don't know if it
might cause problems down the road.

Standing there with the can open and a head full of curiosity, I decided
to apply some of the gel stain over a sample I had made with an
oil-based stain (a week ago). That color, even after wiping off, looked
very nice indeed.

Assuming it still looks nice when dry and with a couple of coats of
varnish, and assuming I have it in me to add yet another step to the
process, is that something that can be done? Gel stain over oil stain?
Or is there disaster lurking down the road? (Bad adhesion, etc.)

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On 8/30/2014 2:25 PM, Greg Guarino wrote:
Assuming it still looks nice when dry and with a couple of coats of
varnish, and assuming I have it in me to add yet another step to the
process, is that something that can be done? Gel stain over oil stain?
Or is there disaster lurking down the road? (Bad adhesion, etc.)

As long as they are both oil based stains, you like the look of the
combination, and you let the first stain coat dry before applying the
gel stain, you are good to go.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 8/30/2014 2:25 PM, Greg Guarino wrote:
In the second labor of Hercules, he was called on to slay the Hydra, a
creature with many heads. Each time he sliced off a head, two quickly
grew in its place.

I was somehow reminded of that as I opened the latest can of worms - uh
-- stain.

I bought a can of General Finishes "Candelite" gel stain today. The
fellow in the store went as far as to test it out on a piece of red oak
(ply) for me. That's what I call customer service, so if you're ever in
the Norwalk Ct. area, make sure to stop by the Woodworker's Club (a
Woodcraft affiliate).

I took it home and applied it to some of the red oak leftovers from my
current project, which - with the steady accumulation of test pieces -
I am quickly running out of. The color going on was very much like I had
hoped it would be, but became diluted when I wiped off the "excess" with
a clean rag. Following Leon's advice, I had done so right after the
application.

Perhaps, as the test piece was so small, I had wiped it too soon. I
tried again, leaving a minute or two before wiping, and wiping a little
less vigorously. That was better, I think, although I don't know if it
might cause problems down the road.

Standing there with the can open and a head full of curiosity, I decided
to apply some of the gel stain over a sample I had made with an
oil-based stain (a week ago). That color, even after wiping off, looked
very nice indeed.

Assuming it still looks nice when dry and with a couple of coats of
varnish, and assuming I have it in me to add yet another step to the
process, is that something that can be done? Gel stain over oil stain?
Or is there disaster lurking down the road? (Bad adhesion, etc.)

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Be sure to thoroughly stir the stain. This particular brand sorta has a
built in finish. If it is not properly stirred you may be melting it
down again so to speak. But for what it is worth, how did it act at the
store?

Now having said that I had the same issue with a Java color almost 4
years ago. I think it was old or they have changed the formula. If you
are wiping and actually removing the stain color when going over a
previously stained spot the stuff may be bad. Gel stains have always
given me great results except fot that can 4 years ago.

Typically after the first coat of stain has thoroughly dried you can re
apply for a darker finish. Also DON'T sand past 180, you don't want to
burnish the surface such that the stain will not properly adhere.

On 8/30/2014 3:41 PM, Leon wrote:
On 8/30/2014 2:25 PM, Greg Guarino wrote:
In the second labor of Hercules, he was called on to slay the Hydra, a
creature with many heads. Each time he sliced off a head, two quickly
grew in its place.

I was somehow reminded of that as I opened the latest can of worms - uh
-- stain.

I bought a can of General Finishes "Candelite" gel stain today. The
fellow in the store went as far as to test it out on a piece of red oak
(ply) for me. That's what I call customer service, so if you're ever in
the Norwalk Ct. area, make sure to stop by the Woodworker's Club (a
Woodcraft affiliate).

I took it home and applied it to some of the red oak leftovers from my
current project, which - with the steady accumulation of test pieces -
I am quickly running out of. The color going on was very much like I had
hoped it would be, but became diluted when I wiped off the "excess" with
a clean rag. Following Leon's advice, I had done so right after the
application.

Perhaps, as the test piece was so small, I had wiped it too soon. I
tried again, leaving a minute or two before wiping, and wiping a little
less vigorously. That was better, I think, although I don't know if it
might cause problems down the road.

Standing there with the can open and a head full of curiosity, I decided
to apply some of the gel stain over a sample I had made with an
oil-based stain (a week ago). That color, even after wiping off, looked
very nice indeed.

Assuming it still looks nice when dry and with a couple of coats of
varnish, and assuming I have it in me to add yet another step to the
process, is that something that can be done? Gel stain over oil stain?
Or is there disaster lurking down the road? (Bad adhesion, etc.)

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Be sure to thoroughly stir the stain. This particular brand sorta has a
built in finish. If it is not properly stirred you may be melting it
down again so to speak. But for what it is worth, how did it act at the
store?

Now having said that I had the same issue with a Java color almost 4
years ago. I think it was old or they have changed the formula. If you
are wiping and actually removing the stain color when going over a
previously stained spot the stuff may be bad. Gel stains have always
given me great results except fot that can 4 years ago.

Typically after the first coat of stain has thoroughly dried you can re
apply for a darker finish. Also DON'T sand past 180, you don't want to
burnish the surface such that the stain will not properly adhere.


One last thing, I only wipe hard enough immediately after application to
remove the excess and so that there are no blotches.

On Saturday, August 30, 2014 3:18:01 PM UTC-5, Swingman wrote:
On 8/30/2014 2:25 PM, Greg Guarino wrote:

Assuming it still looks nice when dry and with a couple of coats of

varnish, and assuming I have it in me to add yet another step to the

process, is that something that can be done? Gel stain over oil stain?

Or is there disaster lurking down the road? (Bad adhesion, etc.)



As long as they are both oil based stains, you like the look of the

combination, and you let the first stain coat dry before applying the

gel stain, you are good to go.

What Karl said.

To expand this a bit, when I was doing custom finishing and matching (remember when folks wanted to pay for that kind of thing?) I always had to use different methods and materials to get the look I wanted.

Someway, somewhere I had a client that had a piece of cabinetry he had build to match the style of his existing french walnut (real stuff, but veneer) book case. When you look at that type of walnut as opposed to our black walnut, the colors and patterns can be quite complex.

His project was made from birch ply with birch edging. I used an oak oil stain similar to "colonial oak" thinned to about 50%, applied and rubbed off immediately. Then added a brown coat of oil thinned as well, wiped off after checking my test piece several times to check color. Now it was looking good, but the tubular grain didn't show as it does in walnut. So over the two coats of oil, a super fast wipe of thinned Old Masters Dark Walnut gel to highlight the pores. It was a pretty good match, but nothing beats the real thing. The important thing was the owner was hugely pleased and when finished with a foam brush top coat of poly he was completely happy. The addition of the poly brought enough amber to the mix that it matched my test/submission piece and he never looked back.

Think of stains, gels, dyes, tints, and any other colorants as the components to get the color and appearance you want. After drying, most colorants are compatible, but the higher VOC stuff will pull off (as per Karl's post) the previous coloring in some cases.

AND GOOD FOR YOU FOR PRACTICING ON YOUR SCRAP!!!!

Robert

wrote

Think of stains, gels, dyes, tints, and any other colorants as the
components to get the color and appearance you want. After drying, most
colorants are compatible, but the higher VOC stuff will pull off (as per
Karl's post) the previous coloring in some cases.

AND GOOD FOR YOU FOR PRACTICING ON YOUR SCRAP!!!!

Strange, how the topics (stains) are sometimes so right in time with what
you are doing.

So, I partially made a bunk bed for my grandkids, back before I had my big
accident, well over a year ago, now. I finally got the energy to slowly so
the rest of the machining and put it together for finishing. It is made of
picked over framing grade 2x4's, planed down and sanded, and I wanted it to
match the color of the furniture in one of our bedrooms.

I had lost my color "sample sticks" sometime ago. I usually have a piece of
red oak, poplar, maple, white pine, yellow pine, birch plywood, and basswood
with a couple inches of each color of minwax stain on it, and clear coated
with poly. That way, I have some idea of what I need to match whatever I am
working on, or to show others so they can make a choice on stain colors. I
made up a new one out of the pine the bed was made of, with my 15 or so most
popular Minwax reference pints. None of them looked right.

So I started mixing, after a trip to the local big box for what I thought I
was most likely to use. I picked red mahogany, mixed with red oak. Not
quite right. Added in some Ipswich pine I had, and it got better. Still
not quite right. (as tested on my cutoffs of the material the bed was made
of) Added some English chestnut, then some golden oak, and I officially
declared it to be garbage can stain! I don't even remember what all went
in, so I was double sure to make enough that I would not run out, because
there is no way I could have matched it!

None the less, testing it on the stock the piece is made of, with what will
be used for the actual stain makes all of the difference.

It is coming together nicely for a semi temporary piece, and the boys are so
excited to sleep in it the first time, the poly can't dry fast enough to
suit them!

I'll try to get some pictures when it gets in its room. Not enough room in
my small shop for a picture.
--
Jim in NC


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On 8/30/2014 4:43 PM, Leon wrote:
Be sure to thoroughly stir the stain. This particular brand sorta has a
built in finish. If it is not properly stirred you may be melting it
down again so to speak. But for what it is worth, how did it act at the
store?

He applied it to a tiny area with a q-tip and rubbed it in some. Looked
OK, but he didn't wipe off.

Now having said that I had the same issue with a Java color almost 4
years ago. I think it was old or they have changed the formula. If you
are wiping and actually removing the stain color when going over a
previously stained spot the stuff may be bad.

It was wiping it down with a dry towel that removed some of the color.

Gel stains have always
given me great results except fot that can 4 years ago.

Typically after the first coat of stain has thoroughly dried you can re
apply for a darker finish. Also DON'T sand past 180, you don't want to
burnish the surface such that the stain will not properly adhere.

I sanded to 180. The can, by the way, says don't sand past 150.


One last thing, I only wipe hard enough immediately after application to
remove the excess and so that there are no blotches.

I wiped pretty hard, and pretty soon. A little later, and a little
lighter touch seemed to work better. The two stains layered together
produced the color I like the best. It's kind of a pain do an extra step
though.


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On 8/30/2014 10:26 PM, Greg Guarino wrote:
On 8/30/2014 4:43 PM, Leon wrote:
Be sure to thoroughly stir the stain. This particular brand sorta has a
built in finish. If it is not properly stirred you may be melting it
down again so to speak. But for what it is worth, how did it act at the
store?

He applied it to a tiny area with a q-tip and rubbed it in some. Looked
OK, but he didn't wipe off.

FWIW I don't know of any wiping stain application that you do not wipe
off the excess. As long as applying stain over an area that previously
was stained and wiped down does not actually remove stain back down to
almost bare wood. I was having that issue a few years ago.





Now having said that I had the same issue with a Java color almost 4
years ago. I think it was old or they have changed the formula. If you
are wiping and actually removing the stain color when going over a
previously stained spot the stuff may be bad.

It was wiping it down with a dry towel that removed some of the color.

Gel stains have always
given me great results except fot that can 4 years ago.

Typically after the first coat of stain has thoroughly dried you can re
apply for a darker finish. Also DON'T sand past 180, you don't want to
burnish the surface such that the stain will not properly adhere.

I sanded to 180. The can, by the way, says don't sand past 150.


One last thing, I only wipe hard enough immediately after application to
remove the excess and so that there are no blotches.

I wiped pretty hard, and pretty soon. A little later, and a little
lighter touch seemed to work better. The two stains layered together
produced the color I like the best. It's kind of a pain do an extra step
though.

Just wipe hard enough to remove the excess and blotches. The result
should be consistent and even coverage. if you wipe quickly enough
there is little effort involved. If you want darker, let it dry over
night and repeat the procedure.




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