A small but significant amount of time has just opened up in my
schedule. With any luck, I'll be able to devote some of it to my
slow-motion project.

I'll be staining it, but I am doing some of the assembly first. So I'm
worried about squeeze-out. The "ladder" sides are assembled, meaning,
just the stiles and rail "rungs". I intend to attach the stiles of the
front and rear frames to the "ladders" (with biscuits) before the final
assembly, such that the final assembly will look something like this:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguar...n/photostream/

I *had* intended to glue up the front and rear stiles to the "ladders"
*before* finishing, but I have now thought better of that idea,
principally because of the 3/16" - what's the proper term? Reveal?
Shadow line? - visible part of the front and rear stiles where they join
to the ladder stiles:

(you can see them in this drawing, on the left side)

https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguar...57644207411490

I figure any remaining squeeze-out in that tiny corner would be a bear
to sand out. Now I think I'll mask the area of the front and rear stiles
that will be glued to the side (ladder) stiles and prefinish.

So (finally) the question:

If I run a strip of tape that is wider than the area to be covered, then
use the ladder stile as a cutting template, I figure the masked area
will still be a smidgen too wide; I'd rather the finished area continue
under the edge of the joint a very small amount. To accomplish that, i
think I'll draw a fine pencil line with the template, then cut a little
inside of the line.

Good idea? Bad idea?


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On 8/20/2014 8:47 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
A small but significant amount of time has just opened up in my
schedule. With any luck, I'll be able to devote some of it to my
slow-motion project.

I'll be staining it, but I am doing some of the assembly first. So I'm
worried about squeeze-out. The "ladder" sides are assembled, meaning,
just the stiles and rail "rungs". I intend to attach the stiles of the
front and rear frames to the "ladders" (with biscuits) before the final
assembly, such that the final assembly will look something like this:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguar...n/photostream/

I *had* intended to glue up the front and rear stiles to the "ladders"
*before* finishing, but I have now thought better of that idea,
principally because of the 3/16" - what's the proper term? Reveal?
Shadow line? - visible part of the front and rear stiles where they join
to the ladder stiles:

(you can see them in this drawing, on the left side)

https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguar...57644207411490


I figure any remaining squeeze-out in that tiny corner would be a bear
to sand out. Now I think I'll mask the area of the front and rear stiles
that will be glued to the side (ladder) stiles and prefinish.

So (finally) the question:

If I run a strip of tape that is wider than the area to be covered, then
use the ladder stile as a cutting template, I figure the masked area
will still be a smidgen too wide; I'd rather the finished area continue
under the edge of the joint a very small amount. To accomplish that, i
think I'll draw a fine pencil line with the template, then cut a little
inside of the line.

Good idea? Bad idea?


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Things to consider. Glue in the holes of all those dowels should be
sufficient to hold this assembly together, just a bit that would insure
no squeeze out.

You can mask tape the area and exacto/utility knife out the sections
that you want to stain. You can also reduce the width of the masking
tape after laying the tape.

This is what I did here. This previously masked strip was masked with
3/4" tape but I trimmed one edge so that the masked area was
approximately 9/16" wide.

I put the piece that was going to mate in place and drew a line along
the joint line on both sides. I placed one edge of the tape inside the
line 1/16" on one side and then trimmed the other side back another 1/8".

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/14936428522/


Now having mentioned the masking part above. The stain and 3 coats of
hand rubbed varnish, and the removal of the tape left a noticeable step
between the finished surface and the wood surface. I am not positive
that the masked surface that did not receive a finish was a good union
between the mating furnaces. Ideally the surfaces should touch. I
depended on the dominos to provide most of the the strength.

In this case for you, I would simply put minimal glue in all of those
holes to minimize squeeze out and completely finish the mating surfaces.
You are not going to need a lot of glue strength in this scenario.

Just things to think about.

On 8/20/2014 8:47 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
If I run a strip of tape that is wider than the area to be covered, then
use the ladder stile as a cutting template, I figure the masked area
will still be a smidgen too wide; I'd rather the finished area continue
under the edge of the joint a very small amount.

Never got a clear understanding of whether you are pre-staining and
masking off the area that will have glue on it; or your masking off the
area that will be stained?

The former (pre-staing) is absolutely the best way to avoid not have the
problem with glue causing a problem with the finish.

If the latter, removing any tape, with or without a bit of glue on it,
from between two pieces of glue joined wood can be a royal PITA.

Might want to consider another method, like letting the glue set for
about 30 minutes and using a sharp chisel to remove it before it dries
completely.

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On 8/20/2014 9:28 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 8/20/2014 8:47 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
If I run a strip of tape that is wider than the area to be covered, then
use the ladder stile as a cutting template, I figure the masked area
will still be a smidgen too wide; I'd rather the finished area continue
under the edge of the joint a very small amount.

Never got a clear understanding of whether you are pre-staining and
masking off the area that will have glue on it; or your masking off the
area that will be stained?

The former (pre-staing) is absolutely the best way to avoid not have the
problem with glue causing a problem with the finish.

If the latter, removing any tape, with or without a bit of glue on it,
from between two pieces of glue joined wood can be a royal PITA.

Might want to consider another method, like letting the glue set for
about 30 minutes and using a sharp chisel to remove it before it dries
completely.



AND in these cases it makes sense to use a WHITE wood glue. It dries
clear in the event you miss a spot.

On 8/20/2014 10:24 AM, Leon wrote:
On 8/20/2014 8:47 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
A small but significant amount of time has just opened up in my
schedule. With any luck, I'll be able to devote some of it to my
slow-motion project.

I'll be staining it, but I am doing some of the assembly first. So
I'm worried about squeeze-out. The "ladder" sides are assembled,
meaning, just the stiles and rail "rungs". I intend to attach the
stiles of the front and rear frames to the "ladders" (with
biscuits) before the final assembly, such that the final assembly
will look something like this:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguar...n/photostream/


I *had* intended to glue up the front and rear stiles to the
"ladders" *before* finishing, but I have now thought better of that
idea, principally because of the 3/16" - what's the proper term?
Reveal? Shadow line? - visible part of the front and rear stiles
where they join to the ladder stiles:

(you can see them in this drawing, on the left side)

https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguar...57644207411490

I figure any remaining squeeze-out in that tiny corner would be a
bear to sand out. Now I think I'll mask the area of the front and
rear stiles that will be glued to the side (ladder) stiles and
prefinish.

So (finally) the question:

If I run a strip of tape that is wider than the area to be
covered, then use the ladder stile as a cutting template, I figure
the masked area will still be a smidgen too wide; I'd rather the
finished area continue under the edge of the joint a very small
amount. To accomplish that, i think I'll draw a fine pencil line
with the template, then cut a little inside of the line.

Good idea? Bad idea?


Things to consider. Glue in the holes of all those dowels should be
sufficient to hold this assembly together, just a bit that would
insure no squeeze out.

I have indeed used a lot of dowels on this project, but the two surfaces
in question will be joined with biscuits. I can't remember offhand, but
I think I made 6-7 slots over a 47" length.

You can mask tape the area and exacto/utility knife out the sections
that you want to stain. You can also reduce the width of the masking
tape after laying the tape.

That's what I had in mind.

This is what I did here. This previously masked strip was masked
with 3/4" tape but I trimmed one edge so that the masked area was
approximately 9/16" wide.

I had looked at your photo a week or so ago. I had it in mind when I was
thinking about what to do on my own project.

I put the piece that was going to mate in place and drew a line
along the joint line on both sides. I placed one edge of the tape
inside the line 1/16" on one side and then trimmed the other side
back another 1/8".

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/14936428522/


Now having mentioned the masking part above. The stain and 3 coats
of hand rubbed varnish, and the removal of the tape left a
noticeable step between the finished surface and the wood surface. I
am not positive that the masked surface that did not receive a finish
was a good union between the mating furnaces. Ideally the surfaces
should touch. I depended on the dominos to provide most of the the
strength.

I had not considered that the finish (likely stain plus several coats of
Watco Danish Oil) might build up the height at the edges. I have only
used Watco for test pieces so far; the build-up seems minmal. What do
you think?

In this case for you, I would simply put minimal glue in all of
those holes to minimize squeeze out and completely finish the mating
surfaces. You are not going to need a lot of glue strength in this
scenario.

And here, I suppose, we can begin the trench warfare that usually
accompanies the "do biscuits add strength?" question.

If you were stuck in a Festool-free area and were reduced to using
biscuits, would that affect your decision?


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On 8/20/2014 10:28 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 8/20/2014 8:47 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
If I run a strip of tape that is wider than the area to be covered, then
use the ladder stile as a cutting template, I figure the masked area
will still be a smidgen too wide; I'd rather the finished area continue
under the edge of the joint a very small amount.

Never got a clear understanding of whether you are pre-staining and
masking off the area that will have glue on it; or your masking off the
area that will be stained?

The former. I think I'd need to be awfully perfect with the tape line to
do it the other way.

The former (pre-staing) is absolutely the best way to avoid not have the
problem with glue causing a problem with the finish.

If the latter, removing any tape, with or without a bit of glue on it,
from between two pieces of glue joined wood can be a royal PITA.

Might want to consider another method, like letting the glue set for
about 30 minutes and using a sharp chisel to remove it before it dries
completely.

I have done that, but only with the "safety-net" of prefinished surfaces
to protect me. I worry that the line at the corner would still be
visible after staining.


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On 8/20/2014 10:31 AM, Leon wrote:

AND in these cases it makes sense to use a WHITE wood glue. It dries
clear in the event you miss a spot.

There's another thing I didn't know about. But in this case it's not
merely the color of the glue but also the glue's ability to resist the
stain that I'm worried about.

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Greg, I participate less and less these days in instructional areas unless it is with other professionals. I have found that most Google educated folks find their level of practical experience to be much more valid than my 40 years of trades work, so I have nothing to say of value. But... I get a charge out of you because you seem honest, sincere, ready to learn and improve, and are already on the road of being a great contributor. You are just a bit farther down the road (on the newer side!) than most of us here.

Enough of that.

You can put the frickin' biscuit discussion to rest he

http://www.woodworking.org/WC/GArchi...abstract1.html

(This is what happens when you let engineers have too much time to figure out a problem).

It concludes definitively that biscuits add strength in different kinds of joinery, and provides the data to back it up. It discusses the use of multiple biscuits, compares biscuits to tenons, etc. It discusses the use of biscuit on certain types of joints, concluding that it adds strength in just about all applications. In some cases it adds a great deal, in some cases not so much.

Aspects not discussed in the abstract are the importance of keeping your biscuits clean and dry, not using broken biscuits, and it only touches on gluing technique. All information readily available, so no mysteries there.

I used to have a great .pdf somewhere that was generated by an engineer's group to study the usefulness of the biscuit joint in modern furniture manufacturing techniques. It showed a great amount of comparative data that had a single tenon vs. two biscuits, then large tenons vs. three biscuits, and so on. (That is in the above linked abstract, too.) Interestingly, multiple biscuits are quite strong, and in woodworking they seem to be good enough.

One of the pitfalls of being self taught or starting the road of being a designing woodworker is "over engineering" your work. This is usually due to lack of practical instruction from a trusted source, lack of training, or lack of experience. As a professional that makes money with their woodworking efforts, time is money so the key is to make the project strong enough to do its duty, and build it well enough to last for years if that is the duty cycle you are after. As a home craftsman enjoying their weekend, it is easy to get caught up in all the hoopla about the joining techniques of the old craftsmen and then further discuss how well their efforts lasted.

When I was doing a lot of refinishing, I was surprised just how simple many joints were that I studied. Simple joints that provide plenty of glue surface (I was bowled over and delighted to see Karl's work included half lap joints, as I was embarrassed to tell him I did that!) that can be held together with a couple of 23 ga pins until dry hold up fine. Joints that were cleverly constructed to hide mechanical fasteners, etc. are great.

Read that abstract and you can see the value of multiple biscuits per joint when attaching edge to side grain wood. The other study that I had but cannot find included multiple biscuits in joints because they found the speed and accuracy of biscuit placement was quite good, along with its easy repeatability made multiple biscuits a good choice for a joining wood.

The abstract concludes with a bit of a tongue in cheek dissertation using a gorilla as a metaphor for all the guys that want to be able to stack anvils on their pine magazine rack they built for their bathroom...

Keep at it! You do some nice work, Greg.

Robert

On 8/20/2014 10:09 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
On 8/20/2014 10:24 AM, Leon wrote:
On 8/20/2014 8:47 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
A small but significant amount of time has just opened up in my
schedule. With any luck, I'll be able to devote some of it to my
slow-motion project.

I'll be staining it, but I am doing some of the assembly first. So
I'm worried about squeeze-out. The "ladder" sides are assembled,
meaning, just the stiles and rail "rungs". I intend to attach the
stiles of the front and rear frames to the "ladders" (with
biscuits) before the final assembly, such that the final assembly
will look something like this:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguar...n/photostream/


I *had* intended to glue up the front and rear stiles to the
"ladders" *before* finishing, but I have now thought better of that
idea, principally because of the 3/16" - what's the proper term?
Reveal? Shadow line? - visible part of the front and rear stiles
where they join to the ladder stiles:

(you can see them in this drawing, on the left side)

https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguar...57644207411490


I figure any remaining squeeze-out in that tiny corner would be a
bear to sand out. Now I think I'll mask the area of the front and
rear stiles that will be glued to the side (ladder) stiles and
prefinish.

So (finally) the question:

If I run a strip of tape that is wider than the area to be
covered, then use the ladder stile as a cutting template, I figure
the masked area will still be a smidgen too wide; I'd rather the
finished area continue under the edge of the joint a very small
amount. To accomplish that, i think I'll draw a fine pencil line
with the template, then cut a little inside of the line.

Good idea? Bad idea?


Things to consider. Glue in the holes of all those dowels should be
sufficient to hold this assembly together, just a bit that would
insure no squeeze out.

I have indeed used a lot of dowels on this project, but the two surfaces
in question will be joined with biscuits. I can't remember offhand, but
I think I made 6-7 slots over a 47" length.

You can mask tape the area and exacto/utility knife out the sections
that you want to stain. You can also reduce the width of the masking
tape after laying the tape.

That's what I had in mind.

This is what I did here. This previously masked strip was masked
with 3/4" tape but I trimmed one edge so that the masked area was
approximately 9/16" wide.

I had looked at your photo a week or so ago. I had it in mind when I was
thinking about what to do on my own project.

I put the piece that was going to mate in place and drew a line
along the joint line on both sides. I placed one edge of the tape
inside the line 1/16" on one side and then trimmed the other side
back another 1/8".

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/14936428522/


Now having mentioned the masking part above. The stain and 3 coats
of hand rubbed varnish, and the removal of the tape left a
noticeable step between the finished surface and the wood surface. I
am not positive that the masked surface that did not receive a finish
was a good union between the mating furnaces. Ideally the surfaces
should touch. I depended on the dominos to provide most of the the
strength.

I had not considered that the finish (likely stain plus several coats of
Watco Danish Oil) might build up the height at the edges. I have only
used Watco for test pieces so far; the build-up seems minmal. What do
you think?

I could certainly feel the line and I am sure that removing the tape
contributed to that. If you don't pull the tape when wet you will get
that build up at location. Trouble is you want to put down several
coats so you can't remove the tape before the first coat get rubbed.

You can also considering finishing the whole area and then masking what
you want to protect and sand the area to receive the glue.






In this case for you, I would simply put minimal glue in all of
those holes to minimize squeeze out and completely finish the mating
surfaces. You are not going to need a lot of glue strength in this
scenario.

And here, I suppose, we can begin the trench warfare that usually
accompanies the "do biscuits add strength?" question.

Biscuits do add strength but not so much as thicker dowels or
dominoes/floating tenons.




If you were stuck in a Festool-free area and were reduced to using
biscuits, would that affect your decision?

Yes, I certainly use enough glue. Try what I suggested above, finish
first, and sand off the area to receive the glue, use masking tape to
prevent sanding where you don't want to.







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On 8/20/2014 8:47 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:

If I run a strip of tape that is wider than the area to be covered, then
use the ladder stile as a cutting template, I figure the masked area
will still be a smidgen too wide; I'd rather the finished area continue
under the edge of the joint a very small amount. To accomplish that, i
think I'll draw a fine pencil line with the template, then cut a little
inside of the line.

Good idea? Bad idea?

Good idea.

Little different situation, but by using tape narrower than the
thickness of the stock, that is exactly what was done he

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...49440 2676418

Caveat: Be careful what you use to trim the tape with or you can easily
cut into the long grain with a sharp knife/razor blade.

I found the best way it just lay the knife/razor blade on the tape,
letting it hang over on one end, then pull up on the tape, pulling it
into the blade to cut it, instead of moving the blade. Less chance of
marring your wood that way.


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On 8/20/2014 10:09 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:

I have indeed used a lot of dowels on this project, but the two surfaces
in question will be joined with biscuits. I can't remember offhand, but
I think I made 6-7 slots over a 47" length.

If I'm looking at the right place, I see no problem with biscuits.
Basically long grain to long grain also, no?

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On 8/20/2014 1:59 PM, Swingman wrote:
I found the best way it just lay the knife/razor blade on the tape,
letting it hang over on one end, then pull up on the tape, pulling it
into the blade to cut it, instead of moving the blade. Less chance of
marring your wood that way.

This works very well to do the above:

http://www.plumbersurplus.com/Prod/S...28874/Cat/1014

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On 8/20/2014 2:59 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 8/20/2014 10:09 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:

I have indeed used a lot of dowels on this project, but the two surfaces
in question will be joined with biscuits. I can't remember offhand, but
I think I made 6-7 slots over a 47" length.

If I'm looking at the right place, I see no problem with biscuits.
Basically long grain to long grain also, no?

Yes. But Leon's advice was that "all those dowels" - had there been
dowels - would have held well enough even if the only glue was in the
holes. Thus, no squeeze-out.

But those joints will use biscuits rather than dowels. I have little
doubt that a 47" x 3/4" butt joint would have plenty of strength even
without the biscuits. What I don't know is if one can glue just the
biscuits and slots (thereby eliminating squeeze-out) and hope for a
strong joint. I suspect the answer (after the smoke clears and a truce
is declared) is closer to "no" than "yes".

I'm leaning toward masking the area as I first mentioned, but I'm always
happy to learn something new.

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On 8/20/2014 2:59 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 8/20/2014 8:47 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:

If I run a strip of tape that is wider than the area to be covered,
then use the ladder stile as a cutting template, I figure the
masked area will still be a smidgen too wide; I'd rather the
finished area continue under the edge of the joint a very small
amount. To accomplish that, i think I'll draw a fine pencil line
with the template, then cut a little inside of the line.

Good idea? Bad idea?

Good idea.

Little different situation, but by using tape narrower than the
thickness of the stock, that is exactly what was done he

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...49440 2676418



Caveat: Be careful what you use to trim the tape with or you can
easily cut into the long grain with a sharp knife/razor blade.

In this case the cuts would be covered by the other piece once they are
glued together, but thanks for the tip.

I found the best way it just lay the knife/razor blade on the tape,
letting it hang over on one end, then pull up on the tape, pulling it
into the blade to cut it, instead of moving the blade. Less chance
of marring your wood that way.

I have several of those scrapers, but I don't think I would have thought
to use them for that task.

I was admiring those bar stools again. Could I ask you what kind of
stain you used?


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Greg Guarino wrote:

But those joints will use biscuits rather than dowels.
What I don't know is if one can glue just the biscuits and slots
(thereby eliminating squeeze-out) and hope for a strong joint.
I suspect the answer (after the smoke clears and a truce is
declared) is closer to "no" than "yes".

Considering the task, and the design, both which appear to favor insuring
adequate sheer strength, I would try to get all the glued surface area I
could get, so the answer would be "no", IMO.

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On 8/20/2014 1:34 PM, wrote:
Greg, I participate less and less these days in instructional areas
unless it is with other professionals. I have found that most Google
educated folks find their level of practical experience to be much
more valid than my 40 years of trades work, so I have nothing to say
of value. But... I get a charge out of you because you seem honest,
sincere, ready to learn and improve, and are already on the road of
being a great contributor. You are just a bit farther down the road
(on the newer side!) than most of us here.

It's not as if I don't sometimes decide to "do it my way" despite the
advice I get here. Of course, there is frequently a wide band of
variation in the advice, so it's sometimes necessary to cobble together
what seems best according to my own intuition.

Having said that, I figure that a smart guy appreciates how much he
doesn't know, and takes advantage of the fact that other people have
taken on the task of making most of the mistakes already. Learning from
*other people's* mistakes saves time, materials and possibly bits of flesh.

Enough of that.

You can put the frickin' biscuit discussion to rest he

http://www.woodworking.org/WC/GArchi...abstract1.html

snip
I skimmed it. Interesting.

One of the pitfalls of being self taught or starting the road of
being a designing woodworker is "over engineering" your work.

That's me all over, or at least until my current project. I have told my
wife and daughter that in case of earthquake, hide under one of my
projects. This project is much more "spindly", but still plenty
strong, I'm sure.

This is
usually due to lack of practical instruction from a trusted source,
lack of training, or lack of experience. As a professional that
makes money with their woodworking efforts, time is money so the key
is to make the project strong enough to do its duty, and build it
well enough to last for years if that is the duty cycle you are
after. As a home craftsman enjoying their weekend, it is easy to get
caught up in all the hoopla about the joining techniques of the old
craftsmen and then further discuss how well their efforts lasted.

What sparked this discussion of biscuit joint strength was Leon's
comment that I could avoid squeeze-out problems by only putting glue in
the dowel holes. I replied that these joints would use biscuits instead,
thus I would probably need to apply glue to the mating surfaces as well.
While a relative novice, I've done enough gluing to trust an edge grain
butt joint 47" x 3/4" even without the biscuits. I'm using the biscuits
as much to make lining up the parts easier during glue-up (always the
most stressful step for me) as for strength.

When I was doing a lot of refinishing, I was surprised just how
simple many joints were that I studied. Simple joints that provide
plenty of glue surface (I was bowled over and delighted to see Karl's
work included half lap joints, as I was embarrassed to tell him I did
that!) that can be held together with a couple of 23 ga pins until
dry hold up fine. Joints that were cleverly constructed to hide
mechanical fasteners, etc. are great.

Read that abstract and you can see the value of multiple biscuits per
joint when attaching edge to side grain wood. The other study that I
had but cannot find included multiple biscuits in joints because they
found the speed and accuracy of biscuit placement was quite good,
along with its easy repeatability made multiple biscuits a good
choice for a joining wood.

I had not thought of using biscuits side by side. Interesting. Surely
not necessary in my current application, but interesting.

The abstract concludes with a bit of a tongue in cheek dissertation
using a gorilla as a metaphor for all the guys that want to be able
to stack anvils on their pine magazine rack they built for their
bathroom...

I believe I saw a Stumpy Nubs video in which he refers to guys who want
to fill their drawers with rocks and chains and then yank them open
abruptly.

Keep at it! You do some nice work, Greg.

Thanks for the encouragement. If I manage to get these shelf units
finished, I may give myself a battlefield promotion from Kindergarten
right up to third-grade.



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