I am making a set of drawers with half blind dovetails using my Rockler
Dovetail jig. This jig is incredibly difficult to set up to get perfect
dovetails. OTOH I don't make a ton of drawers so maybe I should just suck it
up. I would value the opinions of members of this group as always.

Dick Snyder

On 1/29/2014 12:13 PM, Dick Snyder wrote:
I am making a set of drawers with half blind dovetails using my Rockler
Dovetail jig. This jig is incredibly difficult to set up to get perfect
dovetails. OTOH I don't make a ton of drawers so maybe I should just suck it
up. I would value the opinions of members of this group as always.

Dick Snyder



That's probably because most of those jigs are in fact very difficult to
setup. The key problem is the height of the bit. Or the offset from
side to side.
The offset from side to side is easy to work with. Just make the sides a
little larger and plane or saw down accurately after they are joined.
Put a knife mark from the front to the sides and cut to that mark.

I handcut dovetails rather than deal with it.
But if I had production work to do I would not hesitate to spend the
time setting up a jig. Half blinds are much harder both with a jig and
by hand than through cut DTs.

--
Jeff

On 1/29/2014 11:13 AM, Dick Snyder wrote:
OTOH I don't make a ton of drawers so maybe I should just suck it
up. I would value the opinions of members of this group as always.

I often have to make a "ton of drawers", have both the Leigh DR4 and the
Akeda 16DC, and both are equally finicky, although the Akeda a bit less
so than the Leigh.

I have learned to deal with the fact that router based dovetail jigs are
problematic at best, but for productions runs, they are absolutely
necessary for a small shop.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 1/29/2014 11:13 AM, Dick Snyder wrote:
I am making a set of drawers with half blind dovetails using my Rockler
Dovetail jig. This jig is incredibly difficult to set up to get perfect
dovetails. OTOH I don't make a ton of drawers so maybe I should just suck it
up. I would value the opinions of members of this group as always.

Dick Snyder



Way back in 1980 I bought a Craftsman DT jig. It really worked quite
well and IIRC had darn few instructions but I do recall it mentioning to
start on scraps and start with a particular bit depth and adjust from
that point. IIRC I paid about $40 for the jig.

The point here is that Blind dovetails are incredibly simple. BUT you
have to have every thing set up precisely and the bit cutting depth of
both sides of the mating pieces is the same.

Be certain that you are using a good quality and exact size guide
bushing that the jig calls for. If you can center the base/bushing to
the bit, do that before making any cuts. This can save you a lot of
heart ache.

If not remember to never clock or turn the router during the cutting
operation. If the bit is not perfectly centered in the guide bushing
and you even slightly rotate the router during the cutting operation
some of the pins and tails will be a bit larger and or smaller than
others. When you are rotating the router and the bit is not centered in
the guide bushing you are cutting off center and rotating the router
will change the cutting location even more.



Typically you mount a vertical board in the front of the jig a bit lower
than the top of the pin board. You set the end of the pin board up
against the back side of that vertical board and then lower the template
down on to the top pin board.

The template must set flat on top of the pin board, no exceptions. This
mandates that the board also be flat.

Next, the vertical tail board must be flushed up to the bottom of the
template. Be careful not to push up too much and bow the template.
Remember the template must sit flat on top of the pin board.

Once you have this all correctly in place you begin your trial cuts.

Make your cuts and remove the boards.

Is the fit too tight? Raise the bit a touch, cut shallower.
Is the fit too lose? Lower the bit a touch, cut deeper.
Does one end fit differently than the other end of the joint? Your wood
and jig set up is wrong.

Get new scraps and test again. DO NOT reuse the same ends that were
previously cut.

Each DT bit tends to have it's own sweet spot as to how deep it should
be used at. When you are finished with the operation you can either
leave that bit in the router, ;~) or measure the height setting before
removing that bit so that the trial by error fit will be less trouble
the next time.

On 1/29/2014 11:56 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 1/29/2014 11:13 AM, Dick Snyder wrote:
OTOH I don't make a ton of drawers so maybe I should just suck it
up. I would value the opinions of members of this group as always.

I often have to make a "ton of drawers", have both the Leigh DR4 and the
Akeda 16DC, and both are equally finicky, although the Akeda a bit less
so than the Leigh.

I have learned to deal with the fact that router based dovetail jigs are
problematic at best, but for productions runs, they are absolutely
necessary for a small shop.



And because of all the things that have to be just right I have really
started to like using box joints over the DT's. Especially with the
Incra iBox box joint jig on the TS, joints are a breeze compared to the
DT jig.

On 1/29/2014 1:37 PM, Leon wrote:
On 1/29/2014 11:13 AM, Dick Snyder wrote:
I am making a set of drawers with half blind dovetails using my Rockler
Dovetail jig. This jig is incredibly difficult to set up to get perfect
dovetails. OTOH I don't make a ton of drawers so maybe I should just
suck it
up. I would value the opinions of members of this group as always.

Dick Snyder



Way back in 1980 I bought a Craftsman DT jig. It really worked quite
well and IIRC had darn few instructions but I do recall it mentioning to
start on scraps and start with a particular bit depth and adjust from
that point. IIRC I paid about $40 for the jig.

The point here is that Blind dovetails are incredibly simple. BUT you
have to have every thing set up precisely and the bit cutting depth of
both sides of the mating pieces is the same.

Be certain that you are using a good quality and exact size guide
bushing that the jig calls for. If you can center the base/bushing to
the bit, do that before making any cuts. This can save you a lot of
heart ache.

If not remember to never clock or turn the router during the cutting
operation. If the bit is not perfectly centered in the guide bushing
and you even slightly rotate the router during the cutting operation
some of the pins and tails will be a bit larger and or smaller than
others. When you are rotating the router and the bit is not centered in
the guide bushing you are cutting off center and rotating the router
will change the cutting location even more.



Typically you mount a vertical board in the front of the jig a bit lower
than the top of the pin board. You set the end of the pin board up
against the back side of that vertical board and then lower the template
down on to the top pin board.

The template must set flat on top of the pin board, no exceptions. This
mandates that the board also be flat.

Next, the vertical tail board must be flushed up to the bottom of the
template. Be careful not to push up too much and bow the template.
Remember the template must sit flat on top of the pin board.

Once you have this all correctly in place you begin your trial cuts.

Make your cuts and remove the boards.

Is the fit too tight? Raise the bit a touch, cut shallower.
Is the fit too lose? Lower the bit a touch, cut deeper.
Does one end fit differently than the other end of the joint? Your wood
and jig set up is wrong.

Get new scraps and test again. DO NOT reuse the same ends that were
previously cut.

Each DT bit tends to have it's own sweet spot as to how deep it should
be used at. When you are finished with the operation you can either
leave that bit in the router, ;~) or measure the height setting before
removing that bit so that the trial by error fit will be less trouble
the next time.


Most people don't have a dedicated router to leave a DT bit in. Unless
you are a production shop. I do leave a 1/8 inch round over in one of my
routers.

But like Leon said you should mark it. The best way is to rout a new
board as a depth gauge, just put it in the jig.
Then mark this board as the gospel.

But you still need to work out the offsets.
Still don't know which issue is your problem, the router bit heights or
offset..



--
Jeff

"Dick Snyder" wrote:

I am making a set of drawers with half blind dovetails using my
Rockler Dovetail jig. This jig is incredibly difficult to set up to
get perfect dovetails. OTOH I don't make a ton of drawers so maybe I
should just suck it up. I would value the opinions of members of this
group as always.

---------------------------------------------------
Time to talk to "Routerman", AKA: Pat Barber.

He offers a router base plate that allows you to center the bit and
guide
bushing concentrically which will make life a lot easier.

Lew

"Leon" lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in message
...
On 1/29/2014 11:13 AM, Dick Snyder wrote:
I am making a set of drawers with half blind dovetails using my Rockler
Dovetail jig. This jig is incredibly difficult to set up to get perfect
dovetails. OTOH I don't make a ton of drawers so maybe I should just suck
it
up. I would value the opinions of members of this group as always.

Dick Snyder



Way back in 1980 I bought a Craftsman DT jig. It really worked quite well
and IIRC had darn few instructions but I do recall it mentioning to start
on scraps and start with a particular bit depth and adjust from that
point. IIRC I paid about $40 for the jig.

The point here is that Blind dovetails are incredibly simple. BUT you
have to have every thing set up precisely and the bit cutting depth of
both sides of the mating pieces is the same.

Be certain that you are using a good quality and exact size guide bushing
that the jig calls for. If you can center the base/bushing to the bit, do
that before making any cuts. This can save you a lot of heart ache.

If not remember to never clock or turn the router during the cutting
operation. If the bit is not perfectly centered in the guide bushing and
you even slightly rotate the router during the cutting operation some of
the pins and tails will be a bit larger and or smaller than others. When
you are rotating the router and the bit is not centered in the guide
bushing you are cutting off center and rotating the router will change the
cutting location even more.



Typically you mount a vertical board in the front of the jig a bit lower
than the top of the pin board. You set the end of the pin board up
against the back side of that vertical board and then lower the template
down on to the top pin board.

The template must set flat on top of the pin board, no exceptions. This
mandates that the board also be flat.

Next, the vertical tail board must be flushed up to the bottom of the
template. Be careful not to push up too much and bow the template.
Remember the template must sit flat on top of the pin board.

Once you have this all correctly in place you begin your trial cuts.

Make your cuts and remove the boards.

Is the fit too tight? Raise the bit a touch, cut shallower.
Is the fit too lose? Lower the bit a touch, cut deeper.
Does one end fit differently than the other end of the joint? Your wood
and jig set up is wrong.

Get new scraps and test again. DO NOT reuse the same ends that were
previously cut.

Each DT bit tends to have it's own sweet spot as to how deep it should be
used at. When you are finished with the operation you can either leave
that bit in the router, ;~) or measure the height setting before removing
that bit so that the trial by error fit will be less trouble the next
time.

Hi Leon,

Everything you say matches my experience with the Rockler Dovetail jig. The
problem is that making adjustments can be a total pain in the rear. For
example, there is a fence that determines how far your router will go in to
the grooves or sockets on the board that is lying flat. Each end of the
fence has to be tightened down separately with a screw and handle and it is
a BEAR to get the fence to be exactly parallel to the template. I need many
measurements with a digital caliper to get it exact.

I guess the message for me is "suck it up. The setup process is a pain in
the butt"

"woodchucker" wrote in message
...
On 1/29/2014 1:37 PM, Leon wrote:
On 1/29/2014 11:13 AM, Dick Snyder wrote:
I am making a set of drawers with half blind dovetails using my Rockler
Dovetail jig. This jig is incredibly difficult to set up to get perfect
dovetails. OTOH I don't make a ton of drawers so maybe I should just
suck it
up. I would value the opinions of members of this group as always.

Dick Snyder



Way back in 1980 I bought a Craftsman DT jig. It really worked quite
well and IIRC had darn few instructions but I do recall it mentioning to
start on scraps and start with a particular bit depth and adjust from
that point. IIRC I paid about $40 for the jig.

The point here is that Blind dovetails are incredibly simple. BUT you
have to have every thing set up precisely and the bit cutting depth of
both sides of the mating pieces is the same.

Be certain that you are using a good quality and exact size guide
bushing that the jig calls for. If you can center the base/bushing to
the bit, do that before making any cuts. This can save you a lot of
heart ache.

If not remember to never clock or turn the router during the cutting
operation. If the bit is not perfectly centered in the guide bushing
and you even slightly rotate the router during the cutting operation
some of the pins and tails will be a bit larger and or smaller than
others. When you are rotating the router and the bit is not centered in
the guide bushing you are cutting off center and rotating the router
will change the cutting location even more.



Typically you mount a vertical board in the front of the jig a bit lower
than the top of the pin board. You set the end of the pin board up
against the back side of that vertical board and then lower the template
down on to the top pin board.

The template must set flat on top of the pin board, no exceptions. This
mandates that the board also be flat.

Next, the vertical tail board must be flushed up to the bottom of the
template. Be careful not to push up too much and bow the template.
Remember the template must sit flat on top of the pin board.

Once you have this all correctly in place you begin your trial cuts.

Make your cuts and remove the boards.

Is the fit too tight? Raise the bit a touch, cut shallower.
Is the fit too lose? Lower the bit a touch, cut deeper.
Does one end fit differently than the other end of the joint? Your wood
and jig set up is wrong.

Get new scraps and test again. DO NOT reuse the same ends that were
previously cut.

Each DT bit tends to have it's own sweet spot as to how deep it should
be used at. When you are finished with the operation you can either
leave that bit in the router, ;~) or measure the height setting before
removing that bit so that the trial by error fit will be less trouble
the next time.


Most people don't have a dedicated router to leave a DT bit in. Unless you
are a production shop. I do leave a 1/8 inch round over in one of my
routers.

But like Leon said you should mark it. The best way is to rout a new board
as a depth gauge, just put it in the jig.
Then mark this board as the gospel.

But you still need to work out the offsets.
Still don't know which issue is your problem, the router bit heights or
offset..



--
Jeff
I have made a depth gauge just as you mentioned above so that getting the
router bit to the right depth is fairly easy. It is the adjustments to the
jig which are really time consuming and frustrating. I just put up a reply
to Leon to give you one example.

Dick

On 1/29/2014 1:49 PM, Dick Snyder wrote:

"Leon" lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in message
...
On 1/29/2014 11:13 AM, Dick Snyder wrote:
I am making a set of drawers with half blind dovetails using my Rockler
Dovetail jig. This jig is incredibly difficult to set up to get perfect
dovetails. OTOH I don't make a ton of drawers so maybe I should just suck
it
up. I would value the opinions of members of this group as always.

Dick Snyder



Way back in 1980 I bought a Craftsman DT jig. It really worked quite well
and IIRC had darn few instructions but I do recall it mentioning to start
on scraps and start with a particular bit depth and adjust from that
point. IIRC I paid about $40 for the jig.

The point here is that Blind dovetails are incredibly simple. BUT you
have to have every thing set up precisely and the bit cutting depth of
both sides of the mating pieces is the same.

Be certain that you are using a good quality and exact size guide bushing
that the jig calls for. If you can center the base/bushing to the bit, do
that before making any cuts. This can save you a lot of heart ache.

If not remember to never clock or turn the router during the cutting
operation. If the bit is not perfectly centered in the guide bushing and
you even slightly rotate the router during the cutting operation some of
the pins and tails will be a bit larger and or smaller than others. When
you are rotating the router and the bit is not centered in the guide
bushing you are cutting off center and rotating the router will change the
cutting location even more.



Typically you mount a vertical board in the front of the jig a bit lower
than the top of the pin board. You set the end of the pin board up
against the back side of that vertical board and then lower the template
down on to the top pin board.

The template must set flat on top of the pin board, no exceptions. This
mandates that the board also be flat.

Next, the vertical tail board must be flushed up to the bottom of the
template. Be careful not to push up too much and bow the template.
Remember the template must sit flat on top of the pin board.

Once you have this all correctly in place you begin your trial cuts.

Make your cuts and remove the boards.

Is the fit too tight? Raise the bit a touch, cut shallower.
Is the fit too lose? Lower the bit a touch, cut deeper.
Does one end fit differently than the other end of the joint? Your wood
and jig set up is wrong.

Get new scraps and test again. DO NOT reuse the same ends that were
previously cut.

Each DT bit tends to have it's own sweet spot as to how deep it should be
used at. When you are finished with the operation you can either leave
that bit in the router, ;~) or measure the height setting before removing
that bit so that the trial by error fit will be less trouble the next
time.

Hi Leon,

Everything you say matches my experience with the Rockler Dovetail jig. The
problem is that making adjustments can be a total pain in the rear. For
example, there is a fence that determines how far your router will go in to
the grooves or sockets on the board that is lying flat. Each end of the
fence has to be tightened down separately with a screw and handle and it is
a BEAR to get the fence to be exactly parallel to the template. I need many
measurements with a digital caliper to get it exact.

I guess the message for me is "suck it up. The setup process is a pain in
the butt"


I think I see the jig on Rockler's web site. That jig with the fence
introduces yet another adjustment. If the base on your router is not
round and or centered too, clocking it will cause you to cut too deep or
shallow too. Typically the bottoms of the fingers on the template
dictate the depth of cut front to back, that is.

"Leon" lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in message
...
On 1/29/2014 1:49 PM, Dick Snyder wrote:

"Leon" lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in message
...
On 1/29/2014 11:13 AM, Dick Snyder wrote:
I am making a set of drawers with half blind dovetails using my Rockler
Dovetail jig. This jig is incredibly difficult to set up to get perfect
dovetails. OTOH I don't make a ton of drawers so maybe I should just
suck
it
up. I would value the opinions of members of this group as always.

Dick Snyder



Way back in 1980 I bought a Craftsman DT jig. It really worked quite
well
and IIRC had darn few instructions but I do recall it mentioning to
start
on scraps and start with a particular bit depth and adjust from that
point. IIRC I paid about $40 for the jig.

The point here is that Blind dovetails are incredibly simple. BUT you
have to have every thing set up precisely and the bit cutting depth of
both sides of the mating pieces is the same.

Be certain that you are using a good quality and exact size guide
bushing
that the jig calls for. If you can center the base/bushing to the bit,
do
that before making any cuts. This can save you a lot of heart ache.

If not remember to never clock or turn the router during the cutting
operation. If the bit is not perfectly centered in the guide bushing
and
you even slightly rotate the router during the cutting operation some of
the pins and tails will be a bit larger and or smaller than others.
When
you are rotating the router and the bit is not centered in the guide
bushing you are cutting off center and rotating the router will change
the
cutting location even more.



Typically you mount a vertical board in the front of the jig a bit lower
than the top of the pin board. You set the end of the pin board up
against the back side of that vertical board and then lower the template
down on to the top pin board.

The template must set flat on top of the pin board, no exceptions. This
mandates that the board also be flat.

Next, the vertical tail board must be flushed up to the bottom of the
template. Be careful not to push up too much and bow the template.
Remember the template must sit flat on top of the pin board.

Once you have this all correctly in place you begin your trial cuts.

Make your cuts and remove the boards.

Is the fit too tight? Raise the bit a touch, cut shallower.
Is the fit too lose? Lower the bit a touch, cut deeper.
Does one end fit differently than the other end of the joint? Your wood
and jig set up is wrong.

Get new scraps and test again. DO NOT reuse the same ends that were
previously cut.

Each DT bit tends to have it's own sweet spot as to how deep it should
be
used at. When you are finished with the operation you can either leave
that bit in the router, ;~) or measure the height setting before
removing
that bit so that the trial by error fit will be less trouble the next
time.

Hi Leon,

Everything you say matches my experience with the Rockler Dovetail jig.
The
problem is that making adjustments can be a total pain in the rear. For
example, there is a fence that determines how far your router will go in
to
the grooves or sockets on the board that is lying flat. Each end of the
fence has to be tightened down separately with a screw and handle and it
is
a BEAR to get the fence to be exactly parallel to the template. I need
many
measurements with a digital caliper to get it exact.

I guess the message for me is "suck it up. The setup process is a pain in
the butt"


I think I see the jig on Rockler's web site. That jig with the fence
introduces yet another adjustment. If the base on your router is not
round and or centered too, clocking it will cause you to cut too deep or
shallow too. Typically the bottoms of the fingers on the template dictate
the depth of cut front to back, that is.

You are right. There are other weak spots too that I won't go into. If I
was doing a lot of drawers I would probably shop around for a better jig but
not in my case I think.

On 1/29/2014 2:26 PM, Dick Snyder wrote:

"Leon" lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in message
...
On 1/29/2014 1:49 PM, Dick Snyder wrote:

"Leon" lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in message
...
On 1/29/2014 11:13 AM, Dick Snyder wrote:
I am making a set of drawers with half blind dovetails using my Rockler
Dovetail jig. This jig is incredibly difficult to set up to get perfect
dovetails. OTOH I don't make a ton of drawers so maybe I should just
suck
it
up. I would value the opinions of members of this group as always.

Dick Snyder



Way back in 1980 I bought a Craftsman DT jig. It really worked quite
well
and IIRC had darn few instructions but I do recall it mentioning to
start
on scraps and start with a particular bit depth and adjust from that
point. IIRC I paid about $40 for the jig.

The point here is that Blind dovetails are incredibly simple. BUT you
have to have every thing set up precisely and the bit cutting depth of
both sides of the mating pieces is the same.

Be certain that you are using a good quality and exact size guide
bushing
that the jig calls for. If you can center the base/bushing to the bit,
do
that before making any cuts. This can save you a lot of heart ache.

If not remember to never clock or turn the router during the cutting
operation. If the bit is not perfectly centered in the guide bushing
and
you even slightly rotate the router during the cutting operation some of
the pins and tails will be a bit larger and or smaller than others.
When
you are rotating the router and the bit is not centered in the guide
bushing you are cutting off center and rotating the router will change
the
cutting location even more.



Typically you mount a vertical board in the front of the jig a bit lower
than the top of the pin board. You set the end of the pin board up
against the back side of that vertical board and then lower the template
down on to the top pin board.

The template must set flat on top of the pin board, no exceptions. This
mandates that the board also be flat.

Next, the vertical tail board must be flushed up to the bottom of the
template. Be careful not to push up too much and bow the template.
Remember the template must sit flat on top of the pin board.

Once you have this all correctly in place you begin your trial cuts.

Make your cuts and remove the boards.

Is the fit too tight? Raise the bit a touch, cut shallower.
Is the fit too lose? Lower the bit a touch, cut deeper.
Does one end fit differently than the other end of the joint? Your wood
and jig set up is wrong.

Get new scraps and test again. DO NOT reuse the same ends that were
previously cut.

Each DT bit tends to have it's own sweet spot as to how deep it should
be
used at. When you are finished with the operation you can either leave
that bit in the router, ;~) or measure the height setting before
removing
that bit so that the trial by error fit will be less trouble the next
time.

Hi Leon,

Everything you say matches my experience with the Rockler Dovetail jig.
The
problem is that making adjustments can be a total pain in the rear. For
example, there is a fence that determines how far your router will go in
to
the grooves or sockets on the board that is lying flat. Each end of the
fence has to be tightened down separately with a screw and handle and it
is
a BEAR to get the fence to be exactly parallel to the template. I need
many
measurements with a digital caliper to get it exact.

I guess the message for me is "suck it up. The setup process is a pain in
the butt"


I think I see the jig on Rockler's web site. That jig with the fence
introduces yet another adjustment. If the base on your router is not
round and or centered too, clocking it will cause you to cut too deep or
shallow too. Typically the bottoms of the fingers on the template dictate
the depth of cut front to back, that is.

You are right. There are other weak spots too that I won't go into. If I
was doing a lot of drawers I would probably shop around for a better jig but
not in my case I think.



As I mentioned as a follow up to Swingman, Incra makes the iBox jig.
Well thought out and works on a TS or router table. Less complicated to
set up and box joints are not terrible to look at. ;~)

On 1/29/2014 9:13 AM, Dick Snyder wrote:
I am making a set of drawers with half blind dovetails using my Rockler
Dovetail jig. This jig is incredibly difficult to set up to get perfect
dovetails. OTOH I don't make a ton of drawers so maybe I should just suck it
up. I would value the opinions of members of this group as always.

Dick Snyder



Welcome to the "pain-in-the-ass" club. I think I currently own "about"
3 dovetail jigs.

I bought a PC "el-cheapo" about 15 years ago.... poor - fair results.
I bought a PC Omnijig about 10 years ago. Same as above.
My wife bought me a PC 4210 jig about 5 years ago... more of the same.

That subject has been beat to death here for years with varying results.

My current plan is to spend a month or two and learn how to make a
"perfect" locking rabbet and sell all those dovetail jigs at a flea
market.

On 1/29/2014 11:13 AM, Lew Hodgett wrote:

---------------------------------------------------
Time to talk to "Routerman", AKA: Pat Barber.

He offers a router base plate that allows you to center the bit and
guide
bushing concentrically which will make life a lot easier.

Lew


Nope....Pat Warner

Not me....see my other post on dovetail jigs.

On 1/29/2014 5:55 PM, Pat Barber wrote:
My current plan is to spend a month or two and learn how to make a
"perfect" locking rabbet and sell all those dovetail jigs at a flea
market.

Except for the most treasured projects (those I consider may gain
heirloom status in my immediate family some day), I have taken to using
locking rabbet joints for drawers when 'eating my own dog food', as well
as for those projects where the client doesn't want to spring for
dovetail joints.

I make them on the table saw, and (like any other project), as long as
your stock is consistently flat and square, they are quite useable
joints that can be made and assembled very quickly.

AAMOF, I went to the trouble of making a short SketchUp video and put it
on youtube, more to refresh my own memory on the steps as I get older
than for any other reason.

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Lew Hodgett wrote:

---------------------------------------------------
Time to talk to "Routerman", AKA: Pat Barber.

He offers a router base plate that allows you to center the bit and
guide
bushing concentrically which will make life a lot easier.
---------------------------------------------------
"Pat Barber" wrote:

Nope....Pat Warner

Not me....see my other post on dovetail jigs.
-------------------------------------------------
Saw your other post.

I built some drawers using the Jet jig and had to be very careful
to maintain registration since the guide bushing was not concentric
with cutter.

Still had other problems which I was able to resolve to produce
acceptable results.

As I remember, glad I don't have to making a living producing
dovetails.

Clearly the source of errors consists of router end play of the router
shaft, variation of stock thickness, the profile of the cutter which
affects
depth of cut and the concentric registration between bit and guide
bushing.

While your plate doesn't solve all the sources of error,
seems like it should make life a lot easier, if you insure concentric
registration between bit and bushing.

What am I missing?

Lew

On 1/29/2014 11:37 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
Lew Hodgett wrote:

---------------------------------------------------
Time to talk to "Routerman", AKA: Pat Barber.

He offers a router base plate that allows you to center the bit and
guide
bushing concentrically which will make life a lot easier.
---------------------------------------------------
"Pat Barber" wrote:

Nope....Pat Warner

Not me....see my other post on dovetail jigs.
-------------------------------------------------
Saw your other post.

I built some drawers using the Jet jig and had to be very careful
to maintain registration since the guide bushing was not concentric
with cutter.

Still had other problems which I was able to resolve to produce
acceptable results.

As I remember, glad I don't have to making a living producing
dovetails.

Clearly the source of errors consists of router end play of the router
shaft, variation of stock thickness, the profile of the cutter which
affects
depth of cut and the concentric registration between bit and guide
bushing.

While your plate doesn't solve all the sources of error,
seems like it should make life a lot easier, if you insure concentric
registration between bit and bushing.

Easy enough there are many centering bits on the market.
Do not buy the woodline centering, it's useless. The pc collar that came
with it did not fit any of my routers it was way undersized. And it
requires you to use 1/4" collet. Others use 1/2 and 1/4 flip style shafts.


What am I missing?

Lew












--
Jeff

On 1/29/2014 4:29 PM, Swingman wrote:

AAMOF, I went to the trouble of making a short SketchUp video and put it
on youtube, more to refresh my own memory on the steps as I get older
than for any other reason.


Good job Karl...

That is a good little seminar...

I just can't fight these god awful jigs any more.

I may keep one just to do box joints and
thru dovetails but the hell with half dovetails.

On 1/30/2014 10:13 AM, Pat Barber wrote:
On 1/29/2014 4:29 PM, Swingman wrote:

AAMOF, I went to the trouble of making a short SketchUp video and put it
on youtube, more to refresh my own memory on the steps as I get older
than for any other reason.


Good job Karl...

That is a good little seminar...

I just can't fight these god awful jigs any more.

I may keep one just to do box joints and
thru dovetails but the hell with half dovetails.


Well if it is any consolation of all the type DT and box type joints,
the Blind DT's are the most finicky.

On Wednesday, January 29, 2014 6:29:21 PM UTC-6, Swingman wrote:

Except for the most treasured projects (those I consider may gain

heirloom status in my immediate family some day), I have taken to using

locking rabbet joints for drawers when 'eating my own dog food', as well

as for those projects where the client doesn't want to spring for

dovetail joints.



I make them on the table saw, and (like any other project), as long as

your stock is consistently flat and square, they are quite useable

joints that can be made and assembled very quickly.

I remember my delight when I saw the drawers in the formal dining room's buffet. I expected... well... I don't know what I expected but I didn't expect to see the drawers rabbeted together. I have been using that joint for years, but was a little embarrassed by it since it seems everyone "knocks out" their full and half blind dovetails perfectly in unlimited numbers on an as needed basis. I was pleased as punch to see a professional of your caliber use that joint.

I started using that when we were building cabinets on the job back in the 70s as that was the way I was shown/trained. We had a table saw on the job that did everything we needed if we were working out of town, if not, the guy I worked for had a wood shop in the back of his warehouse where we would build.

Rabbets were easy on the tablesaw. And at that time half lap doors were the rage as folks wanted that smooth look, so no panel type doors. For a fancy job, we would put beading in a frame pattern inside the perimeter of the door face, painstakingly cut on a monstrous hand powered miter saw.

I tried out a giant 24" Rockwell jig that a cabinet shop had and loved it. I waited a couple years after I opened my biz and bought the 12" and never could get the half blind joints to be completely repeatable without a lot of fuss. No doubt 1/4 shank steel bits, and smaller routers had something to do with it. So, after watching a guy at a woodworking show (remember those?) make rabbet joints with his router, a light bulb went on and I started doing that again. This time I made the joints with a router, not a table saw.

So drawers became a no brainer. I used a router bit to groove the drawer face, sides and back for its plywood bottom, a router bit to cut a rabbet into the rear of the drawer to inset the back, and a the router again to cut he locking rabbet on the face. Now the table saw could stay back at the shop! I took the properly width dimensioned wood/plywood with me to the job and I could set up on site and work there. If it was one of my jobs as a GC, then this was outstanding as I could work on site and keep an eye on the job at the same time.

I even used that joint in a sets of super heavy duty drawers that were going to be carrying about 50+ pounds of stuff in them at all times. Think of pan drawers carrying the cast iron dutch oven, Pyrex, cast iron skillets, etc., or all the hammers and crap in a garage shop. The pounds add up fast.

And to add to add 500% strength to that joint is easy. 30 mintue epoxy and few 18 ga. brads and it is unbreakable. Literally. For the record I have never seen one of my locking rabbets fail when it was just glued with white glue (go back to the 70s when we used Elmer's White CONSTRUCTION grade glue!)or any kind of yellow glue with no mechanical fasteners. The oldest one in use is that I know of is about 37 years old!

I like a good dovetail myself and appreciate what goes into them whether they are hand cut or machined. But since I don't do any of it for fun anymore I go for speed, dash and accuracy.

Karl - looked for the video and couldn't find it. Could you post a link?

Thanks.

Robert

On 1/30/2014 1:12 PM, wrote:

And to add to add 500% strength to that joint is easy. 30 mintue epoxy and few 18 ga. brads and it is unbreakable. Literally. For the record I have never seen one of my locking rabbets fail when it was just glued with white glue (go back to the 70s when we used Elmer's White CONSTRUCTION grade glue!)or any kind of yellow glue with no mechanical fasteners. The oldest one in use is that I know of is about 37 years old!


I've never had one fail either; and for a decorative touch, and in lieu
of a brad for more strength, I've used 1/8" copper rod, or a contrasting
wood, to pin them with.

I like a good dovetail myself and appreciate what goes into them whether they are hand cut or machined. But since I don't do any of it for fun anymore I go for speed, dash and accuracy.


Bingo!

Karl - looked for the video and couldn't find it. Could you post a link?

Here you go. Not much to it ... just a rough screen capture/SU version
of the steps, in the correct order.

Often in the past didn't do a locking rabbet drawers enough to trust my
memory on my preferred order on the TS since the last time I did a
batch. Basically just wanted something I could use to refresh my memory,
or explain to someone else, away from the shop using a smart phone or iPad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1w7iQFW4hq8


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"Pat Barber" wrote in message
...
On 1/29/2014 9:13 AM, Dick Snyder wrote:
I am making a set of drawers with half blind dovetails using my Rockler
Dovetail jig. This jig is incredibly difficult to set up to get perfect
dovetails. OTOH I don't make a ton of drawers so maybe I should just suck
it
up. I would value the opinions of members of this group as always.

Dick Snyder



Welcome to the "pain-in-the-ass" club. I think I currently own "about"
3 dovetail jigs.

I bought a PC "el-cheapo" about 15 years ago.... poor - fair results.
I bought a PC Omnijig about 10 years ago. Same as above.
My wife bought me a PC 4210 jig about 5 years ago... more of the same.

That subject has been beat to death here for years with varying results.

My current plan is to spend a month or two and learn how to make a
"perfect" locking rabbet and sell all those dovetail jigs at a flea
market.

Pat,

I happened to learn to my dismay today that Rockler has replaced the jig I
have (it is blue if you happen to know it) with a new an improved model but
they no longer have any spare parts for the old jig. Since the old jig was
kind of shakey in a couple of areas I may be in the market for a new
dovetail jig at somepoint anyway. I saw your reference to the PC 4210. I had
thought that when I need to get a new jig I would get that one (4212
actually as you can do half blind and full dove tails with that one). I
would be interested in knowing why you don't like that one. BTW, I am the
original poster of this topic.

Dick Snyder

"Swingman" wrote in message
...
On 1/30/2014 1:12 PM, wrote:

And to add to add 500% strength to that joint is easy. 30 mintue epoxy
and few 18 ga. brads and it is unbreakable. Literally. For the record I
have never seen one of my locking rabbets fail when it was just glued
with white glue (go back to the 70s when we used Elmer's White
CONSTRUCTION grade glue!)or any kind of yellow glue with no mechanical
fasteners. The oldest one in use is that I know of is about 37 years
old!


I've never had one fail either; and for a decorative touch, and in lieu of
a brad for more strength, I've used 1/8" copper rod, or a contrasting
wood, to pin them with.

I like a good dovetail myself and appreciate what goes into them whether
they are hand cut or machined. But since I don't do any of it for fun
anymore I go for speed, dash and accuracy.


Bingo!

Karl - looked for the video and couldn't find it. Could you post a link?

Here you go. Not much to it ... just a rough screen capture/SU version of
the steps, in the correct order.

Often in the past didn't do a locking rabbet drawers enough to trust my
memory on my preferred order on the TS since the last time I did a batch.
Basically just wanted something I could use to refresh my memory, or
explain to someone else, away from the shop using a smart phone or iPad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1w7iQFW4hq8


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KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

Very nice. I book marked that video on my woodworking "how to do it" stuff.
Thank you for posting it.

On 1/30/2014 2:09 PM, Dick Snyder wrote:

Pat,

I happened to learn to my dismay today that Rockler has replaced the jig I
have (it is blue if you happen to know it) with a new an improved model but
they no longer have any spare parts for the old jig. Since the old jig was
kind of shakey in a couple of areas I may be in the market for a new
dovetail jig at somepoint anyway. I saw your reference to the PC 4210. I had
thought that when I need to get a new jig I would get that one (4212
actually as you can do half blind and full dove tails with that one). I
would be interested in knowing why you don't like that one. BTW, I am the
original poster of this topic.


I think mine is the 4212. It's a very nice jig.....BUT
When I got mine, I followed the instructions to the letter
and could not get a half blind dovetail to save my rear end.

I spent an entire Saturday chewing up plywood and gave up on
that and went to 3/4" white pine. I planed that down to 1/2"
and had perfectly flat and square material.

I "finally" got a "fair"
joint but not what I would call perfect.

I made a visit to my tool vendor and told them my story.

They laughed and told me that the bit provided by PC was
out of spec and I needed to buy a real bit made by Freud
to get the "perfect" results.

They did get better but the jig required a LOT more setting
up to get the desired results.

It's just not worth it to me to have to fight my own tools
to get the results I want. I stick with the locking rabbet
for the future.

I can always do thru dovetails if I really want to go to
the trouble.

Your results may be entirely different.

On 1/30/2014 10:51 AM, Leon wrote:

Well if it is any consolation of all the type DT and box type joints,
the Blind DT's are the most finicky.

Yep...I agree and all of my DT jigs were at least consistent in
producing the same poor joints.

They are one of the few tools I have bought in the last 20 years
that I was very disappointed in.

No more fighting....I'll switch.

On 1/31/2014 5:25 PM, Pat Barber wrote:
On 1/30/2014 2:09 PM, Dick Snyder wrote:

Pat,

I happened to learn to my dismay today that Rockler has replaced the
jig I
have (it is blue if you happen to know it) with a new an improved
model but
they no longer have any spare parts for the old jig. Since the old jig
was
kind of shakey in a couple of areas I may be in the market for a new
dovetail jig at somepoint anyway. I saw your reference to the PC 4210.
I had
thought that when I need to get a new jig I would get that one (4212
actually as you can do half blind and full dove tails with that one). I
would be interested in knowing why you don't like that one. BTW, I am
the
original poster of this topic.


I think mine is the 4212. It's a very nice jig.....BUT
When I got mine, I followed the instructions to the letter
and could not get a half blind dovetail to save my rear end.

I spent an entire Saturday chewing up plywood and gave up on
that and went to 3/4" white pine. I planed that down to 1/2"
and had perfectly flat and square material.

I "finally" got a "fair"
joint but not what I would call perfect.

I made a visit to my tool vendor and told them my story.

They laughed and told me that the bit provided by PC was
out of spec and I needed to buy a real bit made by Freud
to get the "perfect" results.

They did get better but the jig required a LOT more setting
up to get the desired results.

It's just not worth it to me to have to fight my own tools
to get the results I want. I stick with the locking rabbet
for the future.

I can always do thru dovetails if I really want to go to
the trouble.

Your results may be entirely different.





I cant imagine a bit being out of spec unless it wobbled so much that it
would not make consistent cuts. Assuming we are still talking half
blind DT's.

Dick ...

There is a new post on a Leigh 24 inch dovetail jig at Sawmill Creek classifieds forum.

Larry

"Pat Barber" wrote in message
...
On 1/30/2014 2:09 PM, Dick Snyder wrote:

Pat,

I happened to learn to my dismay today that Rockler has replaced the jig
I
have (it is blue if you happen to know it) with a new an improved model
but
they no longer have any spare parts for the old jig. Since the old jig
was
kind of shakey in a couple of areas I may be in the market for a new
dovetail jig at somepoint anyway. I saw your reference to the PC 4210. I
had
thought that when I need to get a new jig I would get that one (4212
actually as you can do half blind and full dove tails with that one). I
would be interested in knowing why you don't like that one. BTW, I am
the
original poster of this topic.


I think mine is the 4212. It's a very nice jig.....BUT
When I got mine, I followed the instructions to the letter
and could not get a half blind dovetail to save my rear end.

I spent an entire Saturday chewing up plywood and gave up on
that and went to 3/4" white pine. I planed that down to 1/2"
and had perfectly flat and square material.

I "finally" got a "fair"
joint but not what I would call perfect.

I made a visit to my tool vendor and told them my story.

They laughed and told me that the bit provided by PC was
out of spec and I needed to buy a real bit made by Freud
to get the "perfect" results.

They did get better but the jig required a LOT more setting
up to get the desired results.

It's just not worth it to me to have to fight my own tools
to get the results I want. I stick with the locking rabbet
for the future.

I can always do thru dovetails if I really want to go to
the trouble.

Your results may be entirely different.
Thanks for the detailed reply Pat. I know the Leigh jig is supposed to be
the best but it is too much money for my taste. Thanks again too for posting
the sketchup video of your process for making the locking rabbet joints. 12
years ago before I started doing any woodworking I had a professional
cabinet maker do a builtin for our new house. The locking rabbet joint is
what he used. I have always wondered how he got that perfect fit. Now I
know.

Dick

On 2/1/2014 8:18 AM, Dick Snyder wrote:
"Pat Barber" wrote in message
...
On 1/30/2014 2:09 PM, Dick Snyder wrote:

Pat,

I happened to learn to my dismay today that Rockler has replaced the jig
I
have (it is blue if you happen to know it) with a new an improved model
but
they no longer have any spare parts for the old jig. Since the old jig
was
kind of shakey in a couple of areas I may be in the market for a new
dovetail jig at somepoint anyway. I saw your reference to the PC 4210. I
had
thought that when I need to get a new jig I would get that one (4212
actually as you can do half blind and full dove tails with that one). I
would be interested in knowing why you don't like that one. BTW, I am
the
original poster of this topic.


I think mine is the 4212. It's a very nice jig.....BUT
When I got mine, I followed the instructions to the letter
and could not get a half blind dovetail to save my rear end.

I spent an entire Saturday chewing up plywood and gave up on
that and went to 3/4" white pine. I planed that down to 1/2"
and had perfectly flat and square material.

I "finally" got a "fair"
joint but not what I would call perfect.

I made a visit to my tool vendor and told them my story.

They laughed and told me that the bit provided by PC was
out of spec and I needed to buy a real bit made by Freud
to get the "perfect" results.

They did get better but the jig required a LOT more setting
up to get the desired results.

It's just not worth it to me to have to fight my own tools
to get the results I want. I stick with the locking rabbet
for the future.

I can always do thru dovetails if I really want to go to
the trouble.

Your results may be entirely different.
Thanks for the detailed reply Pat. I know the Leigh jig is supposed to be
the best but it is too much money for my taste. Thanks again too for posting
the sketchup video of your process for making the locking rabbet joints. 12
years ago before I started doing any woodworking I had a professional
cabinet maker do a builtin for our new house. The locking rabbet joint is
what he used. I have always wondered how he got that perfect fit. Now I
know.

If I had to chose between my Leigh D4 and my Akeda DC16, I believe I
would take the Akeda for half blind dovetails for the consistency
between the _first and last part cut_.

What always bothered me about the Leigh is that about half way through a
production run of say 40 drawer sides with half blinds dovetail, the fit
would start to suffer. No matter how consistent and careful you were in
using the router, somehow, somewhere, the carefully aligned setup would
go South enough to throw the fit off.

That does not engender confidence in your equipment when running
carefully dimensioned, expensive stock through the process.

And, the Akeda is a tad bit easier to setup, although the documentation
is not nearly as illuminating as the Leigh's instruction manual.

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...6 03582674306

Start and scroll to the right the next three photos (that is if Google,
in their infinite wisdom in knowing better than I want I want to
accomplish, doesn't redirect you to a Miley Cyrus twerk).

Biggest problem with the Akeda is, and last time I checked, that the
company for all practical purposes has gone out of business, although
you could/can still buy needed parts.

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KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 1/31/2014 7:43 PM, Leon wrote:


I cant imagine a bit being out of spec unless it wobbled so much that it
would not make consistent cuts. Assuming we are still talking half
blind DT's.

The problem was the bit was .0002 off in size and that greatly affected
the end result. That's what you get using cheaply produced bits from
China. PC later switched suppliers and the problem went away.

I suspect my jig just had the bad luck of getting one of the bad
bits.

I contacted PC about the problem and they sent me 2 new bits but
never mentioned the fact about wrong sized bits being a issue.

I was finally able to produce half blind dovetails but with a
great deal of "readjusting"....

On 2/1/2014 6:54 AM, Swingman wrote:

as the Leigh's instruction manual.

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...6 03582674306


Start and scroll to the right the next three photos (that is if Google,
in their infinite wisdom in knowing better than I want I want to
accomplish, doesn't redirect you to a Miley Cyrus twerk).

Biggest problem with the Akeda is, and last time I checked, that the
company for all practical purposes has gone out of business, although
you could/can still buy needed parts.

Those were good looking drawers.

It's a shame Akeda didn't just sell the rights to the product to another
company like PC so they could continue on. Another great idea bites the
dust.

On 2/1/2014 11:18 AM, Pat Barber wrote:

Those were good looking drawers.

It's a shame Akeda didn't just sell the rights to the product to another
company like PC so they could continue on. Another great idea bites the
dust.

Thanks.

And, speaking of dust, another thing I like about the Akeda ... that
photo was taken during routing ... note the absence of dust.

Hooked up to the Festool C22E, you can hardly tell you've cut a set of
dovetails _with a router_.


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On 2/1/2014 11:12 AM, Pat Barber wrote:
On 1/31/2014 7:43 PM, Leon wrote:


I cant imagine a bit being out of spec unless it wobbled so much that it
would not make consistent cuts. Assuming we are still talking half
blind DT's.

The problem was the bit was .0002 off in size and that greatly affected
the end result. That's what you get using cheaply produced bits from
China. PC later switched suppliers and the problem went away.

I suspect my jig just had the bad luck of getting one of the bad
bits.

I contacted PC about the problem and they sent me 2 new bits but
never mentioned the fact about wrong sized bits being a issue.

I was finally able to produce half blind dovetails but with a
great deal of "readjusting"....





I'm not going to doubt that you had bit problems, I have heard the same
else where.

BUT I would suspect that every bit manufactured would be out by at least
by two ten thousandths.

I suspect that in addition to the bit there has to be another problem as
you indicated that a replacement bit did not totally solve the problem.

Either way, I'm with you, blind DT's are a PIA.

On 2/1/2014 12:18 PM, Pat Barber wrote:
On 2/1/2014 6:54 AM, Swingman wrote:

as the Leigh's instruction manual.

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...6 03582674306



Start and scroll to the right the next three photos (that is if Google,
in their infinite wisdom in knowing better than I want I want to
accomplish, doesn't redirect you to a Miley Cyrus twerk).

Biggest problem with the Akeda is, and last time I checked, that the
company for all practical purposes has gone out of business, although
you could/can still buy needed parts.

Those were good looking drawers.

It's a shame Akeda didn't just sell the rights to the product to another
company like PC so they could continue on. Another great idea bites the
dust.



Selling the rights does not guarantee continuation.
I have watched many companies buy the rights to produce, and then can
the product. They just want to eliminate the competition. Smart or
asshole companies whichever way you think about it, try to negotiate a
royalty, because they know they will not produce it. Then they get it
for practically nothing. A company wanting to sell has to include a
guarantee in there contract that the company markets and produces it to
a certain level to protect their interests or not do the royalty type of
contract.

--
Jeff

replying to Dick Snyder , Matt Mangels wrote:
REMOVEdicksnyder wrote:

"Pat Barber" wrote in message
...
Pat,
I happened to learn to my dismay today that Rockler has replaced the jig I

have (it is blue if you happen to know it) with a new an improved model
but
they no longer have any spare parts for the old jig. Since the old jig was

kind of shakey in a couple of areas I may be in the market for a new
dovetail jig at somepoint anyway. I saw your reference to the PC 4210. I
had

thought that when I need to get a new jig I would get that one (4212
actually as you can do half blind and full dove tails with that one). I
would be interested in knowing why you don't like that one. BTW, I am the

original poster of this topic.
Dick Snyder



I think I acquired the same blue jig off someone from Craig's list a
couple years back. I'm still very much a rookie but practicing as much as
I can. I've spent a lot of time working with this jig, but unfortunately
it didn't come with a manual. I looked online but am only able to find
instructions for the grey model which seems to have a different
scale/setup than the blue one. Most problematic, I can't find any
definitive advice on where to set the template fingers so I know I'll get
the proper cut depth without a lot of trial and error. The adjustment I'm
referring to is the two bolts on the very back of the machine that let you
slide the plastic template forward and back. Also having problems keeping
the template parallel to the work piece. Do you happen to have any setup
instructions or advice on that? Thanks!


--