After one full year of operation, here's the results of going solar for
my house.

Total electricity expense 2011 = $1767.36
Total electricity expense 2012 = $1315.32 (includes $93/mo solar lease
and $65 refund for excess power generated in 2012)

Savings $452.04

The above totals include taxes and fees of ~$19/mo.





--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill

On Wed, 26 Dec 2012 07:16:29 -0700, Doug Winterburn
Savings $452.04

The above totals include taxes and fees of ~$19/mo.

However, you need to include other expenses and savings to get a total
picture.

All that money you invested in going solar, what kind of interest
potential would you have gained if it was invested elsewhere?

What did it cost to install that solar or get it hooked up onto the
grid? That's also possible investment money.

Things are as cut and dried as some would like to believe.

On 12/26/2012 07:32 AM, Dave wrote:
On Wed, 26 Dec 2012 07:16:29 -0700, Doug Winterburn
Savings $452.04

The above totals include taxes and fees of ~$19/mo.

However, you need to include other expenses and savings to get a total
picture.

All that money you invested in going solar, what kind of interest
potential would you have gained if it was invested elsewhere?

What did it cost to install that solar or get it hooked up onto the
grid? That's also possible investment money.

Things are as cut and dried as some would like to believe.


It's a 20 year lease, so I didn't pay anything for the system. I did
pay $1800 to eliminate a 3% annual increase on the lease, but that was
optional. I could have paid $9000 to eliminate lease payments
altogether or I could have paid $17,000 to purchase the system without
any maintenance provisions. The lease includes any and all installation
and maintenance costs. As it stands, I should recover my initial cost
in four years. and then be doing even better as my utility provider
rates have been going up at a fairly rapid rate.

Very cut and dried.


--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill

On 12/26/2012 8:16 AM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
After one full year of operation, here's the results of going solar for
my house.

Total electricity expense 2011 = $1767.36
Total electricity expense 2012 = $1315.32 (includes $93/mo solar lease
and $65 refund for excess power generated in 2012)

Savings $452.04

The above totals include taxes and fees of ~$19/mo.






Doug good to hear your set up is working out for you. Seems the lease
is the way to go especially since they are responsible for keeping the
system going.

I am curious though, how big is your house, do you use gas also?

My home is pretty new, 2 years old and uses electricity and gas. My
electricity cost for 2012 was $1432.00. 2 story just at 2,287 sq ft,
approximately 1,700 down and 600 up. 15732 kWh usage.

On 12/26/2012 9:16 AM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
After one full year of operation, here's the results of going solar for
my house.

Total electricity expense 2011 = $1767.36
Total electricity expense 2012 = $1315.32 (includes $93/mo solar lease
and $65 refund for excess power generated in 2012)

Savings $452.04

The above totals include taxes and fees of ~$19/mo.


To compare the to figure you need to provide additional information to
get a good comparison. Others have mentioned the return on investment.
19/month is not very high depending on the cost per year of unit or
rent. How much did it cost to modify the existing heating unit for the
solar.


Second and most important is a comparison of the heating/cooling
requirements for the two winters. I believe if you check there is a
parameter called Degree/Days. It is used by the energy providing
companies to estimate the amount of inventories they will need.

http://www.degreedays.net/
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/document...y/hcs/hcs.html

While I am not sure how it is calculated, the Degree days estimates the
amount of energy to provide the heat or cooling need to maintain an
ambient temperature. Sort of like the area under the daily temperature
curve.

So comparing the degree day for one year to that of the previous day
would give you a better comparison.

If the total degree days 2011 was 5000 and in 2012 was 4000, then your
cost save may not be significant as it took 20% less energy to heat the
house in 2012 as it did in 2012.

On 12/26/2012 08:57 AM, Leon wrote:
On 12/26/2012 8:16 AM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
After one full year of operation, here's the results of going solar for
my house.

Total electricity expense 2011 = $1767.36
Total electricity expense 2012 = $1315.32 (includes $93/mo solar lease
and $65 refund for excess power generated in 2012)

Savings $452.04

The above totals include taxes and fees of ~$19/mo.






Doug good to hear your set up is working out for you. Seems the lease
is the way to go especially since they are responsible for keeping the
system going.

I am curious though, how big is your house, do you use gas also?

My home is pretty new, 2 years old and uses electricity and gas. My
electricity cost for 2012 was $1432.00. 2 story just at 2,287 sq ft,
approximately 1,700 down and 600 up. 15732 kWh usage.

The house is 19 years old and 1858 sq. ft. on one level. Yes we do use
gas for hot water and the BBQ and gas fireplace. House is plumbed for
gas clothes dryer and stove, but those are currently electric.

Had 11968 kWh/year or about 1000kWh average/month.

We are in the AZ desert, so most usage is for AC.

I did put in about 95% CFLs.

The company does cover Texas:
https://www.solarcity.com/states/tx/texas.aspx


--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill

On 12/26/2012 09:14 AM, Keith Nuttle wrote:
On 12/26/2012 9:16 AM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
After one full year of operation, here's the results of going solar for
my house.

Total electricity expense 2011 = $1767.36
Total electricity expense 2012 = $1315.32 (includes $93/mo solar lease
and $65 refund for excess power generated in 2012)

Savings $452.04

The above totals include taxes and fees of ~$19/mo.


To compare the to figure you need to provide additional information to
get a good comparison. Others have mentioned the return on investment.
19/month is not very high depending on the cost per year of unit or
rent. How much did it cost to modify the existing heating unit for the
solar.


Second and most important is a comparison of the heating/cooling
requirements for the two winters. I believe if you check there is a
parameter called Degree/Days. It is used by the energy providing
companies to estimate the amount of inventories they will need.

http://www.degreedays.net/
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/document...y/hcs/hcs.html

While I am not sure how it is calculated, the Degree days estimates the
amount of energy to provide the heat or cooling need to maintain an
ambient temperature. Sort of like the area under the daily temperature
curve.

So comparing the degree day for one year to that of the previous day
would give you a better comparison.

If the total degree days 2011 was 5000 and in 2012 was 4000, then your
cost save may not be significant as it took 20% less energy to heat the
house in 2012 as it did in 2012.

The $19/month is just for electric utility company taxes and fees. The
lease is $93/month.

There is no modification of the heating unit as this is solar electric
and is grid tied. I also use gas for heat. I'm in the AZ desert, so my
major electric usage is AC.

All I know is I am generating more kWh than I use and it is costing me
less than before the system was installed.


--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill

On 12/26/2012 10:37 AM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
On 12/26/2012 09:14 AM, Keith Nuttle wrote:
On 12/26/2012 9:16 AM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
After one full year of operation, here's the results of going solar for
my house.

Total electricity expense 2011 = $1767.36
Total electricity expense 2012 = $1315.32 (includes $93/mo solar lease
and $65 refund for excess power generated in 2012)

Savings $452.04

The above totals include taxes and fees of ~$19/mo.


To compare the to figure you need to provide additional information to
get a good comparison. Others have mentioned the return on investment.
19/month is not very high depending on the cost per year of unit or
rent. How much did it cost to modify the existing heating unit for the
solar.


Second and most important is a comparison of the heating/cooling
requirements for the two winters. I believe if you check there is a
parameter called Degree/Days. It is used by the energy providing
companies to estimate the amount of inventories they will need.

http://www.degreedays.net/
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/document...y/hcs/hcs.html

While I am not sure how it is calculated, the Degree days estimates the
amount of energy to provide the heat or cooling need to maintain an
ambient temperature. Sort of like the area under the daily temperature
curve.

So comparing the degree day for one year to that of the previous day
would give you a better comparison.

If the total degree days 2011 was 5000 and in 2012 was 4000, then your
cost save may not be significant as it took 20% less energy to heat the
house in 2012 as it did in 2012.

The $19/month is just for electric utility company taxes and fees. The
lease is $93/month.

There is no modification of the heating unit as this is solar electric
and is grid tied. I also use gas for heat. I'm in the AZ desert, so my
major electric usage is AC.

All I know is I am generating more kWh than I use and it is costing me
less than before the system was installed.

What provision was/is made in the event of a power failure in the
neighborhood? Is there an automatic switch that prevents you from
energizing the neighborhood should the power company fail to deliver power?

On 12/26/12 10:37 AM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
The $19/month is just for electric utility company taxes and fees. The
lease is $93/month.


Interesting that the electric co is still allowed to charge tax and fees
on "nothing."
You are, in fact, selling them electricity, so they should be paying the
taxes and fees.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 12/26/2012 10:09 AM, Leon wrote:
On 12/26/2012 10:37 AM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
On 12/26/2012 09:14 AM, Keith Nuttle wrote:
On 12/26/2012 9:16 AM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
After one full year of operation, here's the results of going solar for
my house.

Total electricity expense 2011 = $1767.36
Total electricity expense 2012 = $1315.32 (includes $93/mo solar lease
and $65 refund for excess power generated in 2012)

Savings $452.04

The above totals include taxes and fees of ~$19/mo.


To compare the to figure you need to provide additional information to
get a good comparison. Others have mentioned the return on investment.
19/month is not very high depending on the cost per year of unit or
rent. How much did it cost to modify the existing heating unit for the
solar.


Second and most important is a comparison of the heating/cooling
requirements for the two winters. I believe if you check there is a
parameter called Degree/Days. It is used by the energy providing
companies to estimate the amount of inventories they will need.

http://www.degreedays.net/
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/document...y/hcs/hcs.html

While I am not sure how it is calculated, the Degree days estimates the
amount of energy to provide the heat or cooling need to maintain an
ambient temperature. Sort of like the area under the daily temperature
curve.

So comparing the degree day for one year to that of the previous day
would give you a better comparison.

If the total degree days 2011 was 5000 and in 2012 was 4000, then your
cost save may not be significant as it took 20% less energy to heat the
house in 2012 as it did in 2012.

The $19/month is just for electric utility company taxes and fees. The
lease is $93/month.

There is no modification of the heating unit as this is solar electric
and is grid tied. I also use gas for heat. I'm in the AZ desert, so my
major electric usage is AC.

All I know is I am generating more kWh than I use and it is costing me
less than before the system was installed.

What provision was/is made in the event of a power failure in the
neighborhood? Is there an automatic switch that prevents you from
energizing the neighborhood should the power company fail to deliver power?


Yes, that is a requirement of the utility company. When the inverter
doesn't see utility power, it shuts down. Wouldn't want any linemen
getting zapped!


--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill

On 12/26/2012 11:15 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 12/26/12 10:37 AM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
The $19/month is just for electric utility company taxes and fees. The
lease is $93/month.


Interesting that the electric co is still allowed to charge tax and fees
on "nothing."
You are, in fact, selling them electricity, so they should be paying the
taxes and fees.

It's still _their_ grid he's hooked up to...

--

On 12/26/2012 10:37 AM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
....

All I know is I am generating more kWh than I use and it is costing me
less than before the system was installed.

And, of course, you're in AZ so that's a likely outcome.

What's missing in the overall cost data is the federal/state subsidies
that the supplier/utility receive that allow for your end rate to be
what it is. If you were paying "full retail" it wouldn't come close...

--

On 12/26/12 12:46 PM, dpb wrote:
On 12/26/2012 11:15 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 12/26/12 10:37 AM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
The $19/month is just for electric utility company taxes and fees. The
lease is $93/month.


Interesting that the electric co is still allowed to charge tax and fees
on "nothing."
You are, in fact, selling them electricity, so they should be paying the
taxes and fees.

It's still _their_ grid he's hooked up to...


Fees I get. Taxes should be zero.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 12/26/2012 1:00 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 12/26/12 12:46 PM, dpb wrote:
On 12/26/2012 11:15 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 12/26/12 10:37 AM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
The $19/month is just for electric utility company taxes and fees. The
lease is $93/month.


Interesting that the electric co is still allowed to charge tax and fees
on "nothing."
You are, in fact, selling them electricity, so they should be paying the
taxes and fees.

It's still _their_ grid he's hooked up to...


Fees I get. Taxes should be zero.

a) We don't know what taxes those are...
b) I expect while his net annual generation may be positive it's not
every month during the year.

So, insufficient information...besides, it's dealing w/ mandates/law so
there's nothing that says it has to make sense, anyway.

--

On 12/26/2012 11:48 AM, dpb wrote:
On 12/26/2012 10:37 AM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
...

All I know is I am generating more kWh than I use and it is costing me
less than before the system was installed.

And, of course, you're in AZ so that's a likely outcome.

What's missing in the overall cost data is the federal/state subsidies
that the supplier/utility receive that allow for your end rate to be
what it is. If you were paying "full retail" it wouldn't come close...

--

I do know the federal subsidy is considerable and has been that way for
quite a few years. Also, the feds are requiring the utility companies
to have a percentage of their capacity in renewables or pay fines.

As close as I can figure the subsidies is the purchase cost of ~$17k (in
which case I'd get the tax credits) and the lease full payout which in
looking at the paperwork would be $9.6k.

However at $1767 pre solar a year and multiplying by 20 years + utility
cost inflation, the $17k purchase wouldn't be a bad deal if maintenance
didn't get in the way.

Of course, the odds aren't good I'll be around for 20 years.


--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill

On 12/26/2012 1:16 PM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
On 12/26/2012 11:48 AM, dpb wrote:
On 12/26/2012 10:37 AM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
...

All I know is I am generating more kWh than I use and it is costing me
less than before the system was installed.

And, of course, you're in AZ so that's a likely outcome.

What's missing in the overall cost data is the federal/state subsidies
that the supplier/utility receive that allow for your end rate to be
what it is. If you were paying "full retail" it wouldn't come close...
....

I do know the federal subsidy is considerable and has been that way for
quite a few years. Also, the feds are requiring the utility companies to
have a percentage of their capacity in renewables or pay fines.

As close as I can figure the subsidies is the purchase cost of ~$17k (in
which case I'd get the tax credits) and the lease full payout which in
looking at the paperwork would be $9.6k.

However at $1767 pre solar a year and multiplying by 20 years + utility
cost inflation, the $17k purchase wouldn't be a bad deal if maintenance
didn't get in the way.
....

There's probably state mandates for "green", too, that your generation
unit has to meet some minimum load percentage.

I'd suspect that last if is probably an _IF_ (the proverbial kind) altho
if you're in a hail-free area and such the odds of catastrophic failures
may not be too bad. It'll be interesting how the efficiency stays w/
time--the solar panels the oilfield collection/pipeline guys use here to
run their remote facilities are having to be replaced on fairly short
time frames at least up to now...

It's a future technology that's on it's growing pains--the biggest
issues I see overall for it and wind as well is that in order to really
be effective we'll end up having to pave the entire country and put
towers everywhere--there simply won't be anyplace at all that isn't
covered up and pristine. And, of course, it's still an unreliable fuel
source--sun only works half the time and wind doesn't always blow so we
still have to have the conventional reserve anyway.

--

On Wed, 26 Dec 2012 11:09:12 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 12/26/2012 10:37 AM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
On 12/26/2012 09:14 AM, Keith Nuttle wrote:
On 12/26/2012 9:16 AM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
After one full year of operation, here's the results of going solar for
my house.

Total electricity expense 2011 = $1767.36
Total electricity expense 2012 = $1315.32 (includes $93/mo solar lease
and $65 refund for excess power generated in 2012)

Savings $452.04

The above totals include taxes and fees of ~$19/mo.


To compare the to figure you need to provide additional information to
get a good comparison. Others have mentioned the return on investment.
19/month is not very high depending on the cost per year of unit or
rent. How much did it cost to modify the existing heating unit for the
solar.


Second and most important is a comparison of the heating/cooling
requirements for the two winters. I believe if you check there is a
parameter called Degree/Days. It is used by the energy providing
companies to estimate the amount of inventories they will need.

http://www.degreedays.net/
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/document...y/hcs/hcs.html

While I am not sure how it is calculated, the Degree days estimates the
amount of energy to provide the heat or cooling need to maintain an
ambient temperature. Sort of like the area under the daily temperature
curve.

So comparing the degree day for one year to that of the previous day
would give you a better comparison.

If the total degree days 2011 was 5000 and in 2012 was 4000, then your
cost save may not be significant as it took 20% less energy to heat the
house in 2012 as it did in 2012.

The $19/month is just for electric utility company taxes and fees. The
lease is $93/month.

There is no modification of the heating unit as this is solar electric
and is grid tied. I also use gas for heat. I'm in the AZ desert, so my
major electric usage is AC.

All I know is I am generating more kWh than I use and it is costing me
less than before the system was installed.

What provision was/is made in the event of a power failure in the
neighborhood? Is there an automatic switch that prevents you from
energizing the neighborhood should the power company fail to deliver power?






Grid tie is NOT off-grid. Grid goes down, so does the inverter.
Impossible to back-feed and impossible to "back up" in MOST
situations.

On Wed, 26 Dec 2012 11:15:50 -0600, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 12/26/12 10:37 AM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
The $19/month is just for electric utility company taxes and fees. The
lease is $93/month.


Interesting that the electric co is still allowed to charge tax and fees
on "nothing."
You are, in fact, selling them electricity, so they should be paying the
taxes and fees.
Who owns the lines he is connected to???? And provides the
"energization" to the inverter. If the line goes down, so does the
"grid tie" inverter.

On 12/26/2012 12:41 PM, dpb wrote:
On 12/26/2012 1:16 PM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
On 12/26/2012 11:48 AM, dpb wrote:
On 12/26/2012 10:37 AM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
...

All I know is I am generating more kWh than I use and it is costing me
less than before the system was installed.

And, of course, you're in AZ so that's a likely outcome.

What's missing in the overall cost data is the federal/state subsidies
that the supplier/utility receive that allow for your end rate to be
what it is. If you were paying "full retail" it wouldn't come close...
...

I do know the federal subsidy is considerable and has been that way for
quite a few years. Also, the feds are requiring the utility companies to
have a percentage of their capacity in renewables or pay fines.

As close as I can figure the subsidies is the purchase cost of ~$17k (in
which case I'd get the tax credits) and the lease full payout which in
looking at the paperwork would be $9.6k.

However at $1767 pre solar a year and multiplying by 20 years + utility
cost inflation, the $17k purchase wouldn't be a bad deal if maintenance
didn't get in the way.
...

There's probably state mandates for "green", too, that your generation
unit has to meet some minimum load percentage.

I'd suspect that last if is probably an _IF_ (the proverbial kind) altho
if you're in a hail-free area and such the odds of catastrophic failures
may not be too bad. It'll be interesting how the efficiency stays w/
time--the solar panels the oilfield collection/pipeline guys use here to
run their remote facilities are having to be replaced on fairly short
time frames at least up to now...

It's a future technology that's on it's growing pains--the biggest
issues I see overall for it and wind as well is that in order to really
be effective we'll end up having to pave the entire country and put
towers everywhere--there simply won't be anyplace at all that isn't
covered up and pristine. And, of course, it's still an unreliable fuel
source--sun only works half the time and wind doesn't always blow so we
still have to have the conventional reserve anyway.

--
The efficiency of the panels does go down with time. We don't have much
hail here, but it would be covered under the lease as would unacceptably
low output.

I agree it isn't the complete answer, but my roof wasn't being used for
anything else and I don't mind cutting my costs for electricity.


--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill

On 12/26/2012 12:12 PM, dpb wrote:
On 12/26/2012 1:00 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 12/26/12 12:46 PM, dpb wrote:
On 12/26/2012 11:15 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 12/26/12 10:37 AM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
The $19/month is just for electric utility company taxes and fees. The
lease is $93/month.


Interesting that the electric co is still allowed to charge tax and
fees
on "nothing."
You are, in fact, selling them electricity, so they should be paying
the
taxes and fees.

It's still _their_ grid he's hooked up to...


Fees I get. Taxes should be zero.

a) We don't know what taxes those are...
b) I expect while his net annual generation may be positive it's not
every month during the year.

So, insufficient information...besides, it's dealing w/ mandates/law so
there's nothing that says it has to make sense, anyway.

--

Here's the breakdown of taxes and fees:

Charges for electricity services
Cost of net electricity
Customer account charge $7.85
Delivery service charge $0.00
Environmental benefits surcharge $0.00
System benefits charge $0.00
Power supply adjustment* $0.00
Metering* $6.14
Meter reading* $2.05
Billing* $2.31
Generation of electricity on-peak* $0.00
Generation of electricity off-peak* $4.03
Federal transmission and ancillary services* $0.00
Federal transmission cost adjustment* $0.00
Cost of electricity you used $22.38
Taxes and fees
Regulatory assessment $0.05
State sales tax $1.51
County sales tax $0.25
City sales tax $0.46
Franchise fee $0.44
Cost of electricity with taxes and fees $25.09


--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill

On 12/26/2012 11:35 AM, Doug Winterburn wrote:



Yes, that is a requirement of the utility company. When the inverter
doesn't see utility power, it shuts down. Wouldn't want any linemen
getting zapped!




Exactly! Thank you for all of the information Doug!

On 12/26/2012 2:50 PM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
On 12/26/2012 12:41 PM, dpb wrote:
....

It's a future technology that's on it's growing pains--the biggest
issues I see overall for it and wind as well is that in order to really
be effective we'll end up having to pave the entire country and put
towers everywhere--there simply won't be anyplace at all that isn't
covered up and pristine. And, of course, it's still an unreliable fuel
source--sun only works half the time and wind doesn't always blow so we
still have to have the conventional reserve anyway.

The efficiency of the panels does go down with time. We don't have much
hail here, but it would be covered under the lease as would unacceptably
low output.

I agree it isn't the complete answer, but my roof wasn't being used for
anything else and I don't mind cutting my costs for electricity.

I was thinking of the case if you were having to do the full-monte cost
burden rather than the (I'm convinced) subsidized lease arrangement to
cover the maintenance whatever it turned out to be. On the lease
arrangement, sure, you're individually pretty much immune; it's all the
rest of us that are footing the bill (or the Chinese, more accurately,
perhaps ).

I'm heavily involved in our local REC and we have to deal w/ all these
mandates and still try to provide 100% reliable, inexpensive power to
our members/customers.

It just isn't at all clear how this can be done when even here in SW KS
which is the ideal wind territory other than for a _very_ few
geographical places in the entire world that do have nearly year-round
sufficient wind the large-scale wind farms average only about 35% of
installed capacity on an annual capacity factor basis. I've done
correlation studies of output w/ local wind data and the monthly
integrated output vs average wind speed over a seven year period has a
correlation factor of 80% which is very strong evidence the output is
wind-limited, not operational. When it takes 2.5X the installed
capacity to generate X MWe on the grid on average, and the low is as
little as 20% for a month, it makes the generation cost very high even
given the fuel cost is zero and then, as noted, we still have to have
spinning reserve for what can't be made up for at any given time.

One thing is clear if the mandates continue to grow is that costs are
going to go up drastically (or reliability is going to go way down).

--

On Wed, 26 Dec 2012 07:16:29 -0700, Doug Winterburn
wrote:

After one full year of operation, here's the results of going solar for
my house.

Total electricity expense 2011 = $1767.36
Total electricity expense 2012 = $1315.32 (includes $93/mo solar lease
and $65 refund for excess power generated in 2012)

Savings $452.04

The above totals include taxes and fees of ~$19/mo.

That's cool. A 25% savings and help for the decaying grid.
Kudos, sir.

--
You can either hold yourself up to the unrealistic standards of others,
or ignore them and concentrate on being happy with yourself as you are.
-- Jeph Jacques

On 12/26/2012 5:00 PM, dpb wrote:

It just isn't at all clear how this can be done when even here in SW KS
which is the ideal wind territory other than for a _very_ few
geographical places in the entire world that do have nearly year-round
sufficient wind the large-scale wind farms average only about 35% of
installed capacity on an annual capacity factor basis. I've done
correlation studies of output w/ local wind data and the monthly
integrated output vs average wind speed over a seven year period has a
correlation factor of 80% which is very strong evidence the output is
wind-limited, not operational. When it takes 2.5X the installed
capacity to generate X MWe on the grid on average, and the low is as
little as 20% for a month, it makes the generation cost very high even
given the fuel cost is zero and then, as noted, we still have to have
spinning reserve for what can't be made up for at any given time.

One thing is clear if the mandates continue to grow is that costs are
going to go up drastically (or reliability is going to go way down).

I was in Lost Vegas a couple years ago and noticed the wind was always
blowing, and of course, the sun was out in full force every day. Also
noticed no windmills anywhere, and no solar collectors. Also, in Vegas,
the billion or trillion lights seemed to shine 24/7. It seemed clear
that the giant dam feeding electric to them was providing energy cheap
enough that few cared much about wind/sun power even though to me, it
might possibly work a bit in the dessert.

Where I live, electric cost lots to produce but the damn sun never
shines, and wind is only around when it storms. If I had the sun and
wind of Vegas, I'd have both solar and windmills, and not one small part
of me is green.


--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 12/27/2012 07:39 AM, Jack wrote:
On 12/26/2012 5:00 PM, dpb wrote:

It just isn't at all clear how this can be done when even here in SW KS
which is the ideal wind territory other than for a _very_ few
geographical places in the entire world that do have nearly year-round
sufficient wind the large-scale wind farms average only about 35% of
installed capacity on an annual capacity factor basis. I've done
correlation studies of output w/ local wind data and the monthly
integrated output vs average wind speed over a seven year period has a
correlation factor of 80% which is very strong evidence the output is
wind-limited, not operational. When it takes 2.5X the installed
capacity to generate X MWe on the grid on average, and the low is as
little as 20% for a month, it makes the generation cost very high even
given the fuel cost is zero and then, as noted, we still have to have
spinning reserve for what can't be made up for at any given time.

One thing is clear if the mandates continue to grow is that costs are
going to go up drastically (or reliability is going to go way down).

I was in Lost Vegas a couple years ago and noticed the wind was always
blowing, and of course, the sun was out in full force every day. Also
noticed no windmills anywhere, and no solar collectors. Also, in Vegas,
the billion or trillion lights seemed to shine 24/7. It seemed clear
that the giant dam feeding electric to them was providing energy cheap
enough that few cared much about wind/sun power even though to me, it
might possibly work a bit in the dessert.

Where I live, electric cost lots to produce but the damn sun never
shines, and wind is only around when it storms. If I had the sun and
wind of Vegas, I'd have both solar and windmills, and not one small part
of me is green.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nevada_Solar_One



--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill

On 12/26/2012 7:16 AM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
After one full year of operation, here's the results of going solar for
my house.

Total electricity expense 2011 = $1767.36
Total electricity expense 2012 = $1315.32 (includes $93/mo solar lease
and $65 refund for excess power generated in 2012)

Savings $452.04

The above totals include taxes and fees of ~$19/mo.






here's my data for last year:

total electricity generated 2012: 13972 kwh

total electricity expense 2009 $1854
total electricity expense 2012 $200
and $240 refund for excess power generated

Savings $1894

On 01/03/2013 08:59 AM, chaniarts wrote:
On 12/26/2012 7:16 AM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
After one full year of operation, here's the results of going solar for
my house.

Total electricity expense 2011 = $1767.36
Total electricity expense 2012 = $1315.32 (includes $93/mo solar lease
and $65 refund for excess power generated in 2012)

Savings $452.04

The above totals include taxes and fees of ~$19/mo.






here's my data for last year:

total electricity generated 2012: 13972 kwh

total electricity expense 2009 $1854
total electricity expense 2012 $200
and $240 refund for excess power generated

Savings $1894

You must have purchased your system. How may panels, kW rating, location?

- Doug


--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill

On 1/3/2013 9:05 AM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
On 01/03/2013 08:59 AM, chaniarts wrote:
On 12/26/2012 7:16 AM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
After one full year of operation, here's the results of going solar for
my house.

Total electricity expense 2011 = $1767.36
Total electricity expense 2012 = $1315.32 (includes $93/mo solar lease
and $65 refund for excess power generated in 2012)

Savings $452.04

The above totals include taxes and fees of ~$19/mo.






here's my data for last year:

total electricity generated 2012: 13972 kwh

total electricity expense 2009 $1854
total electricity expense 2012 $200
and $240 refund for excess power generated

Savings $1894

You must have purchased your system. How may panels, kW rating, location?

- Doug


44 panels in a 7.7kw array.
cave creek. http://www.pvoutput.org/list.jsp?userid=1569

yes, i purchased them june 2009. 2.5 years saved $4500 so far. payoff
date should be 4.3 years, less if aps rate increases hit as planned.

On Thu, 03 Jan 2013 09:31:07 -0700, chaniarts
yes, i purchased them june 2009. 2.5 years saved $4500 so far. payoff
date should be 4.3 years, less if aps rate increases hit as planned.

Less if there's any repair fees. What about maintenance fees, if any?
How long is/was the original warranty on said purchase?

On 01/03/2013 09:36 AM, Dave wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jan 2013 09:31:07 -0700, chaniarts
yes, i purchased them june 2009. 2.5 years saved $4500 so far. payoff
date should be 4.3 years, less if aps rate increases hit as planned.

Less if there's any repair fees. What about maintenance fees, if any?
How long is/was the original warranty on said purchase?


Don't you get tired lugging around that bucket of cold water?


--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill

On 1/3/2013 9:36 AM, Dave wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jan 2013 09:31:07 -0700, chaniarts
yes, i purchased them june 2009. 2.5 years saved $4500 so far. payoff
date should be 4.3 years, less if aps rate increases hit as planned.

Less if there's any repair fees. What about maintenance fees, if any?
How long is/was the original warranty on said purchase?


0 costs in 2.5 years. the warrantee is 10 years on the converter, and 25
years on the panels, and low production is warranteed. production has
gone up in the past 2.5 years, so i'm not seeing a dropoff in
production. that may be due to less cloudy days though.

they've lasted through a 1.5" diameter hailstorm, so i expect that they
will last through anything normal in this area.

On 01/03/2013 08:59 AM, chaniarts wrote:
On 12/26/2012 7:16 AM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
After one full year of operation, here's the results of going solar for
my house.

Total electricity expense 2011 = $1767.36
Total electricity expense 2012 = $1315.32 (includes $93/mo solar lease
and $65 refund for excess power generated in 2012)

Savings $452.04

The above totals include taxes and fees of ~$19/mo.






here's my data for last year:

total electricity generated 2012: 13972 kwh

total electricity expense 2009 $1854
total electricity expense 2012 $200
and $240 refund for excess power generated

Savings $1894

My system generated 12,272 kWh in 2012 - 6.4 kW system with 28 panels.

- Doug

--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill