Is it ok to use wood filler to skim coat a particle board surface
before sanding, priming and painting?

Thanks.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

On 12/21/12 5:35 PM, Searcher7 wrote:
Is it ok to use wood filler to skim coat a particle board surface
before sanding, priming and painting?

Thanks.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.


I don't see that turning out very well.
Shellac based primer would work very well.
Zinsser B-I-N is what I use. If one coat doesn't fill the nooks and
crannies, level-sand the first coat, and the second should be baby-butt
smooth.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

"Searcher7" wrote in message
...
Is it ok to use wood filler to skim coat a particle board surface
before sanding, priming and painting?

Thanks.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

I'd use bondo before wood filler.

On 12/21/2012 6:35 PM, Searcher7 wrote:
Is it ok to use wood filler to skim coat a particle board surface
before sanding, priming and painting?

Thanks.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

Particle board can finish up nicely. I would use zinnser sanding sealer
50/50 for the first coat, then straight after for 2 or 3 more coats to
build up. Then sand, and you are ready to prime and paint.

Searcher7 wrote:

Is it ok to use wood filler to skim coat a particle board surface
before sanding, priming and painting?


Ugh! No.

After your last experience with primer fills I would have thought you'd
already have an idea what direction to go with this.

Wood filler is garbage so drop it from your vocabulary.

--

-Mike-

Thanks everyone.

The reason I asked about wood filler was because it seemed the
cheapest way to cover the entire cabinet, which would be about 50
square feet.

I don't know how many coats I'll need to apply, but how much Zinnser
or Bondo would I need?

Thanks.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

"Searcher7" wrote:

I don't know how many coats I'll need to apply, but how much Zinnser
or Bondo would I need?

-----------------------------------------------------
Forget the Bondo.

Start with a gallon of Zinnser and play it by ear.

You don't have a glue how much the surface will suck up
until you get into the project.

Lew

Searcher7 wrote:
Is it ok to use wood filler to skim coat a particle board surface
before sanding, priming and painting?

Thanks.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

It depends on the filler I guess but most anything that adheres decently
could be used. Even drywall mud. Yes, drywall mud. I can think of nothing
that sands any easier.

There are two general types of drywall mud: setting and drying. The setting
type comes in a powder to mix with water; the powder is calcium sulfate -
gypsum (aka "plaster") - and it binds chemically with the water' once dry,
it cannot be dissolved again with water. The drying type comes pre-mixed in
a bucket. It is just fine calcium carbonate with starch as a binder; once
dry, it can be "melted" again with water. The fact that drying type DWM is
absorbent means that anything you use as a top coat will soak into it
further binding it.

The only worry I would have - and it is a minor one - in using water base
DWM on particle board is the fact that particle board and water don't play
well together; however; water base paint is used on particle board all the
time. If the PB swells from DWM the problem is easily solvable by giving
the PB a coat of whatever first.

I note that people have recommended both Zinsser B-I-N and Bondo. Either
would work well too but a bucket of DWM is cheaper and will cover a lot more
than a gallon of B-I-N; it is MUCH cheaper than a gallon of Bondo and will
also cover much more. Bondo is talc with polyester resin as a binder; it
sets when a catalyst (supplied) is mixed with it. I like Bondo and use it
but even though it sands relatively easily it is much harder to sand than
DWM.

Speaking of talc, I often use it mixing it with lacquer as a binder. I
don't generally use it all over, more as a putty to fill dings. Once
painted, it is good inside or out.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Maybe just ready for a change? Check it out...
http://www.floridaloghouse.net

Searcher7 wrote:
Thanks everyone.

The reason I asked about wood filler was because it seemed the
cheapest way to cover the entire cabinet, which would be about 50
square feet.

I don't know how many coats I'll need to apply, but how much Zinnser
or Bondo would I need?


You don't want Bondo. You'll just make way more work for yourself, and for
no good reason. Can't tell you how much Zinnser you'll need. It all
depends on how much the particle board soaks up, and how well it builds up
with subsequent coats. I suppose I'd get a couple of quarts and see how far
that went.

--

-Mike-

On 12/21/2012 5:35 PM, Searcher7 wrote:
Is it ok to use wood filler to skim coat a particle board surface
before sanding, priming and painting?


Zinsser Bulls Eye 1-2-3 Primer/Sealer

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://plus.google.com/114902129577517371552/posts
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

It depends on the filler I guess but most anything that adheres decently
could be used. Even drywall mud. Yes, drywall mud. I can think of
nothing that sands any easier.


I have used mud on a couple of projects and it worked well.

On 12/22/12 4:02 AM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
"Searcher7" wrote:

I don't know how many coats I'll need to apply, but how much Zinnser
or Bondo would I need?

-----------------------------------------------------
Forget the Bondo.

Start with a gallon of Zinnser and play it by ear.

You don't have a glue how much the surface will suck up
until you get into the project.

Lew


One nice thing about that Zinsser BIN is the first coat does a pretty
good job of sealing thing up.
When I used it to seal the edges of some MDF (nothing sucks up like
mdf!) panels for cabinet doors, one coat was all it took to seal the
edges. The subsequent coat laid on top and sanded very smooth.

BTW, to the original poster, BIN is tintable. Have the paint shop add
some pigment to your can so you can get by with one coat of paint.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Dec 22 2012, 10:18*am, "Pat" wrote:
It depends on the filler I guess but most anything that adheres decently
could be used. *Even drywall mud. *Yes, drywall mud. *I can think of
nothing that sands any easier.

I have used mud on a couple of projects and it worked well.

Ok, I tried the mud first. But I don't think it works well. After
sanding following the first coat it seemed I was back where I started.
Am I sanding too much off?

Thanks.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

On Tue, 22 Jan 2013 13:25:21 -0800 (PST), Searcher7
wrote:

On Dec 22 2012, 10:18*am, "Pat" wrote:
It depends on the filler I guess but most anything that adheres decently
could be used. *Even drywall mud. *Yes, drywall mud. *I can think of
nothing that sands any easier.

I have used mud on a couple of projects and it worked well.

Ok, I tried the mud first. But I don't think it works well. After
sanding following the first coat it seemed I was back where I started.
Am I sanding too much off?

No, it either falls out, is blown out, is picked out by the roller, or
is brushed out by the brush. Great stuff. (Now you see why Bondo was
suggested.)

--
The door of opportunity is marked "PUSH".
--anon

On Jan 22, 10:13*pm, Larry Jaques
wrote:
On Tue, 22 Jan 2013 13:25:21 -0800 (PST), Searcher7

wrote:
On Dec 22 2012, 10:18 am, "Pat" wrote:
It depends on the filler I guess but most anything that adheres decently
could be used. Even drywall mud. Yes, drywall mud. I can think of
nothing that sands any easier.

I have used mud on a couple of projects and it worked well.

Ok, I tried the mud first. But I don't think it works well. After
sanding following the first coat it seemed I was back where I started.
Am I sanding too much off?

No, it either falls out, is blown out, is picked out by the roller, or
is brushed out by the brush. Great stuff. (Now you see why Bondo was
suggested.)

Or the most popular finish for particle board, Formica.

Searcher7 wrote:
On Dec 22 2012, 10:18 am, "Pat" wrote:
It depends on the filler I guess but most anything that adheres
decently could be used. Even drywall mud. Yes, drywall mud. I can
think of nothing that sands any easier.

I have used mud on a couple of projects and it worked well.

Ok, I tried the mud first. But I don't think it works well. After
sanding following the first coat it seemed I was back where I started.
Am I sanding too much off?

First coat of what? Filler? Paint?

If filler, you don't make multiple coats...you smear on a coat of sufficient
thickness with a spatula or broad knife, let it dry and sand off excess
using nothing coarser than #150 sand paper, finer is better.

If paint; what kind? Oil? Water?

If oil, then you are sanding off too much and/or using too coarse a grit.

If water, then you are a masochist...water base acrylic paint doesn't sand,
it tears and balls up into a mess. OK, you *can* wet sand it with better
results but doing so is still masochistic. Even if you *could* sand water
base acrylic, doing so would tend to remove filler if you removed much paint
as the filler is water soluble and will have melded with the paint.


--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

"Searcher7" wrote in message
...

On Dec 22 2012, 10:18 am, "Pat" wrote:
It depends on the filler I guess but most anything that adheres
decently
could be used. Even drywall mud. Yes, drywall mud. I can think of
nothing that sands any easier.

I have used mud on a couple of projects and it worked well.

Ok, I tried the mud first. But I don't think it works well. After
sanding following the first coat it seemed I was back where I started.
Am I sanding too much off?

Thanks.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

I cannot find the beginning of this thread so I'm coming into the middle...
new computer, new mail reader...

Anyhow, I often use Plaster of Paris as a filler. It adheres well, fills
well, and disappears under oil based "clear" finishes. It dries fast and
hard also. It works very well on woods with open grain like red oak. I've
even used it on cherry that had a lot of "character" (e.g., knots, punk,
insect holes) as a means to fill but not necessarily hide defects before
putting on myriad coats of oil finish. By the time I was done with 20+ coats
of finish, sanding in between, the wood was consolidated and filled well and
the plaster was invisible.

I'd read that Plaster of Paris was used as a filler in furniture factories
in the past... I found this to be true when I restored an old oak kitchen
table. Keeping with that I refilled it with plaster as part of the
finishing process.

John

On Jan 23, 7:45*am, "dadiOH" wrote:
Searcher7wrote:
On Dec 22 2012, 10:18 am, "Pat" wrote:
It depends on the filler I guess but most anything that adheres
decently could be used. Even drywall mud. Yes, drywall mud. I can
think of nothing that sands any easier.

I have used mud on a couple of projects and it worked well.

Ok, I tried the mud first. But I don't think it works well. After
sanding following the first coat it seemed I was back where I started.
Am I sanding too much off?

First coat of what? *Filler? *Paint?

If filler, you don't make multiple coats...you smear on a coat of sufficient
thickness with a spatula or broad knife, let it dry and sand off excess
using nothing coarser than #150 sand paper, finer is better.

If paint; what kind? *Oil? *Water?

If oil, then you are sanding off too much and/or using too coarse a grit.

If water, then you are a masochist...water base acrylic paint doesn't sand,
it tears and balls up into a mess. *OK, you *can* wet sand it with better
results but doing so is still masochistic. *Even if you *could* sand water
base acrylic, doing so would tend to remove filler if you removed much paint
as the filler is water soluble and will have melded with the paint.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? *Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out...http://www.floridaloghouse.net

Ok, let me back track.

I primed a particle board surface after I removed the adhesive vinyl
and sanded the surface. This is what I got:
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...ts/Primed2.jpg
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...ts/Primed1.jpg

The inconsistency is obviously due to me alternating between using the
heat gun and pulling the vinyl off.

Even sanding afterwards didn't help even the surface:
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...dingPrimer.jpg

So I tried drywall mud as per advice here, but I still didn't get the
consistent surface and now I might just try priming again before
tryign some latex paint in opes it fills in enough to make the surface
smooth.

Thanks.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

On Wed, 23 Jan 2013 14:48:30 -0800 (PST), Searcher7
wrote:

Ok, let me back track.

I primed a particle board surface after I removed the adhesive vinyl
and sanded the surface. This is what I got:
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...ts/Primed2.jpg
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...ts/Primed1.jpg

The inconsistency is obviously due to me alternating between using the
heat gun and pulling the vinyl off.

Even sanding afterwards didn't help even the surface:
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...dingPrimer.jpg

So I tried drywall mud as per advice here, but I still didn't get the
consistent surface and now I might just try priming again before
tryign some latex paint in opes it fills in enough to make the surface
smooth.

At this point, new MDF would likely be your easiest and cheapest
solution, Darren. I think you have leftover adhesive on top of the
peeled particleboard. (A real messy deal.)

--
The door of opportunity is marked "PUSH".
--anon

Searcher7 wrote:


So I tried drywall mud as per advice here, but I still didn't get the
consistent surface and now I might just try priming again before
tryign some latex paint in opes it fills in enough to make the surface
smooth.


What do you mean when you say you tried drywall mud? Looking at what you
have in the pictures, you should have put a skim coat on the entire surface
and then used a long board to sand it down smooth, and even. That's what I
would do at this point. Shouldn't take long at all to get it flat and
smooth.

--

-Mike-

Searcher7 wrote:
On Jan 23, 7:45 am, "dadiOH" wrote:
Searcher7wrote:
On Dec 22 2012, 10:18 am, "Pat" wrote:
It depends on the filler I guess but most anything that adheres
decently could be used. Even drywall mud. Yes, drywall mud. I can
think of nothing that sands any easier.

I have used mud on a couple of projects and it worked well.

Ok, I tried the mud first. But I don't think it works well. After
sanding following the first coat it seemed I was back where I
started. Am I sanding too much off?

First coat of what? Filler? Paint?

If filler, you don't make multiple coats...you smear on a coat of
sufficient thickness with a spatula or broad knife, let it dry and
sand off excess using nothing coarser than #150 sand paper, finer is
better.

If paint; what kind? Oil? Water?

If oil, then you are sanding off too much and/or using too coarse a
grit.

If water, then you are a masochist...water base acrylic paint
doesn't sand, it tears and balls up into a mess. OK, you *can* wet
sand it with better results but doing so is still masochistic. Even
if you *could* sand water base acrylic, doing so would tend to
remove filler if you removed much paint as the filler is water
soluble and will have melded with the paint.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out...http://www.floridaloghouse.net

Ok, let me back track.

I primed a particle board surface after I removed the adhesive vinyl
and sanded the surface. This is what I got:
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...ts/Primed2.jpg
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...ts/Primed1.jpg

The inconsistency is obviously due to me alternating between using the
heat gun and pulling the vinyl off.

Even sanding afterwards didn't help even the surface:
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...dingPrimer.jpg

So I tried drywall mud as per advice here, but I still didn't get the
consistent surface and now I might just try priming again before
tryign some latex paint in opes it fills in enough to make the surface
smooth.

There isn't a snowball's chance in hell of paint filling that surface. And
I have no idea what you mean when you say you "removed the adhesive vinyl".
Personally, I have never seen vinyl glued to particle board; not saying it
doesn't exist, just that I have never seen such. Are you talking about a
user applied material like contact "paper"?

To get a smooth painted surface, two things are necessary...
1. The surface being painted has to be smooth
2. The paint has to be appied evenly and it must "self level". As paint
dries it shrinks to conform to the surface under it; if that surface was
smooth, the paint surface will be too; if that surface was rough, the paint
surface will be too.

There are two ways to get a smooth, paintable surface...
1. sand down all high spots to the level of the lowest low spot
2. fill all the low spots to at least the height of the highest high
spot

Particle board by its nature won't sand to a really smooth surface. It
*WILL* sand to a much smoother one than that evidenced in your photos.

All fillers consist of a finally ground material - usually mineral - mixed
with a binder. What those materials are and their relative proportions
determine how well it fills and how well it sands. Most primers are also
modest fillers because of their relatively high (for paint) mineral content.
International paint used to make a really great one...thick bodied, dried in
an hour, sanded to dust. Last time I looked 10 or more years ago it was
$120+ a gallon.

Drywall mud is calcium carbonate bound with starch. It is cheap, readily
available and - when dry - sands very well. It would be very easy to turn
your moonscape particle board surface into a smooth one with drywall mud...
1. Trowel on a layer covering the entire board
2. Let dry completely
3. Sand with #150 or finer paper. Ideally, you want a thin very layer
left on the highest spots after sanding.
4. Seal the surface
5. Top coat

You could use Bondo rather than drywall mud; however, it is much more
expensive, more difficult to use and apply and harder to sand.

You could use plaster of Paris. It is the same as setting drywall mud and
is also harder to sand (than is drying drywall mud).

You could make your own filler using talc, pumice, whiting or similar as the
filler and clear acrylic, lacquer or varnish as the binder. Talc and
lacquer work well, takes a while to dry.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

dadiOH wrote:


Drywall mud is calcium carbonate bound with starch. It is cheap,
readily available and - when dry - sands very well. It would be very
easy to turn your moonscape particle board surface into a smooth one
with drywall mud... 1. Trowel on a layer covering the entire board
2. Let dry completely
3. Sand with #150 or finer paper. Ideally, you want a thin very
layer left on the highest spots after sanding.
4. Seal the surface
5. Top coat

You could use Bondo rather than drywall mud; however, it is much more
expensive, more difficult to use and apply and harder to sand.

I tried to reply to the OP's question yesterday, but I had problems
connecting to eternal-september for a large part of the day. My response
was essentially the same as what you say above, and is my recommendation.

To the OP - try to get just a skim coat of mud on the entire surface, as
flat as you reasonably can. The wider of a spreading device you use, the
better the chance of getting it flat. Likewise, when you knock it down, the
longer of a sanding board you use, the flatter it will be. If you sand
through the mud, to the underlying particle board anywhere, stop. Right
then and there. Just stop. Put on another coat of mud and go at it again.
When it is done properly, you will have a dead flat surface that is
completely covered in a skim coat of mud.

I agree that I would not use autobody fillers. Way too hard to sand out for
this project, and they offer nothing that simple drywall mud does not offer.

--

-Mike-

"dadiOH" wrote:

International paint used to make a really great one...thick bodied,
dried in an hour, sanded to dust. Last time I looked 10 or more
years ago it was $120+ a gallon.
---------------------------------------------------
You talking about "ROJO"?

If so, last 2 qt "Kit" I bought was about $90 and that was also about
10+
years ago.

Great stuff.

To paraphrase the old Brylcreem commercial, A dab will do ya.

Lew

Lew Hodgett wrote:
"dadiOH" wrote:

International paint used to make a really great one...thick bodied,
dried in an hour, sanded to dust. Last time I looked 10 or more
years ago it was $120+ a gallon.
---------------------------------------------------
You talking about "ROJO"?

I don't think so. It had just a number (36x?) for a name. It had been
developed specifically to fill grain in Phillipine mahogany, did that *VERY*
well. It was one part, had a lot of xylene in it (fast dry). I'd sure
like to find something that does as well at a realistic price.

It is very possible that it is no longer made.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

"dadiOH" wrote in message
...
Lew Hodgett wrote:
"dadiOH" wrote:

International paint used to make a really great one...thick bodied,
dried in an hour, sanded to dust. Last time I looked 10 or more
years ago it was $120+ a gallon.
---------------------------------------------------
Lew Hodgett wrote:

You talking about "ROJO"?
---------------------------------------------------
"dadiOH" wrote:

I don't think so. It had just a number (36x?) for a name. It had
been developed specifically to fill grain in Phillipine mahogany,
did that *VERY* well. It was one part, had a lot of xylene in it
(fast dry). I'd sure like to find something that does as well at a
realistic price.

It is very possible that it is no longer made.
----------------------------------------------
ROJO was developed specifically to fill rusted metal spots after the
spot
had been sandblasted.

Biggest customer was the US Navy.

I used it as a final filler on my boat hull before priming and
painting.

What you are describing is in a totally different world.

The xylene content has probably killed it.

You wouldn't be able to get it here in CA.

The industrial division of I/P is in Houston (They handle ROJO).

Might want to check with them.

Lew

On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 09:19:11 -0500, "dadiOH"
wrote:

Searcher7 wrote:
On Jan 23, 7:45 am, "dadiOH" wrote:
Searcher7wrote:
On Dec 22 2012, 10:18 am, "Pat" wrote:
It depends on the filler I guess but most anything that adheres
decently could be used. Even drywall mud. Yes, drywall mud. I can
think of nothing that sands any easier.

I have used mud on a couple of projects and it worked well.

Ok, I tried the mud first. But I don't think it works well. After
sanding following the first coat it seemed I was back where I
started. Am I sanding too much off?

First coat of what? Filler? Paint?

If filler, you don't make multiple coats...you smear on a coat of
sufficient thickness with a spatula or broad knife, let it dry and
sand off excess using nothing coarser than #150 sand paper, finer is
better.

If paint; what kind? Oil? Water?

If oil, then you are sanding off too much and/or using too coarse a
grit.

If water, then you are a masochist...water base acrylic paint
doesn't sand, it tears and balls up into a mess. OK, you *can* wet
sand it with better results but doing so is still masochistic. Even
if you *could* sand water base acrylic, doing so would tend to
remove filler if you removed much paint as the filler is water
soluble and will have melded with the paint.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out...http://www.floridaloghouse.net

Ok, let me back track.

I primed a particle board surface after I removed the adhesive vinyl
and sanded the surface. This is what I got:
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...ts/Primed2.jpg
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...ts/Primed1.jpg

The inconsistency is obviously due to me alternating between using the
heat gun and pulling the vinyl off.

Even sanding afterwards didn't help even the surface:
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...dingPrimer.jpg

So I tried drywall mud as per advice here, but I still didn't get the
consistent surface and now I might just try priming again before
tryign some latex paint in opes it fills in enough to make the surface
smooth.

There isn't a snowball's chance in hell of paint filling that surface. And
I have no idea what you mean when you say you "removed the adhesive vinyl".
Personally, I have never seen vinyl glued to particle board; not saying it
doesn't exist, just that I have never seen such. Are you talking about a
user applied material like contact "paper"?

To get a smooth painted surface, two things are necessary...
1. The surface being painted has to be smooth
2. The paint has to be appied evenly and it must "self level". As paint
dries it shrinks to conform to the surface under it; if that surface was
smooth, the paint surface will be too; if that surface was rough, the paint
surface will be too.

There are two ways to get a smooth, paintable surface...
1. sand down all high spots to the level of the lowest low spot
2. fill all the low spots to at least the height of the highest high
spot

Particle board by its nature won't sand to a really smooth surface. It
*WILL* sand to a much smoother one than that evidenced in your photos.

All fillers consist of a finally ground material - usually mineral - mixed
with a binder. What those materials are and their relative proportions
determine how well it fills and how well it sands. Most primers are also
modest fillers because of their relatively high (for paint) mineral content.
International paint used to make a really great one...thick bodied, dried in
an hour, sanded to dust. Last time I looked 10 or more years ago it was
$120+ a gallon.

Drywall mud is calcium carbonate bound with starch. It is cheap, readily
available and - when dry - sands very well. It would be very easy to turn
your moonscape particle board surface into a smooth one with drywall mud...
1. Trowel on a layer covering the entire board
2. Let dry completely
3. Sand with #150 or finer paper. Ideally, you want a thin very layer
left on the highest spots after sanding.
4. Seal the surface
5. Top coat

You could use Bondo rather than drywall mud; however, it is much more
expensive, more difficult to use and apply and harder to sand.

You could use plaster of Paris. It is the same as setting drywall mud and
is also harder to sand (than is drying drywall mud).

You could make your own filler using talc, pumice, whiting or similar as the
filler and clear acrylic, lacquer or varnish as the binder. Talc and
lacquer work well, takes a while to dry.
Use the product that is MADE for the job. It is called fast-build
primer surfacer or "sanding primer".

wrote:

Use the product that is MADE for the job. It is called fast-build
primer surfacer or "sanding primer".

Fillers are indeed made for the job. I'm no advocate of high build primers.
When they shrink, you can see everything they were trying to hide. And...
they take a while to shrink. ****es ya right off when two months after
you've finished the job, scratches and fills start showing through.

--

-Mike-

wrote:
On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 09:19:11 -0500, "dadiOH"
wrote:

Searcher7 wrote:
On Jan 23, 7:45 am, "dadiOH" wrote:
Searcher7wrote:
On Dec 22 2012, 10:18 am, "Pat" wrote:
It depends on the filler I guess but most anything that adheres
decently could be used. Even drywall mud. Yes, drywall mud. I
can think of nothing that sands any easier.

I have used mud on a couple of projects and it worked well.

Ok, I tried the mud first. But I don't think it works well. After
sanding following the first coat it seemed I was back where I
started. Am I sanding too much off?

First coat of what? Filler? Paint?

If filler, you don't make multiple coats...you smear on a coat of
sufficient thickness with a spatula or broad knife, let it dry and
sand off excess using nothing coarser than #150 sand paper, finer
is better.

If paint; what kind? Oil? Water?

If oil, then you are sanding off too much and/or using too coarse a
grit.

If water, then you are a masochist...water base acrylic paint
doesn't sand, it tears and balls up into a mess. OK, you *can* wet
sand it with better results but doing so is still masochistic. Even
if you *could* sand water base acrylic, doing so would tend to
remove filler if you removed much paint as the filler is water
soluble and will have melded with the paint.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out...http://www.floridaloghouse.net

Ok, let me back track.

I primed a particle board surface after I removed the adhesive vinyl
and sanded the surface. This is what I got:
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...ts/Primed2.jpg
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...ts/Primed1.jpg

The inconsistency is obviously due to me alternating between using
the heat gun and pulling the vinyl off.

Even sanding afterwards didn't help even the surface:
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...dingPrimer.jpg

So I tried drywall mud as per advice here, but I still didn't get
the consistent surface and now I might just try priming again before
tryign some latex paint in opes it fills in enough to make the
surface smooth.

There isn't a snowball's chance in hell of paint filling that
surface. And I have no idea what you mean when you say you "removed
the adhesive vinyl". Personally, I have never seen vinyl glued to
particle board; not saying it doesn't exist, just that I have never
seen such. Are you talking about a user applied material like
contact "paper"?

To get a smooth painted surface, two things are necessary...
1. The surface being painted has to be smooth
2. The paint has to be appied evenly and it must "self level".
As paint dries it shrinks to conform to the surface under it; if
that surface was smooth, the paint surface will be too; if that
surface was rough, the paint surface will be too.

There are two ways to get a smooth, paintable surface...
1. sand down all high spots to the level of the lowest low spot
2. fill all the low spots to at least the height of the highest
high spot

Particle board by its nature won't sand to a really smooth surface.
It *WILL* sand to a much smoother one than that evidenced in your
photos.

All fillers consist of a finally ground material - usually mineral -
mixed with a binder. What those materials are and their relative
proportions determine how well it fills and how well it sands. Most
primers are also modest fillers because of their relatively high
(for paint) mineral content. International paint used to make a
really great one...thick bodied, dried in an hour, sanded to dust.
Last time I looked 10 or more years ago it was $120+ a gallon.

Drywall mud is calcium carbonate bound with starch. It is cheap,
readily available and - when dry - sands very well. It would be
very easy to turn your moonscape particle board surface into a
smooth one with drywall mud...
1. Trowel on a layer covering the entire board
2. Let dry completely
3. Sand with #150 or finer paper. Ideally, you want a thin very
layer left on the highest spots after sanding.
4. Seal the surface
5. Top coat

You could use Bondo rather than drywall mud; however, it is much more
expensive, more difficult to use and apply and harder to sand.

You could use plaster of Paris. It is the same as setting drywall
mud and is also harder to sand (than is drying drywall mud).

You could make your own filler using talc, pumice, whiting or
similar as the filler and clear acrylic, lacquer or varnish as the
binder. Talc and lacquer work well, takes a while to dry.

Use the product that is MADE for the job. It is called fast-build
primer surfacer or "sanding primer".


Judging from his photos, I don't think those would even *begin* to smooth
his particle board. Not without many, many coats at least.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

"Mike Marlow"wrote:

I'm no advocate of high build primers. When they shrink, you can see
everything they were trying to hide. And... they take a while to
shrink. ****es ya right off when two months after you've finished
the job, scratches and fills start showing through.
-------------------------------------------------
Not a problem with marine high build primers that build about 5 mil
per pass.

Of course your are looking at a different price structure.

Was over $100/gal, 10 years ago.

Lew

Lew Hodgett wrote:
"Mike Marlow"wrote:

I'm no advocate of high build primers. When they shrink, you can see
everything they were trying to hide. And... they take a while to
shrink. ****es ya right off when two months after you've finished
the job, scratches and fills start showing through.
-------------------------------------------------
Not a problem with marine high build primers that build about 5 mil
per pass.

Of course your are looking at a different price structure.

Was over $100/gal, 10 years ago.


Yeah - I'm not familiar with the marine stuff. I know they use a lot of
different materials that behave differently than standard finishes do. The
urethane primers I use sell for about $100 a gallon these days, and they are
rated for high build, but they also display the shrinkage issues I spoke of.
They work well for getting that dead flat surface as long as you're only
dealing with very minor variations (think wave), but not so well at all for
the kind of surface the OP showed pictures of. That surface just needs
work!

--

-Mike-

On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 14:47:03 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

wrote:

Use the product that is MADE for the job. It is called fast-build
primer surfacer or "sanding primer".

Fillers are indeed made for the job. I'm no advocate of high build primers.
When they shrink, you can see everything they were trying to hide. And...
they take a while to shrink. ****es ya right off when two months after
you've finished the job, scratches and fills start showing through.
The new stuff does not shrink AT ALL. It is a polyester based product
- low VOC - curing, not drying.

On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 12:48:25 -0800, "Lew Hodgett"
wrote:


"Mike Marlow"wrote:

I'm no advocate of high build primers. When they shrink, you can see
everything they were trying to hide. And... they take a while to
shrink. ****es ya right off when two months after you've finished
the job, scratches and fills start showing through.
-------------------------------------------------
Not a problem with marine high build primers that build about 5 mil
per pass.

Of course your are looking at a different price structure.

Was over $100/gal, 10 years ago.

Lew


So was good automotive paint - - -

On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 15:47:11 -0500, "dadiOH"
wrote:

wrote:
On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 09:19:11 -0500, "dadiOH"
wrote:

Searcher7 wrote:
On Jan 23, 7:45 am, "dadiOH" wrote:
Searcher7wrote:
On Dec 22 2012, 10:18 am, "Pat" wrote:
It depends on the filler I guess but most anything that adheres
decently could be used. Even drywall mud. Yes, drywall mud. I
can think of nothing that sands any easier.

I have used mud on a couple of projects and it worked well.

Ok, I tried the mud first. But I don't think it works well. After
sanding following the first coat it seemed I was back where I
started. Am I sanding too much off?

First coat of what? Filler? Paint?

If filler, you don't make multiple coats...you smear on a coat of
sufficient thickness with a spatula or broad knife, let it dry and
sand off excess using nothing coarser than #150 sand paper, finer
is better.

If paint; what kind? Oil? Water?

If oil, then you are sanding off too much and/or using too coarse a
grit.

If water, then you are a masochist...water base acrylic paint
doesn't sand, it tears and balls up into a mess. OK, you *can* wet
sand it with better results but doing so is still masochistic. Even
if you *could* sand water base acrylic, doing so would tend to
remove filler if you removed much paint as the filler is water
soluble and will have melded with the paint.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out...http://www.floridaloghouse.net

Ok, let me back track.

I primed a particle board surface after I removed the adhesive vinyl
and sanded the surface. This is what I got:
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...ts/Primed2.jpg
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...ts/Primed1.jpg

The inconsistency is obviously due to me alternating between using
the heat gun and pulling the vinyl off.

Even sanding afterwards didn't help even the surface:
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...dingPrimer.jpg

So I tried drywall mud as per advice here, but I still didn't get
the consistent surface and now I might just try priming again before
tryign some latex paint in opes it fills in enough to make the
surface smooth.

There isn't a snowball's chance in hell of paint filling that
surface. And I have no idea what you mean when you say you "removed
the adhesive vinyl". Personally, I have never seen vinyl glued to
particle board; not saying it doesn't exist, just that I have never
seen such. Are you talking about a user applied material like
contact "paper"?

To get a smooth painted surface, two things are necessary...
1. The surface being painted has to be smooth
2. The paint has to be appied evenly and it must "self level".
As paint dries it shrinks to conform to the surface under it; if
that surface was smooth, the paint surface will be too; if that
surface was rough, the paint surface will be too.

There are two ways to get a smooth, paintable surface...
1. sand down all high spots to the level of the lowest low spot
2. fill all the low spots to at least the height of the highest
high spot

Particle board by its nature won't sand to a really smooth surface.
It *WILL* sand to a much smoother one than that evidenced in your
photos.

All fillers consist of a finally ground material - usually mineral -
mixed with a binder. What those materials are and their relative
proportions determine how well it fills and how well it sands. Most
primers are also modest fillers because of their relatively high
(for paint) mineral content. International paint used to make a
really great one...thick bodied, dried in an hour, sanded to dust.
Last time I looked 10 or more years ago it was $120+ a gallon.

Drywall mud is calcium carbonate bound with starch. It is cheap,
readily available and - when dry - sands very well. It would be
very easy to turn your moonscape particle board surface into a
smooth one with drywall mud...
1. Trowel on a layer covering the entire board
2. Let dry completely
3. Sand with #150 or finer paper. Ideally, you want a thin very
layer left on the highest spots after sanding.
4. Seal the surface
5. Top coat

You could use Bondo rather than drywall mud; however, it is much more
expensive, more difficult to use and apply and harder to sand.

You could use plaster of Paris. It is the same as setting drywall
mud and is also harder to sand (than is drying drywall mud).

You could make your own filler using talc, pumice, whiting or
similar as the filler and clear acrylic, lacquer or varnish as the
binder. Talc and lacquer work well, takes a while to dry.

Use the product that is MADE for the job. It is called fast-build
primer surfacer or "sanding primer".


Judging from his photos, I don't think those would even *begin* to smooth
his particle board. Not without many, many coats at least.
I'll admit I never saw his pictures before responding. What the heck
is that thing??? It would be less work to rebuild it than to refinish
it, I'd say.

"Mike Marlow"wrote:


That surface just needs work!
-------------------------------------------
He is trying to put lipstick on a pig.

Lew

wrote:

I'll admit I never saw his pictures before responding. What the heck
is that thing??? It would be less work to rebuild it than to refinish
it, I'd say.

Pinball machine - or the likes. He's put a lot of time into patching it
together and probably would have been better off just getting new particle
board in the first place, but he's kinda working through it as a project it
seems. Ultimately, I believe he needs to put new vinyl patterns on it, so
it has to be pretty smooth. It's far from smooth right now.

--

-Mike-

On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 21:38:46 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

wrote:

I'll admit I never saw his pictures before responding. What the heck
is that thing??? It would be less work to rebuild it than to refinish
it, I'd say.

Pinball machine - or the likes. He's put a lot of time into patching it
together and probably would have been better off just getting new particle
board in the first place, but he's kinda working through it as a project it
seems. Ultimately, I believe he needs to put new vinyl patterns on it, so
it has to be pretty smooth. It's far from smooth right now.
Simple caseworks - much simpler to just make it from scratch with
good material. Either standard chipboard, MDF, or plywood.

To make it nice and strong and light, frame it up with a stick frame
made of 1/2" baltic ply, (orwhitewood or pine) and cover it with
doorskin ply or hardboard.

Or cover the darn thing with a good laminate like Arborite , or 1/8"
tempered hardboard (masonite).

On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 15:47:11 -0500, "dadiOH"
wrote:

wrote:

Use the product that is MADE for the job. It is called fast-build
primer surfacer or "sanding primer".


Judging from his photos, I don't think those would even *begin* to smooth
his particle board. Not without many, many coats at least.

Half the roughness appears to be the adhesive left from the contact
paper. Sanding that off is near to impossible. BTDT, struck out.

--
With every experience, you alone are painting your
own canvas, thought by thought, choice by choice.
-- Oprah Winfrey

On Thursday, January 24, 2013 10:26:12 PM UTC-5, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 15:47:11 -0500, "dadiOH" wrote: wrote: Use the product that is MADE for the job. It is called fast-build primer surfacer or "sanding primer". Judging from his photos, I don't think those would even *begin* to smooth his particle board. Not without many, many coats at least. Half the roughness appears to be the adhesive left from the contact paper. Sanding that off is near to impossible. BTDT, struck out.

No actually the "rough" areas are where there is the least adhesive. Pulling the original vinyl off took with it miceoscopic particles of the particle board leaving behind the relatively rough areas. The relativiely smooth areas actually have more adhesive residue left behind.

The pics where taken on the Macro setting. So I guess it looks worse than it is.

I tried the drywall mud a couple more times and it is really difficult not sanding too much back off. By the time I get the ridges down the "rough" areas start to show again. (I'm about to give it another shot).

Hand sanding is too work intensive so I've been trying my orbital and also my finishing sanders.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

wrote in message
...

I tried the drywall mud a couple more times and it is really difficult not
sanding too much back off. By the time I get the ridges down the "rough"
areas start to show again. (I'm about to give it another shot).

Hand sanding is too work intensive so I've been trying my orbital and also
my finishing sanders.

The problem is likely the difference in hardness between the joint compound
and the "wood" and having a relatively soft backer behind the sandpaper on
the power tool. It's not much different from what happens when sanding fast
growing pine in that the hard annular rings stand proud of the softer areas
between them after sanding. It is for this very reason that I use plaster
of Paris, not drywall compound, as a surfacer/filler. Plaster is harder and
closer to the "wood" density than is drywall compound. Using a thin coat of
plaster, a relatively long sanding block, and hand sanding would be the way
to get a flat smooth surface. Starting out with power sanding and finishing
by hand is viable too. Yes it might take longer than using power sanding
alone but how many times do you want do to it? With oil based clear finishes
this works well as the plaster becomes translucent and disappears. Drywall
compound does not yield a similar appearance under clear oil finishes in my
experience as it has more than just plaster with water in it. Under sanded
primer and paint it yields a very fine finish.

An alternative that works reasonably well is to use the drywall compound,
sand it to nearly finished, apply thinned polyurethane or dewaxed shellac as
a sanding sealer to firm up the compound, and then finish the sanding by
hand. This works pretty well under sanded primer and paint but I'd not use
clear oil finish on it.

John

On Sat, 9 Feb 2013 13:25:19 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Thursday, January 24, 2013 10:26:12 PM UTC-5, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 15:47:11 -0500, "dadiOH" wrote: wrote: Use the product that is MADE for the job. It is called fast-build primer surfacer or "sanding primer". Judging from his photos, I don't think those would even *begin* to smooth his particle board. Not without many, many coats at least. Half the roughness appears to be the adhesive left from the contact paper. Sanding that off is near to impossible. BTDT, struck out.

No actually the "rough" areas are where there is the least adhesive. Pulling the original vinyl off took with it miceoscopic particles of the particle board leaving behind the relatively rough areas. The relativiely smooth areas actually have more adhesive residue left behind.

The pics where taken on the Macro setting. So I guess it looks worse than it is.

I tried the drywall mud a couple more times and it is really difficult not sanding too much back off. By the time I get the ridges down the "rough" areas start to show again. (I'm about to give it another shot).

Hand sanding is too work intensive so I've been trying my orbital and also my finishing sanders.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.
If you are going to use the mud, the only really effective way to sand
it is manually with a samding board. Use half sheet sanding screen -
120 grit. Half sheet long ways.