My wife wants new curtains in the living room, and wants me to cut out
special shaped brackets for the curtains. They will basically be half
oval with additional wood to attach each bracket to the wall.

To cut the half ovals the grains would be both horizontal and vertical
across the oval, so it seems there would be no way to maximize the grain
to minimize splits.

Can some one recommend the best wood for this application or a technique
to minimize splitting.

On 9/6/2012 4:54 PM, Keith Nuttle wrote:
My wife wants new curtains in the living room, and wants me to cut out
special shaped brackets for the curtains. They will basically be half
oval with additional wood to attach each bracket to the wall.

To cut the half ovals the grains would be both horizontal and vertical
across the oval, so it seems there would be no way to maximize the grain
to minimize splits.
....

Can't really visualize what your brackets really are, but clearly ply
would be the most stable/strong of a given thickness that wouldn't be
terribly bulky. Use a paper-backed edging veneer to cover the edge(s)...

If solid, any of the hardwoods would undoubtedly be sufficiently strong
unless these are really heavy drapes or somesuch...just stay away from
the common framing lumber pines, cedar, etc., they're the ones that are
most prone to split along a grain line w/o much provocation.

Again, pictures would undoubtedly help, even if it's just an example of
what SWMBO thinks she wants...

--

On 9/6/2012 5:54 PM, Keith Nuttle wrote:
My wife wants new curtains in the living room, and wants me to cut out
special shaped brackets for the curtains. They will basically be half
oval with additional wood to attach each bracket to the wall.

To cut the half ovals the grains would be both horizontal and vertical
across the oval, so it seems there would be no way to maximize the grain
to minimize splits.

Can some one recommend the best wood for this application or a technique
to minimize splitting.
Ply... resaw you desired wood and veneer it to the faces and to the edging.

On Thu, 06 Sep 2012 17:54:39 -0400, Keith Nuttle
wrote:

My wife wants new curtains in the living room, and wants me to cut out
special shaped brackets for the curtains. They will basically be half
oval with additional wood to attach each bracket to the wall.

To cut the half ovals the grains would be both horizontal and vertical
across the oval, so it seems there would be no way to maximize the grain
to minimize splits.

Can some one recommend the best wood for this application or a technique
to minimize splitting.
Plywood. With edge tape to hide the ugly end-grain.

wrote:

Plywood. With edge tape to hide the ugly end-grain.

+1

--
www.ewoodshop.com

In article , Keith Nuttle
wrote:

To cut the half ovals the grains would be both horizontal and vertical
across the oval

??? I don't understand. If you draw an oval on a piece of wood, does
the orientation of the grain not depend on which way you cut it in half
(assuming the cut edge is against the wall)?

What am I missing?

But plywood is a good answer to any strength issue as long as you don't
want something more interesting than maple, birch, oak, etc.

--
Woodworking and more at http://www.woodenwabbits.com

On 9/6/2012 10:00 PM, Dave Balderstone wrote:
In article , Keith Nuttle
wrote:

To cut the half ovals the grains would be both horizontal and vertical
across the oval

??? I don't understand. If you draw an oval on a piece of wood, does
the orientation of the grain not depend on which way you cut it in half
(assuming the cut edge is against the wall)?

What am I missing?

But plywood is a good answer to any strength issue as long as you don't
want something more interesting than maple, birch, oak, etc.


The thought was to draw the oval on the flat surface of the wood, and
then cut the bracket out. This would cause the gran to be
perpendicular to the plan of the oval.

I like the plywood idea and if there is no way out I will cut all 14 of
them from one piece of plywood and laminate.

Keith Nuttle wrote:


The thought was to draw the oval on the flat surface of the wood, and
then cut the bracket out. This would cause the gran to be
perpendicular to the plan of the oval.


Why Keith? Why not cut it so the grain is parallel?

--

-Mike-

On Thu, 06 Sep 2012 22:41:41 -0400, Keith Nuttle
wrote:



The thought was to draw the oval on the flat surface of the wood, and
then cut the bracket out. This would cause the gran to be
perpendicular to the plan of the oval.

I like the plywood idea and if there is no way out I will cut all 14 of
them from one piece of plywood and laminate.

Use wood half the thickness you want. Cut 14 blanks with the grain in
one direction, cut 14 blanks with the grain in the opposite, glue
together and cut the shape.

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Thu, 06 Sep 2012 22:41:41 -0400, Keith Nuttle
wrote:



The thought was to draw the oval on the flat surface of the wood, and
then cut the bracket out. This would cause the gran to be
perpendicular to the plan of the oval.

I like the plywood idea and if there is no way out I will cut all 14
of them from one piece of plywood and laminate.

Use wood half the thickness you want. Cut 14 blanks with the grain in
one direction, cut 14 blanks with the grain in the opposite, glue
together and cut the shape.

That would only result in... plywood, which has already been suggested.

Didn't we all cut out shelf brackets way back in high school? Usually
(probably) out of pine. Those brackets had to deal with the grain in both
directions - and they just worked. Not sure why this is such a complex
issue.

--

-Mike-

On 9/6/2012 10:46 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Keith Nuttle wrote:


The thought was to draw the oval on the flat surface of the wood, and
then cut the bracket out. This would cause the gran to be
perpendicular to the plan of the oval.


Why Keith? Why not cut it so the grain is parallel?

because as you cut around the curve of the circle the grain will go from
parallel to perpendicular.

"Keith Nuttle" wrote in message
...
On 9/6/2012 10:46 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Keith Nuttle wrote:


The thought was to draw the oval on the flat surface of the wood, and
then cut the bracket out. This would cause the gran to be
perpendicular to the plan of the oval.


Why Keith? Why not cut it so the grain is parallel?

because as you cut around the curve of the circle the grain will go from
parallel to perpendicular

Unless you center it on a large knot around which the grain flows. ;~)

John

On 9/7/2012 9:38 AM, John Grossbohlin wrote:

"Keith Nuttle" wrote in message
...
On 9/6/2012 10:46 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Keith Nuttle wrote:


The thought was to draw the oval on the flat surface of the wood, and
then cut the bracket out. This would cause the gran to be
perpendicular to the plan of the oval.


Why Keith? Why not cut it so the grain is parallel?

because as you cut around the curve of the circle the grain will go
from parallel to perpendicular

Unless you center it on a large knot around which the grain flows. ;~)

John


That is a good idea, as I could then knock the knot out and not have as
much cutting ;~)

In article , Keith Nuttle
wrote:

On 9/6/2012 10:46 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Keith Nuttle wrote:


The thought was to draw the oval on the flat surface of the wood, and
then cut the bracket out. This would cause the gran to be
perpendicular to the plan of the oval.


Why Keith? Why not cut it so the grain is parallel?

because as you cut around the curve of the circle the grain will go from
parallel to perpendicular.

I'm sitting here looking at a piece of maple with a circle drawn on it.

Grain is oriented north-south. I bisect that circle with a line running
north-south. All the grain in both halves runs parallel to the flat
edge.

I bisect that circle with a line running east-west, and rotate the hald
90 degrees so the flat is oriented with the previous, north-south, flat
edge. ALL the grain in both halves runs perpendicular to the flat edge.

So I can align the grain in any direction I choose. QED.

I still can't understand the issue you are describing, where you end up
with a mix of grain direction.

Keith Nuttle wrote:
On 9/6/2012 10:46 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Keith Nuttle wrote:


The thought was to draw the oval on the flat surface of the wood,
and then cut the bracket out. This would cause the gran to be
perpendicular to the plan of the oval.


Why Keith? Why not cut it so the grain is parallel?

because as you cut around the curve of the circle the grain will go
from parallel to perpendicular.

The same is true if you don't cut it at all...there are two sides (parallel
to grain) and two ends (perpendicular to grain).

Frankly, I think you are worrying about nothing. I think you could use
*any* wood without having to worry about the weight of the rod and curtain
material splitting the brackets.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Maybe just ready for a change? Check it out...
http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On 9/7/2012 10:16 AM, Dave Balderstone wrote:
In article , Keith Nuttle
wrote:

On 9/6/2012 10:46 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Keith Nuttle wrote:


The thought was to draw the oval on the flat surface of the wood, and
then cut the bracket out. This would cause the gran to be
perpendicular to the plan of the oval.


Why Keith? Why not cut it so the grain is parallel?

because as you cut around the curve of the circle the grain will go from
parallel to perpendicular.

I'm sitting here looking at a piece of maple with a circle drawn on it.

Grain is oriented north-south. I bisect that circle with a line running
north-south. All the grain in both halves runs parallel to the flat
edge.

I bisect that circle with a line running east-west, and rotate the hald
90 degrees so the flat is oriented with the previous, north-south, flat
edge. ALL the grain in both halves runs perpendicular to the flat edge.

So I can align the grain in any direction I choose. QED.

I still can't understand the issue you are describing, where you end up
with a mix of grain direction.

If you do not look at the surface but the ends as you rotate the board,
you will see that in one direction you are looking at the end grain and
in the other you are looking at the side of the grain. Or across the
grain in the first orientation and parallel to the grain in the other.

My concern is the bracket piece when the endgrain is visble on the side
of the cut out bracket.

"Keith Nuttle" wrote in message
...
My wife wants new curtains in the living room, and wants me to cut out
special shaped brackets for the curtains. They will basically be half
oval with additional wood to attach each bracket to the wall.

To cut the half ovals the grains would be both horizontal and vertical
across the oval, so it seems there would be no way to maximize the grain
to minimize splits.

Can some one recommend the best wood for this application or a technique
to minimize splitting.

Elm would be good with it's intertwined grain structure.

If the weight of the window treatments suggest to you that splitting may be
a problem... Assuming an elongated oval, ignore the grain orientation of the
sawyer's work (i.e., grain orientation relative to sawn edges) and rotate a
pattern of your oval (either clear or the negative of what you want, e.g.,
the hole left from cutting out the bracket) over the board so that the grain
follows the lower half of the curve as close as you can. The top of the
curve would then show end grain and the bottom would show long grain. This
in effect angles the grain so it acts like an angled bracket.

John

Keith Nuttle wrote:
On 9/6/2012 10:46 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Keith Nuttle wrote:


The thought was to draw the oval on the flat surface of the wood,
and then cut the bracket out. This would cause the gran to be
perpendicular to the plan of the oval.


Why Keith? Why not cut it so the grain is parallel?

because as you cut around the curve of the circle the grain will go
from parallel to perpendicular.

Correct - so it will be predominantly in one of those directions or the
other, depending on how you start the orientation out. It's an oval, so one
direction will prevail over the other.

--

-Mike-

In article , Keith Nuttle
wrote:

My concern is the bracket piece when the endgrain is visble on the side
of the cut out bracket

Ah. Gotcha. Then I would definitely use plywood with an edge banding.

Your original post said nothing about appearance, only strength
splitting, so that's where I misunderstood.

Thanks for the clarification.

djb

On Fri, 07 Sep 2012 08:16:43 -0600, Dave Balderstone
wrote:

In article , Keith Nuttle
wrote:

On 9/6/2012 10:46 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Keith Nuttle wrote:


The thought was to draw the oval on the flat surface of the wood, and
then cut the bracket out. This would cause the gran to be
perpendicular to the plan of the oval.


Why Keith? Why not cut it so the grain is parallel?

because as you cut around the curve of the circle the grain will go from
parallel to perpendicular.

I'm sitting here looking at a piece of maple with a circle drawn on it.

Grain is oriented north-south. I bisect that circle with a line running
north-south. All the grain in both halves runs parallel to the flat
edge.

I bisect that circle with a line running east-west, and rotate the hald
90 degrees so the flat is oriented with the previous, north-south, flat
edge. ALL the grain in both halves runs perpendicular to the flat edge.

So I can align the grain in any direction I choose. QED.

I still can't understand the issue you are describing, where you end up
with a mix of grain direction.


if the grain runs horrizontal it will be weak in the vertical plane.
If the grain runs vertical it will be weak in the horizontal plane,
and if it runs on the bias it will be weak in both planes. So either
the bracket will split horizontally from the forces exerted by the rod
and gravity, or it will split vertically from any other forces exerted
on the bracket by the rod.

The only realistic solution other than plywood with an edge banding is
to use hardwood and drill across the grain to install dowelling to
re-enforce the cross-grain.

On Fri, 7 Sep 2012 10:37:52 -0400, "dadiOH"
wrote:

Keith Nuttle wrote:
On 9/6/2012 10:46 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Keith Nuttle wrote:


The thought was to draw the oval on the flat surface of the wood,
and then cut the bracket out. This would cause the gran to be
perpendicular to the plan of the oval.


Why Keith? Why not cut it so the grain is parallel?

because as you cut around the curve of the circle the grain will go
from parallel to perpendicular.

The same is true if you don't cut it at all...there are two sides (parallel
to grain) and two ends (perpendicular to grain).

Frankly, I think you are worrying about nothing. I think you could use
*any* wood without having to worry about the weight of the rod and curtain
material splitting the brackets.
Certainly not cedar - and I wouldn't trust spruce either. Maple,
Mahogany, oak, birch, and most other hardwoods would stand a fair
chance - but drilling across grain and gluing in dowells would improve
the durability of any hardwood significantly.

wrote:


if the grain runs horrizontal it will be weak in the vertical plane.
If the grain runs vertical it will be weak in the horizontal plane,
and if it runs on the bias it will be weak in both planes. So either
the bracket will split horizontally from the forces exerted by the rod
and gravity, or it will split vertically from any other forces exerted
on the bracket by the rod.

Well... that depends on the weight it is holding. It is quite conceivable
that it will not split at all, even holding a substantial curtain.


The only realistic solution other than plywood with an edge banding is
to use hardwood and drill across the grain to install dowelling to
re-enforce the cross-grain.

I disagree. There are too many different styles of brackets out there which
have survived for too many years, to say that the only realistic solution is
name it.

--

-Mike-

On Fri, 7 Sep 2012 22:16:48 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

wrote:


if the grain runs horrizontal it will be weak in the vertical plane.
If the grain runs vertical it will be weak in the horizontal plane,
and if it runs on the bias it will be weak in both planes. So either
the bracket will split horizontally from the forces exerted by the rod
and gravity, or it will split vertically from any other forces exerted
on the bracket by the rod.

Well... that depends on the weight it is holding. It is quite conceivable
that it will not split at all, even holding a substantial curtain.


The only realistic solution other than plywood with an edge banding is
to use hardwood and drill across the grain to install dowelling to
re-enforce the cross-grain.

I disagree. There are too many different styles of brackets out there which
have survived for too many years, to say that the only realistic solution is
name it.
Forget that it's a bracket. IF splitting is an issue - and we do not
know for sure that it is or will be, cross doweling it is a well
proven method of preventing the splitting. It is, if not THE only
realistic solution, certainly one of the few simple effective
solutions.

wrote:

Forget that it's a bracket. IF splitting is an issue - and we do not
know for sure that it is or will be, cross doweling it is a well
proven method of preventing the splitting. It is, if not THE only
realistic solution, certainly one of the few simple effective
solutions.

Agreed - but wasn't the original question realting to a bracket?

--

-Mike-

On Fri, 07 Sep 2012 08:16:43 -0600, Dave Balderstone
wrote:




I'm sitting here looking at a piece of maple with a circle drawn on it.

Grain is oriented north-south. I bisect that circle with a line running
north-south. All the grain in both halves runs parallel to the flat
edge.

I bisect that circle with a line running east-west, and rotate the hald
90 degrees so the flat is oriented with the previous, north-south, flat
edge. ALL the grain in both halves runs perpendicular to the flat edge.

So I can align the grain in any direction I choose. QED.

I still can't understand the issue you are describing, where you end up
with a mix of grain direction.

Maybe he is in the southern hemisphere where the grain runs opposite.

On Fri, 7 Sep 2012 22:59:44 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

wrote:

Forget that it's a bracket. IF splitting is an issue - and we do not
know for sure that it is or will be, cross doweling it is a well
proven method of preventing the splitting. It is, if not THE only
realistic solution, certainly one of the few simple effective
solutions.

Agreed - but wasn't the original question realting to a bracket?
Yes - but the principal is valid even if it is NOT a bracket - which
means it is still valid for a bracket IF splitting is an issue on the
bracket design in question.

wrote:
On Fri, 7 Sep 2012 22:59:44 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

wrote:

Forget that it's a bracket. IF splitting is an issue - and we do
not know for sure that it is or will be, cross doweling it is a well
proven method of preventing the splitting. It is, if not THE only
realistic solution, certainly one of the few simple effective
solutions.

Agreed - but wasn't the original question realting to a bracket?
Yes - but the principal is valid even if it is NOT a bracket - which
means it is still valid for a bracket IF splitting is an issue on the
bracket design in question.

Agreed (again). Maybe you just didn't notice that I had agreed with that
point.

--

-Mike-