Making an urn from 3/4" thick cherry I got from Rockler months ago. Cut 4
pieces 6" wide x 12" long. Set the old 10" Freud blade on the Craftsman
(direct-drive) table saw to 45 degrees, and rip-mitre each 12" length, leaving
a top tiny bit un-mitred so I can turn the work piece around and rip-mitre the
other side.

The cuts were done very slowly and very carefully. No problem with the
45 degree angle, but the 45 degree 'surface' is a little wavy. Put
another way, the 45 degree cut was very close to, but not quite
s-t-r-a-i-g-h-t.

If I'm ever going to use this approach again, I gotta figure what went
wrong. Obvious candidates for culprit a

1.) My hands, i.e. if I let the piece float up above the TS surface.
2.) The table saw.
3.) The blade.

I very carefully 'greased' each piece with wax-paper and held them as
steady as possible when cutting, so I sorta doubt that 1.) was the
problem.

The old 10" Freud (maybe 60-t) blade wobbles a tad, but it generally looks
pretty solid. If it flexed a little while under load, that would explain it.

How to test? Other possibilities??

Peetie

"Peetie Wheatstraw" wrote in message
...

Making an urn from 3/4" thick cherry I got from Rockler months ago. Cut 4
pieces 6" wide x 12" long. Set the old 10" Freud blade on the Craftsman
(direct-drive) table saw to 45 degrees, and rip-mitre each 12" length,
leaving
a top tiny bit un-mitred so I can turn the work piece around and rip-mitre
the
other side.

The cuts were done very slowly and very carefully. No problem with the
45 degree angle, but the 45 degree 'surface' is a little wavy. Put
another way, the 45 degree cut was very close to, but not quite
s-t-r-a-i-g-h-t.

If I'm ever going to use this approach again, I gotta figure what went
wrong. Obvious candidates for culprit a

1.) My hands, i.e. if I let the piece float up above the TS surface.
2.) The table saw.
3.) The blade.

I very carefully 'greased' each piece with wax-paper and held them as
steady as possible when cutting, so I sorta doubt that 1.) was the
problem.

The old 10" Freud (maybe 60-t) blade wobbles a tad, but it generally looks
pretty solid. If it flexed a little while under load, that would explain
it.

How to test? Other possibilities??

End play in the arbor (shaft) is a possibility in that the blade could be
moving "in and out."

Another possibility, that typically shows up with short boards, is that the
fence is a bit wavy and the board was following the wave.

As an aside, I recall using an inexpensive Black and Decker circular saw
with a jig to cut roof truss parts one time many years ago and the cuts were
wavy.... finally figured out it was end play in the arbor that was the
cause. Using the same jig with a Porter Cable circular saw and the cuts were
flawless. Such a condition with a Craftsman direct drive saw would not
surprise me at all.

John

In article ,
says...

"Peetie Wheatstraw" wrote in message
...

Making an urn from 3/4" thick cherry I got from Rockler months ago. Cut 4
pieces 6" wide x 12" long. Set the old 10" Freud blade on the Craftsman
(direct-drive) table saw to 45 degrees, and rip-mitre each 12" length,
leaving
a top tiny bit un-mitred so I can turn the work piece around and rip-mitre
the
other side.

The cuts were done very slowly and very carefully. No problem with the
45 degree angle, but the 45 degree 'surface' is a little wavy. Put
another way, the 45 degree cut was very close to, but not quite
s-t-r-a-i-g-h-t.

If I'm ever going to use this approach again, I gotta figure what went
wrong. Obvious candidates for culprit a

1.) My hands, i.e. if I let the piece float up above the TS surface.
2.) The table saw.
3.) The blade.

I very carefully 'greased' each piece with wax-paper and held them as
steady as possible when cutting, so I sorta doubt that 1.) was the
problem.

The old 10" Freud (maybe 60-t) blade wobbles a tad, but it generally looks
pretty solid. If it flexed a little while under load, that would explain
it.

How to test? Other possibilities??

End play in the arbor (shaft) is a possibility in that the blade could be
moving "in and out."

Another possibility, that typically shows up with short boards, is that the
fence is a bit wavy and the board was following the wave.

As an aside, I recall using an inexpensive Black and Decker circular saw
with a jig to cut roof truss parts one time many years ago and the cuts were
wavy.... finally figured out it was end play in the arbor that was the
cause. Using the same jig with a Porter Cable circular saw and the cuts were
flawless. Such a condition with a Craftsman direct drive saw would not
surprise me at all.

John

Arbor end play was also my immediate thought when I read the OP's
message. I suspect that cutting with blade at a 45 degree angle also
tends to aggravate the problem as the blade has more of an opportunity
too waffle around as the cut is in process.

--

Michael Karas
Carousel Design Solutions
http://www.carousel-design.com

On 12/26/2011 4:45 PM, Peetie Wheatstraw wrote:

Making an urn from 3/4" thick cherry I got from Rockler months ago. Cut 4
pieces 6" wide x 12" long. Set the old 10" Freud blade on the Craftsman
(direct-drive) table saw to 45 degrees, and rip-mitre each 12" length, leaving
a top tiny bit un-mitred so I can turn the work piece around and rip-mitre the
other side.

The cuts were done very slowly and very carefully. No problem with the
45 degree angle, but the 45 degree 'surface' is a little wavy. Put
another way, the 45 degree cut was very close to, but not quite
s-t-r-a-i-g-h-t.

If I'm ever going to use this approach again, I gotta figure what went
wrong. Obvious candidates for culprit a

1.) My hands, i.e. if I let the piece float up above the TS surface.
2.) The table saw.
3.) The blade.

I very carefully 'greased' each piece with wax-paper and held them as
steady as possible when cutting, so I sorta doubt that 1.) was the
problem.

The old 10" Freud (maybe 60-t) blade wobbles a tad, but it generally looks
pretty solid. If it flexed a little while under load, that would explain it.

How to test? Other possibilities??

Peetie

If you are using a thin kerf blade it would suspect that first.

On Mon, 26 Dec 2011 20:50:31 -0800, Michael Karas wrote:

End play in the arbor (shaft) is a possibility in that the blade could be
moving "in and out."

Another possibility, that typically shows up with short boards, is that the
fence is a bit wavy and the board was following the wave.

As an aside, I recall using an inexpensive Black and Decker circular saw
with a jig to cut roof truss parts one time many years ago and the cuts were
wavy.... finally figured out it was end play in the arbor that was the
cause. Using the same jig with a Porter Cable circular saw and the cuts were
flawless. Such a condition with a Craftsman direct drive saw would not
surprise me at all.

John

Arbor end play was also my immediate thought when I read the OP's
message. I suspect that cutting with blade at a 45 degree angle also
tends to aggravate the problem as the blade has more of an opportunity
too waffle around as the cut is in process.

There's more of an upward load on the blade when set at 45? Part
of the reason I sorta suspected blade flex.

I checked the arbor: can't find any play whatsoever. Grab the
shaft, push in, pull out, wiggle around, etc etc. Nothing!

Definitely worth checking.

Thx,
Peetie

On 12/26/2011 5:45 PM, Peetie Wheatstraw wrote:


The old 10" Freud (maybe 60-t) blade wobbles a tad, but it generally looks
pretty solid. If it flexed a little while under load, that would explain it.

How to test? Other possibilities??

Peetie

Wobbles a tad? I assume you mean you can see it wobbling as you are
cutting. Does it do the same thing on a 90 degree cross cut? If it
does, it seems to me that you have a bent blade, a bent arbor, arbor
runout or the tilt mechanism has play in it. If it doesn't, I'd suspect
play in the tilt mechanism that is held in check by being jammed against
a stop.

I once had table saw that would crosscut fine if you were working on the
right side of the blade, but make sort of wavy cuts if you worked on the
left. Turned out the table had a small depression on the left side.

Mike

On Tue, 27 Dec 2011 15:16:00 -0500, Mike wrote:

Wobbles a tad? I assume you mean you can see it wobbling as you are
cutting. Does it do the same thing on a 90 degree cross cut? If it
does, it seems to me that you have a bent blade, a bent arbor, arbor
runout or the tilt mechanism has play in it. If it doesn't, I'd suspect
play in the tilt mechanism that is held in check by being jammed against
a stop.

At 90 degrees, if I spin the blade with my finger, it "wobbles a tad".
Put anothre way, the cut that it makes is a tad wider than the
blade. It's been like that for a long time. But everything is
as tight as can be, there is no play.

I see no evidence of the other conditions that you mention.

Peetie

On 12/28/2011 3:36 PM, Peetie Wheatstraw wrote:
On Tue, 27 Dec 2011 15:16:00 -0500, wrote:

Wobbles a tad? I assume you mean you can see it wobbling as you are
cutting. Does it do the same thing on a 90 degree cross cut? If it
does, it seems to me that you have a bent blade, a bent arbor, arbor
runout or the tilt mechanism has play in it. If it doesn't, I'd suspect
play in the tilt mechanism that is held in check by being jammed against
a stop.

At 90 degrees, if I spin the blade with my finger, it "wobbles a tad".
Put anothre way, the cut that it makes is a tad wider than the
blade. It's been like that for a long time. But everything is
as tight as can be, there is no play.

THAT is your problem!





I see no evidence of the other conditions that you mention.

Peetie

On Wed, 28 Dec 2011 15:36:56 -0600, Peetie Wheatstraw wrote:

At 90 degrees, if I spin the blade with my finger, it "wobbles a tad".
Put anothre way, the cut that it makes is a tad wider than the blade.
It's been like that for a long time. But everything is as tight as can
be,

I don't know what a "tad" is to you, but allowable blade runout is a few
thousandths - .01" at most.

My first table saw had a runout problem. I bought a pair of blade
stabilizers and shimmed the one that went on the arbor first with a few
layers of scotch tape. Couldn't get rid of all the runout, but I got it
down to about .005. You might want to try that on your saw.

My current saw is a restored 1947 low end Delta. A 1/8" blade cuts a
1/8" kerf - it has *zero* runout. I should always be so lucky :-).

--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

On Thu, 29 Dec 2011 01:21:43 +0000 (UTC), Larry Blanchard wrote:

I don't know what a "tad" is to you, but allowable blade runout is a few
thousandths - .01" at most.

My first table saw had a runout problem. I bought a pair of blade
stabilizers and shimmed the one that went on the arbor first with a few
layers of scotch tape. Couldn't get rid of all the runout, but I got it
down to about .005. You might want to try that on your saw.

My current saw is a restored 1947 low end Delta. A 1/8" blade cuts a
1/8" kerf - it has *zero* runout. I should always be so lucky :-).

Is any of this relevant? The issue was the blade, at 45 degrees, was -not-
cutting in a perfectly straight line.

I just checked. I don't have a runout gauge, but when I cut a kerf in
wood and place it back on the non-moving blade, there is near zero
wiggle-space. I'm guessing my runout is not much more than yours.

In any event, the damned thing cuts a straight line when blade is
set at 90 degrees.

Peetie

On 12/28/2011 10:56 PM, Peetie Wheatstraw wrote:
On Thu, 29 Dec 2011 01:21:43 +0000 (UTC), Larry wrote:

I don't know what a "tad" is to you, but allowable blade runout is a few
thousandths - .01" at most.

My first table saw had a runout problem. I bought a pair of blade
stabilizers and shimmed the one that went on the arbor first with a few
layers of scotch tape. Couldn't get rid of all the runout, but I got it
down to about .005. You might want to try that on your saw.

My current saw is a restored 1947 low end Delta. A 1/8" blade cuts a
1/8" kerf - it has *zero* runout. I should always be so lucky :-).

Is any of this relevant? The issue was the blade, at 45 degrees, was -not-
cutting in a perfectly straight line.

I just checked. I don't have a runout gauge, but when I cut a kerf in
wood and place it back on the non-moving blade, there is near zero
wiggle-space. I'm guessing my runout is not much more than yours.

In any event, the damned thing cuts a straight line when blade is
set at 90 degrees.

Peetie

Again, is it a narrow kerf blade. Narrow kerf blades have a more
difficult time making a truly flat cut when cutting at angles and bevels.

And near zero wiggle could mean 1/64", which is way too much.

"Leon" wrote in message
...

On 12/28/2011 10:56 PM, Peetie Wheatstraw wrote:
On Thu, 29 Dec 2011 01:21:43 +0000 (UTC), Larry
wrote:

I don't know what a "tad" is to you, but allowable blade runout is a few
thousandths - .01" at most.

My first table saw had a runout problem. I bought a pair of blade
stabilizers and shimmed the one that went on the arbor first with a few
layers of scotch tape. Couldn't get rid of all the runout, but I got it
down to about .005. You might want to try that on your saw.

My current saw is a restored 1947 low end Delta. A 1/8" blade cuts a
1/8" kerf - it has *zero* runout. I should always be so lucky :-).

Is any of this relevant? The issue was the blade, at 45 degrees, was -not-
cutting in a perfectly straight line.

I just checked. I don't have a runout gauge, but when I cut a kerf in
wood and place it back on the non-moving blade, there is near zero
wiggle-space. I'm guessing my runout is not much more than yours.

In any event, the damned thing cuts a straight line when blade is
set at 90 degrees.

Peetie

Again, is it a narrow kerf blade. Narrow kerf blades have a more
difficult time making a truly flat cut when cutting at angles and bevels.

And near zero wiggle could mean 1/64", which is way too much.
================================================== ==============
Depends. That much bearing run out is a problem. If it is just the blade
running out, it won't hurt a thing.

On 12/29/2011 11:34 AM, CW wrote:


"Leon" wrote in message
...

On 12/28/2011 10:56 PM, Peetie Wheatstraw wrote:
On Thu, 29 Dec 2011 01:21:43 +0000 (UTC), Larry
wrote:

I don't know what a "tad" is to you, but allowable blade runout is a few
thousandths - .01" at most.

My first table saw had a runout problem. I bought a pair of blade
stabilizers and shimmed the one that went on the arbor first with a few
layers of scotch tape. Couldn't get rid of all the runout, but I got it
down to about .005. You might want to try that on your saw.

My current saw is a restored 1947 low end Delta. A 1/8" blade cuts a
1/8" kerf - it has *zero* runout. I should always be so lucky :-).

Is any of this relevant? The issue was the blade, at 45 degrees, was
-not-
cutting in a perfectly straight line.

I just checked. I don't have a runout gauge, but when I cut a kerf in
wood and place it back on the non-moving blade, there is near zero
wiggle-space. I'm guessing my runout is not much more than yours.

In any event, the damned thing cuts a straight line when blade is
set at 90 degrees.

Peetie

Again, is it a narrow kerf blade. Narrow kerf blades have a more
difficult time making a truly flat cut when cutting at angles and bevels.

And near zero wiggle could mean 1/64", which is way too much.
================================================== ==============
Depends. That much bearing run out is a problem. If it is just the blade
running out, it won't hurt a thing.
================================================== ==================
CW, You stumped me. If the blade is moving (let's go with 1/64"), how
is it OK if the blade is running out and not OK if the bearing is
running out? I can't imagine how the resulting would be any different.

"Mike" wrote in message ...

On 12/29/2011 11:34 AM, CW wrote:


"Leon" wrote in message
...

On 12/28/2011 10:56 PM, Peetie Wheatstraw wrote:
On Thu, 29 Dec 2011 01:21:43 +0000 (UTC), Larry
wrote:

I don't know what a "tad" is to you, but allowable blade runout is a few
thousandths - .01" at most.

My first table saw had a runout problem. I bought a pair of blade
stabilizers and shimmed the one that went on the arbor first with a few
layers of scotch tape. Couldn't get rid of all the runout, but I got it
down to about .005. You might want to try that on your saw.

My current saw is a restored 1947 low end Delta. A 1/8" blade cuts a
1/8" kerf - it has *zero* runout. I should always be so lucky :-).

Is any of this relevant? The issue was the blade, at 45 degrees, was
-not-
cutting in a perfectly straight line.

I just checked. I don't have a runout gauge, but when I cut a kerf in
wood and place it back on the non-moving blade, there is near zero
wiggle-space. I'm guessing my runout is not much more than yours.

In any event, the damned thing cuts a straight line when blade is
set at 90 degrees.

Peetie

Again, is it a narrow kerf blade. Narrow kerf blades have a more
difficult time making a truly flat cut when cutting at angles and bevels.

And near zero wiggle could mean 1/64", which is way too much.
================================================== ==============
Depends. That much bearing run out is a problem. If it is just the blade
running out, it won't hurt a thing.
================================================== ==================
CW, You stumped me. If the blade is moving (let's go with 1/64"), how
is it OK if the blade is running out and not OK if the bearing is
running out? I can't imagine how the resulting would be any different.
================================================== ===================
The term runout is actually incorrect in the case of axial movement of the
bearing. Correctly, it would be called end shake. This is when the bearing,
due to wear, improper assembly, et can move in the axial direction. There is
nothing restraining that movement so it's position can change during the cut
causing a wavy cut. In the case of blade axial runout (side to side wobble),
it will not change during the cut. Say you have a bent blade causing axial
runout. It does not matter at what point of rotation it is at, it will still
be bent. As long as it is the same on every revolution, it will cut just
fine but the kerf will be wider. Think wobble dado.



Each tooth

On Thu, 29 Dec 2011 11:46:17 -0800, "CW" wrote:

The term runout is actually incorrect in the case of axial movement of the
bearing. Correctly, it would be called end shake. This is when the bearing,
due to wear, improper assembly, et can move in the axial direction. There is
nothing restraining that movement so it's position can change during the cut
causing a wavy cut. In the case of blade axial runout (side to side wobble),
it will not change during the cut. Say you have a bent blade causing axial
runout. It does not matter at what point of rotation it is at, it will still
be bent. As long as it is the same on every revolution, it will cut just
fine but the kerf will be wider. Think wobble dado.

Wider, but still straight (other things remaining equal). Thanks, I needed
that! :-)

Isn't it also possible that blade runout measured unpowered could be much
greater than when powered due to the centrifugal force of the spinning
blade?

Peetie

"Peetie Wheatstraw" wrote in message
...

On Thu, 29 Dec 2011 11:46:17 -0800, "CW" wrote:

The term runout is actually incorrect in the case of axial movement of the
bearing. Correctly, it would be called end shake. This is when the bearing,
due to wear, improper assembly, et can move in the axial direction. There
is
nothing restraining that movement so it's position can change during the
cut
causing a wavy cut. In the case of blade axial runout (side to side
wobble),
it will not change during the cut. Say you have a bent blade causing axial
runout. It does not matter at what point of rotation it is at, it will
still
be bent. As long as it is the same on every revolution, it will cut just
fine but the kerf will be wider. Think wobble dado.

Wider, but still straight (other things remaining equal). Thanks, I needed
that! :-)

Isn't it also possible that blade runout measured unpowered could be much
greater than when powered due to the centrifugal force of the spinning
blade?
================================================== ==================

Yes. This is particularly evident in large blades like used in saw mills.
When at rest, they look decidedly bent. As soon as they are running though,
they straiten right out.

On Thu, 29 Dec 2011 13:50:34 -0800, "CW" wrote:

still
be bent. As long as it is the same on every revolution, it will cut just
fine but the kerf will be wider. Think wobble dado.

Wider, but still straight (other things remaining equal). Thanks, I needed
that! :-)

Isn't it also possible that blade runout measured unpowered could be much
greater than when powered due to the centrifugal force of the spinning
blade?
================================================= ===================

Yes. This is particularly evident in large blades like used in saw mills.
When at rest, they look decidedly bent. As soon as they are running though,
they straiten right out.

It purty much has to be the case with my old Freud blade. Spin it with
my finger and the the runout is obvious, but when I put the kerf that
it just cut over the (still) blade there is little/no runout perceptible.

Thx,
Peetie

"Peetie Wheatstraw" wrote in message
...

Making an urn from 3/4" thick cherry I got from Rockler months ago. Cut 4
pieces 6" wide x 12" long. Set the old 10" Freud blade on the Craftsman
(direct-drive) table saw to 45 degrees, and rip-mitre each 12" length, leaving
a top tiny bit un-mitred so I can turn the work piece around and rip-mitre the
other side.

The cuts were done very slowly and very carefully. No problem with the
45 degree angle, but the 45 degree 'surface' is a little wavy. Put
another way, the 45 degree cut was very close to, but not quite
s-t-r-a-i-g-h-t.

If I'm ever going to use this approach again, I gotta figure what went
wrong. Obvious candidates for culprit a

1.) My hands, i.e. if I let the piece float up above the TS surface.
2.) The table saw.
3.) The blade.

I very carefully 'greased' each piece with wax-paper and held them as
steady as possible when cutting, so I sorta doubt that 1.) was the
problem.

The old 10" Freud (maybe 60-t) blade wobbles a tad, but it generally looks
pretty solid. If it flexed a little while under load, that would explain it.

How to test? Other possibilities??

Peetie

There is another possibility in addition to the ones already posted.
Your saw could be out of alignment. Assuming you have already
got the blade parallel to the miter slots and fence, there is another
adjustment that can cause problems when cutting with the blade
at other than 90 degrees to the table top. The axis that the trunnion
pivots about must be parallel to the table top too. You won't notice
this on 90 degree cuts. If the rear trunnion mounts are lower than
the front then the rear of the blade will be lower and, with the blade
tilted toward the fence, form a funnel that the trapped piece is being
run into. If the front mounts are lower than the board will tend to
wander away from the fence during the cut and could cause the
problem you are seeing.

Details and how to fix are here
http://tablesawalignment.com/blog/?cat=22
You'll probably need to register, but it's free and I've had no
problems with spam coming from his site.
Art

On Thu, 29 Dec 2011 20:52:17 -0800, Artemus wrote:

The axis that the trunnion pivots about must be parallel to the table
top too. You won't notice this on 90 degree cuts.

I had a saw with that problem. Cheap imported contractors saw. I had to
just about totally disassemble it to get to the front trunnion mounts
which is where the shims were needed.

It's a shame that we can't buy a fully assembled saw so we could test it
before it ever left the store.

--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

On Thu, 29 Dec 2011 20:52:17 -0800, "Artemus" wrote:

There is another possibility in addition to the ones already posted.
Your saw could be out of alignment. Assuming you have already
got the blade parallel to the miter slots and fence, there is another
adjustment that can cause problems when cutting with the blade
at other than 90 degrees to the table top. The axis that the trunnion
pivots about must be parallel to the table top too. You won't notice
this on 90 degree cuts. If the rear trunnion mounts are lower than
the front then the rear of the blade will be lower and, with the blade
tilted toward the fence, form a funnel that the trapped piece is being
run into. If the front mounts are lower than the board will tend to
wander away from the fence during the cut and could cause the
problem you are seeing.

Details and how to fix are here
http://tablesawalignment.com/blog/?cat=22
You'll probably need to register, but it's free and I've had no
problems with spam coming from his site.

I registered, looked it over.

What do you think that guage-rig would cost? :-)

There'a gotta be an easier way to test.

Thx,
Peetie

"Peetie Wheatstraw" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 29 Dec 2011 20:52:17 -0800, "Artemus" wrote:

There is another possibility in addition to the ones already posted.
Your saw could be out of alignment. Assuming you have already
got the blade parallel to the miter slots and fence, there is another
adjustment that can cause problems when cutting with the blade
at other than 90 degrees to the table top. The axis that the trunnion
pivots about must be parallel to the table top too. You won't notice
this on 90 degree cuts. If the rear trunnion mounts are lower than
the front then the rear of the blade will be lower and, with the blade
tilted toward the fence, form a funnel that the trapped piece is being
run into. If the front mounts are lower than the board will tend to
wander away from the fence during the cut and could cause the
problem you are seeing.

Details and how to fix are here
http://tablesawalignment.com/blog/?cat=22
You'll probably need to register, but it's free and I've had no
problems with spam coming from his site.

I registered, looked it over.

What do you think that guage-rig would cost? :-)

There'a gotta be an easier way to test.

Thx,
Peetie

Make your own from wood. I did. If you don't have dial indicator -
http://www.harborfreight.com/1-inch-...cator-623.html
is more than adequate for the job, and many others.
Art