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#1
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Baltic birch vs. Poplar for Bathroom Cabinet
I am building a built-in painted cabinet for one of our bathrooms (which
includes a shower). I am planning on using poplar for the face frames but was wondering whether it would be OK to use Baltic Birch for the sides. Specifically, my concern is whether Baltic Birch plywood would be more likely to absorb water and swell/delaminate in a bathroom/shower situation. (Note: there shouldn't be any direct water contact except from steam/humidity and the occassional 'puddling' on the floor that could wick up into the end-grain) Note All surfaces will be primed & painted. |
#2
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Baltic birch vs. Poplar for Bathroom Cabinet
On 12/3/2011 7:58 PM, blueman wrote:
I am planning on using poplar for the face frames but was wondering whether it would be OK to use Baltic Birch for the sides. I would not use poplar for face frames if I could help it. "Poplar" ain't what it used to be and is, IME, problematic from a dimensional stability stand point. Birch, white or red, might be a better choice, IMO. Specifically, my concern is whether Baltic Birch plywood would be more likely to absorb water and swell/delaminate in a bathroom/shower situation. (Note: there shouldn't be any direct water contact except from steam/humidity and the occassional 'puddling' on the floor that could wick up into the end-grain) Note All surfaces will be primed& painted. Nothing wrong with Baltic birch in that environment ...or a good import B2 paint grade birch plywood will do just as well for unseen panel sides for a bit less. -- www.eWoodShop.com Last update: 4/15/2010 KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious) http://gplus.to/eWoodShop |
#3
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Baltic birch vs. Poplar for Bathroom Cabinet
On Sat, 03 Dec 2011 20:58:54 -0500, blueman wrote:
I am building a built-in painted cabinet for one of our bathrooms (which includes a shower). I am planning on using poplar for the face frames but was wondering whether it would be OK to use Baltic Birch for the sides. Specifically, my concern is whether Baltic Birch plywood would be more likely to absorb water and swell/delaminate in a bathroom/shower situation. (Note: there shouldn't be any direct water contact except from steam/humidity and the occassional 'puddling' on the floor that could wick up into the end-grain) Note All surfaces will be primed & painted. I wouldn't worry about it. It's well made plywood and the primer and paint will seal it completely. I wouldn't hesitate to use it. -- Self-development is a higher duty than self-sacrifice. -- Elizabeth Cady Stanton |
#4
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Baltic birch vs. Poplar for Bathroom Cabinet
"Swingman" wrote: I would not use poplar for face frames if I could help it. "Poplar" ain't what it used to be and is, IME, problematic from a dimensional stability stand point. ---------------------------------- Any idea why the current supply of Poplar is not dimensionally stable? Lew |
#5
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Baltic birch vs. Poplar for Bathroom Cabinet
"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
... On Sat, 03 Dec 2011 20:58:54 -0500, blueman wrote: I am building a built-in painted cabinet for one of our bathrooms (which includes a shower). I am planning on using poplar for the face frames but was wondering whether it would be OK to use Baltic Birch for the sides. Specifically, my concern is whether Baltic Birch plywood would be more likely to absorb water and swell/delaminate in a bathroom/shower situation. (Note: there shouldn't be any direct water contact except from steam/humidity and the occassional 'puddling' on the floor that could wick up into the end-grain) Note All surfaces will be primed & painted. I wouldn't worry about it. It's well made plywood and the primer and paint will seal it completely. I wouldn't hesitate to use it. -- Especially since the plywood wouldn't/shouldn't be in direct contact with the floor. Max |
#6
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Baltic birch vs. Poplar for Bathroom Cabinet
"Max" writes:
"Larry Jaques" wrote in message ... On Sat, 03 Dec 2011 20:58:54 -0500, blueman wrote: I am building a built-in painted cabinet for one of our bathrooms (which includes a shower). I am planning on using poplar for the face frames but was wondering whether it would be OK to use Baltic Birch for the sides. Specifically, my concern is whether Baltic Birch plywood would be more likely to absorb water and swell/delaminate in a bathroom/shower situation. (Note: there shouldn't be any direct water contact except from steam/humidity and the occassional 'puddling' on the floor that could wick up into the end-grain) Note All surfaces will be primed & painted. I wouldn't worry about it. It's well made plywood and the primer and paint will seal it completely. I wouldn't hesitate to use it. -- Especially since the plywood wouldn't/shouldn't be in direct contact with the floor. Yes... my plan is to put it on top of a 1.5" base (made of 2x4's) which will be well covered by the 3" molding... |
#7
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Baltic birch vs. Poplar for Bathroom Cabinet
Swingman writes:
On 12/3/2011 7:58 PM, blueman wrote: I am planning on using poplar for the face frames but was wondering whether it would be OK to use Baltic Birch for the sides. I would not use poplar for face frames if I could help it. "Poplar" ain't what it used to be and is, IME, problematic from a dimensional stability stand point. Birch, white or red, might be a better choice, IMO. I didn't realize Poplar wasn't stable... Is this just an issue in humid environments like a bathroom or do you not use poplar at all anymore? Also, Birch seems to be quite pricy - about 3-4 times as expensive as poplar (when bought milled) and almost twice as expensive as oak and more than cherry Seems almost a crime to pay that much for something that will be painted... Is Poplar really that much of an issue? |
#8
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Baltic birch vs. Poplar for Bathroom Cabinet
On 12/3/11 10:32 PM, Max wrote:
"Larry Jaques" wrote in message ... On Sat, 03 Dec 2011 20:58:54 -0500, blueman wrote: I am building a built-in painted cabinet for one of our bathrooms (which includes a shower). I am planning on using poplar for the face frames but was wondering whether it would be OK to use Baltic Birch for the sides. Specifically, my concern is whether Baltic Birch plywood would be more likely to absorb water and swell/delaminate in a bathroom/shower situation. (Note: there shouldn't be any direct water contact except from steam/humidity and the occassional 'puddling' on the floor that could wick up into the end-grain) Note All surfaces will be primed & painted. I wouldn't worry about it. It's well made plywood and the primer and paint will seal it completely. I wouldn't hesitate to use it. -- Especially since the plywood wouldn't/shouldn't be in direct contact with the floor. Max Since when? Why? -- -MIKE- "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life" --Elvin Jones (1927-2004) -- http://mikedrums.com ---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply |
#9
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Baltic birch vs. Poplar for Bathroom Cabinet
blueman wrote:
I am building a built-in painted cabinet for one of our bathrooms (which includes a shower). I am planning on using poplar for the face frames but was wondering whether it would be OK to use Baltic Birch for the sides. Yes. Or any other plywood. -- dadiOH ____________________________ dadiOH's dandies v3.06... ....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that. Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico |
#10
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Baltic birch vs. Poplar for Bathroom Cabinet
Swingman wrote in
: On 12/3/2011 7:58 PM, blueman wrote: I am planning on using poplar for the face frames but was wondering whether it would be OK to use Baltic Birch for the sides. I would not use poplar for face frames if I could help it. "Poplar" ain't what it used to be and is, IME, problematic from a dimensional stability stand point. Birch, white or red, might be a better choice, IMO. Specifically, my concern is whether Baltic Birch plywood would be more likely to absorb water and swell/delaminate in a bathroom/shower situation. (Note: there shouldn't be any direct water contact except from steam/humidity and the occassional 'puddling' on the floor that could wick up into the end-grain) Note All surfaces will be primed& painted. Nothing wrong with Baltic birch in that environment ...or a good import B2 paint grade birch plywood will do just as well for unseen panel sides for a bit less. What about that water resistant green MDF you recently talked about? -- Best regards Han email address is invalid |
#11
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Baltic birch vs. Poplar for Bathroom Cabinet
On 12/3/2011 10:18 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
"Swingman" wrote: I would not use poplar for face frames if I could help it. "Poplar" ain't what it used to be and is, IME, problematic from a dimensional stability stand point. ---------------------------------- Any idea why the current supply of Poplar is not dimensionally stable? Look around you Lew, almost every thing in this country that is tainted by corporate MBAthink is ****, including MOST current products of the lumber industry. Indigenous new growth and/or plantation grown wood, as poplar is wont to be these days, with an unusually high moisture content for a tree to start with, coupled with the corporate MBAthink, equals wood that is inferior and improperly dried for most uses as cabinet/furniture "lumber" ... although great for pulp. Poplar has a high ratio of tangential to radial shrinkage, number one cause drying defects, so how is this handled by the corporate mindset? Ship it over the recommended moisture content and let the consumer worry about it, which means in the end that a high percentage of what is sold and used for cabinets/furniture will eventually exhibit dimensional instability. Basically, and in a sense, poplar has become the hardwood version of new growth fir and pine ... an unacceptable percentage will turn into a pretzel when it reaches equilibrium and not restrained in some manner. I decided a few years ago to no longer waste my time on the wood in any cabinet or furniture project. If you see a paint grade wooden door, or a bowed face frame on a painted cabinet, and it is warped, you can bet it is poplar. Further notable is that not a single door supplier I know will use poplar for paint grade door frames these days, not one! You can't even order it as a door option any longer in this neck of the woods. -- www.eWoodShop.com Last update: 4/15/2010 KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious) http://gplus.to/eWoodShop |
#12
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Baltic birch vs. Poplar for Bathroom Cabinet
On 12/4/2011 6:05 AM, Han wrote:
wrote Nothing wrong with Baltic birch in that environment ...or a good import B2 paint grade birch plywood will do just as well for unseen panel sides for a bit less. What about that water resistant green MDF you recently talked about? I don't make cabinets out of mdf. MDF is much too heavy and does not hold fasteners well enough to stand the test of time. High grade, water resistant MDF in painted doors and drawer fronts in some styles, like European slab doors and drawer fronts, yes. Some things simply work well for a targeted purpose ... like using pocket hole joinery for cabinet face frames. -- www.eWoodShop.com Last update: 4/15/2010 KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious) http://gplus.to/eWoodShop |
#13
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Baltic birch vs. Poplar for Bathroom Cabinet
On 12/3/2011 11:33 PM, blueman wrote:
writes: On 12/3/2011 7:58 PM, bl I would not use poplar for face frames if I could help it. "Poplar" ain't what it used to be and is, IME, problematic from a dimensional stability stand point. Seems almost a crime to pay that much for something that will be painted... Is Poplar really that much of an issue? If price is an issue (not all that much of an investment in the face frame material for one bath cabinet) go with red oak and paint it. -- www.eWoodShop.com Last update: 4/15/2010 KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious) http://gplus.to/eWoodShop |
#14
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Baltic birch vs. Poplar for Bathroom Cabinet
On Sat, 3 Dec 2011 21:32:53 -0700, "Max"
wrote: "Larry Jaques" wrote in message .. . On Sat, 03 Dec 2011 20:58:54 -0500, blueman wrote: I am building a built-in painted cabinet for one of our bathrooms (which includes a shower). I am planning on using poplar for the face frames but was wondering whether it would be OK to use Baltic Birch for the sides. Specifically, my concern is whether Baltic Birch plywood would be more likely to absorb water and swell/delaminate in a bathroom/shower situation. (Note: there shouldn't be any direct water contact except from steam/humidity and the occassional 'puddling' on the floor that could wick up into the end-grain) Note All surfaces will be primed & painted. I wouldn't worry about it. It's well made plywood and the primer and paint will seal it completely. I wouldn't hesitate to use it. -- Especially since the plywood wouldn't/shouldn't be in direct contact with the floor. Yeah, I got a bag of 100 nylon nail-in feet at a garbadj sale and they'll last my lifetime and then some. http://www.componentforce.com/category/313/nail-on-feet like these -- Self-development is a higher duty than self-sacrifice. -- Elizabeth Cady Stanton |
#15
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Baltic birch vs. Poplar for Bathroom Cabinet
Swingman wrote:
On 12/3/2011 10:18 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote: "Swingman" wrote: I would not use poplar for face frames if I could help it. "Poplar" ain't what it used to be and is, IME, problematic from a dimensional stability stand point. ---------------------------------- Any idea why the current supply of Poplar is not dimensionally stable? Look around you Lew, almost every thing in this country that is tainted by corporate MBAthink is ****, including MOST current products of the lumber industry. Indigenous new growth and/or plantation grown wood, as poplar is wont to be these days, with an unusually high moisture content for a tree to start with, coupled with the corporate MBAthink, equals wood that is inferior and improperly dried for most uses as cabinet/furniture "lumber" ... although great for pulp. Poplar has a high ratio of tangential to radial shrinkage, number one cause drying defects, so how is this handled by the corporate mindset? Ship it over the recommended moisture content and let the consumer worry about it, which means in the end that a high percentage of what is sold and used for cabinets/furniture will eventually exhibit dimensional instability. Basically, and in a sense, poplar has become the hardwood version of new growth fir and pine ... an unacceptable percentage will turn into a pretzel when it reaches equilibrium and not restrained in some manner. I decided a few years ago to no longer waste my time on the wood in any cabinet or furniture project. If you see a paint grade wooden door, or a bowed face frame on a painted cabinet, and it is warped, you can bet it is poplar. Further notable is that not a single door supplier I know will use poplar for paint grade door frames these days, not one! You can't even order it as a door option any longer in this neck of the woods. I no longer use Poplar. My choice in California is Soft Maple. -- "You can lead them to LINUX but you can't make them THINK" Man. 2010.1 Spring KDE4.4 2.6.33.5-desktop-2mnb |
#16
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Baltic birch vs. Poplar for Bathroom Cabinet
"-MIKE-" wrote in message
... On 12/3/11 10:32 PM, Max wrote: "Larry Jaques" wrote in message ... On Sat, 03 Dec 2011 20:58:54 -0500, blueman wrote: I am building a built-in painted cabinet for one of our bathrooms (which includes a shower). I am planning on using poplar for the face frames but was wondering whether it would be OK to use Baltic Birch for the sides. Specifically, my concern is whether Baltic Birch plywood would be more likely to absorb water and swell/delaminate in a bathroom/shower situation. (Note: there shouldn't be any direct water contact except from steam/humidity and the occassional 'puddling' on the floor that could wick up into the end-grain) Note All surfaces will be primed & painted. I wouldn't worry about it. It's well made plywood and the primer and paint will seal it completely. I wouldn't hesitate to use it. -- Especially since the plywood wouldn't/shouldn't be in direct contact with the floor. Max Since when? Why? -- -MIKE- "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life" --Elvin Jones (1927-2004) -- http://mikedrums.com ---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply The cabinet "should" set on a base. (That's how I've always built mine; YMMV) Max |
#17
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Baltic birch vs. Poplar for Bathroom Cabinet
Max wrote:
"-MIKE-" wrote in message ... On 12/3/11 10:32 PM, Max wrote: "Larry Jaques" wrote in message ... On Sat, 03 Dec 2011 20:58:54 -0500, blueman wrote: I am building a built-in painted cabinet for one of our bathrooms (which includes a shower). I am planning on using poplar for the face frames but was wondering whether it would be OK to use Baltic Birch for the sides. Specifically, my concern is whether Baltic Birch plywood would be more likely to absorb water and swell/delaminate in a bathroom/shower situation. (Note: there shouldn't be any direct water contact except from steam/humidity and the occassional 'puddling' on the floor that could wick up into the end-grain) Note All surfaces will be primed & painted. I wouldn't worry about it. It's well made plywood and the primer and paint will seal it completely. I wouldn't hesitate to use it. -- Especially since the plywood wouldn't/shouldn't be in direct contact with the floor. Max Since when? Why? -- -MIKE- "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life" --Elvin Jones (1927-2004) -- http://mikedrums.com ---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply The cabinet "should" set on a base. (That's how I've always built mine; YMMV) Max Yes, and isn't that called a Toe Kick??? -- "You can lead them to LINUX but you can't make them THINK" Man. 2010.1 Spring KDE4.4 2.6.33.5-desktop-2mnb |
#18
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Baltic birch vs. Poplar for Bathroom Cabinet
On Sat, 03 Dec 2011 20:58:54 -0500, blueman wrote:
Specifically, my concern is whether Baltic Birch plywood would be more likely to absorb water and swell/delaminate in a bathroom/shower situation. It's my understanding that "Finnish Birch" is the same as "Baltic Birch" except the FB uses exterior glue and the BB does not. You might want to consider the FB. -- Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw |
#19
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Baltic birch vs. Poplar for Bathroom Cabinet
On 12/4/2011 11:33 AM, Rich wrote:
I no longer use Poplar. My choice in California is Soft Maple. That'll work just fine ... smart man! Most folks just look at the upfront costs ... those who do it for a living look at the long term costs of callbacks that come from not using a suitable material in the first place. -- www.eWoodShop.com Last update: 4/15/2010 KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious) http://gplus.to/eWoodShop |
#20
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Baltic birch vs. Poplar for Bathroom Cabinet
On 12/4/11 6:05 AM, Han wrote:
wrote in : On 12/3/2011 7:58 PM, blueman wrote: I am planning on using poplar for the face frames but was wondering whether it would be OK to use Baltic Birch for the sides. I would not use poplar for face frames if I could help it. "Poplar" ain't what it used to be and is, IME, problematic from a dimensional stability stand point. Birch, white or red, might be a better choice, IMO. Specifically, my concern is whether Baltic Birch plywood would be more likely to absorb water and swell/delaminate in a bathroom/shower situation. (Note: there shouldn't be any direct water contact except from steam/humidity and the occassional 'puddling' on the floor that could wick up into the end-grain) Note All surfaces will be primed& painted. Nothing wrong with Baltic birch in that environment ...or a good import B2 paint grade birch plywood will do just as well for unseen panel sides for a bit less. What about that water resistant green MDF you recently talked about? Unless these are being installed on the back deck or in a sauna, plain old plywood is going to be fine. -- -MIKE- "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life" --Elvin Jones (1927-2004) -- http://mikedrums.com ---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply |
#21
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Baltic birch vs. Poplar for Bathroom Cabinet
Swingman wrote:
On 12/4/2011 11:33 AM, Rich wrote: I no longer use Poplar. My choice in California is Soft Maple. That'll work just fine ... smart man! Most folks just look at the upfront costs ... those who do it for a living look at the long term costs of callbacks that come from not using a suitable material in the first place. Well like you, I'm in the business. And have seen what has happened to Poplar. My supplier won't even offer it for sale. -- "You can lead them to LINUX but you can't make them THINK" Man. 2010.1 Spring KDE4.4 2.6.33.5-desktop-2mnb |
#22
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Baltic birch vs. Poplar for Bathroom Cabinet
On 12/4/11 11:47 AM, Rich wrote:
Max wrote: wrote in message ... On 12/3/11 10:32 PM, Max wrote: "Larry wrote in message ... On Sat, 03 Dec 2011 20:58:54 -0500, wrote: I am building a built-in painted cabinet for one of our bathrooms (which includes a shower). I am planning on using poplar for the face frames but was wondering whether it would be OK to use Baltic Birch for the sides. Specifically, my concern is whether Baltic Birch plywood would be more likely to absorb water and swell/delaminate in a bathroom/shower situation. (Note: there shouldn't be any direct water contact except from steam/humidity and the occassional 'puddling' on the floor that could wick up into the end-grain) Note All surfaces will be primed& painted. I wouldn't worry about it. It's well made plywood and the primer and paint will seal it completely. I wouldn't hesitate to use it. -- Especially since the plywood wouldn't/shouldn't be in direct contact with the floor. Max Since when? Why? -- -MIKE- The cabinet "should" set on a base. (That's how I've always built mine; YMMV) Max Yes, and isn't that called a Toe Kick??? Many toe kicks are cut into the plywood carcass of the cabinet. My question has nothing to do with one's preference or any implicit quality level involved in the choice. My question is directed to the context of the thread which is about water absorbing into the plywood. So, when someone says, "plywood shouldn't be in direct contact with the fly," I ask, why not? -- -MIKE- "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life" --Elvin Jones (1927-2004) -- http://mikedrums.com ---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply |
#23
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Baltic birch vs. Poplar for Bathroom Cabinet
On 12/4/11 12:12 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 12/4/2011 11:33 AM, Rich wrote: I no longer use Poplar. My choice in California is Soft Maple. That'll work just fine ... smart man! Most folks just look at the upfront costs ... those who do it for a living look at the long term costs of callbacks that come from not using a suitable material in the first place. I think it was you who mention beech and birch. Both are a joy to work with, finish very evenly, probably more even than maple... and have a much tighter, smoother grain than oak. -- -MIKE- "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life" --Elvin Jones (1927-2004) -- http://mikedrums.com ---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply |
#24
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Baltic birch vs. Poplar for Bathroom Cabinet
On 12/4/2011 12:58 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 12/4/11 11:47 AM, Rich wrote: Max wrote: wrote in message ... On 12/3/11 10:32 PM, Max wrote: "Larry wrote in message ... On Sat, 03 Dec 2011 20:58:54 -0500, wrote: I am building a built-in painted cabinet for one of our bathrooms (which includes a shower). I am planning on using poplar for the face frames but was wondering whether it would be OK to use Baltic Birch for the sides. Specifically, my concern is whether Baltic Birch plywood would be more likely to absorb water and swell/delaminate in a bathroom/shower situation. (Note: there shouldn't be any direct water contact except from steam/humidity and the occassional 'puddling' on the floor that could wick up into the end-grain) Note All surfaces will be primed& painted. I wouldn't worry about it. It's well made plywood and the primer and paint will seal it completely. I wouldn't hesitate to use it. -- Especially since the plywood wouldn't/shouldn't be in direct contact with the floor. Max Since when? Why? -- -MIKE- The cabinet "should" set on a base. (That's how I've always built mine; YMMV) Max Yes, and isn't that called a Toe Kick??? Many toe kicks are cut into the plywood carcass of the cabinet. My question has nothing to do with one's preference or any implicit quality level involved in the choice. My question is directed to the context of the thread which is about water absorbing into the plywood. So, when someone says, "plywood shouldn't be in direct contact with the fly," I ask, why not? And you're right with new construction and regions where foundations are traditionally laid over a vapor barrier that prevents "wicking" from the surrounding soil into the concrete slab ... once the concrete is cured the moisture content in the concrete is not usually enough to effect the edge of a plywood end panel with a toe kick notch in it, and there is nothing to stop that type of cabinet from sitting on a vapor barrier itself at minimal cost. All bets are off in regions where below grade building; basements, etc, is prevalent. -- www.eWoodShop.com Last update: 4/15/2010 KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious) http://gplus.to/eWoodShop |
#25
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Baltic birch vs. Poplar for Bathroom Cabinet
On 12/4/11 1:44 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 12/4/2011 12:58 PM, -MIKE- wrote: On 12/4/11 11:47 AM, Rich wrote: Max wrote: wrote in message ... On 12/3/11 10:32 PM, Max wrote: "Larry wrote in message ... On Sat, 03 Dec 2011 20:58:54 -0500, wrote: I am building a built-in painted cabinet for one of our bathrooms (which includes a shower). I am planning on using poplar for the face frames but was wondering whether it would be OK to use Baltic Birch for the sides. Specifically, my concern is whether Baltic Birch plywood would be more likely to absorb water and swell/delaminate in a bathroom/shower situation. (Note: there shouldn't be any direct water contact except from steam/humidity and the occassional 'puddling' on the floor that could wick up into the end-grain) Note All surfaces will be primed& painted. I wouldn't worry about it. It's well made plywood and the primer and paint will seal it completely. I wouldn't hesitate to use it. -- Especially since the plywood wouldn't/shouldn't be in direct contact with the floor. Max Since when? Why? -- -MIKE- The cabinet "should" set on a base. (That's how I've always built mine; YMMV) Max Yes, and isn't that called a Toe Kick??? Many toe kicks are cut into the plywood carcass of the cabinet. My question has nothing to do with one's preference or any implicit quality level involved in the choice. My question is directed to the context of the thread which is about water absorbing into the plywood. So, when someone says, "plywood shouldn't be in direct contact with the fly," I ask, why not? And you're right with new construction and regions where foundations are traditionally laid over a vapor barrier that prevents "wicking" from the surrounding soil into the concrete slab ... once the concrete is cured the moisture content in the concrete is not usually enough to effect the edge of a plywood end panel with a toe kick notch in it, and there is nothing to stop that type of cabinet from sitting on a vapor barrier itself at minimal cost. All bets are off in regions where below grade building; basements, etc, is prevalent. How many bathroom cabinets are on foundation concrete, however? And is the OP's? (did I write "fly?") :-) -- -MIKE- "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life" --Elvin Jones (1927-2004) -- http://mikedrums.com ---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply |
#26
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Baltic birch vs. Poplar for Bathroom Cabinet
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#27
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Baltic birch vs. Poplar for Bathroom Cabinet
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#28
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Baltic birch vs. Poplar for Bathroom Cabinet
In article ,
Larry Jaques wrote: ...other stuff skipped... Yeah, I got a bag of 100 nylon nail-in feet ... ...snipped... Why did that sentence make me think of Jesus Christ? -- Better to be stuck up in a tree than tied to one. Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar.org |
#29
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Baltic birch vs. Poplar for Bathroom Cabinet
Swingman writes:
On 12/3/2011 11:33 PM, blueman wrote: writes: On 12/3/2011 7:58 PM, bl I would not use poplar for face frames if I could help it. "Poplar" ain't what it used to be and is, IME, problematic from a dimensional stability stand point. Seems almost a crime to pay that much for something that will be painted... Is Poplar really that much of an issue? If price is an issue (not all that much of an investment in the face frame material for one bath cabinet) go with red oak and paint it. Is there any disadvantage to red oak over Beech if it's painted? |
#30
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Baltic birch vs. Poplar for Bathroom Cabinet
-MIKE- writes:
On 12/4/11 1:44 PM, Swingman wrote: On 12/4/2011 12:58 PM, -MIKE- wrote: On 12/4/11 11:47 AM, Rich wrote: Max wrote: wrote in message ... On 12/3/11 10:32 PM, Max wrote: "Larry wrote in message ... On Sat, 03 Dec 2011 20:58:54 -0500, wrote: I am building a built-in painted cabinet for one of our bathrooms (which includes a shower). I am planning on using poplar for the face frames but was wondering whether it would be OK to use Baltic Birch for the sides. Specifically, my concern is whether Baltic Birch plywood would be more likely to absorb water and swell/delaminate in a bathroom/shower situation. (Note: there shouldn't be any direct water contact except from steam/humidity and the occassional 'puddling' on the floor that could wick up into the end-grain) Note All surfaces will be primed& painted. I wouldn't worry about it. It's well made plywood and the primer and paint will seal it completely. I wouldn't hesitate to use it. -- Especially since the plywood wouldn't/shouldn't be in direct contact with the floor. Max Since when? Why? -- -MIKE- The cabinet "should" set on a base. (That's how I've always built mine; YMMV) Max Yes, and isn't that called a Toe Kick??? Many toe kicks are cut into the plywood carcass of the cabinet. My question has nothing to do with one's preference or any implicit quality level involved in the choice. My question is directed to the context of the thread which is about water absorbing into the plywood. So, when someone says, "plywood shouldn't be in direct contact with the fly," I ask, why not? And you're right with new construction and regions where foundations are traditionally laid over a vapor barrier that prevents "wicking" from the surrounding soil into the concrete slab ... once the concrete is cured the moisture content in the concrete is not usually enough to effect the edge of a plywood end panel with a toe kick notch in it, and there is nothing to stop that type of cabinet from sitting on a vapor barrier itself at minimal cost. All bets are off in regions where below grade building; basements, etc, is prevalent. How many bathroom cabinets are on foundation concrete, however? And is the OP's? Nope... it's on the 3rd floor. The question is whether some occassional wicking from small "puddles" left over from showers or baths is an issue? |
#31
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Baltic birch vs. Poplar for Bathroom Cabinet
On 12/4/11 10:27 PM, blueman wrote:
writes: On 12/3/2011 11:33 PM, blueman wrote: writes: On 12/3/2011 7:58 PM, bl I would not use poplar for face frames if I could help it. "Poplar" ain't what it used to be and is, IME, problematic from a dimensional stability stand point. Seems almost a crime to pay that much for something that will be painted... Is Poplar really that much of an issue? If price is an issue (not all that much of an investment in the face frame material for one bath cabinet) go with red oak and paint it. Is there any disadvantage to red oak over Beech if it's painted? In my mind, Beech would look better painted, unless you like the deep, wide grain of oak. Some do, some don't. -- -MIKE- "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life" --Elvin Jones (1927-2004) -- http://mikedrums.com ---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply |
#32
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Baltic birch vs. Poplar for Bathroom Cabinet
On 12/4/11 10:29 PM, blueman wrote:
writes: On 12/4/11 1:44 PM, Swingman wrote: On 12/4/2011 12:58 PM, -MIKE- wrote: On 12/4/11 11:47 AM, Rich wrote: Max wrote: wrote in message ... On 12/3/11 10:32 PM, Max wrote: "Larry wrote in message ... On Sat, 03 Dec 2011 20:58:54 -0500, wrote: I am building a built-in painted cabinet for one of our bathrooms (which includes a shower). I am planning on using poplar for the face frames but was wondering whether it would be OK to use Baltic Birch for the sides. Specifically, my concern is whether Baltic Birch plywood would be more likely to absorb water and swell/delaminate in a bathroom/shower situation. (Note: there shouldn't be any direct water contact except from steam/humidity and the occassional 'puddling' on the floor that could wick up into the end-grain) Note All surfaces will be primed& painted. I wouldn't worry about it. It's well made plywood and the primer and paint will seal it completely. I wouldn't hesitate to use it. -- Especially since the plywood wouldn't/shouldn't be in direct contact with the floor. Max Since when? Why? -- -MIKE- The cabinet "should" set on a base. (That's how I've always built mine; YMMV) Max Yes, and isn't that called a Toe Kick??? Many toe kicks are cut into the plywood carcass of the cabinet. My question has nothing to do with one's preference or any implicit quality level involved in the choice. My question is directed to the context of the thread which is about water absorbing into the plywood. So, when someone says, "plywood shouldn't be in direct contact with the fly," I ask, why not? And you're right with new construction and regions where foundations are traditionally laid over a vapor barrier that prevents "wicking" from the surrounding soil into the concrete slab ... once the concrete is cured the moisture content in the concrete is not usually enough to effect the edge of a plywood end panel with a toe kick notch in it, and there is nothing to stop that type of cabinet from sitting on a vapor barrier itself at minimal cost. All bets are off in regions where below grade building; basements, etc, is prevalent. How many bathroom cabinets are on foundation concrete, however? And is the OP's? Nope... it's on the 3rd floor. The question is whether some occassional wicking from small "puddles" left over from showers or baths is an issue? I guess I'm just trying to figure out who's getting puddles on their bathroom floors. Little quarter sized pools where some drops have gathered, yes, but enough to cover the floor to the point it reaches the cabinets? You'd have to be a pretty large person to leave a puddle when you get out of the shower. Several large people. And besides, who's *not* using bath mats? If you're leaving those kinds of puddles, you need a locker room, not a bathroom. :-) -- -MIKE- "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life" --Elvin Jones (1927-2004) -- http://mikedrums.com ---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply |
#33
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Baltic birch vs. Poplar for Bathroom Cabinet
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#34
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Baltic birch vs. Poplar for Bathroom Cabinet
On Dec 4, 11:33*am, Swingman wrote:
On 12/3/2011 10:18 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote: "Swingman" wrote: I would not use poplar for face frames if I could help it. "Poplar" ain't what it used to be and is, IME, problematic from a dimensional stability stand point. ---------------------------------- Any idea why the current supply of Poplar is not dimensionally stable? Look around you Lew, almost every thing in this country that is tainted by corporate MBAthink is ****, including MOST current products of the lumber industry. Indigenous new growth and/or plantation grown wood, as poplar is wont to be these days, with an unusually high moisture content for a tree to start with, coupled with the corporate MBAthink, equals wood that is inferior and improperly dried for most uses as cabinet/furniture "lumber" ... although great for pulp. Poplar has a high *ratio *of tangential to *radial *shrinkage, number one cause drying defects, so how is this handled by the corporate mindset? Ship it over the recommended moisture content and let the consumer worry about it, which means in the end that a high percentage of what is sold and used for cabinets/furniture will eventually exhibit dimensional instability. Basically, and in a sense, poplar has become the hardwood version of new growth fir and pine ... an unacceptable percentage will turn into a pretzel when it reaches equilibrium and not restrained in some manner. I decided a few years ago to no longer waste my time on the wood in any cabinet or furniture project. If you see a paint grade wooden door, or a bowed face frame on a painted cabinet, and it is warped, you can bet it is poplar. Further notable is that not a single door supplier I know will use poplar for paint grade door frames these days, not one! You can't even order it as a door option any longer in this neck of the woods. --www.eWoodShop.com Last update: 4/15/2010 KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)http://gplus.to/eWoodShop Fast growing weed tree, 3 - 4 feet per year. Unfortunately, fast growing usually means weak. |
#35
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Baltic birch vs. Poplar for Bathroom Cabinet
On Dec 4, 11:40*am, Swingman wrote:
I don't make cabinets out of mdf. MDF is much too heavy and does not hold fasteners well enough to stand the test of time. Shooting a little superglue into the screw holes makes the surrounding MDF hard as a rock and much more able to hold screws. Not real practical, though. |
#36
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Baltic birch vs. Poplar for Bathroom Cabinet
Swingman writes:
On 12/3/2011 7:58 PM, blueman wrote: I am planning on using poplar for the face frames but was wondering whether it would be OK to use Baltic Birch for the sides. I would not use poplar for face frames if I could help it. "Poplar" ain't what it used to be and is, IME, problematic from a dimensional stability stand point. Birch, white or red, might be a better choice, IMO. I went to a local high quality lumber shop used mostly by cabinet makers. I was all set to buy the Birch despite its 3x cost. I started chatting with one of the managers mentioning that I was told that Poplar "ain't what it used to be" -- and the manager told me that while he would love to sell me the higher priced Birch, in his experience Poplar is both more stable and more workable than Birch. A couple of customers within earshot agreed... so maybe the issue with Poplar is a regional one or maybe it depends on the quality of the Poplar. The Poplar was prety cheap ($1.67 per lineal foot for 1x6), high quality and already S4 so I went with the Poplar rather than paying $5.50 per bf for S3 birch (that was still rougher than the nicely milled Poplar). |
#37
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Baltic birch vs. Poplar for Bathroom Cabinet
On 12/7/2011 10:16 PM, blueman wrote:
writes: On 12/3/2011 7:58 PM, blueman wrote: I am planning on using poplar for the face frames but was wondering whether it would be OK to use Baltic Birch for the sides. I would not use poplar for face frames if I could help it. "Poplar" ain't what it used to be and is, IME, problematic from a dimensional stability stand point. Birch, white or red, might be a better choice, IMO. I went to a local high quality lumber shop used mostly by cabinet makers. I was all set to buy the Birch despite its 3x cost. I started chatting with one of the managers mentioning that I was told that Poplar "ain't what it used to be" -- and the manager told me that while he would love to sell me the higher priced Birch, in his experience Poplar is both more stable and more workable than Birch. A couple of customers within earshot agreed... so maybe the issue with Poplar is a regional one or maybe it depends on the quality of the Poplar. The Poplar was prety cheap ($1.67 per lineal foot for 1x6), high quality and already S4 so I went with the Poplar rather than paying $5.50 per bf for S3 birch (that was still rougher than the nicely milled Poplar). Word to the wise ... a salesman (someone "selling" you something) in any business having to do with construction, and particularly cabinetmaking, lumber yards or otherwise, is never to be trusted ... they're like politicians when it comes to there lips moving. A good rule to follow: Whenever a salesman advises, ask to see an example of _his_ work in that regard. Better to ask a cabinetmaker, or better yet, a cabinet door maker (where quality and material choice will totally make or break the deal), one who cares about their product, what they use. (and at least two have already advised you in that regard) g The price is generally a good indicator of material quality in this business. There is a big difference between inexpensive and "cheap" ... your words. Not that the cheaper material will all be bad, but you generally have to buy much more of it, and the risk of having to redo work because of inherent instability will make it more expensive in the long run. That notwithstanding, the odds are you should be just fine for your one-off cabinet face frame, mainly because a face frame is constrained in movement by attachment to the cabinet panels. (However, it only takes one, constrained or not, to ruin an entire run in a $60K kitchen, so those who care do not use price as the ultimate factor in choosing material). However, should you use that "cheap" (your words) poplar he sold you for your cabinet door frames, I will guarantee that one of every three will bow/warp to some extent in the not too distant future. Did you pick out the wood yourself, and more importantly, do you know what to look for? If you know what to look for you can indeed reduce your odds of that happening, but not as significantly with today's poplar as you can with other wood species. In any event, you should likely be OK, and good luck with your project. -- www.eWoodShop.com Last update: 4/15/2010 KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious) http://gplus.to/eWoodShop |
#38
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Baltic birch vs. Poplar for Bathroom Cabinet
On 12/8/11 9:22 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 12/7/2011 10:16 PM, blueman wrote: writes: On 12/3/2011 7:58 PM, blueman wrote: I am planning on using poplar for the face frames but was wondering whether it would be OK to use Baltic Birch for the sides. I would not use poplar for face frames if I could help it. "Poplar" ain't what it used to be and is, IME, problematic from a dimensional stability stand point. Birch, white or red, might be a better choice, IMO. I went to a local high quality lumber shop used mostly by cabinet makers. I was all set to buy the Birch despite its 3x cost. I started chatting with one of the managers mentioning that I was told that Poplar "ain't what it used to be" -- and the manager told me that while he would love to sell me the higher priced Birch, in his experience Poplar is both more stable and more workable than Birch. A couple of customers within earshot agreed... so maybe the issue with Poplar is a regional one or maybe it depends on the quality of the Poplar. The Poplar was prety cheap ($1.67 per lineal foot for 1x6), high quality and already S4 so I went with the Poplar rather than paying $5.50 per bf for S3 birch (that was still rougher than the nicely milled Poplar). Word to the wise ... a salesman (someone "selling" you something) in any business having to do with construction, and particularly cabinetmaking, lumber yards or otherwise, is never to be trusted ... they're like politicians when it comes to there lips moving. I'm automatically suspect of any salesman who says, "Poplar is both more stable and more workable than Birch." Really!? In any case, it's entirely possible that they actually make more profit on the less expensive poplar than the more expensive Birch, which may influence his recommendation. -- -MIKE- "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life" --Elvin Jones (1927-2004) -- http://mikedrums.com ---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply |
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