My shop is one stall in the garage and it's getting chilly here in
Wisconsin, just as I'm about ready to finish my rolling kitchen cart. I
plan on using a diluted oil-based poly for one of those "you can't make
a mistake with this" finishes. The garage has a forced air heater and
I'm not happy about letting the finish cure with a lot of air moving
stuff around.

So ... what's the minimum temperature at which I can safely apply this
finish. Figure it's getting down to the upper 40s in the garage at night.

Thanks,

Larry

PS: SWMBO asked me to stain this the same ugly off gray color as the
kitchen cabinets. What a terrible thing to do to walnut and hard maple!

"Gramp's shop" wrote in message
...
My shop is one stall in the garage and it's getting chilly here in
Wisconsin, just as I'm about ready to finish my rolling kitchen cart. I
plan on using a diluted oil-based poly for one of those "you can't make
a mistake with this" finishes. The garage has a forced air heater and
I'm not happy about letting the finish cure with a lot of air moving
stuff around.

So ... what's the minimum temperature at which I can safely apply this
finish. Figure it's getting down to the upper 40s in the garage at night.

Thanks,

Larry

PS: SWMBO asked me to stain this the same ugly off gray color as the
kitchen cabinets. What a terrible thing to do to walnut and hard maple!

The application temperature range is usually printed on the can. If not check
the manufacturers website.
Art
PS. Keep that cart for your shop and make her one out of plywood!

On Nov 14, 6:25*pm, Gramp's shop wrote:
My shop is one stall in the garage and it's getting chilly here in
Wisconsin, just as I'm about ready to finish my rolling kitchen cart. *I
plan on using a diluted oil-based poly for one of those "you can't make
a mistake with this" finishes. *The garage has a forced air heater and
I'm not happy about letting the finish cure with a lot of air moving
stuff around.

So ... what's the minimum temperature at which I can safely apply this
finish. *Figure it's getting down to the upper 40s in the garage at night.

Thanks,

Larry

PS: SWMBO asked me to stain this the same ugly off gray color as the
kitchen cabinets. *What a terrible thing to do to walnut and hard maple!

Cut it 50% with mineral spirits. Wipe on, let sit 5 minutes,
wipe back until dry to the touch. Rub with steel wool, tack,
and repeat. It'll take twice as many coats, but dust won't
be a problem. It'll also look and feel incredible.

"Gramp's shop" wrote:

My shop is one stall in the garage and it's getting chilly here in
Wisconsin, just as I'm about ready to finish my rolling kitchen
cart. I plan on using a diluted oil-based poly for one of those
"you can't make a mistake with this" finishes. The garage has a
forced air heater and I'm not happy about letting the finish cure
with a lot of air moving stuff around.

So ... what's the minimum temperature at which I can safely apply
this finish. Figure it's getting down to the upper 40s in the
garage at night.

Thanks,

Larry

PS: SWMBO asked me to stain this the same ugly off gray color as the
kitchen cabinets. What a terrible thing to do to walnut and hard
maple!
--------------------------------------
Been to the movie, you can't get there from here.

Just another reason I left Ohio for SoCal.

Wait till spring and at least 60F minimum temps.

BTW, as long as you are going to paint/stain it ugly, build another
cart using MDF and poplar.

Have fun.

Lew

On Nov 14, 3:59*pm, Father Haskell wrote:
On Nov 14, 6:25*pm, Gramp's shop wrote:





My shop is one stall in the garage and it's getting chilly here in
Wisconsin, just as I'm about ready to finish my rolling kitchen cart. *I
plan on using a diluted oil-based poly for one of those "you can't make
a mistake with this" finishes. *The garage has a forced air heater and
I'm not happy about letting the finish cure with a lot of air moving
stuff around.

So ... what's the minimum temperature at which I can safely apply this
finish. *Figure it's getting down to the upper 40s in the garage at night.

Thanks,

Larry

PS: SWMBO asked me to stain this the same ugly off gray color as the
kitchen cabinets. *What a terrible thing to do to walnut and hard maple!

Cut it 50% with mineral spirits. Wipe on, let sit 5 minutes,
wipe back until dry to the touch. *Rub with steel wool, tack,
and repeat. It'll take twice as many coats, but dust won't
be a problem. It'll also look and feel incredible.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

What!!! Rubbing wet poly with steel wool? Good luck with that.

So ... what's the minimum temperature at which I can safely apply this
finish. *Figure it's getting down to the upper 40s in the garage at night.

Thanks,

Larry

PS: SWMBO asked me to stain this the same ugly off gray color as the
kitchen cabinets. *What a terrible thing to do to walnut and hard maple!

If it is gettimg below about 55 your finish will stall in the drying
process and maybe never dry correctly. Poly takes a good 12 hours even
when using a wiping method. However, after a few hours it will be dry
enough to bring inside or run a heater. Wiping poly will only catch
nibs for an hour or two at most. It will skin over pretty quick but
isn't actually dry.

On Mon, 14 Nov 2011 15:59:39 -0800 (PST), Father Haskell
wrote:

On Nov 14, 6:25*pm, Gramp's shop wrote:
My shop is one stall in the garage and it's getting chilly here in
Wisconsin, just as I'm about ready to finish my rolling kitchen cart. *I
plan on using a diluted oil-based poly for one of those "you can't make
a mistake with this" finishes. *The garage has a forced air heater and
I'm not happy about letting the finish cure with a lot of air moving
stuff around.

So ... what's the minimum temperature at which I can safely apply this
finish. *Figure it's getting down to the upper 40s in the garage at night.

Thanks,

Larry

PS: SWMBO asked me to stain this the same ugly off gray color as the
kitchen cabinets. *What a terrible thing to do to walnut and hard maple!

Cut it 50% with mineral spirits. Wipe on, let sit 5 minutes,
wipe back until dry to the touch. Rub with steel wool, tack,
and repeat. It'll take twice as many coats, but dust won't
be a problem. It'll also look and feel incredible.

Hayseuss Crisco! You guys -deserve- your poly. sigh


--
Stain and poly are their own punishment.

Hayseuss Crisco! *You guys -deserve- your poly. *sigh

--
Stain and poly are their own punishment.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Sorry you are so closed minded. One can extract the unique value from
a whole host of techniques and materials if they have any talent.
There is more to life than pure tung oil on hand planed and scraped
unstained cherry.

On Tue, 15 Nov 2011 10:17:12 -0800 (PST), "SonomaProducts.com"
wrote:


Hayseuss Crisco! *You guys -deserve- your poly. *sigh

--
Stain and poly are their own punishment.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Sorry you are so closed minded. One can extract the unique value from
a whole host of techniques and materials if they have any talent.
There is more to life than pure tung oil on hand planed and scraped
unstained cherry.

That's OK. I'm leaving all that pine and Minwhacked and plastic to
youse guys. Enjoy!

--
The problem with borrowing money from China is
that thirty minutes later, you feel broke again.
--Steve Bridges as Obama

On Nov 14, 5:25 pm, Gramp's shop wrote:
My shop is one stall in the garage and it's getting chilly here in
Wisconsin, just as I'm about ready to finish my rolling kitchen cart. I
plan on using a diluted oil-based poly for one of those "you can't make
a mistake with this" finishes. The garage has a forced air heater and
I'm not happy about letting the finish cure with a lot of air moving
stuff around.

Don't ever finish when you have a forced air heater around. They will
draw fumes into the heater and (think this through....) and run the
volatile gases over the orange hot elements. That alone isn't
necessarily enough to blow yourself up, and many an idiot has done
that successfully for years. No doubt, we will hear that many here
swear by it.

Heat your shop to about 80 or so. Let the air settle, say 20 minutes
(just a WAG). Apply your finish rapidly and evenly. Since it is a
cart, make sure you have the wheels on the project, and then simply
roll it inside a heater room and let it dry.

You can go back and forth as much as you want by allowing your shop to
heat properly. Start early in the morning (still using a wipe finish
here), allot proper dry time for recoat, and you should put coat #2 on
in early afternoon. It should allow you enough time to put on a final
coat in the evening as well.

Work quickly and carefully, and use your leaf blower to blow off the
path to the house to keep dust to a minimum. If you catch a bit on
the legs, knock it down with some 400 about 14 - 21 days after your
last coat.

Where there is a will, there is certainly a way my friend. When I do
finishing on a job, I look for solutions, and they are usually at
hand. I can't tell my clients "see you next spring!".

If you second/third coat 6 - 8 hours after the previous coat, you DO
NOT need to sand. Skip that step as an unnecessary waste of time,
giving myou chances to screw up your surface than you should take. If
you do need to work out a nib, don't ever use steel wool. Steel wool
(unless it is the Liberon stuff) will break apart on your finish, it
gives an irregular sanding pattern based solely on pressure points,
and will leave behind the waste oil they use to keep it from rusting.
The wool itself and the oils left behind can completely ruin your
finish. Use high quality/high grit sandpaper to smooth out your
surfaces; no wool.

Most people learn their finishing by folklore, not by experience or
research. With a squint of research or by simply asking a
professional, you will find we do not sand between coats unless the
magic recoat time window passed or a bug has landed in the middle of
the wet coat.

PS: SWMBO asked me to stain this the same ugly off gray color as the
kitchen cabinets. What a terrible thing to do to walnut and hard maple!

I'm hearing you loud and clear, Larry. It's painful, but if the Queen
isn't happy, the King doesn't stand a chance. We do what we have to
do, eh?

I can't tell you how many cabinets I painted "French White" when it
was the rage. They looked nice when finished, but I had difficulty
painting maple and other hard woods for clients. But, they paid me; I
got over it. Most of the men folk didn't like it, and all of the
women did. ( You remember who you are building this cart for,
right? ;^) )

If the LOML wants something painted, I will certainly try to talk her
out of it, but not too vigorously. In the interest of domestic
tranquility, I have decided that paint can indeed be good.

Robert

On Tue, 15 Nov 2011 20:56:33 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

I can't tell you how many cabinets I painted "French White" when it
was the rage. They looked nice when finished, but I had difficulty
painting maple and other hard woods for clients. But, they paid me; I
got over it. Most of the men folk didn't like it, and all of the
women did. ( You remember who you are building this cart for,
right? ;^) )

I hope you at least -sealed- the project with shellac or lacquer
before painting to allow a later reversal, when they came to their
senses or the next owner bought it.


If the LOML wants something painted, I will certainly try to talk her
out of it, but not too vigorously. In the interest of domestic
tranquility, I have decided that paint can indeed be good.

Condolences on your smart idea to go along.

--
The problem with borrowing money from China is
that thirty minutes later, you feel broke again.
--Steve Bridges as Obama

On Nov 16, 8:12*am, Larry Jaques
wrote:

I hope you at least -sealed- the project with shellac or lacquer
before painting to allow a later reversal, when they came to their
senses or the next owner bought it.

Nope. Don't give a crap anymore. I don't have your energy and
enthusiasm to beat the snot out of someone that I want to sell a job
to these days. I don't stand on principle unless it is mine. My ego
and checkbook learned long ago that the customer should get what they
want, and my role is as a service provider. I am there to facilitate
their wishes, not push my agenda.

Besides, how many people have refinished a kitchen full of cabinets?
Not repainting, NOT putting a new top coat of clear on the wood, NOT a
scuff sand then top coat, but a real honest stripping to bare wood and
a real refinish? Have you? Have you ever taken a kitchen full of
cabinets apart, **chemically stripped all components to bare wood**,
cleaned every nook and cranny with little brass brushes, sanded out
all the imperfections and started over with your finishing routine?
Conditioned and colored the stained and discolored areas, filled in
the tiny checks and cracks, worked over the wear marks cabinets get so
you can make the cabinets look as close to new as possibile?

Nonsense. Unless you are a weekend warrior with plenty of time on
your hands OR you are happy with a crappy end product, refinishing of
kitchen cabinets isn't practical. It is almost completely impractical
for a professional finisher. I don't mind stripping a large vanity,
or certain piece, but a whole kitchen full of cabinets with all the
drawers, doors, rails and stiles that have to be stripped in place,
and all the protective precautions you must have when working in
someone's house? Seriously?

It is a much better value to replace doors, and paint or veneer the
stiles and rails once you pass just a few doors.

I am not the ancient craftsman that toils away in the darkness,
eschewing powered tools, using ancient methods to further my art.

Nope. I am a businessman. I left the world of the proud, ancient
craftsman that did things his way (only) years ago. I learned in the
mid seventies how to build cabinets and fixtures, then large entry
doors, and later learned framing, deck building, etc. I left the
world of the ancient craftsman of doing things my way when I got
tired of starving. After all, clients do have choices, and never more
true than today, choices are often price driven.

I buy cabinets these days from an old outfit I like, and he will sell
me doors only if I want to change existing. Outside of a vanity, a
replacement or utility cabinet, I haven't made a cabinet for client in
years. Although I will remake or rebuild door jams, I buy prehung
doors if possible, and get anything I need for a job as close to
finished as I can before I buy it.

At one time I was very proud of my skill set, but just don't care
anymore. The ugly reality of keeping a business afloat for almost 30
years has taught me that the world doesn't work the way I want it to,
and I need to do what I need to on any given day to get work to keep
the ball rolling. I take pride in my work, but more as doing a good
job over anything specific.

My business model is simple. I give a competitive bid for work I know
I can warrant with my 100% no-**** warranty. That's it. I am not
their taste buds, nor do I try to predict the future of their home for
them.

I don't care if someone wants me to paint their cabinets pink, or pee
yellow. I am not their taste buds. Nor do I care about someone that
might buy the house in future (and their thoughts on the current
client's work) or anyone's nieces, nephews, next door neighbors, or
any other peanut gallery. They guy that signs the check has my
undivided attention and efforts.

If the LOML wants something painted, I will certainly try to talk her
out of it, but not too vigorously. *In the interest of domestic
tranquility, I have decided that paint can indeed be good.

Condolences on your smart idea to go along.

No condolences needed. I **like** getting along, and my partner in
life is certainly as strong willed as I am. I don't really give a
crap about paint or clear finishes enough to cause friction between me
and mine. We are about 50/50 on these things, so that is close enough
for me.

If I am sitting on the back porch with a cold beer and cigar while
smoking a brisket, knowing that all is well inside, I couldn't
care less about paint/stain/urethane etc.

But, that's just me.

Robert

On 11/16/2011 12:41 PM, wrote:
....

I am not the ancient craftsman that toils away in the darkness,
eschewing powered tools, using ancient methods to further my art.

Nope. I am a businessman....

And, so were they. (Some were captured contractors, certainly, but even
there it's certain a lack of performance would result in another willing
set of hands to take the slot).

As another saying goes, "Farming w/o a profit motive is gardening."

--

wrote in message
...
On Nov 16, 8:12 am, Larry Jaques
wrote:

I hope you at least -sealed- the project with shellac or lacquer
before painting to allow a later reversal, when they came to their
senses or the next owner bought it.

Nope. Don't give a crap anymore. I don't have your energy and
enthusiasm to beat the snot out of someone that I want to sell a job
to these days. I don't stand on principle unless it is mine. My ego
and checkbook learned long ago that the customer should get what they
want, and my role is as a service provider. I am there to facilitate
their wishes, not push my agenda.

Besides, how many people have refinished a kitchen full of cabinets?
Not repainting, NOT putting a new top coat of clear on the wood, NOT a
scuff sand then top coat, but a real honest stripping to bare wood and
a real refinish? Have you? Have you ever taken a kitchen full of
cabinets apart, **chemically stripped all components to bare wood**,
cleaned every nook and cranny with little brass brushes, sanded out
all the imperfections and started over with your finishing routine?
Conditioned and colored the stained and discolored areas, filled in
the tiny checks and cracks, worked over the wear marks cabinets get so
you can make the cabinets look as close to new as possibile?

Nonsense. Unless you are a weekend warrior with plenty of time on
your hands OR you are happy with a crappy end product, refinishing of
kitchen cabinets isn't practical. It is almost completely impractical
for a professional finisher. I don't mind stripping a large vanity,
or certain piece, but a whole kitchen full of cabinets with all the
drawers, doors, rails and stiles that have to be stripped in place,
and all the protective precautions you must have when working in
someone's house? Seriously?

It is a much better value to replace doors, and paint or veneer the
stiles and rails once you pass just a few doors.

I am not the ancient craftsman that toils away in the darkness,
eschewing powered tools, using ancient methods to further my art.

Nope. I am a businessman. I left the world of the proud, ancient
craftsman that did things his way (only) years ago. I learned in the
mid seventies how to build cabinets and fixtures, then large entry
doors, and later learned framing, deck building, etc. I left the
world of the ancient craftsman of doing things my way when I got
tired of starving. After all, clients do have choices, and never more
true than today, choices are often price driven.

I buy cabinets these days from an old outfit I like, and he will sell
me doors only if I want to change existing. Outside of a vanity, a
replacement or utility cabinet, I haven't made a cabinet for client in
years. Although I will remake or rebuild door jams, I buy prehung
doors if possible, and get anything I need for a job as close to
finished as I can before I buy it.

At one time I was very proud of my skill set, but just don't care
anymore. The ugly reality of keeping a business afloat for almost 30
years has taught me that the world doesn't work the way I want it to,
and I need to do what I need to on any given day to get work to keep
the ball rolling. I take pride in my work, but more as doing a good
job over anything specific.

My business model is simple. I give a competitive bid for work I know
I can warrant with my 100% no-**** warranty. That's it. I am not
their taste buds, nor do I try to predict the future of their home for
them.

I don't care if someone wants me to paint their cabinets pink, or pee
yellow. I am not their taste buds. Nor do I care about someone that
might buy the house in future (and their thoughts on the current
client's work) or anyone's nieces, nephews, next door neighbors, or
any other peanut gallery. They guy that signs the check has my
undivided attention and efforts.

If the LOML wants something painted, I will certainly try to talk her
out of it, but not too vigorously. In the interest of domestic
tranquility, I have decided that paint can indeed be good.

Condolences on your smart idea to go along.

No condolences needed. I **like** getting along, and my partner in
life is certainly as strong willed as I am. I don't really give a
crap about paint or clear finishes enough to cause friction between me
and mine. We are about 50/50 on these things, so that is close enough
for me.

If I am sitting on the back porch with a cold beer and cigar while
smoking a brisket, knowing that all is well inside, I couldn't
care less about paint/stain/urethane etc.

But, that's just me.

Robert

Don't hold back Robert, tell us how you really feel!! ;-)

Right on brother, I know exactly of what you speak. I can't tell you the
number of times I have had to "make do" and have it work out just fine. And
I have done a whole bunch of jobs for far less than some starry eyed
purists.

The customer is always right. It is just that simple. That what contracts
are for. If the customer is unhappy, you just pull out the contract. But
if the customer wants a room done in hot pink, you do it in hot pink.
Besides, most customers won't admit they made a mistake anyway. Give them
what they want. You will get in less trouble that way and you won't lose
the job.

The only exception to that rule is if it becomes a safety issue. I won't do
something that is dangerous. Not only because I wouldn't do such a thing,
but for liability issues. But taste??? People like all kinds of things.
Strange things. Bizarre things. AND THEY PAY MONEY to have somebody make
these weird items for them!

One thing I do though, is try to steer people towards simpler solutions if
possible. I just let them know if they want that insanely complicated
finish on the project, it will double the price. That usually calms them
down and makes my life simpler. But I will do what they want if they me pay
enough.

I remember the wise words of an old timer who told me this, "There are two
kinds of workers at what I do. There are working craftsman and there are
starving artists. I like to eat. So you can guess which one I am".

wrote:

Don't ever finish when you have a forced air heater around. They
will
draw fumes into the heater and (think this through....) and run the
volatile gases over the orange hot elements. That alone isn't
necessarily enough to blow yourself up, and many an idiot has done
that successfully for years. No doubt, we will hear that many here
swear by it.

Heat your shop to about 80 or so. Let the air settle, say 20
minutes
(just a WAG). Apply your finish rapidly and evenly. Since it is a
cart, make sure you have the wheels on the project, and then simply
roll it inside a heater room and let it dry.

You can go back and forth as much as you want by allowing your shop
to
heat properly. Start early in the morning (still using a wipe
finish
here), allot proper dry time for recoat, and you should put coat #2
on
in early afternoon. It should allow you enough time to put on a
final
coat in the evening as well.

Work quickly and carefully, and use your leaf blower to blow off the
path to the house to keep dust to a minimum. If you catch a bit on
the legs, knock it down with some 400 about 14 - 21 days after your
last coat.

Where there is a will, there is certainly a way my friend. When I
do
finishing on a job, I look for solutions, and they are usually at
hand. I can't tell my clients "see you next spring!".

If you second/third coat 6 - 8 hours after the previous coat, you DO
NOT need to sand. Skip that step as an unnecessary waste of time,
giving myou chances to screw up your surface than you should take.
If
you do need to work out a nib, don't ever use steel wool. Steel
wool
(unless it is the Liberon stuff) will break apart on your finish, it
gives an irregular sanding pattern based solely on pressure points,
and will leave behind the waste oil they use to keep it from
rusting.
The wool itself and the oils left behind can completely ruin your
finish. Use high quality/high grit sandpaper to smooth out your
surfaces; no wool.

Most people learn their finishing by folklore, not by experience or
research. With a squint of research or by simply asking a
professional, you will find we do not sand between coats unless the
magic recoat time window passed or a bug has landed in the middle of
the wet coat.
-------------------------------------
Only comment I'll make is that winter temps in Wisconsin are
considerably different than they are in San Antonio, at some 6-800
miles lower latitude.

Don't think you will be able to achieve your described thermal profile
after a week of ZERO temps typical several times during WI winters.

Lew

On Nov 16, 1:24*pm, "Lee Michaels" leemichaels*nadaspam* at comcast
dot net wrote:

Don't hold back Robert, tell us how you really feel!! *;-)

You know Lee, sometimes I just get tongue tied. Yup, that's it.

Right on brother, I know exactly of what you speak. *I can't tell you the
number of times I have had to "make do" and have it work out just fine. *And
I have done a whole bunch of jobs for far less than some starry eyed
purists.

Amen. And in this awful repair/maintenance only economy for us
smaller contractors, I still have work. I still don't advertise.
(Wait... is that why I am at home in the early afternoon mid week
screwing around on the computer.... damnit!!) My clients call me for
practical solutions and in this economy aren't interested in my
artistic opinions. I have picked out many a paint color and surface
material for kitchens and such, but only when directly asked to do so.

The customer is always right. *It is just that simple. *That what contracts
are for. *If the customer is unhappy, you just pull out the contract.
I remember the wise words of an old timer who told me this, "There are two
kinds of workers at what I do. *There are working craftsman and there are
starving artists. *I like to eat. *So you can guess which one I am".

Yes, yes, yes. I WANTED to be that craftsman, that guy that channeled
Duncan Phyfe and his lot, but mortgage payments, tool payments, truck
payments, food, utilities and employee payroll really got in the way.
Continuing education about contract law, new estimating techniques,
new product knowledge, current installation techniques for new
products, keeping up with the current market pricing, finding good
help, and on an on plagued me until I had to make a decision.

Be a hand forever, a starving artist (hopefully to be recognized
before my death), or have a life that included something that I was
once quite fond of doing. I do indeed have a couple of guys that
stand so hard on their principles that it is their way or no way.
They call me for work from time to time, but I don't have a lot of
work that they will find appealing. I certainly don't want them to
compromise their values for me. Let 'em starve. Most of those
stalwart independents have wives with good incomes anyway. I don't.

I remember the wise words of an old timer who told me this, "There are two
kinds of workers at what I do. There are working craftsman and there are
starving artists. I like to eat. So you can guess which one I am".

I never got the whole picture, even when it was presented to me in the
late 70s. A great friend of mine was a very successful engineer. He
loved to draw, and do the engineering work. He also liked to go out
to the jobs and inspect (yay! out of the office!) them, and have lunch
with his buddies.

As his firm grew, he was less and less happy. He literally made more
money than he could spend, and I couldn't believe he was so unhappy.
He told me then, something I didn't fathom. He told me that if I
started a company (doing all things carpentry) and it became
successful, I would find myself doing 10% or less carpentry, and the
rest was simply taking care of the business.

No kidding. Quarterly reports, 1099s, immigration law compliance,
scheduling jobs/labor/materials, franchise requirements for the state,
contract law, estimating jobs, selling jobs, quality control, accounts
payable, accounts receivable, promoting the company, company money
management, client relations, and on an on and on... I just didn't
understand what he was saying so long ago. I sure do now.

So seriously.... how much could I care if I wanted to about ** the
next guy that might buy a house** an the treatment of wood the current
owners pay for? I simply don't care at all. And since I am never the
cheapest guy they call, they can find someone that can do the job they
want at less cost with a simple phone call. How stupid would it be to
intentionally put myself in that position?

I always remember the old addage "Pride goeth before the fall".

Even though I snipped it, I read your whole post Lee and completely
agree with all of it.

Robert

On 11/16/2011 2:07 PM, wrote:
On Nov 16, 1:24 pm, "Lee Michaels"leemichaels*nadaspam*wrote


Saved then both ... might have steal'em one of these days.


--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On Wed, 16 Nov 2011 10:41:54 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Nov 16, 8:12*am, Larry Jaques
wrote:

I hope you at least -sealed- the project with shellac or lacquer
before painting to allow a later reversal, when they came to their
senses or the next owner bought it.

Nope. Don't give a crap anymore. I don't have your energy and
enthusiasm to beat the snot out of someone that I want to sell a job
to these days. I don't stand on principle unless it is mine. My ego
and checkbook learned long ago that the customer should get what they
want, and my role is as a service provider. I am there to facilitate
their wishes, not push my agenda.

Yeah, I hear you. I'd just add the price of shellac as a primer in
the original cost of the item.


Besides, how many people have refinished a kitchen full of cabinets?
Not repainting, NOT putting a new top coat of clear on the wood, NOT a
scuff sand then top coat, but a real honest stripping to bare wood and
a real refinish? Have you? Have you ever taken a kitchen full of
cabinets apart, **chemically stripped all components to bare wood**,
cleaned every nook and cranny with little brass brushes, sanded out
all the imperfections and started over with your finishing routine?
Conditioned and colored the stained and discolored areas, filled in
the tiny checks and cracks, worked over the wear marks cabinets get so
you can make the cabinets look as close to new as possibile?

I've seen one done like that and it looked good. 'Twas an old geezer
with eons of time on his hands. But, no, I haven't done it.


Nonsense. Unless you are a weekend warrior with plenty of time on
your hands OR you are happy with a crappy end product, refinishing of
kitchen cabinets isn't practical. It is almost completely impractical
for a professional finisher. I don't mind stripping a large vanity,
or certain piece, but a whole kitchen full of cabinets with all the
drawers, doors, rails and stiles that have to be stripped in place,
and all the protective precautions you must have when working in
someone's house? Seriously?

I thought this was a single cabinet, not a kitchen full of 'em.


It is a much better value to replace doors, and paint or veneer the
stiles and rails once you pass just a few doors.

I am not the ancient craftsman that toils away in the darkness,
eschewing powered tools, using ancient methods to further my art.

We use that newfangled 'lectricity nowadays, boy.


Nope. I am a businessman. I left the world of the proud, ancient
craftsman that did things his way (only) years ago. I learned in the
mid seventies how to build cabinets and fixtures, then large entry
doors, and later learned framing, deck building, etc. I left the
world of the ancient craftsman of doing things my way when I got
tired of starving. After all, clients do have choices, and never more
true than today, choices are often price driven.

I buy cabinets these days from an old outfit I like, and he will sell
me doors only if I want to change existing. Outside of a vanity, a
replacement or utility cabinet, I haven't made a cabinet for client in
years. Although I will remake or rebuild door jams, I buy prehung
doors if possible, and get anything I need for a job as close to
finished as I can before I buy it.

Ditto.


At one time I was very proud of my skill set, but just don't care
anymore. The ugly reality of keeping a business afloat for almost 30
years has taught me that the world doesn't work the way I want it to,
and I need to do what I need to on any given day to get work to keep
the ball rolling. I take pride in my work, but more as doing a good
job over anything specific.

Grok that.


My business model is simple. I give a competitive bid for work I know
I can warrant with my 100% no-**** warranty. That's it. I am not
their taste buds, nor do I try to predict the future of their home for
them.

I don't care if someone wants me to paint their cabinets pink, or pee
yellow. I am not their taste buds. Nor do I care about someone that
might buy the house in future (and their thoughts on the current
client's work) or anyone's nieces, nephews, next door neighbors, or
any other peanut gallery. They guy that signs the check has my
undivided attention and efforts.

If the LOML wants something painted, I will certainly try to talk her
out of it, but not too vigorously. *In the interest of domestic
tranquility, I have decided that paint can indeed be good.

Condolences on your smart idea to go along.

No condolences needed. I **like** getting along, and my partner in
life is certainly as strong willed as I am. I don't really give a
crap about paint or clear finishes enough to cause friction between me
and mine. We are about 50/50 on these things, so that is close enough
for me.

If I am sitting on the back porch with a cold beer and cigar while
smoking a brisket, knowing that all is well inside, I couldn't
care less about paint/stain/urethane etc.

But, that's just me.

Well, originally I was looking for a yes or no answer, but...
snort

--
Most powerful is he who has himself in his own power.
-- Seneca