Which is better under a router table, plunge or non-plunge? I've
watched the Router Workshop on TV with the older guy and his son and
they swear by the plunge router with the springs removed. Is there a
real advantage to that or is it just individual preferences?

Gerry so many questions, so little knowledge

P.S. Yet another question, is there a proper name for "non-plunge"?

On Sat, 26 Jun 2004 11:59:37 -0400, "G.E.R.R.Y."
wrote:

Which is better under a router table, plunge or non-plunge? I've
watched the Router Workshop on TV with the older guy and his son and
they swear by the plunge router with the springs removed. Is there a
real advantage to that or is it just individual preferences?

Religious war. Those who prefer either will defend to the death their
choice.

Just for the record, I am a proponent of plunge, specifically the one
that the Rosendahls (the guys you're talking about) used mostly
(they've used Dewallies and P-Cs, as well); the Hitachi M12V (and when
all the sponsorship left, they continued to use the Hitachis painted a
putrid purple).

P.S. Yet another question, is there a proper name for "non-plunge"?

Fixed base works.

- -
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

When they're under, can't tell what it is. For ease of adjustment when
above the table, I prefer a plunge like the router guys use. Better
clearances for access to the collet, no twist and torque.

"G.E.R.R.Y." wrote in message
.. .
Which is better under a router table, plunge or non-plunge? I've
watched the Router Workshop on TV with the older guy and his son and
they swear by the plunge router with the springs removed. Is there a
real advantage to that or is it just individual preferences?

Gerry so many questions, so little knowledge

P.S. Yet another question, is there a proper name for "non-plunge"?

"G.E.R.R.Y." wrote in message
.. .
Which is better under a router table, plunge or non-plunge? I've
watched the Router Workshop on TV with the older guy and his son and
they swear by the plunge router with the springs removed. Is there a
real advantage to that or is it just individual preferences?

Never use the plunge in a table. If you are using a router lift, the fixed
base is the way to go. Triton plunge and maybe a couple of others are now
more "table friendly" for adjusting.

I have a Benchdog lift and it is simple and accurate to adjust. Others will
do the same thing.
Ed

I, too, prefer a fixed non-plunge for under the table. Look at the 3HP
offerings by either Milwaukee (my preference for a router table router) or
Porter Cable. The Milwaukee I have can even be adjusted from above the
table.

Brian.

"Brian" wrote in message
...

I, too, prefer a fixed non-plunge for under the table. Look at the 3HP
offerings by either Milwaukee (my preference for a router table router) or
Porter Cable. The Milwaukee I have can even be adjusted from above the
table.

The big Milwaukee was my first choice but I am ending up with the Triton.
You can adjust height from above the table with the Milwaukee. Is that an
advantage? Don't you have to reach under the table anyway to unlock the
base? I find that I have to stoop down anyway to look across the table at
the bit height.

"Leon" wrote in message news:RGmDc.8987

The big Milwaukee was my first choice but I am ending up with the Triton.
You can adjust height from above the table with the Milwaukee. Is that an
advantage? Don't you have to reach under the table anyway to unlock the
base? I find that I have to stoop down anyway to look across the table at
the bit height.


The Triton is certainly a worthy and less expensive competitor.

Brian.

The Triton is certainly a worthy and less expensive competitor.

Brian.

Oops, double checked the price. I guess it is no less expensive.

Brian.

Good question and I just ordered a new under table router to replace my
Bosch 1611, 15 amp plunge router. My 1611 is similar to the current 1619, a
big router. My 1611 is 16 years old and has no modern features other that
it is electric.
Anyway, what you want is a router that you can fine tune the height
adjustment with some sort of adjustment knob after making your quick coarse
height adjustment. Note my mentioning "after" making your Quick coarse
adjustment. You do not want one of those after market threaded tubes with a
knob on it. Those take forever to run up and down from one end of
adjustment to the other end. Something to look at for example is the
adjustment setup on the newest Milwaukee routers the Bosch 1613 or 1619 or
the Triton router. All of these routers and I am sure a slew of others will
work nicely under the table. Some are fixed base, some are plunge base.
Your main concern is to be able to make coarse height adjustments quickly
and then be able to fine tune that adjustment. I also have a Bosch 1617evs
router that would work great in my router table but it is kinda small for
some of the bits that I spin on my router table. If you are turning common
horizontal raised panel bits I strongly suggest one of the 15 amp "aka" 3+
hp routers with VARIABLE speed. You need to slow those big bits down to the
10,000 rpm range.

So today I went down to buy my 6th router and had narrowed the choices down
to the fixed base 5625-20 Milwaukee or the plunge base Triton. I had
considered the Bosch 1619 evs but because of the location of the fine tune
adjustment knob it would be behind the router when turned up side down or on
the left side of the router. Neither of those locations appealed to me.
The Milwaukee is a beast and well made. Simple. Variable speed, fast
coarse adjustment, good fine tune height adjustment knob and the ability to
make fine tune height adjustments "above" the table. It is also a 2 wrench
router which I GREATLY prefer over the single wrench models. BUT, I found
that when the Milwaukee is upside down and you push the coarse adjustment
knob to make an adjustment, you better have a both hands on the router to
keep it from falling out of the fixed base. While the above table height
adjustment is a cool idea I can see the hole in the table top filling with
saw dust and clogging the mechanism even though there is a plastic cover
that opens when you push an adjustment tool through it.

So now I turn to the plunge base Triton, Seems to be designed from the
ground up to be hung under the table or used free hand. While I have read
many mixed reviews about 3 or 4 specific problems, these apparently have all
been addressed and the new production Tritons have been fitted with the
fixes. I ordered the Triton from the Woodcraft store. They were sold out.
The big pluses I see here is that bits can be changed from above the table
top. While this is a 1 wrench router like my current Bosch 1611 the router
will remain in the base during a bit change. While 1 wrench routers sound
simpler to use, you still have to use your other hand to hold the router and
or the router shaft lock. So what have you gained by only using 1 wrench?
With 2 wrench routers, you can loosen or tighten the collet with 1 hand. 2
hands are still needed to make coarse adjustments to the collet. The Triton
having a self locking shaft and not requiring removal of the router from the
table may be somewhere in between the 2 wrench and 1 wrench style as far as
ease is concerned. I suspect one hand will be on the wrench and the other
holding the router cabinet to keep it from moving when loosening or
tightening the collet. The Triton will not fall out of its base when making
coarse adjustments under the table.

Other nice touches that the Triton has over other plunge based routers are,
the adjustable depth turret is second to none and simple to use requiring no
screw driver or wrench for multiple height adjustments. This may or may not
be useful in a router table. The Triton comes with an edge guide for free
hand use.

Routers are generally plunge base or "non-plunge" fixed base.

Good comments Leon, thanks. I'll wait a bit to see what your 'in-use'
comments are like. From what I've seen though, I'd be surprised if you
aren't very pleased with it.

--
Greg

"ANY response to a troll is a win for the troll."

"Leon" wrote in message
m...
Good question and I just ordered a new under table router to replace my
Bosch 1611, 15 amp plunge router. My 1611 is similar to the current 1619,
a
big router. My 1611 is 16 years old and has no modern features other that
it is electric.
snip of comments

Since you will be lookin fer it, I will report on it ASAP. ;~)


"Greg Millen" wrote in message
s.com...
Good comments Leon, thanks. I'll wait a bit to see what your 'in-use'
comments are like. From what I've seen though, I'd be surprised if you
aren't very pleased with it.

--
Greg

"Leon" wrote in message ...
Since you will be lookin fer it, I will report on it ASAP. ;~)

G'day Leon,

Smiley noted ;-)

I like to read comments after the 'honeymoon' period is over, since the two
versions tend to differ. For example, a few guys got the expensive Twin
Linear router fence and gave great reviews. Over a period of time, I saw
some negative comments (scattered in the NG) about the accuracy of the
wedges used to offset the fence faces. It's hard to admit to an expensive
toy not meeting expectations but, given time, people seem more likely to
give the story - warts and all. I'd still like to get the full story on the
Twin Linear - if there is one.

cheers,

Greg

"Greg Millen" wrote in message
s.com...

I like to read comments after the 'honeymoon' period is over, since the
two
versions tend to differ.

You know Greg, I have been buying tools for a long time and generelly buy
with confidence. Still I am like you as I know that a lot of hype in the
beginning does not always tell the true tale. If you saw my 2 posts about
precieion miter gauges earlier this week, I am sure you will agree that
buying from a local and reputable dealer is good for him and you. I spent
about $140 for a precieion miter gauge that was no better than the gauge
that came with my saw. Immediately the next day I returned it and upgraded
to a $180 precieion miter gage. Worse than the first and both of these are
from reputable manufacutrers. That dealer knows what I expect from a tool
and if he sees me coming back, he knows that there is a "tool" preoblem and
takes care of it to my liking and without my asking. Today I bought from
Woodcraft and paid more than buying on the internet. If I find that the
Triton does not fill the bill as advertised, reliably, I have 1 year to
return it for exchange, credit, or refund. If I have to return the Triton,
I'll upgrade to the big Milwaukee.


Leon

"Leon" wrote in message news:X3kDc.8549

The Milwaukee is a beast and well made. Simple. Variable speed, fast
coarse adjustment, good fine tune height adjustment knob and the ability
to
make fine tune height adjustments "above" the table. It is also a 2
wrench
router which I GREATLY prefer over the single wrench models. BUT, I
found
that when the Milwaukee is upside down and you push the coarse adjustment
knob to make an adjustment, you better have a both hands on the router to
keep it from falling out of the fixed base.

True, but who cares? With fixed base routers, at one time or another you'll
be handling the motor to adjust the height. In the case of the Porter Cable
7518 (really the 2nd best option for a table IMO), you've got to spin and
spin and spin it to get it to height. Far less convenient than the
Milwaukee mechanism.

Speaking of convenience, plunging a router upside down seems to me to be
less than optimal. And having to adjust the depth stop constantly would
annoy me, although if the Triton has a toolless adjustment that might be
better. Does the Triton have a plunge spring defeat mechanism? That would
be desireable for use in a table. Though, I guess I just far prefer the
ability to quickly coarse adjust the motor to roughly where I want and then
fine tune from there than deal with a plunger under table. And the 5625-20
is ideal for that. By far the nicest table router I've used, but of course,
not cheap.


While the above table height
adjustment is a cool idea I can see the hole in the table top filling with
saw dust and clogging the mechanism even though there is a plastic cover
that opens when you push an adjustment tool through it.

Perhaps. But as you noted in another post, the above table adjust isn't
terribly advantageous. I've never used it.

Brian.

Hi Brian,
The Triton's plunge spring can be removed in about 10 seconds and reinstalled
in about 15 seconds. Cheers, JG

Brian wrote:

"Leon" wrote in message news:X3kDc.8549

The Milwaukee is a beast and well made. Simple. Variable speed, fast
coarse adjustment, good fine tune height adjustment knob and the ability
to
make fine tune height adjustments "above" the table. It is also a 2
wrench
router which I GREATLY prefer over the single wrench models. BUT, I
found
that when the Milwaukee is upside down and you push the coarse adjustment
knob to make an adjustment, you better have a both hands on the router to
keep it from falling out of the fixed base.

True, but who cares? With fixed base routers, at one time or another you'll
be handling the motor to adjust the height. In the case of the Porter Cable
7518 (really the 2nd best option for a table IMO), you've got to spin and
spin and spin it to get it to height. Far less convenient than the
Milwaukee mechanism.

Speaking of convenience, plunging a router upside down seems to me to be
less than optimal. And having to adjust the depth stop constantly would
annoy me, although if the Triton has a toolless adjustment that might be
better. Does the Triton have a plunge spring defeat mechanism? That would
be desireable for use in a table. Though, I guess I just far prefer the
ability to quickly coarse adjust the motor to roughly where I want and then
fine tune from there than deal with a plunger under table. And the 5625-20
is ideal for that. By far the nicest table router I've used, but of course,
not cheap.

While the above table height
adjustment is a cool idea I can see the hole in the table top filling with
saw dust and clogging the mechanism even though there is a plastic cover
that opens when you push an adjustment tool through it.

Perhaps. But as you noted in another post, the above table adjust isn't
terribly advantageous. I've never used it.

Brian.

"Brian" wrote in message
...

True, but who cares? With fixed base routers, at one time or another
you'll
be handling the motor to adjust the height.

My point here was that with the large Milwaukee if you depress the coarse
adjustment knob, the router motor completely falls out of the base if
mounted under the table and you do not guard against this. The Bosch 1617
router is fixed base with coarse and fine tune adjustment and one of the
first with this style adjustment but the motor will not drop out of the base
when mounted upside down. The motor raises and lowers straight up and down
like the Milwaukee with out having to spin the motor round and round to make
height adjustments but to remove it from the base you have to turn the motor
in the base about 1/8 turn to remove it. Milwaukee should have had some
type of similar safety to prevent the motor from dropping out.

In the case of the Porter Cable
7518 (really the 2nd best option for a table IMO), you've got to spin and
spin and spin it to get it to height. Far less convenient than the
Milwaukee mechanism.

Agreed, and a very expensive setup as this router needs to be mounted with a
lift to be able to make coarse and fine adjustments quickly.


Speaking of convenience, plunging a router upside down seems to me to be
less than optimal.

Exactly, except the Triton has eliminated this trait. The router basically
converts to a fixed base like router with the twist of a lock knob. In the
hanging under a table position, you turn a lock in one of the handles and
then the router will no longer plunge. You then engage a release on the
handle and then turn the handle to raise or lower the motor. Let go of the
release on the knob and the motor locks in at that position and then you can
fine tune that position with another fine tune knob. No lifting at all on
your part.

And having to adjust the depth stop constantly would
annoy me, although if the Triton has a toolless adjustment that might be
better.

The Triton only needs a wrench to tighten or loosen the collet.

Does the Triton have a plunge spring defeat mechanism?

Sorta, it is designed so that you can easily remove the spring.

That would be desirable for use in a table.

Yes. I had to learn that 16 years ago with my 1611Bosch.

Though, I guess I just far prefer the ability to quickly coarse adjust
the motor to roughly where I want and then fine tune from there than deal
with a plunger under table. And the 5625-20
is ideal for that.

I wqas not going to buy a router that would not do exactly "that". The
Triton works exactly that way when in that "mode". Lock the adjustment
handle and the Triton converts back to the plunge style set up. Basically
Triton has come up with a router that works like a fixed base and plunge
base router.

By far the nicest table router I've used, but of course, not cheap.

I agree with you. I was actually going to buy the Milwaukee. I had copies
of competitors adds to bargain with, showing the price at $299. But then I
compared the Triton to it, both were side by side, and I felt the Triton was
better thought out. I have 1 year to see if the Triton lives up to the
hype. If it is not up to my expectations with actual use I will probably
exchange it for the big Milwaukee.


While the above table height
adjustment is a cool idea I can see the hole in the table top filling
with
saw dust and clogging the mechanism even though there is a plastic cover
that opens when you push an adjustment tool through it.

Perhaps. But as you noted in another post, the above table adjust isn't
terribly advantageous. I've never used it.

That's they way I see it.

"Leon" wrote in message
...

"Brian" wrote in message
...

True, but who cares? With fixed base routers, at one time or another
you'll
be handling the motor to adjust the height.

My point here was that with the large Milwaukee if you depress the coarse
adjustment knob, the router motor completely falls out of the base if
mounted under the table and you do not guard against this. The Bosch 1617
router is fixed base with coarse and fine tune adjustment and one of the
first with this style adjustment but the motor will not drop out of the
base
when mounted upside down. The motor raises and lowers straight up and
down
like the Milwaukee with out having to spin the motor round and round to
make
height adjustments but to remove it from the base you have to turn the
motor
in the base about 1/8 turn to remove it. Milwaukee should have had some
type of similar safety to prevent the motor from dropping out.

I understood your "point" the first time, but I still can't understand the
need for for any safety mechanism. I have no problems with the Milwaukee
motor falling out of the base under my table (and nor should anybody else),
because I support it with my hand when making coarse adjustments. It is
that simple. I mean, you have to push it up and down to make the coarse
adjustment anyhow! Just make sure your hand is there before you press the
release.

Brian.

"Brian" wrote in message
...

I understood your "point" the first time, but I still can't understand the
need for for any safety mechanism. I have no problems with the Milwaukee
motor falling out of the base under my table (and nor should anybody
else),
because I support it with my hand when making coarse adjustments. It is
that simple. I mean, you have to push it up and down to make the coarse
adjustment anyhow! Just make sure your hand is there before you press the
release.

I am not faulting the Milwaukee. I was just doing a comparison of the
two routers in this respect. I discovered this when I held the Milwaukee
upside down in the store by the housing and almost dumped the motor on the
floor when I depressed the coarse adjustment button. If the router is down
or extended to the end of the "adjustment screw" and you reach under to
lower the bit a bit more by the fine tune adjustment knob, you may not be
holding the bottom of the router and you may run out of threads to hold the
motor in the base. Not likely but it could happen. It would be something
that you should be aware of when making any kind of an adjustment. This
simply cannot happen with the Triton and or the current Bosch fixed base
routers. I see your point that it is unlikely that it would drop during
actual working conditions and 99.9 % of all adjustments under a table.

And those with plunge routers who adjust up top like the router guys also
have no problem with fine adjust.

All in how you work, I guess.

"Brian" wrote in message
...
I understood your "point" the first time, but I still can't understand the
need for for any safety mechanism. I have no problems with the Milwaukee
motor falling out of the base under my table (and nor should anybody
else),
because I support it with my hand when making coarse adjustments. It is
that simple. I mean, you have to push it up and down to make the coarse
adjustment anyhow! Just make sure your hand is there before you press the
release.

Brian.

"Leon" wrote in message
...

Speaking of convenience, plunging a router upside down seems to me to be
less than optimal.

Exactly, except the Triton has eliminated this trait. The router
basically
converts to a fixed base like router with the twist of a lock knob. In
the
hanging under a table position, you turn a lock in one of the handles and
then the router will no longer plunge. You then engage a release on the
handle and then turn the handle to raise or lower the motor. Let go of
the
release on the knob and the motor locks in at that position and then you
can
fine tune that position with another fine tune knob. No lifting at all on
your part.

Ah. Nice. Indeed an innovation. But why bother making it a hybrid plunge /
fixed? Who is going to ever use it as a plunger under a table?


And having to adjust the depth stop constantly would
annoy me, although if the Triton has a toolless adjustment that might be
better.

The Triton only needs a wrench to tighten or loosen the collet.

I was referring to the plunge depth stop, but apparently this isn't an issue
based on its design.

Brian.

"Brian" wrote in message
...

Ah. Nice. Indeed an innovation. But why bother making it a hybrid plunge
/
fixed? Who is going to ever use it as a plunger under a table?

You probably would not want to use it as a plunge router under the table.
But Suppose you remove it from the table and want to use it free hand as a
plunge router. You can do that also.


Take a look here for a detailed review. I am not trying to change your mind
here. Just a very interesting review with pictures. Note that the review
was on the first release routers and the problem areas have been addressed.
I read the review including the "1 year later" review about 4 times before
seriousely considering the Triton.

Initial review http://www.mv.com/users/besposito/woodworking/triton/

The 1 year later review can be found at
http://www.mv.com/users/besposito/woodworking/

G.E.R.R.Y. wrote:

Which is better under a router table, plunge or non-plunge? I've
watched the Router Workshop on TV with the older guy and his son and
they swear by the plunge router with the springs removed. Is there a
real advantage to that or is it just individual preferences?

Gerry so many questions, so little knowledge

P.S. Yet another question, is there a proper name for "non-plunge"?

Some plunge routers can be adjusted for height with the router under the
table--the plunge mechanism becomes in effect a router lift. That's not
possible with any non-plunge I know of unless you use a router lift. On
the other hand, the highest-capacity non-plunge routers can swing a larger
diameter bit than the highest capacity plunge routers with the exception, I
believe, of the Triton. Really depends on what you want to do and how much
you want to spend. A non-plunge router in a lift is from an operational
viewpoint a more satisfactory solution IMO, but it's also more expensive.

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
G.E.R.R.Y. wrote:

Some plunge routers can be adjusted for height with the router under the
table--the plunge mechanism becomes in effect a router lift.

Huh? Unless you disable the springs, the plunge routers become twice as
heavy to lift or adjust under the table. Now if you are talking avout the
fine tune adjustments that some plunge routers are capable of making, I
agree.

That's not possible with any non-plunge I know of unless you use a router
lift.

Lets see, Bosch, Porter Cable, DeWalt, Milwaukee all make fixed base
routers that have the ability to raise and lower in minute increments if
necessary when used in a router table.

On the other hand, the highest-capacity non-plunge routers can swing a
larger
diameter bit than the highest capacity plunge routers with the exception,
I
believe, of the Triton.

And the 1611 Bosch, 1619 Bosch, 3612 Makita, DeWalt 625, and the M12V
Hitachi can easily handle wide raised panel bits. These are all plunge
routers and some of them have been around since the 80's.

"Leon" wrote in message news:TZmDc.8989
Some plunge routers can be adjusted for height with the router under the
table--the plunge mechanism becomes in effect a router lift.

Huh? Unless you disable the springs, the plunge routers become twice as
heavy to lift or adjust under the table. Now if you are talking about the
fine tune adjustments that some plunge routers are capable of making, I
agree.

You're right it is harder to use with the springs still in, but if you only
have a few different profiles to cut, then the one or two adjustments even
with the springs in are not that difficult. I've got a Makita 3612BR and for
those times when I know I'm going to have multiple adjustments to make, I
remove the springs first and after that, all adjustments are really easy.

Non-plunge = fixed. But I prefer a plunge also. Why, that's how I
started and it works for me. Mark L.

G.E.R.R.Y. wrote:

Which is better under a router table, plunge or non-plunge? I've
watched the Router Workshop on TV with the older guy and his son and
they swear by the plunge router with the springs removed. Is there a
real advantage to that or is it just individual preferences?

Gerry so many questions, so little knowledge

P.S. Yet another question, is there a proper name for "non-plunge"?

By the way, here is Pat Warner's take. He's someone to listen to. :-)

http://www.patwarner.com/plunge_or_fixed.html

Brian.


"G.E.R.R.Y." wrote in message
.. .
Which is better under a router table, plunge or non-plunge? I've
watched the Router Workshop on TV with the older guy and his son and
they swear by the plunge router with the springs removed. Is there a
real advantage to that or is it just individual preferences?

Gerry so many questions, so little knowledge

P.S. Yet another question, is there a proper name for "non-plunge"?

In article , G.E.R.R.Y.
wrote:

Which is better under a router table, plunge or non-plunge? I've
watched the Router Workshop on TV with the older guy and his son and
they swear by the plunge router with the springs removed. Is there a
real advantage to that or is it just individual preferences?

Gerry so many questions, so little knowledge

P.S. Yet another question, is there a proper name for "non-plunge"?

Thanks to all who posted responses. You guys are the best. You've NEVER
let me down when I've needed advice.

Gerry