If you are watching the american president on the telly delivering a speech
in Westminster Hall take a look if you can at the roof. It is one of the
great medieval roofs, a carved oak hammerbeam structure spanning 70ft.

It's suprisingly difficult to find a good picture of it for you. If I find
one I will post it, but the Hammerbeam structure is used where no single
timber is long enough to span the roof, and there are no intermediate
arcades and columns. It was designed and constructed without engineering and
calculation, but by the craft tradition, experience and experiment.

Tim w

"Tim W" wrote in message
...

...Westminster Hall ...oak hammerbeam ...

... find a good picture of it .... If I find one I will post it...

This is about the best I can find:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/uk_parl...n/photostream/

It is quite a piece of work. TBH I don't think anyone could build it again
now, not for any money, not for any number of suits with clipboards and
laptops, Not unless you started by growing the trees while you trained
carpenters from boyhood.

tim W

On Wed, 25 May 2011 21:55:56 +0100, "Tim W"
wrote:


"Tim W" wrote in message
...

...Westminster Hall ...oak hammerbeam ...

... find a good picture of it .... If I find one I will post it...

This is about the best I can find:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/uk_parl...n/photostream/

Wow, unreal!


It is quite a piece of work. TBH I don't think anyone could build it again
now, not for any money, not for any number of suits with clipboards and
laptops, Not unless you started by growing the trees while you trained
carpenters from boyhood.

Sure someone could. It would be hell to find the trees, though, so
substitutes might be required.

--
Education should provide the tools for a widening and deepening
of life, for increased appreciation of all one sees or experiences.
It should equip a person to live life well, to understand what is
happening around him, for to live life well one must live life with
awareness. -- Louis L'Amour

Tim W wrote:


It is quite a piece of work. TBH I don't think anyone could build it
again now, not for any money, not for any number of suits with
clipboards and laptops, Not unless you started by growing the trees
while you trained carpenters from boyhood.


Indeed - quite a piece of work. Could not be built again now? Bull. It's
nice to romanticise the artisans of the past and fool ourselves into
believing that they are somehow different fromn the artisans of today- if
that's what really makes you feel good. But... it's just not true. So -
let's throw this over into your court and ask you just exactly how you feel
these older artisans were so much better empowered to produce so works of
art?

--

-Mike-

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...
Tim W wrote:


It is quite a piece of work. TBH I don't think anyone could build it
again now, not for any money, not for any number of suits with
clipboards and laptops, Not unless you started by growing the trees
while you trained carpenters from boyhood.


Indeed - quite a piece of work. Could not be built again now? Bull.
It's nice to romanticise the artisans of the past and fool ourselves into
believing that they are somehow different fromn the artisans of today- if
that's what really makes you feel good. But... it's just not true. So -
let's throw this over into your court and ask you just exactly how you
feel these older artisans were so much better empowered to produce so
works of art?


It isn't an argument which goes 'can be done'/'can't be done'. If the Irish
put a bomb in it or it caught fire it would be rebuilt. There is no question
that it can be rebuilt but also that it can never be rebuilt the same as it
was. What I am saying is that the work is so big, so elaborate and so
totally medieval and 'of it's time' that no amount of money and technology
could rebuild it so that it was really like the old one.

You might say you could make it look the same. That would be easy.
Lightweight steel roof, polystyrene rafters, PU trusses and purlins, get
Robatoy to carve the angels with his CNC thing, spay it up with latex to a
good oaky brown.... It would look fine but it would just be Disneyland.

You might say you want it rebuilt out of oak and you could do that too. I
see from Zz,s link that Stirling Castle has a new oak roof:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ha...ing_Castle.jpg
But I can tell you that it isn't going to be the same. You might get an
expert in medieval carpentry to produce a fine detailed set of drawings, but
every architect, engineer, contractor and accountant on the job will have
ideas about how to strengthen, improve, fireproof, reduce weight, cut costs,
simplify, alter invisibly and adapt for efficient production. The thing will
be full of epoxy glue joins and stainless rigging screws and all those
moulding which were subtley different on each truss will be made the same,
and where the thickness of each cleft wedge had been different because a boy
had made each one to fit, now they would be run off identical 200 at a time.
Then you would come to the artistic side of the carvings, and faking
artworks is a whole other field.

So maybe you have a massive budget and strict instructions to rebuild
exactly as it was. You rob every cathedral in Europe of all the craftsmen
who have spent years repairing medieval oak roofs and you scour the country
for 500 yr old oak trees which survived the devastation caused by building
the Royal Navy in the 1700s, and then where are you going to start? You
can't cut those trees in a sawmill because they can't be too square and most
of them are curved, better dig a sawpit in the forest and appoint a master
sawyer to decide how much out of true is acceptable. Then deliver the timber
to the carpenters, don't let them use tape measures or any electric tools.
They will have to get the smiths to make a set of adzes to rough out those
mouldings then a set of gouges and maybe a plane or two before they start...

....do you see what I am getting at? You may as well set up a guild system
and settle in for an eighty year project because it probably took eighty
years to build in the 14th century and the only way of doing it the same is
to do it all the same. It's not that the people are different or that the
skills are even lost, it's because a building the is the product of the
society that made it. we can't make it the same because we don't have the
same economy or the same society but also we don't have the same attitudes,
the same sense of common purpose, the same calling to build for the glory of
God or the King, the same humility to labour with patience... all these
things are lost and can't be reproduced.

Maybe I have gone on a bit lol.

Tim W

Tim W wrote:
"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...
Tim W wrote:


It is quite a piece of work. TBH I don't think anyone could build it
again now, not for any money, not for any number of suits with
clipboards and laptops, Not unless you started by growing the trees
while you trained carpenters from boyhood.


Indeed - quite a piece of work. Could not be built again now? Bull.
It's nice to romanticise the artisans of the past and fool ourselves
into believing that they are somehow different fromn the artisans of
today- if that's what really makes you feel good. But... it's just
not true. So - let's throw this over into your court and ask you
just exactly how you feel these older artisans were so much better
empowered to produce so works of art?


It isn't an argument which goes 'can be done'/'can't be done'. If the
Irish put a bomb in it or it caught fire it would be rebuilt. There
is no question that it can be rebuilt but also that it can never be
rebuilt the same as it was. What I am saying is that the work is so
big, so elaborate and so totally medieval and 'of it's time' that no
amount of money and technology could rebuild it so that it was really
like the old one.


Snip...

Maybe I have gone on a bit lol.


Nah - you went on just fine. Sorry - I completely missed your original
intended position. My bad - I will now go back to my corner and sit facing
it...


--

-Mike-

Well said Tim.

On 5/26/2011 5:29 AM, Tim W wrote:

"Mike wrote in message
...
Tim W wrote:


It is quite a piece of work. TBH I don't think anyone could build it
again now, not for any money, not for any number of suits with
clipboards and laptops, Not unless you started by growing the trees
while you trained carpenters from boyhood.


Indeed - quite a piece of work. Could not be built again now? Bull.
It's nice to romanticise the artisans of the past and fool ourselves into
believing that they are somehow different fromn the artisans of today- if
that's what really makes you feel good. But... it's just not true. So -
let's throw this over into your court and ask you just exactly how you
feel these older artisans were so much better empowered to produce so
works of art?


It isn't an argument which goes 'can be done'/'can't be done'. If the Irish
put a bomb in it or it caught fire it would be rebuilt. There is no question
that it can be rebuilt but also that it can never be rebuilt the same as it
was. What I am saying is that the work is so big, so elaborate and so
totally medieval and 'of it's time' that no amount of money and technology
could rebuild it so that it was really like the old one.

You might say you could make it look the same. That would be easy.
Lightweight steel roof, polystyrene rafters, PU trusses and purlins, get
Robatoy to carve the angels with his CNC thing, spay it up with latex to a
good oaky brown.... It would look fine but it would just be Disneyland.

You might say you want it rebuilt out of oak and you could do that too. I
see from Zz,s link that Stirling Castle has a new oak roof:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ha...ing_Castle.jpg
But I can tell you that it isn't going to be the same. You might get an
expert in medieval carpentry to produce a fine detailed set of drawings, but
every architect, engineer, contractor and accountant on the job will have
ideas about how to strengthen, improve, fireproof, reduce weight, cut costs,
simplify, alter invisibly and adapt for efficient production. The thing will
be full of epoxy glue joins and stainless rigging screws and all those
moulding which were subtley different on each truss will be made the same,
and where the thickness of each cleft wedge had been different because a boy
had made each one to fit, now they would be run off identical 200 at a time.
Then you would come to the artistic side of the carvings, and faking
artworks is a whole other field.

So maybe you have a massive budget and strict instructions to rebuild
exactly as it was. You rob every cathedral in Europe of all the craftsmen
who have spent years repairing medieval oak roofs and you scour the country
for 500 yr old oak trees which survived the devastation caused by building
the Royal Navy in the 1700s, and then where are you going to start? You
can't cut those trees in a sawmill because they can't be too square and most
of them are curved, better dig a sawpit in the forest and appoint a master
sawyer to decide how much out of true is acceptable. Then deliver the timber
to the carpenters, don't let them use tape measures or any electric tools.
They will have to get the smiths to make a set of adzes to rough out those
mouldings then a set of gouges and maybe a plane or two before they start...

...do you see what I am getting at? You may as well set up a guild system
and settle in for an eighty year project because it probably took eighty
years to build in the 14th century and the only way of doing it the same is
to do it all the same. It's not that the people are different or that the
skills are even lost, it's because a building the is the product of the
society that made it. we can't make it the same because we don't have the
same economy or the same society but also we don't have the same attitudes,
the same sense of common purpose, the same calling to build for the glory of
God or the King, the same humility to labour with patience... all these
things are lost and can't be reproduced.

Maybe I have gone on a bit lol.

Tim W




--
Jack
You Can't Fix Stupid, but You Can Vote it Out!
http://jbstein.com

"Mike Marlow" wrote

Could not be built again now? Bull. It's
nice to romanticize the artisans of the past and fool ourselves into
believing that they are somehow different from the artisans of today- if
that's what really makes you feel good. But... it's just not true.


I'm not sure if it could be built today.

If it was, I would imagine someone would come up with a ANC router system to
do all the joinery of the timbers.

The problem would be the materials. Unless you cut down a protected forest,
there is not the old growth timber around to make the beams. Non old growth
would shrink too much to use in an application such as this.

-- Jim in NC

On Thu, 26 May 2011 20:07:59 -0700, "Morgans" wrote:

"Mike Marlow" wrote

Could not be built again now? Bull. It's
nice to romanticize the artisans of the past and fool ourselves into
believing that they are somehow different from the artisans of today- if
that's what really makes you feel good. But... it's just not true.


I'm not sure if it could be built today.

If it was, I would imagine someone would come up with a ANC router system to
do all the joinery of the timbers.

The problem would be the materials. Unless you cut down a protected forest,
there is not the old growth timber around to make the beams. Non old growth
would shrink too much to use in an application such as this.

Mr. McGui I just want to say one word to you. Just one word.
Benjamin: Yes, sir.
Mr. McGui Are you listening?
Benjamin: Yes, I am.
Mr. McGui Plastics.
Benjamin: Exactly how do you mean?

rdh

In article , Tim W wrote:

"Tim W" wrote in message
...

...Westminster Hall ...oak hammerbeam ...

... find a good picture of it .... If I find one I will post it...

This is about the best I can find:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/uk_parl...n/photostream/

It is quite a piece of work. TBH I don't think anyone could build it again
now, not for any money, not for any number of suits with clipboards and
laptops, Not unless you started by growing the trees while you trained
carpenters from boyhood.



Wow. Just imagine the labor time to make something like that.

--
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation
with the average voter. (Winston Churchill)

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org

On Wed, 25 May 2011 21:30:33 +0100, "Tim W"
wrote:

If you are watching the american president on the telly delivering a speech
in Westminster Hall take a look if you can at the roof. It is one of the
great medieval roofs, a carved oak hammerbeam structure spanning 70ft.

It's suprisingly difficult to find a good picture of it for you. If I find
one I will post it, but the Hammerbeam structure is used where no single
timber is long enough to span the roof, and there are no intermediate
arcades and columns. It was designed and constructed without engineering and
calculation, but by the craft tradition, experience and experiment.

Tim w


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammerbeam

Truely amazing.

-Zz

"Tim W" wrote in message
...
If you are watching the american president on the telly delivering a
speech in Westminster Hall take a look if you can at the roof. It is one
of the great medieval roofs, a carved oak hammerbeam structure spanning
70ft.

It's suprisingly difficult to find a good picture of it for you. If I find
one I will post it, but the Hammerbeam structure is used where no single
timber is long enough to span the roof, and there are no intermediate
arcades and columns. It was designed and constructed without engineering
and calculation, but by the craft tradition, experience and experiment.

Tim w



There is a worthwhile bit of a book on Japanese monumental
architecture somewhat appropriate here.
A particular historical Imperial edifice
sustained fatal fire damage in the a few dacades ago.

The species of slow-growth wood in the
size appropriate for the lost beams was commercially unknown,
posing a significant dilemma for restorationists; until. When
they looked up at an nearby part of the estate, they discovered the
builders, centuries past, had the foresight to plant trees of the
species which were by then more than sufficient to supply the
timbers needed. That is planning and perspective.

Regards,

Edward Hennessey

On Thu, 26 May 2011 13:54:55 -0700, "Edward Hennessey"
wrote:


"Tim W" wrote in message
...
If you are watching the american president on the telly delivering a
speech in Westminster Hall take a look if you can at the roof. It is one
of the great medieval roofs, a carved oak hammerbeam structure spanning
70ft.

It's suprisingly difficult to find a good picture of it for you. If I find
one I will post it, but the Hammerbeam structure is used where no single
timber is long enough to span the roof, and there are no intermediate
arcades and columns. It was designed and constructed without engineering
and calculation, but by the craft tradition, experience and experiment.

Tim w



There is a worthwhile bit of a book on Japanese monumental
architecture somewhat appropriate here.
A particular historical Imperial edifice
sustained fatal fire damage in the a few dacades ago.

The species of slow-growth wood in the
size appropriate for the lost beams was commercially unknown,
posing a significant dilemma for restorationists; until. When
they looked up at an nearby part of the estate, they discovered the
builders, centuries past, had the foresight to plant trees of the
species which were by then more than sufficient to supply the
timbers needed. That is planning and perspective.

Speaking of planning and perspective, this just in via email:

Brilliant in its simplicity...

A. Back off and let those men who want to marry men, marry men.

B. Allow those women who want to marry women, marry women.

C. Allow those folks who want to abort their babies, abort their
babies.

D. In three generations, there will _be_ no Democrats.


Damn! - I love it when a plan comes together...

--
Education should provide the tools for a widening and deepening
of life, for increased appreciation of all one sees or experiences.
It should equip a person to live life well, to understand what is
happening around him, for to live life well one must live life with
awareness. -- Louis L'Amour

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...

D. In three generations, there will _be_ no Democrats.

The same thing could be accomplished with Republicans if laws against
cousins marrying were strictly enforced.