I am opposed to the death penalty.

Took a tour of the execution facility used in 1950 by the State of
Ohio and I doubt I'll ever forget it.

Having said that, I'm beginning to have a totally different opinion of
piracy.

The old timers had it right IMHO.

Capture a pirate vessel,.forget the trial, hang the crew and throw
them
over board, scuttle the pirate vessel, and keep on truck'in.

Obviously oil is driving current events.

Sooner or later; however, this problem has to be resolved.

Off the box.

Lew

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
eb.com...
I am opposed to the death penalty.

Took a tour of the execution facility used in 1950 by the State of
Ohio and I doubt I'll ever forget it.

Having said that, I'm beginning to have a totally different opinion of
piracy.

The old timers had it right IMHO.

Capture a pirate vessel,.forget the trial, hang the crew and throw them
over board, scuttle the pirate vessel, and keep on truck'in.

Why bother capturing it? Sink it and let the sea gather its own.

I am against the death penalty as well, but not for any reasons of
benevolence. I have my doubts about our law enforcement community,
but setting that aside their is a much larger topic to consider when
being for or against it.

Cost.

We now have legislation penned and is somewhere in our Texas state
legislature that would stop the death penalty. The reason? Nooo....
we aren't trying to join our more enlightened and liberal friends, it
is simply the money. That is the whole intent behind the proposed
law, to save money.

I have read all manner of crazy numbers on this issue, but it appears
that housing an inmate costs about $50 a day, and for capital crimes
the inmate stays in something like 12 years. Appeals are limited, and
often dismissed out of hand in these cases. Cost (in round numbers)
is somewhere around 200K + for incarceration, and somewhere along the
lines of $80K - $100K for capital cases. For easy numbers, probably
about $275K to $325K.

However, from start to finish, I have read that the whole process from
the lengthy trial, appeals process (automatic appeal when death
penalty is handed down), and housing/maintenance/security for the
special cells on death row runs the bill way up. Somewhere to the
tune of 1.2 million dollars before the process is finished.

Crap!! It costs us four more times the amount to get rid of them as
it does to simply house them! So the proponents of the law are
selling the point that we get about 4+ for 1 if we quit executing
them. Makes sense to me.

Those are round numbers drawn from memory. I am sure the Google
professors can find the right cites to get the numbers more exact.

I always look at the death penalty as the old saying "it depends on
who's ox is in the ditch".

When in discussion, I always try to avoid issues that are simply
expressions of opinion. We can't change anything so what is the point
of spending the jaw time on it? But if pushed, I always ask this
question:

"If your wife was repeated raped and then beaten to death, would you
still feel the same way? What if something was done to your kids?
What is that was done to all of them?"

It seems it is easier to be philosophical and to subscribe to a
higher, cleaner, academic style of thinking when you and your loved
ones aren't the victims.

You cannot imagine how elated I was when they posed a form of that
question to Mike Dukakis. I remember though, he struggled hard and
didn't lie... he just stumbled around a lot for a while. I guess he
never thought about opposing the death penalty in that context.

I had a very good friend of mine was tied up and sexually assaulted
and beaten continually for about 7 hours as a night's amusement for
someone a many years ago. After all the plastic surgeries to put her
face back together, all the years of therapy, and all the time passed,
she is still a very different and in some ways a broken, person. Since
then I have decided they should be able to execute some of these guys
several times, not just once. Maybe some torture like they inflict on
others would be a good thing, too.

I guess like a lot of us though, I can be a little ambivalent as to
whether it is good to execute or not.

But, the financial aspect is the first thing in the whole argument
that made real sense to me. With that in mind, I am against the death
penalty.

Oh yeah... as far as the pirates go, if it is the Somalis, they really
shouldn't be a problem. Typically, they approach the slow moving
ships in fast Zodiac rubber boats launched from a mother ship,
threatening to sink the ship with an RPG. A .50 cal would stop the
little rubber boat far enough away to stay out of the 150 - 200 yard
range of the typical RPG. So would an M60. Problem solved. Less
pirates on the seas as a side benefit.

Robert

wrote in message
...
I am against the death penalty as well, but not for any reasons of
benevolence. I have my doubts about our law enforcement community,
but setting that aside their is a much larger topic to consider when
being for or against it.

Cost.
snip

I had a very good friend of mine was tied up and sexually assaulted
and beaten continually for about 7 hours as a night's amusement for
someone a many years ago. After all the plastic surgeries to put her
face back together, all the years of therapy, and all the time passed,
she is still a very different and in some ways a broken, person. Since
then I have decided they should be able to execute some of these guys
several times, not just once. Maybe some torture like they inflict on
others would be a good thing, too.

I guess like a lot of us though, I can be a little ambivalent as to
whether it is good to execute or not.

But, the financial aspect is the first thing in the whole argument
that made real sense to me. With that in mind, I am against the death
penalty.

How about a lobotomy? No, not for you, for the perps. Quick snippage and out
to a sheltered workshop to make basketry.

"Lobby Dosser" wrote in message
...
"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
eb.com...
I am opposed to the death penalty.

Took a tour of the execution facility used in 1950 by the State of
Ohio and I doubt I'll ever forget it.

Having said that, I'm beginning to have a totally different opinion of
piracy.

The old timers had it right IMHO.

Capture a pirate vessel,.forget the trial, hang the crew and throw them
over board, scuttle the pirate vessel, and keep on truck'in.

Why bother capturing it? Sink it and let the sea gather its own.

Might be worth retaking the bounty and returning to rightful owners.

wrote in message
...
I am against the death penalty as well, but not for any reasons of
benevolence. I have my doubts about our law enforcement community,
but setting that aside their is a much larger topic to consider when
being for or against it.

Cost.

We now have legislation penned and is somewhere in our Texas state
legislature that would stop the death penalty. The reason? Nooo....
we aren't trying to join our more enlightened and liberal friends, it
is simply the money. That is the whole intent behind the proposed
law, to save money.

I have read all manner of crazy numbers on this issue, but it appears
that housing an inmate costs about $50 a day, and for capital crimes
the inmate stays in something like 12 years. Appeals are limited, and
often dismissed out of hand in these cases. Cost (in round numbers)
is somewhere around 200K + for incarceration, and somewhere along the
lines of $80K - $100K for capital cases. For easy numbers, probably
about $275K to $325K.

However, from start to finish, I have read that the whole process from
the lengthy trial, appeals process (automatic appeal when death
penalty is handed down), and housing/maintenance/security for the
special cells on death row runs the bill way up. Somewhere to the
tune of 1.2 million dollars before the process is finished.

The cost is really or should really only really be a few dollars to execute
some one. A bullet is all that is needed.
I understand the analysis, that in the grand scheme of things, that much
more money is spent leading up to the execution however that is not the
execution cost, it is the continued defence and accommodations cost. There
should be a limit to the amount of money that is spent on both sides.

If our system were more decisive about how to treat the guilty perhaps that
in itself would be enough deterrent to cut down on crime.

Sorta'a like your pirate solution you described. ;~)

On Mar 29, 8:24*am, "Leon" wrote:
wrote in message

...





I am against the death penalty as well, but not for any reasons of
benevolence. *I have my doubts about our law enforcement community,
but setting that aside their is a much larger topic to consider when
being for or against it.

Cost.

We now have legislation penned and is somewhere in our Texas state
legislature that would stop the death penalty. *The reason? *Nooo.....
we aren't trying to join our more enlightened and liberal friends, it
is simply the money. *That is the whole intent behind the proposed
law, to save money.

I have read all manner of crazy numbers on this issue, but it appears
that housing an inmate costs about $50 a day, and for capital crimes
the inmate stays in something like 12 years. *Appeals are limited, and
often dismissed out of hand in these cases. *Cost (in round numbers)
is somewhere around 200K + for incarceration, and somewhere along the
lines of $80K - $100K for capital cases. *For easy numbers, probably
about $275K to $325K.

However, from start to finish, I have read that the whole process from
the lengthy trial, appeals process (automatic appeal when death
penalty is handed down), and housing/maintenance/security for the
special cells on death row runs the bill way up. *Somewhere to the
tune of 1.2 million dollars before the process is finished.

The cost is really or should really only really be a few dollars to execute
some one. *A bullet is all that is needed.
I understand the analysis, that in the grand scheme of things, that much
more money is spent leading up to the execution however that is not the
execution cost, it is the continued defence and accommodations cost. *There
should be a limit to the amount of money that is spent on both sides.

If our system were more decisive about how to treat the guilty perhaps that
in itself would be enough deterrent to cut down on crime.

Sorta'a like your pirate solution you described. *;~)

Overzealous DA's with political ambitions are part of the problem.
Those cut-throat *******s are the reason why sometimes innocent people
get railroaded into long sentences and even death.
If a crime has been committed which deserves the death penalty, you
should have two eyewitnesses, and one of them has to perform the
execution. That might be a bit 'old testament' but suggest a better
way.
The reason all those legal/appeal barriers, which increase costs,
exist, is that we allowed our friends in the legal professions to
create an income opportunity for themselves... you just can't trust
most of those who are trained to circumvent the truth.

As long as 'Tough On Crime/ Death Penalty' is a component of an
election formula, odds increase that innocent people are going to be
executed.
Now if *I* were to witness a murder and I knew another witness saw it
and confirmed what I saw, I would execute the perp.... if for no other
reason than to make sure no scumbag lawyer would be driving an
expensive car from the proceeds of a sham appeals process.... paid for
by the overburdened tax-payers.

The cost is really or should really only really be a few dollars to execute
some one. *A bullet is all that is needed.

Why use a bullet? A hangman's noose can be reused many times.

On Tue, 29 Mar 2011 07:05:31 -0500, "Leon"
wrote:


"Lobby Dosser" wrote in message
...
"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
eb.com...
I am opposed to the death penalty.

Took a tour of the execution facility used in 1950 by the State of
Ohio and I doubt I'll ever forget it.

Having said that, I'm beginning to have a totally different opinion of
piracy.

The old timers had it right IMHO.

Capture a pirate vessel,.forget the trial, hang the crew and throw them
over board, scuttle the pirate vessel, and keep on truck'in.

Why bother capturing it? Sink it and let the sea gather its own.

Might be worth retaking the bounty and returning to rightful owners.

Portable tactical neutron bombs would keep the hardware, mush the
software. Problems solved, probably at the cost of a few rounds of
artillery.

--
Most people assume the fights are going to be the right versus the left,
but it always is the reasonable versus the jerks.
-- Jimmy Wales

On Tue, 29 Mar 2011 05:49:02 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
wrote:

On Mar 29, 8:24Â*am, "Leon" wrote:
wrote in message

...





I am against the death penalty as well, but not for any reasons of
benevolence. Â*I have my doubts about our law enforcement community,
but setting that aside their is a much larger topic to consider when
being for or against it.

Cost.

We now have legislation penned and is somewhere in our Texas state
legislature that would stop the death penalty. Â*The reason? Â*Nooo....
we aren't trying to join our more enlightened and liberal friends, it
is simply the money. Â*That is the whole intent behind the proposed
law, to save money.

I have read all manner of crazy numbers on this issue, but it appears
that housing an inmate costs about $50 a day, and for capital crimes
the inmate stays in something like 12 years. Â*Appeals are limited, and
often dismissed out of hand in these cases. Â*Cost (in round numbers)
is somewhere around 200K + for incarceration, and somewhere along the
lines of $80K - $100K for capital cases. Â*For easy numbers, probably
about $275K to $325K.

However, from start to finish, I have read that the whole process from
the lengthy trial, appeals process (automatic appeal when death
penalty is handed down), and housing/maintenance/security for the
special cells on death row runs the bill way up. Â*Somewhere to the
tune of 1.2 million dollars before the process is finished.

Crazy, isn't it?


The cost is really or should really only really be a few dollars to execute
some one. Â*A bullet is all that is needed.

Bullet, sword, pinch of poison, etc.


I understand the analysis, that in the grand scheme of things, that much
more money is spent leading up to the execution however that is not the
execution cost, it is the continued defence and accommodations cost. Â*There
should be a limit to the amount of money that is spent on both sides.

If our system were more decisive about how to treat the guilty perhaps that
in itself would be enough deterrent to cut down on crime.

Agreed. Mandatory appeals are a travesty in themselves. Even if that
asshole has confessed and there is a video tape of him doing the
killings, the law demands an appeal. FTS!


Sorta'a like your pirate solution you described. Â*;~)

Overzealous DA's with political ambitions are part of the problem.
Those cut-throat *******s are the reason why sometimes innocent people
get railroaded into long sentences and even death.
If a crime has been committed which deserves the death penalty, you
should have two eyewitnesses, and one of them has to perform the
execution. That might be a bit 'old testament' but suggest a better
way.
The reason all those legal/appeal barriers, which increase costs,
exist, is that we allowed our friends in the legal professions to
create an income opportunity for themselves... you just can't trust
most of those who are trained to circumvent the truth.

As long as 'Tough On Crime/ Death Penalty' is a component of an
election formula, odds increase that innocent people are going to be
executed.

When you consider all the people the bad guys are going to kill,
inside prison or out, losing a couple innocents (as horribly
distasteful as it is) is still a winning proposition, though not for
these particular innocents.

I kinda liked the scenario in Escape from New York. Put up a wall,
dump in the hardened criminals, and then just forget 'em.


Now if *I* were to witness a murder and I knew another witness saw it
and confirmed what I saw, I would execute the perp.... if for no other
reason than to make sure no scumbag lawyer would be driving an
expensive car from the proceeds of a sham appeals process.... paid for
by the overburdened tax-payers.

That's a position many of us could agree with, and we'd sleep
comfortably at night.

--
Most people assume the fights are going to be the right versus the left,
but it always is the reasonable versus the jerks.
-- Jimmy Wales

On Tue, 29 Mar 2011 06:09:55 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:


The cost is really or should really only really be a few dollars to execute
some one. Â*A bullet is all that is needed.

Why use a bullet? A hangman's noose can be reused many times.

Bbbut, isn't the cruel and unusual punishment?

I love the "suicide watch" on Death Row, too.

Oh, the Muckin' Forons.

--
Most people assume the fights are going to be the right versus the left,
but it always is the reasonable versus the jerks.
-- Jimmy Wales

On Mar 29, 11:19*am, Larry Jaques
wrote:
On Tue, 29 Mar 2011 07:05:31 -0500, "Leon"
wrote:







"Lobby Dosser" wrote in message
...
"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
aweb.com...
I am opposed to the death penalty.

Took a tour of the execution facility used in 1950 by the State of
Ohio and I doubt I'll ever forget it.

Having said that, I'm beginning to have a totally different opinion of
piracy.

The old timers had it right IMHO.

Capture a pirate vessel,.forget the trial, hang the crew and throw them
over board, scuttle the pirate vessel, and keep on truck'in.

Why bother capturing it? Sink it and let the sea gather its own.

Might be worth retaking the bounty and returning to rightful owners.

Portable tactical neutron bombs would keep the hardware, mush the
software. *Problems solved, probably at the cost of a few rounds of
artillery.

--
Most people assume the fights are going to be the right versus the left,
but it always is the reasonable versus the jerks.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *-- Jimmy Wales

Neutron bombs are totally cool weapons, with a few drawbacks.
Along the lines of a nuclear hand grenade, one must have one helluvan
arm to throw it far enough so it won't mess up yo'own-ass. A neutron
bomb shell in artillery form must have a serious range as well.
Also, keeping those bombs fresh is difficult as their content's half-
life is about a decade.

dadiOH wrote the following:
Lew Hodgett wrote:


Annual cost of incarceration is about $45-$50K/yr/inmate.


Those suckers should be earning their keep, prisons should be self
supporting or close to it.

When I was a kid, the movie judges always sentenced the perps to X years at
hard labor. Whatever happened to the "hard labor" part?




Cruel and Unusual Punishment.

--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeroes after @

On Mar 29, 3:27*am, "Lew Hodgett" wrote:

As far as the pirates are concerned, they are past just the Zodiac
inflatable, they are operating more than 200 miles offshore.

As are fisherman. I was very surprised to see guys fishing the Indian
Ocean in small boats 700 miles from shore. The small boats have
mother ships the same way that the pirates do. In any guerrilla
action the trick is being able to tell the good guys from the bad. We
have a tough enough time with a 1000 mile line of border - I have no
idea how to effectively patrol a million square miles of ocean.

Offing the pirates on sight sounds great, but it creates problems for
the people and ships already held hostage. You'd essentially be
writing them off as well. When the topic of dealing with pirates
comes up some people refer to how the Romans dealt with piracy. I'm
not so sure that was anything more than marketing and spin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pompey#...st_the_pirates

R

On 3/29/2011 7:49 AM, Robatoy wrote:

Overzealous DA's with political ambitions are part of the problem.
Those cut-throat *******s are the reason why sometimes innocent people
get railroaded into long sentences and even death.
If a crime has been committed which deserves the death penalty, you
should have two eyewitnesses, and one of them has to perform the
execution. That might be a bit 'old testament' but suggest a better
way.
The reason all those legal/appeal barriers, which increase costs,
exist, is that we allowed our friends in the legal professions to
create an income opportunity for themselves... you just can't trust
most of those who are trained to circumvent the truth.

As long as 'Tough On Crime/ Death Penalty' is a component of an
election formula, odds increase that innocent people are going to be
executed.
Now if *I* were to witness a murder and I knew another witness saw it
and confirmed what I saw, I would execute the perp.... if for no other
reason than to make sure no scumbag lawyer would be driving an
expensive car from the proceeds of a sham appeals process.... paid for
by the overburdened tax-payers.

What he said ...

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

wrote in message
...

The cost is really or should really only really be a few dollars to
execute
some one. A bullet is all that is needed.

Why use a bullet? A hangman's noose can be reused many times.

You could use the gun in a court room and it would be easily concealed until
needed. The rope would take a few seconds longer, why waste time? '~)

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 29 Mar 2011 06:09:55 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:


The cost is really or should really only really be a few dollars to
execute
some one. A bullet is all that is needed.

Why use a bullet? A hangman's noose can be reused many times.

Bbbut, isn't the cruel and unusual punishment?

I love the "suicide watch" on Death Row, too.

Oh, the Muckin' Forons.



I heard George Carlin once question the procedure of the lethal injection.
Why do they wipe the injection spot with an alcohol swab?

wrote:
: I am against the death penalty as well, but not for any reasons of
: benevolence. I have my doubts about our law enforcement community,
: but setting that aside their is a much larger topic to consider when
: being for or against it.

: Cost.

I used to be (when I was much younger) morally opposed to the death penalty.
I'm not any more, but there have been enough cases of incompetence where the
wrong guy gets convicted and in some cases executed that I'm opposed to it on the
grounds that one wrongfully convicted and executed person is too many.

But I'm not convinced by the cost argument. If it were cheaper to
execute someone than to house him, then what?

So, I'm in principle in favor of the death penalty. For practical reasons,
I am not in favor of it, but want life sentences with *NO* chance for
release as a substitute. And I mean none. Unless they can prove to have been
wrongfully committed, some people really need to be removed permanently from society.

-- Andy Barss

"dadiOH" wrote in message
m...
Lew Hodgett wrote:

Annual cost of incarceration is about $45-$50K/yr/inmate.

Those suckers should be earning their keep, prisons should be self
supporting or close to it.

When I was a kid, the movie judges always sentenced the perps to X years
at hard labor. Whatever happened to the "hard labor" part?


And chain gangs. What happened to chain gangs? Last time I saw or heard of a
chain gang was 1961 in Alabama.

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 29 Mar 2011 07:05:31 -0500, "Leon"
wrote:


"Lobby Dosser" wrote in message
...
"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
eb.com...
I am opposed to the death penalty.

Took a tour of the execution facility used in 1950 by the State of
Ohio and I doubt I'll ever forget it.

Having said that, I'm beginning to have a totally different opinion of
piracy.

The old timers had it right IMHO.

Capture a pirate vessel,.forget the trial, hang the crew and throw them
over board, scuttle the pirate vessel, and keep on truck'in.

Why bother capturing it? Sink it and let the sea gather its own.

Might be worth retaking the bounty and returning to rightful owners.

Portable tactical neutron bombs would keep the hardware, mush the
software. Problems solved, probably at the cost of a few rounds of
artillery.


Dumping neutron bombs always seemed like a stupid decision to me. Mostly all
you want to do is get rid of the people who are attacking you.

wrote in message
...


However, from start to finish, I have read that the whole process from
the lengthy trial, appeals process (automatic appeal when death
penalty is handed down), and housing/maintenance/security for the
special cells on death row runs the bill way up. Somewhere to the
tune of 1.2 million dollars before the process is finished.

So shorten the process. Lawyers who fight death penalty cases are sometimes
open about their intention to delay, delay, delay without regard for the
merit of the endless motions and appeals they file. They're opposed to the
death penalty and so they'll do anything and everything to drag out the
process. Cut that off and the whole process gets way cheaper.

When in discussion, I always try to avoid issues that are simply
expressions of opinion. We can't change anything so what is the point
of spending the jaw time on it? But if pushed, I always ask this
question:

"If your wife was repeated raped and then beaten to death, would you
still feel the same way? What if something was done to your kids?
What is that was done to all of them?"

That should be irrelevant. The law is supposed to be applied equally, not
depending on whether the victim is someone you know.

Since
then I have decided they should be able to execute some of these guys
several times, not just once. Maybe some torture like they inflict on
others would be a good thing, too.

No, it would not. I think the death penalty should be available, although
not so much as a penalty as simply to ensure that a monster is never again
able to kill anyone. But we gain nothing by climbing down into the sewer
with the rapists and killers.

Oh yeah... as far as the pirates go, if it is the Somalis, they really
shouldn't be a problem. Typically, they approach the slow moving
ships in fast Zodiac rubber boats launched from a mother ship,
threatening to sink the ship with an RPG. A .50 cal would stop the
little rubber boat far enough away to stay out of the 150 - 200 yard
range of the typical RPG. So would an M60. Problem solved. Less
pirates on the seas as a side benefit.

Who mans these weapons, the military? That would require teams on hundreds
if not thousands of vessels passing through that area every year, that's a
lot of money and manpower. Arm the crews? Aside from relying on amateurs,
that would just mean that before long the pirates would replace the RPGs
with 82mm or 107mm recoilless, or something more sophisticated (which at
least some of them can certainly afford). You put a .50cal on a ship, the
pirates bring along a 23mm. You provide ships with snipers, the pirates
turn to wire-guided missiles to get their point across.

I like the idea of what the British called Q-ships, merchant vessels
provided with extra floatation and hidden weaponry, used to lure German
U-boats to the surface where they could surprise the sub with unexpected
firepower. Run a few of those up and down the sea lanes off Somalia and the
pirating business would get a lot riskier. But the pirates are not going to
disappear, poverty has a way of driving people into crime, always has,
always will.

"dadiOH" wrote in message
m...

Those suckers should be earning their keep, prisons should be self
supporting or close to it.

When I was a kid, the movie judges always sentenced the perps to X years
at hard labor. Whatever happened to the "hard labor" part?

Outsourced to China.

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
eb.com...
I am opposed to the death penalty.

Took a tour of the execution facility used in 1950 by the State of
Ohio and I doubt I'll ever forget it.

Having said that, I'm beginning to have a totally different opinion of
piracy.

The old timers had it right IMHO.

Capture a pirate vessel,.forget the trial, hang the crew and throw them
over board, scuttle the pirate vessel, and keep on truck'in.

Obviously oil is driving current events.

Sooner or later; however, this problem has to be resolved.

Off the box.

Lew

After reading all of the replies....An eye for an eye. As for the pirates
is it illegal for merchant ships to have bazookas for protection?

On Mar 29, 6:42*pm, "DGDevin" wrote:
wrote in ...

However, from start to finish, I have read that the whole process from
the lengthy trial, appeals process (automatic appeal when death
penalty is handed down), and housing/maintenance/security for the
special cells on death row runs the bill way up. *Somewhere to the
tune of 1.2 million dollars before the process is finished.

So shorten the process. *Lawyers who fight death penalty cases are sometimes
open about their intention to delay, delay, delay without regard for the
merit of the endless motions and appeals they file. *They're opposed to the
death penalty and so they'll do anything and everything to drag out the
process. *Cut that off and the whole process gets way cheaper.

When in discussion, I always try to avoid issues that are simply
expressions of opinion. *We can't change anything so what is the point
of spending the jaw time on it? *But if pushed, I always ask this
question:
"If your wife was repeated raped and then beaten to death, would you
still feel the same way? *What if something was done to your kids?
What is that was done to all of them?"

That should be irrelevant. *The law is supposed to be applied equally, not
depending on whether the victim is someone you know.

Since
then I have decided they should be able to execute some of these guys
several times, not just once. *Maybe some torture like they inflict on
others would be a good thing, too.

No, it would not. *I think the death penalty should be available, although
not so much as a penalty as simply to ensure that a monster is never again
able to kill anyone. *But we gain nothing by climbing down into the sewer
with the rapists and killers.

Oh yeah... as far as the pirates go, if it is the Somalis, they really
shouldn't be a problem. *Typically, they approach the slow moving
ships in fast Zodiac rubber boats launched from a mother ship,
threatening to sink the ship with an RPG. *A .50 cal would stop the
little rubber boat far enough away to stay out of the 150 - 200 yard
range of the typical RPG. *So would an M60. *Problem solved. *Less
pirates on the seas as a side benefit.

Who mans these weapons, the military? *That would require teams on hundreds
if not thousands of vessels passing through that area every year, that's a
lot of money and manpower. *Arm the crews? *Aside from relying on amateurs,
that would just mean that before long the pirates would replace the RPGs
with 82mm or 107mm recoilless, or something more sophisticated (which at
least some of them can certainly afford). *You put a .50cal on a ship, the
pirates bring along a 23mm. *You provide ships with snipers, the pirates
turn to wire-guided missiles to get their point across.

There's also the little problem of having armed ships entering
territorial waters. If a merchant ship is well enough armed to be
able to defend itself, well, there might not be any place for them to
dock when they get to their destination or for refueling. That alone
is a deal breaker for arming merchant ships.

I like the idea of what the British called Q-ships, merchant vessels
provided with extra floatation and hidden weaponry, used to lure German
U-boats to the surface where they could surprise the sub with unexpected
firepower. *Run a few of those up and down the sea lanes off Somalia and the
pirating business would get a lot riskier. *But the pirates are not going to
disappear, poverty has a way of driving people into crime, always has,
always will.

In a nutshell.

R

On Tue, 29 Mar 2011 15:12:15 -0700, "Lobby Dosser" wrote:

"dadiOH" wrote in message
om...
Lew Hodgett wrote:

Annual cost of incarceration is about $45-$50K/yr/inmate.

Those suckers should be earning their keep, prisons should be self
supporting or close to it.

When I was a kid, the movie judges always sentenced the perps to X years
at hard labor. Whatever happened to the "hard labor" part?


And chain gangs. What happened to chain gangs? Last time I saw or heard of a
chain gang was 1961 in Alabama.

Not exactly the same thing, but prison work crews are still used for cleanup
and such.

On Tue, 29 Mar 2011 15:23:58 -0700, "Lobby Dosser"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 29 Mar 2011 07:05:31 -0500, "Leon"
wrote:


"Lobby Dosser" wrote in message
...
"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
eb.com...
I am opposed to the death penalty.

Took a tour of the execution facility used in 1950 by the State of
Ohio and I doubt I'll ever forget it.

Having said that, I'm beginning to have a totally different opinion of
piracy.

The old timers had it right IMHO.

Capture a pirate vessel,.forget the trial, hang the crew and throw them
over board, scuttle the pirate vessel, and keep on truck'in.

Why bother capturing it? Sink it and let the sea gather its own.

Might be worth retaking the bounty and returning to rightful owners.

Portable tactical neutron bombs would keep the hardware, mush the
software. Problems solved, probably at the cost of a few rounds of
artillery.


Dumping neutron bombs always seemed like a stupid decision to me. Mostly all
you want to do is get rid of the people who are attacking you.

By "dumping" do you mean utilizing neutron bombs or getting rid of
their use?


--
The general effect was exactly like a microscopic view of a
small detachment of black beetles, in search of a dead rat.
-- John Ruskin

RicodJour wrote:
On Mar 29, 3:27 am, "Lew Hodgett" wrote:

As far as the pirates are concerned, they are past just the Zodiac
inflatable, they are operating more than 200 miles offshore.

As are fisherman. I was very surprised to see guys fishing the Indian
Ocean in small boats 700 miles from shore. The small boats have
mother ships the same way that the pirates do. In any guerrilla
action the trick is being able to tell the good guys from the bad. We
have a tough enough time with a 1000 mile line of border - I have no
idea how to effectively patrol a million square miles of ocean.

Offing the pirates on sight sounds great, but it creates problems for
the people and ships already held hostage. You'd essentially be
writing them off as well. When the topic of dealing with pirates
comes up some people refer to how the Romans dealt with piracy. I'm
not so sure that was anything more than marketing and spin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pompey#...st_the_pirates


You're right. We can never succeed by killing the workers. We have to
destroy the nest.

On Mar 29, 8:26*pm, "HeyBub" wrote:
RicodJour wrote:
On Mar 29, 3:27 am, "Lew Hodgett" wrote:

As far as the pirates are concerned, they are past just the Zodiac
inflatable, they are operating more than 200 miles offshore.

As are fisherman. *I was very surprised to see guys fishing the Indian
Ocean in small boats 700 miles from shore. *The small boats have
mother ships the same way that the pirates do. *In any guerrilla
action the trick is being able to tell the good guys from the bad. *We
have a tough enough time with a 1000 mile line of border - I have no
idea how to effectively patrol a million square miles of ocean.

Offing the pirates on sight sounds great, but it creates problems for
the people and ships already held hostage. *You'd essentially be
writing them off as well. *When the topic of dealing with pirates
comes up some people refer to how the Romans dealt with piracy. *I'm
not so sure that was anything more than marketing and spin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pompey#...st_the_pirates

You're right. We can never succeed by killing the workers. We have to
destroy the nest.

If Somalia had oil there wouldn't be piracy - you can bet on that.
What it needs is a working government that can police their own
people, and that's not happening anytime soon. The ship ransom's are
buying the latest in weaponry and making a lot of big fish in a little
pond. Pretty much irresistible to the poor ****-ants.

R

On Mar 29, 8:26*pm, "HeyBub" wrote:
RicodJour wrote:
On Mar 29, 3:27 am, "Lew Hodgett" wrote:

As far as the pirates are concerned, they are past just the Zodiac
inflatable, they are operating more than 200 miles offshore.

As are fisherman. *I was very surprised to see guys fishing the Indian
Ocean in small boats 700 miles from shore. *The small boats have
mother ships the same way that the pirates do. *In any guerrilla
action the trick is being able to tell the good guys from the bad. *We
have a tough enough time with a 1000 mile line of border - I have no
idea how to effectively patrol a million square miles of ocean.

Offing the pirates on sight sounds great, but it creates problems for
the people and ships already held hostage. *You'd essentially be
writing them off as well. *When the topic of dealing with pirates
comes up some people refer to how the Romans dealt with piracy. *I'm
not so sure that was anything more than marketing and spin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pompey#...st_the_pirates

You're right. We can never succeed by killing the workers. We have to
destroy the nest.

If Somalia had oil there wouldn't be piracy - you can bet on that.
What it needs is a working government that can police their own
people, and that's not happening anytime soon. The ship ransom's are
buying the latest in weaponry and making a lot of big fish in a little
pond. Pretty much irresistible to the poor ****-ants.

R

On Tue, 29 Mar 2011 11:48:39 -0500, Swingman wrote:

On 3/29/2011 7:49 AM, Robatoy wrote:

Overzealous DA's with political ambitions are part of the problem.
Those cut-throat *******s are the reason why sometimes innocent people
get railroaded into long sentences and even death.
If a crime has been committed which deserves the death penalty, you
should have two eyewitnesses, and one of them has to perform the
execution. That might be a bit 'old testament' but suggest a better
way.
The reason all those legal/appeal barriers, which increase costs,
exist, is that we allowed our friends in the legal professions to
create an income opportunity for themselves... you just can't trust
most of those who are trained to circumvent the truth.

As long as 'Tough On Crime/ Death Penalty' is a component of an
election formula, odds increase that innocent people are going to be
executed.
Now if *I* were to witness a murder and I knew another witness saw it
and confirmed what I saw, I would execute the perp.... if for no other
reason than to make sure no scumbag lawyer would be driving an
expensive car from the proceeds of a sham appeals process.... paid for
by the overburdened tax-payers.

What he said ...

No Kidding, well said

Mike M

"Lobby Dosser" wrote in message
...
"dadiOH" wrote in message
m...
Lew Hodgett wrote:

Annual cost of incarceration is about $45-$50K/yr/inmate.

Those suckers should be earning their keep, prisons should be self
supporting or close to it.

When I was a kid, the movie judges always sentenced the perps to X years
at hard labor. Whatever happened to the "hard labor" part?


And chain gangs. What happened to chain gangs? Last time I saw or heard of
a chain gang was 1961 in Alabama.

Fairly recently in Texas.

On 03/29/2011 03:12 PM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
"dadiOH" wrote in message
m...
Lew Hodgett wrote:

Annual cost of incarceration is about $45-$50K/yr/inmate.

Those suckers should be earning their keep, prisons should be self
supporting or close to it.

When I was a kid, the movie judges always sentenced the perps to X
years at hard labor. Whatever happened to the "hard labor" part?


And chain gangs. What happened to chain gangs? Last time I saw or heard
of a chain gang was 1961 in Alabama.

Check out Maricopa County, Arizona. Chain gangs are voluntary and open
to women and juveniles. Not really the chain gangs of yore...

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 29 Mar 2011 15:12:15 -0700, "Lobby Dosser"
wrote:

"dadiOH" wrote in message
. com...
Lew Hodgett wrote:

Annual cost of incarceration is about $45-$50K/yr/inmate.

Those suckers should be earning their keep, prisons should be self
supporting or close to it.

When I was a kid, the movie judges always sentenced the perps to X years
at hard labor. Whatever happened to the "hard labor" part?


And chain gangs. What happened to chain gangs? Last time I saw or heard of
a
chain gang was 1961 in Alabama.

Not exactly the same thing, but prison work crews are still used for
cleanup
and such.


Around here (Oregon) that seems do be done with short term (less than a
year, in general) prisoners from the local jails, not the prisoners from the
penitentiaries.

"Doug Winterburn" wrote in message
eb.com...
On 03/29/2011 03:12 PM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
"dadiOH" wrote in message
m...
Lew Hodgett wrote:

Annual cost of incarceration is about $45-$50K/yr/inmate.

Those suckers should be earning their keep, prisons should be self
supporting or close to it.

When I was a kid, the movie judges always sentenced the perps to X
years at hard labor. Whatever happened to the "hard labor" part?


And chain gangs. What happened to chain gangs? Last time I saw or heard
of a chain gang was 1961 in Alabama.

Check out Maricopa County, Arizona. Chain gangs are voluntary and open to
women and juveniles. Not really the chain gangs of yore...


Paul Newman!

Last I saw were out of Kilby Prison in Alabama.

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 29 Mar 2011 15:23:58 -0700, "Lobby Dosser"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
. ..
On Tue, 29 Mar 2011 07:05:31 -0500, "Leon"
wrote:


"Lobby Dosser" wrote in message
...
"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
eb.com...
I am opposed to the death penalty.

Took a tour of the execution facility used in 1950 by the State of
Ohio and I doubt I'll ever forget it.

Having said that, I'm beginning to have a totally different opinion
of
piracy.

The old timers had it right IMHO.

Capture a pirate vessel,.forget the trial, hang the crew and throw
them
over board, scuttle the pirate vessel, and keep on truck'in.

Why bother capturing it? Sink it and let the sea gather its own.

Might be worth retaking the bounty and returning to rightful owners.

Portable tactical neutron bombs would keep the hardware, mush the
software. Problems solved, probably at the cost of a few rounds of
artillery.


Dumping neutron bombs always seemed like a stupid decision to me. Mostly
all
you want to do is get rid of the people who are attacking you.

By "dumping" do you mean utilizing neutron bombs or getting rid of
their use?

We stopped building them. Bush the Elder.

Lobby Dosser wrote:
"dadiOH" wrote in message
m...
Lew Hodgett wrote:

Annual cost of incarceration is about $45-$50K/yr/inmate.

Those suckers should be earning their keep, prisons should be self
supporting or close to it.

When I was a kid, the movie judges always sentenced the perps to X
years at hard labor. Whatever happened to the "hard labor" part?


And chain gangs. What happened to chain gangs? Last time I saw or
heard of a chain gang was 1961 in Alabama.

still common in az

I saw my first and only chain gang working on a road project on Florida in
1974
Not sure if they were chained but the guns were watching closely.

Death Penalty.
I agree the death penalty is too harsh and useless for most crimes.

Second timers and prison guard / cop killers should be an exception but
based on televised & publicized US court cases I wouldn't trust an American
court decision to evaluate the crime with that serious of a penalty. Public
square horsewhipping comes to mind.

Somebody likes to start fights...LOL
---------------

"Lobby Dosser" wrote in message ...
And chain gangs. What happened to chain gangs? Last time I saw or heard of a
chain gang was 1961 in Alabama.

wrote:
I am against the death penalty as well, but not for any reasons of
benevolence. I have my doubts about our law enforcement community,
but setting that aside their is a much larger topic to consider when
being for or against it.

Cost.

We now have legislation penned and is somewhere in our Texas state
legislature that would stop the death penalty. The reason? Nooo....
we aren't trying to join our more enlightened and liberal friends, it
is simply the money. That is the whole intent behind the proposed
law, to save money.


Actual conversation as reported by the London Gazette:

Condemned man: "Whatcha hangin' me for, gov'nor? Hangin' me won't bring
Charlie back!"
Lord High Mayor of London: "Oh, we're not hanging you for killing Charlie.
We're hanging you so that others won't kill."

I've seen them in the 50's as a kid - they were cleaning
the streets after a flood. Man on horseback with a big gun.

Martin

On 3/30/2011 12:00 AM, CW wrote:
"Lobby wrote in message
...
wrote in message
m...
Lew Hodgett wrote:

Annual cost of incarceration is about $45-$50K/yr/inmate.

Those suckers should be earning their keep, prisons should be self
supporting or close to it.

When I was a kid, the movie judges always sentenced the perps to X years
at hard labor. Whatever happened to the "hard labor" part?


And chain gangs. What happened to chain gangs? Last time I saw or heard of
a chain gang was 1961 in Alabama.

Fairly recently in Texas.

On Wed, 30 Mar 2011 00:50:58 -0700, "Lobby Dosser" wrote:

wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 29 Mar 2011 15:12:15 -0700, "Lobby Dosser"
wrote:

"dadiOH" wrote in message
.com...
Lew Hodgett wrote:

Annual cost of incarceration is about $45-$50K/yr/inmate.

Those suckers should be earning their keep, prisons should be self
supporting or close to it.

When I was a kid, the movie judges always sentenced the perps to X years
at hard labor. Whatever happened to the "hard labor" part?


And chain gangs. What happened to chain gangs? Last time I saw or heard of
a
chain gang was 1961 in Alabama.

Not exactly the same thing, but prison work crews are still used for
cleanup
and such.


Around here (Oregon) that seems do be done with short term (less than a
year, in general) prisoners from the local jails, not the prisoners from the
penitentiaries.

Likely because of the flight risk.