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#1
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shed design
Looking to build a "small shed" (8x10) to store excess wood/garden
tools. While I have close to 2 acres, the most likely spots are a bit close to the house. I have a spot in mind, but as I've gone through a variety of plans, and designs, I find that the overall roof height is a bit imposing for the site I've blocked off. I think I can modify one or more of the designs by reducing the wall height and the pitch. I don't have to worry about snow, just rain. Most of the 8x10 shed designs seem to have 8x12 or 9x12 pitch. I'm thinking of reducing that to 3x12. My question, from an aesthetics point of view would that low pitch roof look odd on a 8x10 shed? I have some boards I put up to give a sense of the heights that are in the plans I have and to be honest, the heights just looks huge. I want something more discrete and not so noticable. Perhaps I should look for another spot? MJ |
#2
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shed design
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#3
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shed design
"Bill" wrote in message Sounds like a good excuse to use the SketchUp (free 3-D Modeling program). You could model all of the important features of your yard and move various incarnations of your shed around. If it's for a workshop, he could use Grizzly's workshop planner. Can't get much easier. http://grizzly.com/workshopplanner.aspx |
#4
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shed design
Upscale wrote:
wrote in message Sounds like a good excuse to use the SketchUp (free 3-D Modeling program). You could model all of the important features of your yard and move various incarnations of your shed around. If it's for a workshop, he could use Grizzly's workshop planner. Can't get much easier. http://grizzly.com/workshopplanner.aspx But it's for a backyard and a shed. Once you learn how to use the software, it's PDQ. And the model created will serve as a good starting point on the next project that comes around. Bill |
#5
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shed design
Upscale wrote:
wrote in message Sounds like a good excuse to use the SketchUp (free 3-D Modeling program). You could model all of the important features of your yard and move various incarnations of your shed around. If it's for a workshop, he could use Grizzly's workshop planner. Can't get much easier. http://grizzly.com/workshopplanner.aspx Upscale, you meant for the inside of the shed... I gothcha. Ignore my previous post. Bill |
#6
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shed design
"Bill" wrote in message Upscale, you meant for the inside of the shed... I gothcha. Ignore my previous post. No problem. The planner also has a misc. category tool which you can size to any dimension you want. You can use that to substitute for any planned shed furniture like a potting bench or something similar. |
#8
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shed design
"Jack Stein" wrote in message ... wrote: Looking to build a "small shed" (8x10) to store excess wood/garden tools. While I have close to 2 acres, the most likely spots are a bit close to the house. My first shed was 8x12 and it was close to useless. Filled that sucker up in the blink of an eye, and it was a bitch to get stuff out because it was packed to the gills. My 90 year old neighbor yelled at me when I built it, saying a shed can't be too big. I told him because of property lines, that was as big as I could go. He said put some of it on his property, he didn't care. I said what about when your not here... He said "where am I going?" He was 92 and still worked 7 days a week, 12 hours a day... My next shed was 14' long by 16' wide with a second floor. I designed it 25 years ago with Design Cad and it took me 40 hours or more to figure out how to use design cad. I could have done it on paper in an hour. Sketchup would be the way to go today, but that too has a nice learning curve, but well worth it. I made it so the first floor was 6'2" so I wouldn't have to duck. The roof I made to fit full sheets of plywood. The shed at the peak is 15' because the building guy said if it was over 15' it would be taxed and subject to all the building nonsense governments impose upon. The second floor is GREAT because you can store so much more, and it doesn't cost much more to build. I tucked mine into some trees in the back of my property. Here's a picture I took last year. Still in perfect shape after 25 years and numerous snows up to 3'. This shed is just right for me, not too big, not too small. I have to say it was one of the most satisfying things I've designed and built. Oh, I remember cruising a local shed dealer for design ideas, some of which I incorporated into mine. http://jbstein.com/Flick/Shed1030100.jpg Like your 14' long by 16' wide. How much snow can the roof take? Denis M My suggestion is to build it big as you can afford. 2 acres is enough land to accumulate lots of lawn and garden stuff. Before you start designing, go to a place that sells sheds and look them over, see what you like. I have some boards I put up to give a sense of the heights that are in the plans I have and to be honest, the heights just looks huge. I want something more discrete and not so noticable. Perhaps I should look for another spot? If you use sketchup, you can get a really good idea of what it will look like. If you build an eyesore, which many sheds are, hide it. If you make it aesthetically pleasing, you can put it in the open. I would think 2 acres is plenty of room for a rather large shed or small barn. -- Jack You Can't Fix Stupid, but You Can Vote it Out! http://jbstein.com |
#9
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shed design
On 2/20/2011 11:44 AM, Denis M wrote:
"Jack Stein" wrote in message: I tucked mine into some trees in the back of my property. Here's a picture I took last year. Still in perfect shape after 25 years and numerous snows up to 3'. This shed is just right for me, not too big, not too small. I have to say it was one of the most satisfying things I've designed and built. Oh, I remember cruising a local shed dealer for design ideas, some of which I incorporated into mine. http://jbstein.com/Flick/Shed1030100.jpg Like your 14' long by 16' wide. Yes, it turned out nice. I saw a 16 long by 14' wide commercial jobs, but none that were wider than deep. It looked good on paper, and it looks even better live. How much snow can the roof take? Denis M Up to 3' so far, and it's built of 2x4's on 24" center's. I made the trusses myself, but used those metal truss plates to connect them. They were flimsy as all get out until I got some structure on them. I'm not a builder but knew these are commonly used in houses, but I am a woodworker and after I built the shed, and even though the trusses seemed strong as hell, the next year I made wooden plates out of scrap plywood, cut them on the band saw and glued and nailed them to every joint, right over top of the metal plates. I figured the only thing that could go wrong is the joints spread as the roof transfers all the weight onto the side walls. I imagine it could take quite a bit of snow. The biggest snow we've had in the past 25 years was supposedly 3' about 10 years ago. I measured it because no where did I see 3', and the media always lies through their teeth, and best I got was 2 feet, so they were off by about 33%, about right for the lame ass media. Last year we got 2 feet, which I measured to about 19 inches. The shed is nestled in trees, and gets less snow than out in the open. -- Jack You Can't Fix Stupid, but You Can Vote it Out! http://jbstein.com |
#10
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shed design
On Mon, 21 Feb 2011 10:58:19 -0500, Jack Stein
wrote: On 2/20/2011 11:44 AM, Denis M wrote: snip How much snow can the roof take? Denis M Up to 3' so far, and it's built of 2x4's on 24" center's. I made the trusses myself, but used those metal truss plates to connect them. They were flimsy as all get out until I got some structure on them. Where did you get the truss plates? I couldn't buy them as I'm not certified to design wooded trusses. From the Simpson Strong-Tie web site: "Can I use your mending plates for truss fabrication? The mending plates shown in the Simpson Strong-Tie catalog are not intended for structural use. They have not been tested for structural applications and are not load rated. Metal Plate Connected Wood Trusses require specific design criteria as outlined by the Truss Plate Institute and in the current ANSI/TPI documents. Software specific to truss design is available through a number of truss plate suppliers. For more information regarding truss plate suppliers, contact the Truss Plate Institute at (608) 833-5900. " http://www.strongtie.com/productuse/faq-general.html -- Jack Novak Buffalo, NY - USA |
#11
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shed design
"Jack Stein" wrote in message ... On 2/20/2011 11:44 AM, Denis M wrote: "Jack Stein" wrote in message: I tucked mine into some trees in the back of my property. Here's a picture I took last year. Still in perfect shape after 25 years and numerous snows up to 3'. This shed is just right for me, not too big, not too small. I have to say it was one of the most satisfying things I've designed and built. Oh, I remember cruising a local shed dealer for design ideas, some of which I incorporated into mine. http://jbstein.com/Flick/Shed1030100.jpg Like your 14' long by 16' wide. Yes, it turned out nice. I saw a 16 long by 14' wide commercial jobs, but none that were wider than deep. It looked good on paper, and it looks even better live. How much snow can the roof take? Denis M Up to 3' so far, and it's built of 2x4's on 24" center's. I made the trusses myself, but used those metal truss plates to connect them. They were flimsy as all get out until I got some structure on them. I'm not a builder but knew these are commonly used in houses, but I am a woodworker and after I built the shed, and even though the trusses seemed strong as hell, the next year I made wooden plates out of scrap plywood, cut them on the band saw and glued and nailed them to every joint, right over top of the metal plates. I figured the only thing that could go wrong is the joints spread as the roof transfers all the weight onto the side walls. I imagine it could take quite a bit of snow. The biggest snow we've had in the past 25 years was supposedly 3' about 10 years ago. I measured it because no where did I see 3', and the media always lies through their teeth, and best I got was 2 feet, so they were off by about 33%, about right for the lame ass media. Last year we got 2 feet, which I measured to about 19 inches. The shed is nestled in trees, and gets less snow than out in the open. -- Jack You Can't Fix Stupid, but You Can Vote it Out! http://jbstein.com Thanks for the information. This year in New Brunswick a few commercial roofs did collapsed under the weight of snow and ice. I like to idea of re-enforcing the trusses with wooden plates. While driving to the ski hills I noticed that the Gambrel roof (like your) does not accumulate snow and ice as much as the traditional roof design. That will the design that I will be using for my shed. Denis M. |
#12
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shed design
On Tue, 15 Feb 2011 17:38:11 -0800 (PST), "
wrote: Looking to build a "small shed" (8x10) to store excess wood/garden tools. While I have close to 2 acres, the most likely spots are a bit close to the house. I have a spot in mind, but as I've gone through a variety of plans, and designs, I find that the overall roof height is a bit imposing for the site I've blocked off. I think I can modify one or more of the designs by reducing the wall height and the pitch. I don't have to worry about snow, just rain. Most of the 8x10 shed designs seem to have 8x12 or 9x12 pitch. I'm thinking of reducing that to 3x12. Not a problem unless you're in heavy-snow-load country or local codes prohibit it. I'd go with either composition roofing (glued down) or metal roofing with sealed top flashing. My question, from an aesthetics point of view would that low pitch roof look odd on a 8x10 shed? I have a 3:12 pitch roof on the house and a 1:10 slope on the carport. Works for me. I have some boards I put up to give a sense of the heights that are in the plans I have and to be honest, the heights just looks huge. Howzbout something like a shed roof style? g http://www.just-sheds.com/1210-R11.gif I want something more discrete and not so noticable. Perhaps I should look for another spot? Perhaps. -- The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools. --Herbert Spencer |
#13
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shed design
wrote in message ... Looking to build a "small shed" (8x10) to store excess wood/garden tools. While I have close to 2 acres, the most likely spots are a bit close to the house. I have a spot in mind, but as I've gone through a variety of plans, and designs, I find that the overall roof height is a bit imposing for the site I've blocked off. I think I can modify one or more of the designs by reducing the wall height and the pitch. I don't have to worry about snow, just rain. Most of the 8x10 shed designs seem to have 8x12 or 9x12 pitch. I'm thinking of reducing that to 3x12. My question, from an aesthetics point of view would that low pitch roof look odd on a 8x10 shed? I have some boards I put up to give a sense of the heights that are in the plans I have and to be honest, the heights just looks huge. I want something more discrete and not so noticable. Perhaps I should look for another spot? MJ Close to the house I would want the shed to resemble the house with similiar siding, trim and roof. 3x12 is a little flat for 3-tab. |
#14
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shed design
On Tue, 15 Feb 2011 19:17:48 -0800, "Pat" wrote:
wrote in message ... Looking to build a "small shed" (8x10) to store excess wood/garden tools. While I have close to 2 acres, the most likely spots are a bit close to the house. I have a spot in mind, but as I've gone through a variety of plans, and designs, I find that the overall roof height is a bit imposing for the site I've blocked off. I think I can modify one or more of the designs by reducing the wall height and the pitch. I don't have to worry about snow, just rain. Most of the 8x10 shed designs seem to have 8x12 or 9x12 pitch. I'm thinking of reducing that to 3x12. My question, from an aesthetics point of view would that low pitch roof look odd on a 8x10 shed? I have some boards I put up to give a sense of the heights that are in the plans I have and to be honest, the heights just looks huge. I want something more discrete and not so noticable. Perhaps I should look for another spot? MJ Close to the house I would want the shed to resemble the house with similiar siding, trim and roof. 3x12 is a little flat for 3-tab. 3.12 "shed" roof (no gable, sloped only one way) not in snow country works fine with standard shingles if the prevailing winds are not "up the roof" and if you increase your overlap about 25%. DO NOT forget the roofing felt under the shingles, and the drip edges. BluSeal self stick membrane or ice sheild over the whole roof is never a bad idea either. As far as code goes, in most places as long as there is no foundation (ot is a "temporary" or "portable" building and under 100 sq feet no code applies and no permit is required. Just make sure it is tied down well enough to withstand the highest foreseeable wind gusts!!! Nothing like watching your shed roll down the block in a wind storm! |
#15
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shed design
wrote in message ... Looking to build a "small shed" (8x10) to store excess wood/garden tools. While I have close to 2 acres, the most likely spots are a bit close to the house. I have a spot in mind, but as I've gone through a variety of plans, and designs, I find that the overall roof height is a bit imposing for the site I've blocked off. I think I can modify one or more of the designs by reducing the wall height and the pitch. I don't have to worry about snow, just rain. Most of the 8x10 shed designs seem to have 8x12 or 9x12 pitch. I'm thinking of reducing that to 3x12. My question, from an aesthetics point of view would that low pitch roof look odd on a 8x10 shed? I have some boards I put up to give a sense of the heights that are in the plans I have and to be honest, the heights just looks huge. I want something more discrete and not so noticable. Perhaps I should look for another spot? MJ My biggest concern after building just what you suggest was that I found out that I lost a lot of overhead storage room, and a small shed fills up fast enough to make it hard to get much in or out. I had a 10 x 14. I could live with the greater pitch, or even have the two pitches like a barn to get the extra overhead. Steve |
#16
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shed design
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#17
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shed design
"Robert Bonomi" wrote I (almost) hate to say it, in _this_ group, but you may well want to consider a metal storage shed. That'll get the low roof profile you are looking for (which will help greatly with the 'more discrete' aspect, and much lower maintenance. Incidentally, the fact that it's "pre- finished" makes an amazing difference in the amount of time/effort to project completion. They only work if you are under 5' tall. I had one, and poured a slab and put a 2' pony wall to mount the shed on top of. Steve |
#18
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shed design
In article ,
Steve B wrote: "Robert Bonomi" wrote I (almost) hate to say it, in _this_ group, but you may well want to consider a metal storage shed. That'll get the low roof profile you are looking for (which will help greatly with the 'more discrete' aspect, and much lower maintenance. Incidentally, the fact that it's "pre- finished" makes an amazing difference in the amount of time/effort to project completion. They only work if you are under 5' tall. I had one, and poured a slab and put a 2' pony wall to mount the shed on top of. Depends on the structure. _long_ ago, had one from Sears, no less, that had close to 7' internal clearance on the high wall -- just under 6' at the back wall. Door opening was only about 5'9", did have to duck stepping in. Here's one that is minimum 6' at the walls, and is over 7-1/2' at the ridge- pole. http://shedkitstore.com/document_product_info.html?products_id=231 |
#19
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shed design
wrote in message ... Looking to build a "small shed" (8x10) to store excess wood/garden tools. While I have close to 2 acres, the most likely spots are a bit close to the house. I have a spot in mind, but as I've gone through a variety of plans, and designs, I find that the overall roof height is a bit imposing for the site I've blocked off. I think I can modify one or more of the designs by reducing the wall height and the pitch. I don't have to worry about snow, just rain. Most of the 8x10 shed designs seem to have 8x12 or 9x12 pitch. I'm thinking of reducing that to 3x12. My question, from an aesthetics point of view would that low pitch roof look odd on a 8x10 shed? I have some boards I put up to give a sense of the heights that are in the plans I have and to be honest, the heights just looks huge. I want something more discrete and not so noticable. Perhaps I should look for another spot? MJ I think you could easily draw that on paper and get a good idea of what it would look like. On another note, for a few dollars more per sheet you can get radiant barrier decking over standard decking and that will keep you shed considerably cooler in the summer months. Cheap and no more work. |
#21
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shed design
My question, from an aesthetics point of view would that low pitch roof look odd on a 8x10 shed? That is like all the tin sheds. Also, I have a slighly bigger shed in mybackyard with a very low pitch like that. The roofing on my shed is some sort of corrugated stuff but much heavier than the typical galv or poly type. It is like 4' x 6' sheets, the corrugation is maybe 3" wide each and he stuff is about 1/4" thick. Kind of structural and enclosure all in one. It might be fiberglass or cementious or something. They have it at home depot. |
#22
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shed design
"SonomaProducts.com" wrote in message ... My question, from an aesthetics point of view would that low pitch roof look odd on a 8x10 shed? That is like all the tin sheds. Also, I have a slighly bigger shed in mybackyard with a very low pitch like that. The roofing on my shed is some sort of corrugated stuff but much heavier than the typical galv or poly type. It is like 4' x 6' sheets, the corrugation is maybe 3" wide each and he stuff is about 1/4" thick. Kind of structural and enclosure all in one. It might be fiberglass or cementious or something. They have it at home depot. There are some heavier, anodized metal sheets out there in a choice of gauges and colors and profiles.They are much pricier than the regular wavy corrugated fiberglass along with being more durable and handsome. Aside from rain as an expressed design consideration, if other factors allow, the OP might consider a translucent or transparent plastic material on one or both sides of the apex of his roof to allow permanent skylighting. A T-bar ridge of plastic "wood" would protect the joint there as would some of the aluminum ridge material available across a range of greenhouse suppliers. For plastic panels, Glassteel with a Tedlar coating has an exceptional lifetime. It is available in at least two profiles, the shiplap variety being much more forgiving when it comes to rafter allignment. Regards, Edward Hennessey |
#23
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shed design
On Feb 15, 7:38*pm, "
wrote: Looking to build a "small shed" (8x10) to store excess wood/garden tools. I built one this fall that is slightly larger - 10 x 14. I had some of the same concerns, especially since a smaller shed can end up looking like a church if you use standard studs and such. I wanted it to blend with the house as well as possible and here are a few things I did: - Used the shorter 86" studs instead of full length. This brought the ridge line down about 6" - Used the same roof slop as the house - 7:12 in our case. This provided a lot of room for overhead lofts in each end and storage (made shingling fun). - The house has 2' overhang all around and I used 1' overhang. - The lower eves of the house have box trim and I copied it. - Paint scheme is the same. Even with an 8" door header the shorter studs provide plenty of head clearance for my 5'-11" height. Our 6'-4" son in law will have to duck. Even with the shorter wall heights, the shed looks plenty tall but it is attractive. RonB |
#24
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shed design
Looking to build a "small shed" (8x10) to store excess wood/garden
tools. Building codes in most areas allow you to build a shed up to 100 square feet without a building permit (check with your local building department). It's easy to build a shed with 2x4 studs and plywood siding. Since plywood sheets are usually 4' wide, this normally means a shed that is 8x12 (96 sq/ft), with 8' high walls. Note that the actual inside ceiling height is typically a little lower as the plywood siding laps over the floor framing or concrete slab to keep out wind, rain, and bugs. Most of the 8x10 shed designs seem to have 8x12 or 9x12 pitch. I'm thinking of reducing that to 3x12. I built mine with a 6/12 pitch. Lower pitches look kind of odd on a tall shed, and you start having to worry about leaks below 4/12 or so. Anything steeper than 6/12 is hard to walk on safely, making construction and maintenance more difficult. I have some boards I put up to give a sense of the heights that are in the plans I have and to be honest, the heights just looks huge. I want something more discrete and not so noticable. My shed is 8x12, with the 6/12 pitch, making it approximately 10' high at the peak. If it was standing alone out in the open somewhere it may look odd, but situated near our house and trees it looks fine. The eaves of our house are higher than 10' and the ridges are upwards of 18', so the shed size fits nicely. Anthony |
#25
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shed design
Thanks all who responded.
I have a 3 car garage that I'd like to organize and if I can get the wood and garden tools out, that would help a lot. One of the stalls in the garage is my workshop - so I'm not using the shed as a workshop. After I started this thread, the architect who designed our house came by on a unannounced visit. He suggested that I build a small retaining wall (the property is slopped) of about 30 inches, slab it with concrete and then build a 10x12. Of course he would design it for me for $1200 or so. That was funny, I thought! I'm going to hold back a bit and take look around as to where I could stick this shed and not have it be so obtrusive to the property. The property is narrow, long and slopped, which forces the siting of the shed to specific areas. Thanks again! MJ |
#26
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shed design
On 2/20/2011 2:28 PM, wrote:
Thanks all who responded. I have a 3 car garage that I'd like to organize and if I can get the wood and garden tools out, that would help a lot. One of the stalls in the garage is my workshop - so I'm not using the shed as a workshop. Thats good, build the shed and you have two stalls for the workshop. Park the car outside, and you have an ideal size workshop:-) After I started this thread, the architect who designed our house came by on a unannounced visit. He suggested that I build a small retaining wall (the property is slopped) of about 30 inches, slab it with concrete and then build a 10x12. Of course he would design it for me for $1200 or so. That was funny, I thought! Yeah, my shed cost exactly $1200 when I built it, 25 years ago. I knew the local lumber yards put sheds, and everything needed to build them on sale every spring, so I drew everything up in the winter, and bought all the material when it went on sale. Saved a ton of money. I built both my sheds on 6x6 Wolmanized posts. My first shed was not on level ground, so the front posts were short, the back posts were longer:-) -- Jack You Can't Fix Stupid, but You Can Vote it Out! http://jbstein.com |
#27
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shed design
"Jack Stein" wrote Yeah, my shed cost exactly $1200 when I built it, 25 years ago. I knew the local lumber yards put sheds, and everything needed to build them on sale every spring, so I drew everything up in the winter, and bought all the material when it went on sale. Saved a ton of money. I built both my sheds on 6x6 Wolmanized posts. My first shed was not on level ground, so the front posts were short, the back posts were longer:-) Interesting. Around here, if you build it stationary, as is on posts, they add it to your property tax values and it has to have a building permit. If it is on skids, it is not subject to inspections or taxes. Mine is on 4 x 6 skids, then with a couple trailer tie down straps. I use truss to wall connector clips to make sure the skids do not pull loose from the floor when it is moved by dragging it with a chain. -- Jim in NC |
#28
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shed design
On Mon, 21 Feb 2011 21:16:56 -0500, "Morgans"
wrote: "Jack Stein" wrote Yeah, my shed cost exactly $1200 when I built it, 25 years ago. I knew the local lumber yards put sheds, and everything needed to build them on sale every spring, so I drew everything up in the winter, and bought all the material when it went on sale. Saved a ton of money. I built both my sheds on 6x6 Wolmanized posts. My first shed was not on level ground, so the front posts were short, the back posts were longer:-) Interesting. Around here, if you build it stationary, as is on posts, they add it to your property tax values and it has to have a building permit. If it is on skids, it is not subject to inspections or taxes. Mine is on 4 x 6 skids, then with a couple trailer tie down straps. I use truss to wall connector clips to make sure the skids do not pull loose from the floor when it is moved by dragging it with a chain. That's not unique, but I'm sure not universal, either. Some time back a neighbor built a pole barn in his yard. He set it on 6" of gravel and used PT two-bys, raised off the ground, for flooring. As long as it was sitting on the ground, no inspections and no taxes. |
#29
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shed design
On 2/21/2011 9:16 PM, Morgans wrote:
"Jack Stein" wrote Yeah, my shed cost exactly $1200 when I built it, 25 years ago. I knew the local lumber yards put sheds, and everything needed to build them on sale every spring, so I drew everything up in the winter, and bought all the material when it went on sale. Saved a ton of money. I built both my sheds on 6x6 Wolmanized posts. My first shed was not on level ground, so the front posts were short, the back posts were longer:-) Interesting. Around here, if you build it stationary, as is on posts, they add it to your property tax values and it has to have a building permit. If it is on skids, it is not subject to inspections or taxes. Mine is on 4 x 6 skids, then with a couple trailer tie down straps. I use truss to wall connector clips to make sure the skids do not pull loose from the floor when it is moved by dragging it with a chain. Building codes vary from community to community. I can't see me wanting to move my shed anytime, ever, but if I really had to, I could unbolt it from the posts, jack it up, put it on dollies and roll it anywhere. We did that once with a cottage on an island that was a lot bigger than my shed. -- Jack You Can't Fix Stupid, but You Can Vote it Out! http://jbstein.com |
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Shed project: Shearwall design | Home Repair | |||
Large shed design plans anyone? | UK diy | |||
Design for a BIG shed | UK diy | |||
Cabinet, Furniture Design Software, Autodesk QuickCAD v8.0, Punch Software Home Design Architectural Series 18 v6.0, SOLID V3.5 - CABINET VISION, Cabinet Design Centre v7.0 - Cubit, 20-20 Kitchen Design V6.1,Cabinet Vision Solid, Planit Millennium II | Home Ownership |