I am building kitchen cabinets using 3/4" oak plywood. I'm using dado
cuts into the side panels for the shelves. In a magazine i get, it
talks about using a biscuit joiner on cabinets. I've used biscuits to
attach faceframes to the box, but I've never tried using them to
attaches shelves to the side panels. Is this a feasable option? Can
biscuits hold the weight of heavy dishes on shelves? Most of the top
cabinets would probably get three biscuits on each end of the shelf.
If seems that there's not alot of wood to support the weight of the
shelf and the dishes.

Anybody try this before?

Rob

On Oct 22, 7:45*pm, rlz wrote:
I am building kitchen cabinets using 3/4" oak plywood. *I'm using dado
cuts into the side panels for the shelves. *In a magazine i get, it
talks about using a biscuit joiner on cabinets. *I've used biscuits to
attach faceframes to the box, but I've never tried using them to
attaches shelves to the side panels. *Is this a feasable option? *Can
biscuits hold the weight of heavy dishes on shelves? *Most of the top
cabinets would probably get three biscuits on each end of the shelf.
If seems that there's not alot of wood to support the weight of the
shelf and the dishes.

Anybody try this before?

Rob

If you're going to dado the shelves into the gables, there would be no
real reason to use biscuits there....imho.

On 10/22/10 6:52 PM, Robatoy wrote:
On Oct 22, 7:45 pm, wrote:
I am building kitchen cabinets using 3/4" oak plywood. I'm using dado
cuts into the side panels for the shelves. In a magazine i get, it
talks about using a biscuit joiner on cabinets. I've used biscuits to
attach faceframes to the box, but I've never tried using them to
attaches shelves to the side panels. Is this a feasable option? Can
biscuits hold the weight of heavy dishes on shelves? Most of the top
cabinets would probably get three biscuits on each end of the shelf.
If seems that there's not alot of wood to support the weight of the
shelf and the dishes.

Anybody try this before?

Rob

If you're going to dado the shelves into the gables, there would be no
real reason to use biscuits there....imho.


I agree, overkill. Use some pocket holes, too. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Oct 22, 5:52*pm, Robatoy wrote:
On Oct 22, 7:45*pm, rlz wrote:

I am building kitchen cabinets using 3/4" oak plywood. *I'm using dado
cuts into the side panels for the shelves. *In a magazine i get, it
talks about using a biscuit joiner on cabinets. *I've used biscuits to
attach faceframes to the box, but I've never tried using them to
attaches shelves to the side panels. *Is this a feasable option? *Can
biscuits hold the weight of heavy dishes on shelves? *Most of the top
cabinets would probably get three biscuits on each end of the shelf.
If seems that there's not alot of wood to support the weight of the
shelf and the dishes.

Anybody try this before?

Rob

If you're going to dado the shelves into the gables, there would be no
real reason to use biscuits there....imho.

I was thinking of not dadoing the gables and just using biscuits on a
butt jount. Just concerned about the strength of the biscuits.

Rob

On 10/22/10 6:57 PM, rlz wrote:
On Oct 22, 5:52 pm, wrote:
On Oct 22, 7:45 pm, wrote:

I am building kitchen cabinets using 3/4" oak plywood. I'm using dado
cuts into the side panels for the shelves. In a magazine i get, it
talks about using a biscuit joiner on cabinets. I've used biscuits to
attach faceframes to the box, but I've never tried using them to
attaches shelves to the side panels. Is this a feasable option? Can
biscuits hold the weight of heavy dishes on shelves? Most of the top
cabinets would probably get three biscuits on each end of the shelf.
If seems that there's not alot of wood to support the weight of the
shelf and the dishes.

Anybody try this before?

Rob

If you're going to dado the shelves into the gables, there would be no
real reason to use biscuits there....imho.

I was thinking of not dadoing the gables and just using biscuits on a
butt jount. Just concerned about the strength of the biscuits.

Rob

I don't think biscuits were ever intended for support. They can certain
reinforce something like a corner butt joint on a frame, but never
anything like shelves.

Hardwood splines, glued in place would have the strength you're looking
for. However, with plywood, keep in mind that if you put splines in the
center, only half the plies will be holding the weight. Dadoes would be
the simplest and strongest option, imo.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 10/22/2010 6:57 PM, rlz wrote:

I was thinking of not dadoing the gables and just using biscuits on a
butt jount. Just concerned about the strength of the biscuits.

Frameless, or traditional face frame cabinets?

Contrary to conventional wisdom, and providing you use a sufficient
number, say every four evenly spaced biscuits on a 12" deep wall cabinet
with butt jointed shelves, properly glued biscuits will prove plenty
strong enough to support most kitchen cabinet shelf weights.

The question is why?

You will find that adjustable shelves make much more sense. Dadoing your
top and bottom "*floors", and making all intervening shelves adjustable
will give you much more flexibility in cabinet utilization and convenience.

(*in kitchen cabinet parlance, the top and bottom of the cabinet, since
they are usually the same dimension, are generally grouped in your
Cutlist as a "floor')

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Oct 22, 8:47*pm, Swingman wrote:

[snipped for brevity]

You will find that adjustable shelves make much more sense. Dadoing your
top and bottom

'nuff said.

On Fri, 22 Oct 2010 16:57:28 -0700 (PDT), rlz
wrote:

On Oct 22, 5:52*pm, Robatoy wrote:
On Oct 22, 7:45*pm, rlz wrote:

I am building kitchen cabinets using 3/4" oak plywood. *I'm using dado
cuts into the side panels for the shelves. *In a magazine i get, it
talks about using a biscuit joiner on cabinets. *I've used biscuits to
attach faceframes to the box, but I've never tried using them to
attaches shelves to the side panels. *Is this a feasable option? *Can
biscuits hold the weight of heavy dishes on shelves? *Most of the top
cabinets would probably get three biscuits on each end of the shelf.
If seems that there's not alot of wood to support the weight of the
shelf and the dishes.

Anybody try this before?

Rob

If you're going to dado the shelves into the gables, there would be no
real reason to use biscuits there....imho.

I was thinking of not dadoing the gables and just using biscuits on a
butt jount. Just concerned about the strength of the biscuits.

While biscuits are bloody strong, I don't think I'd chance it.

--
I am an old man, but in many senses a very young man.
And this is what I want you to be, young, young all
your life. -- Pablo Casals

"rlz" wrote in message
...
I am building kitchen cabinets using 3/4" oak plywood. I'm using dado
cuts into the side panels for the shelves. In a magazine i get, it
talks about using a biscuit joiner on cabinets. I've used biscuits to
attach faceframes to the box, but I've never tried using them to
attaches shelves to the side panels. Is this a feasable option? Can
biscuits hold the weight of heavy dishes on shelves? Most of the top
cabinets would probably get three biscuits on each end of the shelf.
If seems that there's not alot of wood to support the weight of the
shelf and the dishes.

Anybody try this before?

Rob


I just built a set of cabinets using 3/4" Oak. I prefer having adjustable
shelves so I used these:

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?p...24398&pn=24398

I used pocket holes (and glue) to fasten the face frame to the carcase.
I used dadoes for the bottom shelf (base cabinets) and dadoes for the bottom
of the wall cabinets.
What span for the shelves? I found that 1/2" plywood was adequate for
shelves. I added a strip of 3/4 oak across the front of the shelves but it
was mainly to cover the edge of the plywood. It, of course, strengthened the
shelf as well.

Max

I have a factory manufactured corner cabinet in all oak (inside and out) and
they used these shelf fasteners shown in the link.

One big drawback...How the F&*K do you get the shelves out to adjust them? I
believe I will have to cut the tops off with a utility knife! Once snapped
down the shelves do not seem to be able to snap-back up again.



"Max" wrote in message
eb.com...
I just built a set of cabinets using 3/4" Oak. I prefer having adjustable
shelves so I used these:

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?p...24398&pn=24398

I used pocket holes (and glue) to fasten the face frame to the carcase.
I used dadoes for the bottom shelf (base cabinets) and dadoes for the bottom
of the wall cabinets.
What span for the shelves? I found that 1/2" plywood was adequate for
shelves. I added a strip of 3/4 oak across the front of the shelves but it
was mainly to cover the edge of the plywood. It, of course, strengthened the
shelf as well.

Max

On 10/25/10 8:26 PM, Josepi wrote:
I have a factory manufactured corner cabinet in all oak (inside and out) and
they used these shelf fasteners shown in the link.

One big drawback...How the F&*K do you get the shelves out to adjust them? I
believe I will have to cut the tops off with a utility knife! Once snapped
down the shelves do not seem to be able to snap-back up again.


There is room to push the tab to release the shelf.
Look at the close-up picture. You can see that the piece is molded so
there is room behind the tab to push.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

"-MIKE-" wrote in message
...
On 10/25/10 8:26 PM, Josepi wrote:
I have a factory manufactured corner cabinet in all oak (inside and out)
and
they used these shelf fasteners shown in the link.

One big drawback...How the F&*K do you get the shelves out to adjust
them? I
believe I will have to cut the tops off with a utility knife! Once
snapped
down the shelves do not seem to be able to snap-back up again.


There is room to push the tab to release the shelf.
Look at the close-up picture. You can see that the piece is molded so
there is room behind the tab to push.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply



Right-O!!

Max

Thanks. I will have to give that another try, someday. Trouble is trying to
get five hands into the back of the cabinet through a 12" opening at the
same time...LOL

Maybe one at a time and wedges or screwdrivers. The shelves look pretty
tight in these clips. So far the wife is happy to display what she can get
into it...glass door display unit only, basically.



"-MIKE-" wrote in message
...
There is room to push the tab to release the shelf.
Look at the close-up picture. You can see that the piece is molded so
there is room behind the tab to push.



On 10/25/10 8:26 PM, Josepi wrote:
I have a factory manufactured corner cabinet in all oak (inside and out) and
they used these shelf fasteners shown in the link.


One big drawback...How the F&*K do you get the shelves out to adjust them? I
believe I will have to cut the tops off with a utility knife! Once snapped
down the shelves do not seem to be able to snap-back up again.

--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

"rlz" wrote in message
...
I am building kitchen cabinets using 3/4" oak plywood. I'm using dado
cuts into the side panels for the shelves. In a magazine i get, it
talks about using a biscuit joiner on cabinets. I've used biscuits to
attach faceframes to the box, but I've never tried using them to
attaches shelves to the side panels. Is this a feasable option? Can
biscuits hold the weight of heavy dishes on shelves? Most of the top
cabinets would probably get three biscuits on each end of the shelf.
If seems that there's not alot of wood to support the weight of the
shelf and the dishes.

Anybody try this before?

Rob

I would never build a cabinet with permanent shelves. Put in rows of holes
to install shelf supports. Seems like when shelves are permanent the stuff
you are going to put in is just a little too tall or you need to stack
smaller items. Don't ask how I know this. (grin) WW

On Oct 22, 4:45*pm, rlz wrote:
I am building kitchen cabinets ... using dado
cuts into the side panels for the shelves. *In a magazine i get, it
talks about using a biscuit joiner on cabinets. *I've used biscuits to
attach faceframes to the box, but I've never tried using them to
attaches shelves to the side panels.

I'd say, don't do it. The dado, especially if un-housed, shows only
a horizontal crevice, and crumbs wedged in won't spring the sides
or loosen the shelf. Use the biscuits to make deep shelves of
solid wood (better strength against sagging), instead.

Dado cuts are at least as easy as accurate biscuit placement in
a side panel.

"rlz" wrote in message
...
I am building kitchen cabinets using 3/4" oak plywood. I'm using dado
cuts into the side panels for the shelves. In a magazine i get, it
talks about using a biscuit joiner on cabinets. I've used biscuits to
attach faceframes to the box, but I've never tried using them to
attaches shelves to the side panels. Is this a feasable option? Can
biscuits hold the weight of heavy dishes on shelves? Most of the top
cabinets would probably get three biscuits on each end of the shelf.
If seems that there's not alot of wood to support the weight of the
shelf and the dishes.

Anybody try this before?

Rob


My current kitchen, that I built 20 years ago, I used biscuits to butt joint
shelves inside the cabinets. Still holding up fine.
But if you are going to dado the sides for the shelves to fit into there
would be absolutely no reason to also use biscuits.

On Oct 23, 4:28*pm, "Leon" wrote:
"rlz" wrote in message

...

I am building kitchen cabinets using 3/4" oak plywood. *I'm using dado
cuts into the side panels for the shelves. *In a magazine i get, it
talks about using a biscuit joiner on cabinets. *I've used biscuits to
attach faceframes to the box, but I've never tried using them to
attaches shelves to the side panels. *Is this a feasable option? *Can
biscuits hold the weight of heavy dishes on shelves? *Most of the top
cabinets would probably get three biscuits on each end of the shelf.
If seems that there's not alot of wood to support the weight of the
shelf and the dishes.

Anybody try this before?

Rob

My current kitchen, that I built 20 years ago, I used biscuits to butt joint
shelves inside the cabinets. *Still holding up fine.
But if you are going to dado the sides for the shelves to fit into there
would be absolutely no reason to also use biscuits.

Thanks everyone for the wonderful advice. I'll look into adjustable
shelves instead.

Rob

On Oct 22, 7:45*pm, rlz wrote:
I am building kitchen cabinets using 3/4" oak plywood. *I'm using dado
cuts into the side panels for the shelves. *In a magazine i get, it
talks about using a biscuit joiner on cabinets. *I've used biscuits to
attach faceframes to the box, but I've never tried using them to
attaches shelves to the side panels. *Is this a feasable option? *Can
biscuits hold the weight of heavy dishes on shelves? *Most of the top
cabinets would probably get three biscuits on each end of the shelf.
If seems that there's not alot of wood to support the weight of the
shelf and the dishes.

Anybody try this before?

Rob

Fixing the shelves in position may prove a regrettable decision
sometime down the road.

Instead, drill the inside cabinet walls to accept shelf pegs every X-
inches (look in one of your publications for recommended spacing) and
rest assured that, for all but the widest of cabinets, even MDF
shelves will hold the weight of the dishes and such they are called to
support.

A better use of effort and $$$ might be a design incorporating "pull
out" shelves (especially in "tall" pantry cabinets and base cabinets.

One other suggestion - Pan Drawer base cabinets. My wife loves them.
Large, wide drawers she finds ideal for pots and pans.

One other thought - since only one side of each "end" wall cabinet is
"exposed," why not save a few bucks on the "interior wall cabinets and
ditch the oak in between?

On Oct 22, 7:45*pm, rlz wrote:
I am building kitchen cabinets using 3/4" oak plywood. *I'm using dado
cuts into the side panels for the shelves. *In a magazine i get, it
talks about using a biscuit joiner on cabinets. *I've used biscuits to
attach faceframes to the box, but I've never tried using them to
attaches shelves to the side panels. *Is this a feasable option? *Can
biscuits hold the weight of heavy dishes on shelves? *Most of the top
cabinets would probably get three biscuits on each end of the shelf.
If seems that there's not alot of wood to support the weight of the
shelf and the dishes.

Anybody try this before?

Rob

For fixed shelves in a rigid cabinet, #20 biscuits are going to be
at *least* as strong as 3/16" shelf pins in 3/8" deep holes.

Hi Rob,

I am building kitchen cabinets using 3/4" oak plywood. I'm using dado
cuts into the side panels for the shelves. In a magazine i get, it
talks about using a biscuit joiner on cabinets. I've used biscuits to
attach faceframes to the box, but I've never tried using them to
attaches shelves to the side panels. Is this a feasable option? Can
biscuits hold the weight of heavy dishes on shelves? Most of the top
cabinets would probably get three biscuits on each end of the shelf.
If seems that there's not alot of wood to support the weight of the
shelf and the dishes.

I'm probably going to take heat for this, but I've built dozens of
cabinets for our house, office, garage, and more using simple butt
joints, glue, and finish nails. Once you attach the back and the face
frame, the case is very sturdy. We've loaded up many of our cabinets with
hundreds of pounds of stuff with zero problems.

I usually use 1/4" plywood for the back, inset in a rabbet around the
back edge of the case, glued and nailed in place.

I assemble the face frame with pocket screws, then glue and nail the
frame to the case.

If you're a purist, you could omit the nails and hold everything together
with clamps till the glue dries. But, it's hard to beat the speed and
convenience of an air nailer, even if you do need to fill the holes
later.

As for the internal shelves, I drill 1/4" holes spaced an inch or two
apart (I have a jig from rockler), then use shelf pins to hold the
shelves (I prefer the L-shaped clips rather than the basic posts). This
lets you adjust the shelves up or down as needed to accomodate tall
cereal boxes, pitchers, or whatever.

If you need more adjustability, you could inset metal shelf standards in
rabbets along the insides of the cabinet. I've done this for bookshelves
where the finer adjustment is handy, but it's a lot more work and cost
than I needed for cabinets.

I like to make my bottom shelf flush with the top of the bottom rail of
the face frame. This prevents the annoying lip I have seen on some
commercial cabinets, and it allows space under the cabinet to attach
under-cabinet lights.

I do add a mounting strip along the back bottom of the cabinet, as well
as a mounting strip along the top of the cabinet (inside). This gives
you a little more support for the cabinet as opposed to just screwing
through the 1/4" plywood backing. It you don't want the mounting strip
inside the cabinet, you could use 1/2" plywood for the cabinet back
instead. Either works fine, but it will cost more to use 1/2" plywood for
the backs.

Remember to use long 3" screws into the studs when mounting your
cabinets!

Good luck,

Anthony

On Oct 25, 10:51*am, HerHusband wrote:
[snipped for brevity]

Remember to use long 3" screws into the studs when mounting your
cabinets!

Use 4" when you think there might be a sliding pocket door in behind
the wall where you're hanging your cabinets. G

Remember to use long 3" screws into the studs
when mounting your cabinets!
Use 4" when you think there might be a sliding pocket door in
behind the wall where you're hanging your cabinets. G

Uh, yep, you want to be sure you're not screwing into something you
shouldn't behind the wall (water pipes, electrical wires, ducts, pocket
doors). Ideally, there should be metal protection plates to prevent
screwing into the wires and pipes, but that may not always be the case. So,
do a little research before driving screws "willy-nilly" into the wall.

My point was not to use 3/4" screws into drywall or something. The
strongest cabinets in the world won't be worth a darn if they pull off the
wall when you load them up.

I use 3" deck screws at every stud behind the cabinet, both at the top and
bottom of the cabinet.

Anthony

HerHusband wrote in
:

*snip*


My point was not to use 3/4" screws into drywall or something. The
strongest cabinets in the world won't be worth a darn if they pull off
the wall when you load them up.

I use 3" deck screws at every stud behind the cabinet, both at the top
and bottom of the cabinet.

Anthony


We had that happen with a bathroom cabinet not long ago. The screw, if
it hit the stud at all, was only secured to drywall. I'm surprised it
lasted as long as it did.

Proper length screws in the right place solve all kinds of problems.

Puckdropper
--
Never teach your apprentice everything you know.

On 10/25/2010 6:52 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
wrote in
:

*snip*


My point was not to use 3/4" screws into drywall or something. The
strongest cabinets in the world won't be worth a darn if they pull off
the wall when you load them up.

I use 3" deck screws at every stud behind the cabinet, both at the top
and bottom of the cabinet.

We had that happen with a bathroom cabinet not long ago. The screw, if
it hit the stud at all, was only secured to drywall. I'm surprised it
lasted as long as it did.

Proper length screws in the right place solve all kinds of problems.

For those new to the game of attaching cabinets to stud walls:

If you're going to attach a cabinet to a wall with screws, even if
you're eating your own dog food and not getting paid, but really want to
do it worry free:

Use a box knife to cut out the existing drywall in the obvious
locations, toenail/screw in 2x4/6 blocking between the studs, put the
drywall cutout's back (a quickie 'tape n' float' job is all that is
necessary), then attach cabinet(s) to blocking with the screws where you
want them to be, not where the studs happen to fall.

Adds maybe thirty minutes to the job, and you can sleep for years
without having to once worry that a cabinet, with your good name on it,
is falling off the wall.

Or:

If I can't do it that way, and with small cabinets, like in a bathroom
vanity cabinet, it's French Cleat time ... similar to this (but not in a
bathroom):

http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/DeskCab.jpg

That cabinet took ten minutes to hang from start to finish, been there
almost ten years, and it will be there until I pop off the crown, lift
it off it's mating cleats, remove the few screws holding those to the
studs, and add a wee bit of touchup paint ... and you'll never know it
was there.

All as simple as beveling the bottom of the "tack strips" on the back of
your cabinets on the table saw, then screwing the cut off of that
process to the wall studs as the mating cleats, top and bottom.

And, if you cut the wall piece a few inches shorter than the cabinet is
wide, you can easily center the cabinet perfectly between between
walls/other cabinets.

Elegance in cabinet hanging personified ... FWIW

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On 10/25/2010 9:51 AM, HerHusband wrote:

Remember to use long 3" screws into the studs when mounting your
cabinets!

A good tip when mounting cabinets to the walls these days is to use
"Spax" screws.

These things have an amazing sheer strength and holding power ... much
more than lag screws of the same size, need no pilot hole, have less
tendency to split wood, and self countersink.

Highly recommended for attaching kitchen cabinets to wall studs and
blocking.

Some Borg's even carry them now. And McFeely's is a given.

Downside is the price, but if you want each component in a kitchen job
to do its part in the best possible manner, they're cheap at twice the
price.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On 10/25/10 10:31 AM, Swingman wrote:

A good tip when mounting cabinets to the walls these days is to use
"Spax" screws.


I love those things.
The price isn't that much higher, but the quality is.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply