In article , says...

They do. How many cars have you seen that have cables running to the rear
brake lights?

When you sober up get back to me.

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
in.local...
And that is why all cars have electronic brakes . . .

On 10/15/2010 8:34 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 15 Oct 2010 16:34:51 -0500, Steve Turner
wrote:

On 10/15/2010 1:16 PM, wrote:
It is the only virtually universally implementable retrofit or add-on
solution that does not require custom engineering for every saw it
might possibly be applicable to.

A lot of dreamers on the wreck - but how many implementers?

I have every confidence that I can implement a mechanical solution on my
Unisaw, and believe me, the naysayer attitude of a certain few (ahem) has just
about ticked me off enough to follow through with it. My only problem is
carving out the time to get it done; I have precious little of that these days.

So what's stopping YOU from being an implementer?

Absulutely nothing.
If I feel I need or want something, or some feature on something I
already have, I figure out how to do it and do it.
I decided I wanted an electric car - I built it.
When I was a kid I wanted a stereo record player - I built it.
I decided 10 years ago I wanted to fly - so I'm building an airplane -
and not from a kit - from plans.
I saw a "rhodes car" and figured I could build it better and lighter
for a lot less, so I built it.
Same with a tandem bike.

Good on you. So then when can I expect your implementation of an electronic
brake for my Unisaw? :-)

--
See Nad. See Nad go. Go Nad!
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

On Fri, 15 Oct 2010 21:57:44 -0400, "Josepi"
wrote:

I haven't seen the SawStop demonstrated with a 45 degree tilt cut. Can it
actually tilt? Has anybody actually seen the mechanism under the table?

What happens when the sensitive moisture sensor is full of titanic acid oak
sawdust?


Yes, it CAN tilt and cut a 45 degree cut. And if you cut damp wood, or
let sawdust build up it WILL false trigger - and that gets expensive.
Have one in the woodworking club shop.

I have seen the mechanism (about 3 years ago when they first got it
and it was triggered and needed the shoe replaced)

see:
http://www.sawdustonthefloor.com/wp-...r-Saw-Stop.jpg
http://www.aetherczar.com/wp-content...13983-Fig2.jpg

It is mounted to the yoke assembly, behind the blade, and when it jams
into the blade the blade is pulled down into the table by the blade
inertia (basically it is disconnected from the depth adjustment when
the shoe fires, and the blade inertia sinks the blade)


"J. Clarke" wrote in message
ain.local...
The same place the Sawstop mechanism goes.


In article , says...

Me think we will wait until somebody shows a design drawing of where the
caliper goes when the saw blade tips at a 45 degree cut.

On Fri, 15 Oct 2010 22:29:51 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Fri, 15 Oct 2010 23:50:50 +0100, Stuart
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

That's my point. Nobody else, so far, has addressed how they would
control the application of this "convenience brake", however
implemented. My pushbutton solution was rejected out of hand - but how
would any of the other suggested possibilities be implemented???

OK, here goes:

Pair of AC solenoids, one each side of the blade holding a brake pad away
from the blade, paralleled with feed to motor. When motor is powered
brakes are off, when motor switched off solenoids de-energise and springs
press pads against sides of blade. This is a "convenience" brake, no need
for great forces to be applied. Solenoids mounted on a sliding
arrangement, operated by a lever, which allows them to be moved out of the
way for blade changing.
That would work - assuming there is space to mount it and the
associated bracketry. Mechanically still more complex and therefore
prone to failure.

Generally speaking, an electronic implementation/solution is at least
twice as reliable as a mechanical solution, and the difference
increases as the mechanical complexity increases. More moving parts
means more to fail.

And that is why all cars have electronic brakes . . .

No. but the antilock system is electronic - and it COULD be
mechanical. RR, I believe, had a driveshaft powered hydraulic booster
that reduced braking pressure when the rear wheels locked. The
electronics are more reliable. Same with fuel injection and adjustable
suspension.

On 10/15/2010 9:05 PM, Josepi wrote:
ADHD acting up again, hopper?
Reading comprehension skills a little off?

Oh the irony.

--
See Nad. See Nad go. Go Nad!
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

On 10/15/2010 9:27 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 10/15/10 8:54 PM, Josepi wrote:
If you consider pushing an oak stick into the side of a carbide toothed
blade turning at 4500 PM as safe as pressing a pushbutton on the side of the
table saw you should never have children.


Here it is on video. I should have my testicles revoked.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqFBPAXcX5U

LOL! That's hilarious! :-)

--
"Even if your wife is happy but you're unhappy, you're still happier
than you'd be if you were happy and your wife was unhappy." - Red Green
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

On 10/15/2010 10:23 PM, Josepi wrote:
A pushbutton would still be safer than the possibility of oak rust flying
into your eyes.

"Oak rust"?

--
See Nad. See Nad go. Go Nad!
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

On 10/15/2010 10:46 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 10/15/10 10:33 PM, Josepi wrote:
So you are saying the SawStop is useless and everybody knows it?


Holy cow, I hope you're just messing with us.
Please, for your sake, I hope you're just trying get us riled up.

The guy's half troll, half dumbass, so that *has* to be the explanation...

--
A. Because it makes the discussion harder to read.
Q. Why should I not top-post?
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

On Oct 16, 12:44*am, Steve Turner
wrote:
On 10/15/2010 10:46 PM, -MIKE- wrote:

On 10/15/10 10:33 PM, Josepi wrote:
So you are saying the SawStop is useless and everybody knows it?

Holy cow, I hope you're just messing with us.
Please, for your sake, I hope you're just trying get us riled up.

The guy's half troll, half dumbass, so that *has* to be the explanation....


LOL, you think?

On 10/15/10 11:38 PM, Steve Turner wrote:
On 10/15/2010 10:23 PM, Josepi wrote:
A pushbutton would still be safer than the possibility of oak rust flying
into your eyes.

"Oak rust"?


Every village needs a Dennis. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

In article ,
says...

On Fri, 15 Oct 2010 22:29:51 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Fri, 15 Oct 2010 23:50:50 +0100, Stuart
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

That's my point. Nobody else, so far, has addressed how they would
control the application of this "convenience brake", however
implemented. My pushbutton solution was rejected out of hand - but how
would any of the other suggested possibilities be implemented???

OK, here goes:

Pair of AC solenoids, one each side of the blade holding a brake pad away
from the blade, paralleled with feed to motor. When motor is powered
brakes are off, when motor switched off solenoids de-energise and springs
press pads against sides of blade. This is a "convenience" brake, no need
for great forces to be applied. Solenoids mounted on a sliding
arrangement, operated by a lever, which allows them to be moved out of the
way for blade changing.
That would work - assuming there is space to mount it and the
associated bracketry. Mechanically still more complex and therefore
prone to failure.

Generally speaking, an electronic implementation/solution is at least
twice as reliable as a mechanical solution, and the difference
increases as the mechanical complexity increases. More moving parts
means more to fail.

And that is why all cars have electronic brakes . . .

No. but the antilock system is electronic - and it COULD be
mechanical.

My Lincoln has mechanical antiskid. Electronic is cheaper.

RR, I believe, had a driveshaft powered hydraulic booster
that reduced braking pressure when the rear wheels locked. The
electronics are more reliable. Same with fuel injection and adjustable
suspension.

So how do you make a mechanical system that can consider oxygen levels
in the exhaust.

wrote:

Either way, electrical application is the simplest, cheapest
alternative (compared to hydraulic, mechanical, pneumatic, or
percussive application) - and if you are going to use electical or
electronic controls anyway, why not use electrical braking all the
way?

That's my point. Nobody else, so far, has addressed how they would
control the application of this "convenience brake", however
implemented. My pushbutton solution was rejected out of hand - but how
would any of the other suggested possibilities be implemented???


Well, I have agreed (but you may have missed), that the caliper may not be
the most elegant solution. As for this thread and the discussions about
calipers for this application - mostly idle mental masterbation in my
opinion. Sometimes dabbling with an idea doesn't need to be more than just
that.

--

-Mike-

In article ,
-MIKE- wrote:

I knew *he* would, but I didn't think anyone else would jump in.
Have you read the thread up until this point, or even a couple posts
preceding?

Just fulfilling your wish :-)

wrote:
On Fri, 15 Oct 2010 12:54:44 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:



You are correct that disk brakes have been around a lot longer than
ABS has, but if you believe that disk brakes will not lock up then
you simply need to drive a car that pre-dates ABS. Disk brakes will
most certainly lock up. Why do you think ABS exists?

Because most drivers don't (according to our governments and highway
safety people) have the brains to release their brakes when the wheels
start to slide.

Well come on now and at least try to be fair. How could you expect today's
drivers to focus on both braking technique and texting at the same time, and
do either well? I think some study by some leading university has shown
that pumping brakes while texting results in missed letters in messages.
Can't have that now...

--

-Mike-

-MIKE- wrote:
On 10/15/10 8:54 PM, Josepi wrote:
If you consider pushing an oak stick into the side of a carbide
toothed blade turning at 4500 PM as safe as pressing a pushbutton on
the side of the table saw you should never have children.


Here it is on video. I should have my testicles revoked.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqFBPAXcX5U

You asshole! You had me on the edge of the toilet seat in near stark terror
throughout the entire video. But that closing comment still gets me
chuckling...

--

-Mike-

On Fri, 15 Oct 2010 21:57:44 -0400, "Josepi"
wrote:

I haven't seen the SawStop demonstrated with a 45 degree tilt cut. Can it
actually tilt? Has anybody actually seen the mechanism under the table?

What happens when the sensitive moisture sensor is full of titanic acid oak
sawdust?


Yes, it CAN tilt and cut a 45 degree cut. And if you cut damp wood, or
let sawdust build up it WILL false trigger - and that gets expensive.
Have one in the woodworking club shop.

I have seen the mechanism (about 3 years ago when they first got it
and it was triggered and needed the shoe replaced)

see:
http://www.sawdustonthefloor.com/wp-...r-Saw-Stop.jpg
http://www.aetherczar.com/wp-content...13983-Fig2.jpg

It is mounted to the yoke assembly, behind the blade, and when it jams
into the blade the blade is pulled down into the table by the blade
inertia (basically it is disconnected from the depth adjustment when
the shoe fires, and the blade inertia sinks the blade)


"J. Clarke" wrote in message
ain.local...
The same place the Sawstop mechanism goes.


In article , says...

Me think we will wait until somebody shows a design drawing of where the
caliper goes when the saw blade tips at a 45 degree cut.

On Fri, 15 Oct 2010 23:26:53 -0500, Steve Turner
wrote:

On 10/15/2010 8:34 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 15 Oct 2010 16:34:51 -0500, Steve Turner
wrote:

On 10/15/2010 1:16 PM, wrote:
It is the only virtually universally implementable retrofit or add-on
solution that does not require custom engineering for every saw it
might possibly be applicable to.

A lot of dreamers on the wreck - but how many implementers?

I have every confidence that I can implement a mechanical solution on my
Unisaw, and believe me, the naysayer attitude of a certain few (ahem) has just
about ticked me off enough to follow through with it. My only problem is
carving out the time to get it done; I have precious little of that these days.

So what's stopping YOU from being an implementer?

Absulutely nothing.
If I feel I need or want something, or some feature on something I
already have, I figure out how to do it and do it.
I decided I wanted an electric car - I built it.
When I was a kid I wanted a stereo record player - I built it.
I decided 10 years ago I wanted to fly - so I'm building an airplane -
and not from a kit - from plans.
I saw a "rhodes car" and figured I could build it better and lighter
for a lot less, so I built it.
Same with a tandem bike.

Good on you. So then when can I expect your implementation of an electronic
brake for my Unisaw? :-)
If I had a unisaw I'd likely have it implemented by now - but I
don't.

On Sat, 16 Oct 2010 01:35:26 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Fri, 15 Oct 2010 22:29:51 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Fri, 15 Oct 2010 23:50:50 +0100, Stuart
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

That's my point. Nobody else, so far, has addressed how they would
control the application of this "convenience brake", however
implemented. My pushbutton solution was rejected out of hand - but how
would any of the other suggested possibilities be implemented???

OK, here goes:

Pair of AC solenoids, one each side of the blade holding a brake pad away
from the blade, paralleled with feed to motor. When motor is powered
brakes are off, when motor switched off solenoids de-energise and springs
press pads against sides of blade. This is a "convenience" brake, no need
for great forces to be applied. Solenoids mounted on a sliding
arrangement, operated by a lever, which allows them to be moved out of the
way for blade changing.
That would work - assuming there is space to mount it and the
associated bracketry. Mechanically still more complex and therefore
prone to failure.

Generally speaking, an electronic implementation/solution is at least
twice as reliable as a mechanical solution, and the difference
increases as the mechanical complexity increases. More moving parts
means more to fail.

And that is why all cars have electronic brakes . . .

No. but the antilock system is electronic - and it COULD be
mechanical.

My Lincoln has mechanical antiskid. Electronic is cheaper.

RR, I believe, had a driveshaft powered hydraulic booster
that reduced braking pressure when the rear wheels locked. The
electronics are more reliable. Same with fuel injection and adjustable
suspension.

So how do you make a mechanical system that can consider oxygen levels
in the exhaust.

Not imperitive for a fuel injection system - only for a polution
control system.

On Sat, 16 Oct 2010 03:40:59 +0000 (UTC),
(Larry W) wrote:

In article ,
wrote:
...snipped...
Generally speaking, an electronic implementation/solution is at least
twice as reliable as a mechanical solution, and the difference
increases as the mechanical complexity increases. More moving parts
means more to fail.

Then why don't we have automotive brakes that work that way?


Electronic braking IS employed on virtually all electric and hybrid
vehicles - and virtually NO motor vehicle on the road today uses
"mechanical" brakes - since hydraulics, having fewer moving parts,
meet the requirement and are much more reliable than the mechanicals.

In article ,
says...

On Sat, 16 Oct 2010 03:40:59 +0000 (UTC),
(Larry W) wrote:

In article ,
wrote:
...snipped...
Generally speaking, an electronic implementation/solution is at least
twice as reliable as a mechanical solution, and the difference
increases as the mechanical complexity increases. More moving parts
means more to fail.

Then why don't we have automotive brakes that work that way?


Electronic braking IS employed on virtually all electric and hybrid
vehicles - and virtually NO motor vehicle on the road today uses
"mechanical" brakes - since hydraulics, having fewer moving parts,
meet the requirement and are much more reliable than the mechanicals.

Your distinction between "mechanical" and "hydraulic" is a clear attempt
at shifting the discussion. And your mentioning it so late suggests
that you yourself are just parroting what someone else told you.

As for electric and hybrid vehicles having "electronic brakes", they
have regenerative braking systems, just as trolleys and electric
locomotives have had for decades, but those are not substitutes for the
conventional brake.

On 10/16/10 8:11 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 10/15/10 8:54 PM, Josepi wrote:
If you consider pushing an oak stick into the side of a carbide
toothed blade turning at 4500 PM as safe as pressing a pushbutton on
the side of the table saw you should never have children.


Here it is on video. I should have my testicles revoked.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqFBPAXcX5U

You asshole! You had me on the edge of the toilet seat in near stark terror
throughout the entire video. But that closing comment still gets me
chuckling...


I forgot the disclaimer. :-p


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

In article , wrote:
On 10/15/10 10:33 PM, Josepi wrote:
So you are saying the SawStop is useless and everybody knows it?


Holy cow, I hope you're just messing with us.
Please, for your sake, I hope you're just trying get us riled up.
..
You must be new here. Of course he is. "Josepi" is just our latest troll. Stop
feeding him, and he'll go away eventually

In article , Steve Turner wrote:
On 10/15/2010 10:23 PM, Josepi wrote:
A pushbutton would still be safer than the possibility of oak rust flying
into your eyes.

"Oak rust"?

There's clearly a village somewhere in Canada that's missing its idiot.

On 10/16/10 12:09 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
In , wrote:
On 10/15/10 10:33 PM, Josepi wrote:
So you are saying the SawStop is useless and everybody knows it?


Holy cow, I hope you're just messing with us.
Please, for your sake, I hope you're just trying get us riled up.
.
You must be new here. Of course he is. "Josepi" is just our latest troll. Stop
feeding him, and he'll go away eventually


Hardly new, but sometimes it's just too fun.
I still remember the go-around I had with him about how a nail gun can
kill a man from a quarter mile. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Sat, 16 Oct 2010 12:10:40 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Sat, 16 Oct 2010 03:40:59 +0000 (UTC),
(Larry W) wrote:

In article ,
wrote:
...snipped...
Generally speaking, an electronic implementation/solution is at least
twice as reliable as a mechanical solution, and the difference
increases as the mechanical complexity increases. More moving parts
means more to fail.

Then why don't we have automotive brakes that work that way?


Electronic braking IS employed on virtually all electric and hybrid
vehicles - and virtually NO motor vehicle on the road today uses
"mechanical" brakes - since hydraulics, having fewer moving parts,
meet the requirement and are much more reliable than the mechanicals.

Your distinction between "mechanical" and "hydraulic" is a clear attempt
at shifting the discussion. And your mentioning it so late suggests
that you yourself are just parroting what someone else told you.

No, and I, unlike the vast majority of you guys, have actually driven
cars with true mechanical brakes.
cable only on the '49 VeeDub and rod brakes on the Chevie.

As for electric and hybrid vehicles having "electronic brakes", they
have regenerative braking systems, just as trolleys and electric
locomotives have had for decades, but those are not substitutes for the
conventional brake.

No, but they do roughly 80% of the job.

Another reado.

I have not idea where the trollers see I stated it was dangerous. I would do
it too.



"-MIKE-" wrote in message
...
I know that an electronic or mechanical technically be "safer," not to
mention more convenient. No one ever argued that it's a better
alternative. I only brought it up to show how easily a blade can be
stopped with very little pressure to one side of the blade.

I just thought it was laughable that you think it's somehow dangerous.


On 10/15/10 10:23 PM, Josepi wrote:
A pushbutton would still be safer than the possibility of oak rust flying
into your eyes.



--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Forget it! The name calling has started indicating no more discussion or
open minds...LOL


wrote in message
...
If you have a "start" and a "stop" button, generally there is a
contactor OR a solid state relay somewhere on the unit.
There are exceptions - mechanical switch controlled by 2 mechanical
linkages instead of a toggle switch
A contactor can be latching, or not latching. Latching contactors use
a start and stop putton. Non latching contactors are just relays that
take the load off the switch. Your dust collector is likely the
latter.
You can tell if you have a latching contactor by unplugging the saw
with it turned on. If it restarts when you plug it back in it's not a
latching contactor.

Yup, Just returning the absolute garnage I got from the trolling crowd that
has a hard time reading.

It happens to all of us from time to time.


"-MIKE-" wrote in message
...
Holy cow, I hope you're just messing with us.
Please, for your sake, I hope you're just trying get us riled up.




On 10/15/10 10:33 PM, Josepi wrote:
So you are saying the SawStop is useless and everybody knows it?



--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Yup, some of you just can't stop trolling with your garbage. Very hard for
anybody to take you serious after the gabage spewed.


If the shoe fits?


"-MIKE-" wrote in message
...

Hardly new, but sometimes it's just too fun.
I still remember the go-around I had with him about how a nail gun can
kill a man from a quarter mile. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 10/16/10 1:43 PM, Josepi wrote:
Yup, some of you just can't stop trolling with your garbage. Very hard for
anybody to take you serious after the gabage spewed.


If it makes you feel better to blame all your problems on everyone else,
good for you.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

In article ocal,
J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Sat, 16 Oct 2010 03:40:59 +0000 (UTC),
(Larry W) wrote:

In article ,
wrote:
...snipped...
Generally speaking, an electronic implementation/solution is at least
twice as reliable as a mechanical solution, and the difference
increases as the mechanical complexity increases. More moving parts
means more to fail.

Then why don't we have automotive brakes that work that way?


Electronic braking IS employed on virtually all electric and hybrid
vehicles - and virtually NO motor vehicle on the road today uses
"mechanical" brakes - since hydraulics, having fewer moving parts,
meet the requirement and are much more reliable than the mechanicals.

Your distinction between "mechanical" and "hydraulic" is a clear attempt
at shifting the discussion. And your mentioning it so late suggests
that you yourself are just parroting what someone else told you.

As for electric and hybrid vehicles having "electronic brakes", they
have regenerative braking systems, just as trolleys and electric
locomotives have had for decades, but those are not substitutes for the
conventional brake.



In the context of this discussion, an automotive style disc brake caliper
is being considered as a means of stopping a table saw blade. Clearly,
hydraulics are involved. YOU are the one, who within that context, made
the comparison of reliability between mechanical and electronic systems.
Now it appears that YOU are making a distinction between hydraulic and
mechanical so that the scarcity of electronically actuated automotive
brakes does not conflict with your earlier assertion.

By the way, by most measures, it would be a stretch to call the earliest
examples of regenrative braking "electronic"


--
When the game is over, the pawn and the king are returned to the same box.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar.org

On Thu, 14 Oct 2010 09:27:45 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Thu, 14 Oct 2010 08:50:21 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:


As a guy who has done all of his own vehicle maintenance for 40
years now, I have to ask what you observed in your experiences, that
causes you to make this statement? I don't know if the brake
caliper idea is the most elegant solution, but I sure can't see
anything in what you are saying that would suggest it is not a
workable solution.

Suitable placement of an air nozzle tube to clear the caliper frame
every hour or so would go far into making this device work for more
than an hour. You'd have to keep the sawdust from piercing the seals
and/or building up on the frame

Not at all Larry, if you consider what a normal brake caliper in an
automobile is subject to. In comparison, the environment inside a table saw
would be a walk in the part of a caliper.

I heartily disagree. The only solid ever thrown up at a brake caliper
in any quantity is water, and that runs right off. Sawdust would tend
to stick, especially in the inverted configuration it would have on a
table saw. 'Twould be especially bad with folks who "do Jummywood."

Go ahead and prove me wrong, Mike. Mount one and see. I double dare
ya!

--
Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball!

On Thu, 14 Oct 2010 15:05:50 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 10/14/10 2:24 PM, wrote:

How? Really. :-)
You NEVER put side loads on a saw blade , particularly when running
at speed.

1. It wouldn't be running.
2. What I'm talking about could hardly be considered a load.

Mike, typical caliper pads are unloaded by the play in the wheel
bearings and a bit of runout on the disc. Unless you have some wobble
in the blade, the pads will continue to drag on the blade. Just one
more thing to work out. Build self-retracting pad retractors and...
You'll be rich!

--
Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball!

On Fri, 15 Oct 2010 11:54:46 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 14 Oct 2010 22:06:25 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

Scott Lurndal wrote:


On the other hand, disc brakes are designed so they don't lock up,
this includes the materials used as well plus the modern ABS
electronics.


No they aren't. ABS systems are designed to prevent the wheel from locking
up, but disk brakes aren't. In fact, quite the opposite, they are designed
to lock up but rely upon the ABS to govern them so they don't.
Not true. Drum brakes are much more powerfull on the first
application,

False.


and more likely to lock up due to their self-energizing
servo action (virtually every drum brake on a vehicle in the last 40
years)

True.


The only advantage of disks is faster cooling and less fade.

The main advantage is efficiency. For a given poundage and square inch
of pad, they're better than drums. Ask any Viper/Carerra/Corvette
driver or motorcycle rider if they want to regress to drums. You'll
be run out of town on a rail.

One article.
http://www.edmunds.com/ownership/tec...7/article.html


LJ --"retired" mechanic whose Tundra (4-wheel disc brakes) will stop
on a dime...and give change.

--
Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball!

On Fri, 15 Oct 2010 13:47:20 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 15 Oct 2010 12:54:44 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

Josepi wrote:

Disc brake were around for a lot longer than the ABS systems were ever
implemented.
Disc brakes were not sdesigned to "lock up" but rather be more linear
than shoe brake systems, and fade less.


You are correct that disk brakes have been around a lot longer than ABS has,
but if you believe that disk brakes will not lock up then you simply need to
drive a car that pre-dates ABS. Disk brakes will most certainly lock up.
Why do you think ABS exists?
Because most drivers don't (according to our governments and highway
safety people) have the brains to release their brakes when the wheels
start to slide.

Most drivers don't know how to _steer_ a car, let alone -drive- one.

--
Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball!

On Fri, 15 Oct 2010 11:16:56 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
wrote:

On Oct 15, 1:31*pm, "Josepi" wrote:
Sorry you asre twisting words and playing with semantics.

Brake lock-up is not when the wheel stops turning. It is when the brakes
will not let go and cease to act linearly.

ABS was not created for brake lock-up. ABS would not help this problem.


You are completely and totally wrong and incorrect.

ABS, by definition, stands for Anti-lock Braking System. Now apply
this little bit of knowledge to your position, and you will see that
you are wrong, incorrect and mistaken.
Brake lock-up is lock-up caused by a brake, NOT a brake locking up.
ABS does not stand for Anti Brake Locking Up System.
With me yet?

Also, when you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.

PDFTFT

--
Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball!

In article ,
says...

In article ocal,
J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Sat, 16 Oct 2010 03:40:59 +0000 (UTC),
(Larry W) wrote:

In article ,
wrote:
...snipped...
Generally speaking, an electronic implementation/solution is at least
twice as reliable as a mechanical solution, and the difference
increases as the mechanical complexity increases. More moving parts
means more to fail.

Then why don't we have automotive brakes that work that way?


Electronic braking IS employed on virtually all electric and hybrid
vehicles - and virtually NO motor vehicle on the road today uses
"mechanical" brakes - since hydraulics, having fewer moving parts,
meet the requirement and are much more reliable than the mechanicals.

Your distinction between "mechanical" and "hydraulic" is a clear attempt
at shifting the discussion. And your mentioning it so late suggests
that you yourself are just parroting what someone else told you.

As for electric and hybrid vehicles having "electronic brakes", they
have regenerative braking systems, just as trolleys and electric
locomotives have had for decades, but those are not substitutes for the
conventional brake.



In the context of this discussion, an automotive style disc brake caliper
is being considered as a means of stopping a table saw blade. Clearly,
hydraulics are involved. YOU are the one, who within that context, made
the comparison of reliability between mechanical and electronic systems.
Now it appears that YOU are making a distinction between hydraulic and
mechanical so that the scarcity of electronically actuated automotive
brakes does not conflict with your earlier assertion.

By the way, by most measures, it would be a stretch to call the earliest
examples of regenrative braking "electronic"

Larry, be careful with your attributions. You are replying to one of
jclarke's posts but contesting points raised by clare@snyder as if they
were raised by jclarke.

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Fri, 15 Oct 2010 13:47:20 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 15 Oct 2010 12:54:44 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

Josepi wrote:

Disc brake were around for a lot longer than the ABS systems were ever
implemented.
Disc brakes were not sdesigned to "lock up" but rather be more linear
than shoe brake systems, and fade less.


You are correct that disk brakes have been around a lot longer than ABS has,
but if you believe that disk brakes will not lock up then you simply need to
drive a car that pre-dates ABS. Disk brakes will most certainly lock up.
Why do you think ABS exists?
Because most drivers don't (according to our governments and highway
safety people) have the brains to release their brakes when the wheels
start to slide.

Most drivers don't know how to _steer_ a car, let alone -drive- one.

Well, it's hard for folks to talk on the cell phone and text and adjust
the radio, as well as drive, all at the same time... Maybe your
expectations are too high? Can you grade on a curve? : )

Bill

On Sat, 16 Oct 2010 17:03:40 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Fri, 15 Oct 2010 11:54:46 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 14 Oct 2010 22:06:25 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

Scott Lurndal wrote:


On the other hand, disc brakes are designed so they don't lock up,
this includes the materials used as well plus the modern ABS
electronics.


No they aren't. ABS systems are designed to prevent the wheel from locking
up, but disk brakes aren't. In fact, quite the opposite, they are designed
to lock up but rely upon the ABS to govern them so they don't.
Not true. Drum brakes are much more powerfull on the first
application,

False.
It has been proven over and over. They have, generally, more than
twice the friction area of a disk brake of the same diameter, and
being self energizing require much less pedal effort. Drum brakes do
not REQUIRE power boosters, while disk brakes, generally, are pittiful
without them. I'll put a 10 1/2 X2 1/2 drum brake up against an 11
inch disk any day of the week for a cold stop. and beat it hands down.
After 2 60mph stops within about 1 1/2 - 2 minutes the disk brake will
start gaining. By the third stop within 2 minutes it will be
outstopping the drum brake on a good day.
3 hard stops in a row will make the disks shine (and mabee even glow)


and more likely to lock up due to their self-energizing
servo action (virtually every drum brake on a vehicle in the last 40
years)

True.


The only advantage of disks is faster cooling and less fade.

The main advantage is efficiency. For a given poundage and square inch
of pad, they're better than drums.


NOT when cold. Most disk brakes are actually pretty inneffective
before they get warmed up and they definitely require higher hydraulic
pressure to work, period.
Ask any Viper/Carerra/Corvette
driver or motorcycle rider if they want to regress to drums. You'll
be run out of town on a rail.

like I said - the drum will outstop the disk for the FIRST STOP.
Unless that stop is from 100mph or with an overloaded vehicle.
Second stop is anyone's guess - depending on the severity of the stop.

One article.
http://www.edmunds.com/ownership/tec...7/article.html


LJ --"retired" mechanic whose Tundra (4-wheel disc brakes) will stop
on a dime...and give change.

On Sat, 16 Oct 2010 16:47:14 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Thu, 14 Oct 2010 15:05:50 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 10/14/10 2:24 PM, wrote:

How? Really. :-)
You NEVER put side loads on a saw blade , particularly when running
at speed.

1. It wouldn't be running.
2. What I'm talking about could hardly be considered a load.

Mike, typical caliper pads are unloaded by the play in the wheel
bearings and a bit of runout on the disc. Unless you have some wobble
in the blade, the pads will continue to drag on the blade. Just one
more thing to work out. Build self-retracting pad retractors and...
You'll be rich!
The design of a hydraulic brake caliper IS self retracting - based on
the flex in the square section "O" rings that seal the piston in the
bore.